Vaio VPC-Z1 (HDD option): Custom RAID Thoughts

I've got the HDD option, which replaces the optical drive with a normal HDD, and doesn't come with proprietary Sony SSDs. I've been thinking about and testing RAID configurations, and this thread is meant to gather some thoughts on that. At some level it's probably easier to go the Sony SSD route, but... I prefer something else

There are two parts: (1) external RAID, (2) internal RAID.

Part 1: External RAID

I went down this path because I believed that there's only one SATA port offered by the HDD-option. From Intel ( http://www3.intel.com/design/chipsets/matrixstorage_sb.htm), it appears that the port multiplier functionality is not implemented in the ICH8, which is what the Z1 comes with. This means we can't get two or more drives to logically share the same SATA port, which means that they have to appear as one logical device, which in turn means that some sort of external RAID/BIG hardware is needed.

I tried a number of hardware RAID solutions. The first was the Silicon Image SiI 4726, in a mini-board with a form between the 2.5" and 1.8" drives. Unfortunately, after configuration on a (old) desktop, the chip offers only its admin drive ("Config") to the bios and Windows, rendering it impossible to boot off of.

Since I apparently have poor Googling skills, I next found that the current generation of Silicon Image RAID chips may resolve this issue. I got the SiI 5744 board in a form slightly smaller than the 4726 board, and tested that. It supports both hardware and software configuration:



So it's as simple as turning the switch to, say, "Fast", then depressing the "Change Mode". No software configuration or initialization (though that is also support via the "GUI" option). Using this chip, the entire virtual drive shows up in the desktop's BIOS (the virtual drive is in BIG mode, with an Intel X25-M 80G and a 160G HDD, hence a total size of 240G) :



I took the Z apart, and placed the external RAID and the 2.5" Intel drive in the optical drive spot, to get a sense of the dimensions involved:



Note that I don't have the WWAN card, hence there's some additional space at the top. It certainly looks like a 1.8" drive (stripped) would be a better choice. And I also confirmed that the SiI 5744 board does not fit within the Sony SSD space.

I took some more pictures showing the vertical clearance, to estimate which of the components on the 5744 board needs to be removed (the USB connector, mode selector switch, SATA plugs, and of course the mounting bracket). I didn't actually manage to connect the RAID board to the Z1: the main thought bothering me throughout the night before was whether the power supply from the single SATA port is enough to support the board, and two drives. So much so that when I as at MicroCenter, I bought only the SATA power cable splitter, and forgot all about the data cable.

:facepalm:

I almost drove all the way back, when I realized something else...


Part 2: Internal RAID

As I was poking around checking the space available, I disassembled the HDD caddy and I saw this:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/HuFgMktv-AtiBWyD14ZDag?feat=directlink
(I have no idea why I can't link to this photo)

Apparently, it comes with the optical drive's SATA port, albeit in a slimline form. Sony put it there even though it's not doing anything. If it can be used, the RAID/JBOD capability can be provided by the embedded Intel controller, so no external solution is needed.

Of course, the slimline SATA port cannot be used directly because it supplies only the 5V, and does not include the 3.3V that a drive needs. But then again that port is a combo port: it has a data part which is standard SATA signal, and it has a power part which is the slimline part. If you look at the HDD SATA port to the right, you can see the same signal part (it's the left side of the combo port). We probably can't have different drives sharing the same signal port, but we should be able to share the power port.

So my next step is to build a custom cable that gives the slimline port's signal to the first drive, the HDD port's signal to the second drive, and split the HDD port's power to both drives. That would involve just soldering the bare SATA connector plugs with wires, and would probably be much easier than dealing with the external RAID hardware.

My attention is also shifting to building the caddy. I can't use the HDD caddy, and it needs to rigidly keep the new cables in place, in addition to the drives. Right now, probably because of too many visits to Home Depot, my brain is offering the solution "wood shims", but if anyone has any idea how to get plastic strips, I think that would be a better solution. Also, since the HDD caddy is no longer used, there will be a hole at the side of the laptop which needs to be closed.

