The TZ has the most idiotic internal hardware design!

OK. Took the plunge here in Hong Kong and bought the TZ90HS with 32GB SSD and DVDRW DL (Carbon), together with the 4965ABGN. Boy, am I disappointed!

Yes the external design is nice, and the machine is light. I had the TX17 and SZ48GN before that and I was pretty satisfied. However, the TZ baffles me in terms of internal hardware design!

First and foremost: WHY DOES THE INTERNAL DVD A USB DVD DRIVE? The ICH7 has 1 ATA channel which can probably accomodate 2 ATA devices, and also has SATA. Why does Sony have to do the idiotic thing and put DVD on USB? They can do much better than that!

Second and even more idiotic: WHY IS THE EXPRESSCARD INTERFACE ROUTED THRU USB on the ICH7? I found this via the Vista Device Manager and showing devices by connection. I don't think that it is simply showing up in the wrong place there as my Sandisk 32GB Expresscard flash is performing at a snail pace with the machine.......

Third: Either Sony or Intel (Probably both) will really have to get their acts together. I opted for the model with 100M LAN and a Wireless-N (Draft1) card as I have several Wireless-N APs (Linksys and Netgears, haven't tried dlinks yet). And the 4965ABGN WILL NOT CONNECT IN Wireless-N mode! I have tried setting the wireless APs to Wireless-N only and drop the security and the TZ90 will not even detect the network, and this is the same with both Linksys WRT350N and the Netgear WNR-854T. And the wireless reception for the B/G is miserable!

Man am I disappointed. Seriously considering trading up to a Fujitsu/Toshiba and god forbid..... ASUS or DELL......

 

Um, I was thinking in the future of beingl able to boot of a flash expresscard, does this mean that istn't a realistic option?

 

Haven't tried. But given the fact that it is hanging off the USB2.0 controller, probably will be really slow compared to the internal SSD.

 

ExpressCard SSD will always be slower then SATA/PATA SSD the interface just doesn't have the same throughput.

Stefan

 

What I meant is on the TZ is even worse because it is hanging off the USB2.0 controller instead of hanging off directly from the ICH7/PCI/PCIe bus.....

 

USB throughput is about 60MB/s; ExpressCard SSD is rated at about 15-20MB/s nowhere near the relative throughput of USB.

 

Don't forget that USB bandwidth is shared.......

 

I would be MORE disappointed in myself for not doing the research before buying if it was so important.

 

Thanks for rubbing it in.....

 

hrmmm that's bad news if the expresscard is routed through USB...

that would probably also imply it wouldn't be able to handle ASUS' XG Station.. very bad news.

by the way, mlai, you said you bought the TZ90.... so you imported it from japan instead of ordering it in HK? which company did you order it from?

 

Can you please send a link to a site that sells a Sandisk 32GB Expresscard SSD? I know that Transcend and Lexar among others sell Expresscard SSDs, but I didn't know Sandisk had an Expresscard SSD in their portfolio :confused2: - only fixed SSDs. I have also looked on their website - can't find any info.

Also if possible, please send benchmark scores of your Sandisk SSD.

 

does the TZ even have a PCIe controller? doesn't seem like any of its features use it...

 

another disappointing owners of the TZ... lol. I believe he means Transend because I remember seeing from other forum that he corrected himself as the SSD is really made by Transend.

 

I thought MLai was the only one unhappy with the TZ?

 

As far as I knew the express card is suppose to be connected on PCIe which is the major part to change over from PCMCIA whos connected in PCI lanes. This would mean a big performance loss depending on what you stick in the pc-express slot, even worse then the correctly implemented PCMCIA specification.

How idiotic is right.

 

I looked over the specification documented by PCMCIA for the new ExpressCard interface, and it states that for expresscard compliance, the host must support data transfer through both the PCIe and USB buses. Which bus to use, or both, would depend on the specific card that's inserted. Both should be supported by specs, but some manufacturers have created USB-only expresscard modules which limits the bandwidth of the module to 480Mbps, or around 5 times slower than if it was routed through the PCIex1 bus.

Hopefully the TZ has expresscard compliance so it supports data transfer over both PCIe and USB buses.

 

Can anyone confirm the transfer capability of the Expresscard interface on the TZ? I'm planning to buy a SSD Expresscard as well for when I get the TZ so I am very curious about this one.