Anyway, I'm building the cables next, hopefully the power supply is sufficient

 

A possible solution is:

Get a SATA HDD caddy ( http://cgi.ebay.com.au/2nd-HDD-Hard...e_Internal?hash=item2eac83fc6b#ht_2046wt_1167) and strip everything off except the electronic part. Connect it to the slim SATA connector for SSD1.

Use the HDD cable to connect SSD2. Obviously the SSDs need to be stripped bare to fit inside the ODD space. Holding them together shouldn't be a major issue.

Now you have a nice RAID 0 setup with 2 X25-m.

I am thinking of setting this up but couldn't get the HDD FPC cable. Any chance of getting one for me?

 

@TofuTurkey,

Most, if not all, 2.5" drives require only 5V - that's how all those USB->SATA small adapters w/o power supply work.

It is only 1.8" drives that will need 3.3V

I have X25-E connected to the Slimline SATA in my new Z, and it works perfectly.

Just follow ozbimmer's advice and get a Slim SATA->SATA bay adapter and use it for the first drive, and connect the second one via. supplied FPC cable in your Z.

Then, you can put both of them in a RAID array in the Intel Option ROM.

This is probably the most effective way, and except for small passive electronics (bay adapter) it requires no extra controllers, etc...

 

That sounds reasonable: the ultrabay adapter must be down-converting the 5V to 3.3V. The issue is how far the adapter needs to be stripped down, and whether it'll still have enough places to bolt the drives down. Somebody needs to post lots of pics of that stripped-down adapter

I have an associated thought which I forgot to put down: the Z1 in its entirety is quite rigid, but separating the components, I find that each of them is quite flexible. It's like component A is flexible in dimension 1 but rigid in dimension 2, but component B is the opposite. When the two are joined together, each complements the other so that the overall product is not flexible in either dimension. I think that's why it's light: rather than focus on making few, big pieces that have to have more material to be rigid, Sony solved it by making many small pieces that, joined together, are rigid. Hence the many, many screws.

I'm actually quite relieved I may not have to deal with surface-mount soldering. I only have to deal with beginner-level, normal wire soldering,

Don't you have the Sony SSDs? If you use the HDD cable, aren't you giving them up?

 

Thanks I'll try the slimline-to-SATA adapter then, hopefully that is sufficient, if not, I'll just re-route the power from the normal SATA port.

The issue with the ultrabay is that it accepts one input: the slimline port. I'm not sure how the HDD port can be accommodated, it may be straight-forward, but it may not be. If it just doesn't fit, or require significant physical hacking, then it may not be as attractive an alternative.

I just don't like to say "It works!" until I see it happen

 

No need to down-convert as explained by psyq321.

Yes I might have to remove the Sony SSD IF (and that's a big if) a pair of X25-m is proved to be better.

 

It's sufficient. Like psyq321 I am also using the adapter and it works perfectly.

 

where did you find the Z CTO with hard drive in the US? the only options I see on the sony website are for SSD configs

 

Hello,

Any idea how does the X25-M G2 compare to the Sony Quad Raid 0?

I already have a intel X25-G2 2.5" and want to buy this laptop, i don't know if get the HDD model and replace it with the x25m that I already have or forget about it and get the sony quad raid. Price diference is something like 800USD.

Will I notice improvement of the quad raid over a alone x25M?

Thanks,

 

Good question. Here's some useful information.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showpost.php?p=6168423&postcount=3849

I also run some other benchmarks (AS-SSD, Iometer) and they showed similar results.

 

Thanks for the reply. Very useful info.

As far as I can can see write with quad raid is a lot faster.

The 4K QD32 results are something strange.

Do you think the boot time will be faster with quad raid than with X25-M

One advantage of the intel is the TRIM.

I'm not technical, what do you suggest?

 

IMHO, boot time not significantly different.

Sony SSD supports TRIM. The Intel RAID driver doesn't yet.

Interesting to see the Intel in RAID 0

 

Boot times are about the same, well within 1 second even for X25-E (which is quite faster compared to X25-M) vs. built-in Samsung MLC in RAID.

So... getting another SSD just for the purpose of OS booting is definitely not going to bring any visible benefits.

 

I'm not only comparing if for booting; just wanted to have an idea.

If I put the intel, I will only use one drive; not Raid.

 

I bought an acrylic sheet from Home Depot Now I need an electric saw (if there's one thing I learnt from home maintenance, it's that if something can be done using a machine, it's better to do just that.)

Also ordered a bunch of SATA connectors:



I'll probably get the wires from RadioShack...

A new thought: I probably need some sort of padding, much like the rubber ones the HDD version comes with. These will be needed to absorb the stress, shock and flex which would otherwise be transmitted to the SSD boards. I'm thinking thin rubber or foam tape, if these things exist. Now I have to look for them...

You get better X25-M numbers (in general) than me I need to look at that sometime...

I think of it this way: there are two extremes corresponding to the two available solutions: the HDD caddy, and the Ultrabay. What is needed is something in the middle: we can start with the extremes then hack from there, or we can build something new. I'm going to build something new, since hacking is required in any case

I think, especially for folks with no prior (fast) SSD experience, the Intel X25-M would be more than sufficient. The quad SSD is better in terms of the bulk sequential access, but that's not where most of the access is (it's in the random 4K read/writes).

This project has a geeky nature to it : can I build something that can perform better than the quad SSDs, and which can be easily upgradable in the future (with any product)? It's about future proofing I guess

Edit: Sorry if any of the picture attachments are too big. I was watching a DVD yesterday, and it took up just a quarter of the screen. And that's a 13" screen. My sense of whether a picture is big or small has been blown to bits...

 

I bought it from Conics.net: you can configure the model there, they buy it from Sony Japan, then ship it. Brett has been very responsive, and they'll check for problems before they ship it.

 

Yeah, the TRIM command doesn't get through to drives in RAID. Hopefully they'll go the extra mile to support Intel SATA controllers managing Intel SSDs

Intel does have the SSD Toolkit, with its optimizer. I'm guessing that's not TRIM, I don't know if it also works for drives in RAID. I suppose anything else is preferable to breaking up and erasing the drives every few months...

 

One X25-M could easily beat the Sony quad SSD in the 4k test, but in everyday work environment I doubt the performance difference is significant enough to be of concern.

I agree with you re the issue of upgradability. Nevertheless, one can remove the quad SSD and upgrade to the "latest" SSD using the ultrabay caddy.

I am most interested in the performance of a pair of X25-M (RAID 0) in the new Z.

 

Thanks for the reply. I supose I will get the european model with the HDD and change it for my x25-M. There is 800 USD diference in prize and I allready have the intel drive.

According of what I'm reading I don't think the diference between the X25-M and the Quad worth that money diference. The only thing is that I will loose CD.

 

I'll toss my opinion in and dawn my flame suite.

I completely agree with your SSD assesment.

Sony's quad SSD is more than substantial for 99% of the people. Disk benchmarks are nice but I can't help but see something similar to a "Mustang vs. Camaro" horsepower and 1/4 mile time debate.

I do think the access time on Sony's quad SSD is faster on RR/RW though the throughput is higher on the Intel. I believe this may partially be due to TRIM, however I think it is the amount of memory (cache) on the SSD that is a differentiating factor. (All things being equal)

 

Lots of pins to solder



Hopefully this works...

 

Interesting.

I just want to clarify what you are trying to do: Are you connecting two 2.5" SSD or one 2.5" and one 1.8" SSD?

FYI this is the slimline SATA to "normal" SATA component in the Ultrabay adapter.

 

That's a good photo, it looks like the adapter just connects pins from one connector to those of another, no additional components. I think that by itself should be enough to allow the accommodation of two drives. The question then becomes space, which I think there is enough of. But have to try... Are you able to put that adapter in the Z and take a picture? Probably one drive will have to sit over the other. The last question then would be the caddy, or some sort of support for the drives...

I'm trying to connect two 2.5" SSDs, I'm beginning to think about solutions that can be independent of the disk size. For 1.8", the data side of things are the same as that for 2.5" drive: same data cable can be used. It's the power cables that need to be different.