 

There are no ExpressCard SSDs which connect through PCIe available at this time. All available ExpressCard SSDs use the USB link and are slow. Sandisk and Sony announced a very fast ExpressCard Flash Memory named SXS which is the first to use the PCIe link. According to the specification, data rates at 100 MBytes/s can be reached. This new ExpressCard Flash Memories will be available later 2007. So the reason why Mlai is getting such slow data rates is simply because his SSD is slow and only uses the USB link. There is no problem with the TZ here.

Also the reason why sony connected the DVD-Drive via USB is because this way it can be powered off when not in use to save battery. USB is plug and play while ATA is not. I dont see why this should be a disadvantage? The USB link is fast enough for that drive. I think it is a very nice feature when the drive switches itself off automatically in Battery mode when there is no Disk inside..

 

Thanks for clearing this up. I didn't know that the Expresscards themselves could choose whether they should connect via USB or PCI, but I believe you

 

A relief here as well. Thanks much.

 

Sony's drivers have the ability to power off the IDE DVD drive in the TX as well when on battery, so that isn't really an advantage of putting on the USB.

 

so hang on, is this mean that 1.8"SSD is better than Expresscard, right?

BTW, What brand did Sony insert for 1.8 inch SSD ?
I read that there are several performance differences between brands, etc.
Anyone found this out?

 

Samsung is the SSD OEM.

 

1,8" 32GB (29-30 GB formatted) Samsung MCBOE32GQAPQ-MWA

http://dsm-corp.com/tz90/IMG_4332.JPG

HD Tune benchmark of Samsung MCBOE32GQAPQ-MWA:

http://www.technologyguide.com/assets/X-20070621101635562642.jpg

The 1,8" 32GB SSD from Samsung (with 35 MB/s average transfer rate) is definitely somewhat slower than a normal 2,5" 32GB SSD which is able to reach up to 50MB/s transfer rate.

 

Wow.... Thanks....

damn... is that mean 1.8 SSD is better than 1.8 HDD, but not soo much better than just 2.5-7200RPM HDD...???

 

Yes.

HD Tune benchmark of Samsung MCBOE32GQAPQ-MWA SSD:

http://www.technologyguide.com/assets/X-20070621101635562642.jpg

HD Tune benchmark of Toshiba MK1011GAH (this is the 100GB 1,8" 4200rpm HDD Sony uses for the TZ90):

http://www.notebookcheck.com/index....| </a>';&md5=3d3fa6b416a8d0fb7a0247f90ed968b9

The access time (time to find and access a file) of the 1,8" 32GB SSD will be much better compared to any 2,5" HDD (0,5 ms SSD to 15-20ms HDD)... but if a 2,5" HDD has a much higher transfer rate it will catch up and "overtake" the SSD very soon.

But 36 MB/s average transfer rate for the 1,8" SSD is not that bad. The Seagate Momentus 7200.2 (2,5" 160GB 7200rpm) has an average transfer rate of 46 MB/s (only 10 MB/s faster than the 1,8" SSD).


BTW: the 2,5" 160GB 5400rpm HDD Sony uses for the TZ90 is Toshiba MK1637GSX (with an average transfer rate of 36,5 MB/s and access time of 17ms).

 

The standard 2.5" (Tosh) drive in my TZ90 was OK. I swapped it out for a 7K200 drive that just smokes. Take a look at the HD Tune benchmark below. BTW, the 7K200 blows the Seagate 7200.2 out of the water.

 

duffyanneal: Does warranty is cancelled when you change HDD ? Is it very hard ?

I have one from PriceJapan.

 

Indeed! I thought the Seagate 7200.2 is still the fastest 2,5" HDD available... but it isn't anymore. Good to know.

 

It is not easy to change the hard drive. I wouldn't suggest it for a novice.

Warranty?? What they don't know won't hurt them.

 

Thank you Bonk and Duffy.

One more question,,,, perhaps.. erm maybe later when 1.8" get cheap and better, I might change , hehe.

BTW, is that 1.8 Samsung SSD is the 'fastest' one currently out?

Also, I was amazed by, how fast (transfer-rate) 7200 HDD 2.5inch hdd are....
But still, I guess when it comes to OS loading, app running, SSD will kick any spindle-hdd's due to the Access time.

 

BTW, is that 1.8 Samsung SSD is the 'fastest' one currently out?

I believe there are faster SSDs but I'm not sure if one is available that will fit the TZ.

But still, I guess when it comes to OS loading, app running, SSD will kick any spindle-hdd's due to the Access time.

It depends on how the data is layed out. If the boot data is layed out sequentially the HDD will be faster. It's small random data access that the SSD is champ at. On large sequential data the HDD is king. The best advice is to keep the HDD defragmented for best performance.