If we separate the two kinds of cable, we need a combo data-power cable (for SATA and slimline SATA) that splits into data and power (latter is usually Molex 4-pin for off-the-shelf ready cables). The drive-specific power cable (Molex to SATA power, or Molex to micro-SATA power) can then be attached accordingly. So that would be a general solution. Except for the size of the Molex connectors

 

I think this gadget should fix the issue with 1.8" drive (no need Molex )

1.8 to 2.5 Drive Adapter w/ 3.3v support (Micro-SATA to SATA)

 

I was building the cable with power splitting off of the HDD connector. Looks like this:



Thoughts:
o The MTTF of the cable is probably a couple of hours
o I didn't spend enough time thinking. For each kind of pin (ground, 3.3V, 5V, ground, 12V), there are multiple ones with the reason being each (small) pin may not be sufficient to supply the necessary current. Hence there are multiple ones working in parallel. Hence, instead of having one wire for each pin, really I should have soldered multiple pins to one wire, i.e. all 3.3V pins soldered together. So instead of (15x2) wires there should only be (5x2).
o A main worry is the amount of space, especially with 2.5" drives. There's not much leeway in the horizontal direction (i.e. along the length of the Z), so if the adapter is too wide, it won't fit. But from the picture it looks like (taking the heat shrink into account) the custom adapter doesn't save that much space anyway compared with the off-the-shelf cable on the right.

Building just that bit of custom cable made me feel the same way I felt when I stripped the paint off of my garage floor (minus the sore muscles): a lot of work for very little return. So I've decided to go back to off-the-shelf cables for a while, and return to customizing cables only if they don't work (space-wise).

Following the thoughts on accommodating 2.5" drive from the slimline connector, I'm using the solution where the slimline combo adapter into SATA data and Molex power, then a separate cable from Molex to SATA power. This would also serve the same purpose as the (significantly smaller) adapter converter that ozbimmer posted in the picture.

 

Yeah but I'll have to strip off most of the hardware, I'll only be using the adapter Maybe someone out there sells just the adapter...

Molex isn't too bad: I can use the space Sony SSDs usually occupy, or I can solder the connections together (just 4 instead of 30).

The funny thing about off-the-shelf power cables is that, I think, they usually have 4 power wires: ground, 5V, ground, 12V. They don't bother with the 3.3V.

 

Ok so I received the extension cables (SATA, and slimline SATA). Connected them:



Looked at the BIOS screen, only the first drive (using HDD interface) appears. Second drive (via slimline port) doesn't show up anywhere.

Brain says, "You've got a problem with the BIOS". I went to check some of the BIOS screenshots against mine, and noticed a difference in the Advanced menu:



It appears that the RAID menu options are missing. If the 2nd second shows up somewhere, I think this is the place.

So it looks like I'll have to work on the steps below, I need to check the BIOS tool that psyq321 posted:

o Enable slimline port (optical drive?)
o Enable RAID

More fun...

 

Unfortunately simple cable slim SATA -> SATA solution will NOT WORK on the new Z. I tried re-using the same cable adapter solution I made for the old Z - and drive refused to show up. It worked perfectly in the old Z.

If you measure the voltage on the SATA power lines, you'll get something like 1V DC, instead of 5V.

You will need the adapter like one pictured in ozbimmer's post (or Lenovo UltraBay III which has a plastic lid very similar to the lid of the Z's optical drive, so it looks almost if it was built for it - except a small hole) - they have more than simple wire routing - for exaple, there are couple of capacitors and one small IC on my UltraBay III adapter.

I don't know what they do actually - maybe optical drives have some power-management features that have to be "emulated" via this circuitry.

But the fact of the matter is - New Z will refuse to power the SATA SSDs if you just connect it with simple cable adapter. Slim SATA to SATA adapter PCB (with above mentioned additional electronics) is needed.

 

You're referring only to the power, not data, right? I also tried using the power supply from the HDD SATA port, with data from slimline port: didn't work. Will be trying the BIOS thingy tonight, I think there's no other place the 5th drive can show up other than the RAID menu

 

To confirm I used external power source (PC PSU)

I would try that to eliminate any power issues.

The issue is just power - not data. Once the power issue is solved, 5th drive shows in BIOS/RAID Option ROM

Maybe, just maybe, your "Optical" 5th SATA port is disabled in BIOS (if it was HDD-only model) - and for that you'll need to enable Advanced menu and check the port status in the BIOS.

 

I need to get the RAID options anyway, they're all missing

 

The plot thickens!

I installed the advanced BIOS menu (thanks psyq321!). With both disks, first BIOS screen looks like this, only the first (HDD) drive shows up:

In the "Advanced" menu, still no RAID options show up



But under "IDE Configuration" the second disk appears attached to port 1:



Since I never know when to quit, I booted into Windows and saw both drives:



In Intel's Storage Manager I see both drives too:



And it seems that I can create a RAID0 drive:



So, while installing Acronis True Image and making my backup, as well as Ubuntu 10.04, does anybody know

- Why doesn't the RAID menu show up in BIOS?
- Why doesn't the JBOD option show up in Intel Storage Manager?
- Will the RAID menu in BIOS show up only after configuration in Intel Storage Manager?
- What will happen if I create the RAID under Intel Storage Manager, will Windows crash immediately? Will it shutdown cleanly then do its RAID job just before Windows reboots? Will my dishes be clean automatically after every meal?

 

Raid menu will show up once you flashed your bios to enable the advanced settings. Go into bios and you'll see an option (in the main screen i think) "Intel Raid Configuration"..by default it's set to "hide". you need to change it to "show". once you do that you'll see the Intel screen come up after post and you hit control-I to enter the intel utility.

 

Thanks! Trouble is, it does not show Under "IDE Configuration", I have the option to set the controller as IDE, AHCI or RAID. Setting it as RAID does not make any other option show up.

I was searching for this a bit, I think this thread gave some clues:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/son...upgrade-crappy-slow-hdd-rocking-fast-ssd.html

In particular, I decided that the BIOS versions for SSD vs. HDD Zs are the same, and that it's the recognition of multiple drives that, er, drives the appearance of the "Show RAID" options.

So something must be influencing that recognition. Looking at the pics in that thread above, I noticed that, in the main (first) menu, both drives show up. In my case, the second drive (usually the DVD/BR drive) does not appear in my main menu. I'm wondering if that's the reason why the BIOS still thinks there's only 1 drive (in other words, drives attached to the slimline adapter is not considered when deciding whether, for purposes of RAID, there is more than one drive).

From the pictures taken by folks with SSDs, there's always at least two Sony SSDs, so this problem does not arise.

If that's indeed the case, and if there's no way to alter the BIOS to treat the slimline SSD as one of the legitimate drives, then I'm thinking the only other way is to configure it via the OS. So perhaps during a clean install (using F6, I need to look this up), or via a separate Win 7 drive (don't know if this works), or in the actual Win 7 drive itself. For the last option, if the controller software is smart enough, it should just rebuild the RAID drive (as opposed to BSOD-ing ). I hope this is the case. I need to go get an enclosure now to store my backup image

 

I think there's a difference between the SSD and HDD version of the BIOS. May be psyq321 could help you to do a comparison? Could be a simple switch in the BIOS to reveal the relevant options.

 

I thought about it a bit more, I think it is not necessary...

I looked at Intel's notes on creating the RAID drive (from http://www.intel.com/support/chipsets/imsm/sb/CS-022648.htm):

I think

o The first part, enabling Intel® RAID Technology, is already the default in the BIOS. As shown in the IDE configuration options, of the modes IDE/AHCI/RAID, it was already in RAID mode. And from Negaiido's post here: http://forum.notebookreview.com/son...vaio-z-advanced-menu-bios-14.html#post6161345, his HDD is also configured in RAID mode, changing it to IDE or AHCI makes his machine BSOD. This suggests that the ICH8 is running in JBOD, perhaps treated as a submode of RAID. That's why, when in Windows, both drives show up (see previous pic), separately. It's already in JBOD by default.

o The second part, "Create a RAID Volume", has an equivalent in software within Windows. Looking at the help file in Intel Rapid Storage Technology, I see

This agrees with the pic I captured (well, the disk and RAID selection stage anyway, I didn't continue), but more importantly, this is the equivalent of the pre-OS, BIOS setup of RAID.

The part in bold is more interesting, it says that we can begin with two disks in JBOD mode, then spread the data in one to both disks. This means that I can attach my blank SSD to the JBOD, and use the Intel software to create the RAID0 volume. Without reinstalling the OS or restoring the image. Which is what other RAID controllers are able to do.

With these info in mind, taking a step back, I think it was not necessary to make any changes to the BIOS: it was already in RAID/JBOD, and the volume creation can be done in software within Windows.

For some time now my guts have been standing at the sidelines and laughing at me (for being, er, gutless). So I've decided to take a leap and perform the RAID volume creation "post-OS". Currently waiting for the second SSD to arrive, and for some free time.

I've also realized I've got quite a bit of foam, so if my adventures with the electric saw and acrylic sheet don't work out, I'll just stuff the empty spaces with foam

 

I think your reasoning is sound. Looking forward to the result

 

You are missing my point I think. once you enable Raid as the IDE mode (which you've done) while STILL IN BIOS but now in the main page (I think, it could be under boot) you will see an option "Show Raid Configuration" or something along those lines. There are two options, show and hide. You want "show". Once you do that and save and reboot AFTER the Vaio bios logo disappears the Intel stuff will show up.

 

RAID is the default IDE mode, it was the case for me, and for a fellow HDD-option-er (Negaiido). While still in BIOS and on the main page (or any other page) I've never seen the "Show RAID" option show up, or actually anything new. It's possible I missed it though, I'll check again when my second disk arrives... Thanks!

 

Here's a pic. Do you have a new Z??

 

I can confirm that the HDD version does not have the RAID Configuration option in BIOS.

 

OZ you are confirming this on a unit with the hacked bios? If so, how do they expect you to manage the RAID array I wonder? Sounds like a flash to different bios may be needed?

 

No I haven't yet hacked the BIOS (HDD). I actually am thinking of copying the BIOS (SSD) to the HDD one

RAID array creation, according to TofuTurkey' research, could be done in the OS.

 

Can't do raid in OS if you want to boot to it. I don't think ANY of the Z's show the RAID "show" option until the BIOS is reflashed with the Advanced Options tool.

 

Yes. Come on I saw that option for Zs with SSDs, that option has never shown up. I posted pics

HDD-optioned Zs are not expected to have RAID drives, hence it doesn't make sense to have them show up.

From the TT upgrade thread (I think I pointed to that above), the RAID options show up when 1. the mode was set to RAID, and 2. the second drive appeared (in the first BIOS screen). In my Z, the HDC is already by default in RAID mode (see pic). I suspect the RAID options aren't showing up because whatever's connected to the slimline adapter is assumed not to be a harddrive and hence it doesn't show up in the first BIOS screen as one of the four possible drives. I was wondering if this needs to be hacked but I'm going to chicken out and go the software route

 

Yes, I'm pretty certain the bios needs to be hacked (to enable advanced menus) in order to enable the raid stuff to show up.

HDD models still have the SSD in raid0 correct? If so, then you obviously still need the raid option rom to load. Don't you want to boot to your RAID SSD??

I posted a pic for you on page 4

 

I think (or rather, speculate) in this way: the controller's mode (not IDE/AHCI/RAID, but RAID0, JBOD) can be determined either via BIOS, or via Intel's software. In both cases, it must be persistently written, that must be to the chip (or someplace controlled by the chip).

When the machine boots, I imagine that after POST control is handed over to the controller, and as long as 1. the controller state is correct and 2. the data on the disks are arranged correctly, then boot up will still be successful. I believe that the Intel software is capable of making both work: to reflect the right state, it must retrieve the same state that the BIOS writes to. And I believe it is capable also of altering that state. So, what remains is whether it is capable of altering the data on the disks, to create a RAID volume. It seems to say it can.

But all these is speculative, I can type till my fingers fall off and nothing definitive will come out of it. I'll try it out and post pics

 

Errr.... no? I was looking at Zoinks' unboxing thread where he showed how the RAID can be setup in BIOS, that was before psyq321's effort on advanced menu hacking showed up. Maybe we're talking about different options?

Yes I've seen the pic you've posted, I've not seen that option, nor any other way of manipulating RAID volumes, anywhere...

 

Don't need to speculate. I installed a pair of X25-M to the HDD Z and the Intel RAID Config screen shows up!!

Installing W7 now.

 

Oi take pictures Did you have to copy the BIOS over?