Vaio Z Diagonal lines on screen

The build-quality of VAIOs is not the best - too fragile for most tastes. But with sacrificed build-quality comes lower mass, which to me (and a 'select few' others out there) was a bigger factor. By the 'select few', I mean those who can take good care of things ^_^

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but most brands that come with LED are BACKlit by LED - the VAIO SR and FW is included. The Z (and I think the AW and the older TZ) are EDGE lit by white LED.

The one thing that the VAIOs are different in in regards to screen is the non-glossy / matt screen. Compared with ALL other brands, the VAIOs (the high end ones at least) don't have glossy screens like the MBP or all HPs etc etc, which is why I chose the Z in the first place. Maybe this special matt layer is causing a special refraction of light that causes us to pickup the lines?

I'm guessin the SZ has a glossy (shiny) screen? Haven't seen one in real life so can't confirm that..

 

yes the SZ has the glossy screen..

 

AFAIK all LED laptops are EDGE lit. LED Backlighting is only found at the moment in 50+ inch TVs.

VAIO X, Z, SR, TT, W, TZ, SZ "premium" and TX have edge lit LED screens. FW is CCFL.

 

so it fixes it?

 

Not at 100% but it improves significantly. Now I can barely see the lines and only if I'm really close so it doesn't bother me anymore.
I guess the degree of the issue is different in each lap. So for those that can't stand with the lines, it might be your solution.

 

So is this issue more of something that develops over time and if so, in what kind of time frame is this problem developing ? I've had my Z820 for close to 3 weeks and DON'T have this issue.

 

I first noticed the lines 4 months into use. It started in the lower right, then grew to the lower left, then the upper right. The middle and upper left don't have the lines... Yet...

So I guess this problem is only visible if you have a VAIO with a matt screen (not glossy)?

 

I just received mine (Z890) and no diagonal lines I can see so far. Hope they don't show up either...

 

i got mine mid november, I noticed them about a week ago.

 

Hm so they are still there? Just less visible, is that what you're saying?

 

They are realy hard to spot.

First get realy close to screen.

Open an Explorer and concentrate on the top bar and move the window around. Now should be able to spot the fine lines.

TDO

 

oh yea...ok, i see them....but only if i hold the screen to my face and tilt it at just the perfect angle. nothing to worry about or stress over, in my opinion.

 

so yours is almost new, right? means it's kinda natural thing for this screen? am i right? and not something that develops over time due to, say, extra stress on the screen when opening\closing it?

so what about the tap mentioned earlier? what do you think TDO, is it worth playing with?

 

well, I don't wanna be impolite or alike but you should read more carefully. If I said "barely", I really meant it.
And yes, they are less visible. (barely seen)

 

With a 6-bit display trying to display 8-bit colour, there will always be dithering artifacts.

Imagine trying to display the colour (254,254,254), or #FEFEFE, i.e. almost-white. Since the LCD is incapable of displaying that colour nuance, it has to dither to approximate it. One way of doing it is to have every other pixel #3F3F3F (which is the 6-bit equivalent of white) and every other pixel #3E3E3E. But that makes a larger contrast difference than necessary, and can make it easy to spot. So a "good" 6-bit display may instead do #3F3E3F #3E3F3E pairs. The contrast difference is less, but has the side effect of being more ordered on a subpixel level. Which tends to show up as perceived diagonal lines if the gamma-per-colour isn't calibrated.

Another way of reducing the artifacts is to use a less predictable dithering, like Floyd-Steinberg. However, this only works well for static images -- once things move, you will get a "creepy-crawly" effect as the pixels vary in intensity when redrawn.

Some manufacturers "solve" this problem by blinking between colours instead of dithering, or a combination of blinking and dithering. But that cause even worse problems, as certain colours will appear to flicker, and you still get a subpixel pattern, due to red, green and blue not cooling down at the same rate.

A halfway decent solution is to have pre-configured pseudo-random mask map covering the entire display, and filtering through that -- then the dithering will be consistent. But that requires a sizeable ROM, and the display will become more expensive -- in which case you might as well go 8-bit in the first place...

So what can the consumers do? Live with it, and calibrate the gamma of the display to perceptual values, which will reduce the problem a lot. And the next time, don't believe the hype about how wonderful the display is -- it's a 6-bit display with pumped up contrast, and not even close to the quality of even cheap 8-bit LCDs.

For some display tests, see http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/

 

@arth1
So can you explain why new Z (fresh out of the box) don't have this issue whereas an aged VAIO (ie, been in use for a while) shows obvious signs of the PWM phenomenon?

From what you are saying, the Z and others with similar issues should be showing PWM straight-out of the box...

On a slightly different subject... Can you tell me what brand (not neccessarily Sony) makes a 8bit (or higher if possible) LED LCD panel with similar pumped-up contrast? Because as it is now, I'm not too happy with my Z (and still a year and 2 days left of warranty), though I might just get my LCD panel replaced under warranty a month or so before it ceases next year...

 

It really is strange; My Vaio was fine for about 4-5 Months.
It only started to happen after it came back from the repair center.

After Sony repair had it for the 4th or 5th time, It came back fine or at least the line line were not as visible. They said they did nothing apart from update the Bios, even though the Bios had been updated by them 2 weeks prior and there was no new Bios release. So they were obviously lying one of these times.

I wonder if they adjusted that pot thing.

Anyway after about a month of it being a lot better, it started to appear again in the bottom left corner.

I have to live with this now as my Warranty has expired and I have moved Country from the UK to Canada.
One plus side to Sony's rubbish service is that I kept bugging them and I scored a Sony Walkman x1060 16gb touch screen player and a Sony Vaio case as a goodwill gesture for them having my Laptop for so long. I would rather my Sony have been repaired/replaced or refunded but at least it's something.

Sony should be more upfront about this issue it's not really fair on us consumers.

Not sure if I could buy Sony again due to there service and bureaucracy.

 

Gamma. As the LED crystals and backlight gets older, the perceptual luminance for a given colour changes, and unless you adjust the gamma correction accordingly, you may far more easily spot things like dithering.

And, let's face it, most consumers don't worry about things like checking their colours with a Gretag Macbeth chart or running a calibrator like Eye1 or Spyder. Most of them have not even used the built-in gamma adjustment in their display settings!

And they do -- several people here have seen it on brand new store display models. It's just less perceivable.

That fits in a Z? No, unfortunately. If someone made one, it would probably be heck to install...

But signs are that more computer manufacturers listen to the demands of consumers who use programs like Photoshop and Lightroom, and start producing laptops with better displays. Dell and Asus, for example, have a couple of models with displays that put the Z to shame, and there's a new Toshiba in the works that's specifically aimed at photography buffs -- we'll see what it does.

The Z has a great display for watching video and office/DTP work. But it's really not well suited for work where colour correctness and nuances are important -- as the diagonal line phenomenon shows. 262,144 colours are simply never going to look as good as 16,777,216 colours, as dithering and flashing always come with a price. TAANSTAAFL.

 

So what are the options for those who have it on warranty? Bring it in and make em replace the screen/adjust the pot? Play with gamma settings? If yes, what program is the best to use in this case?

 

So? Anyone? What are you guys going to do about the lines on your Zs?

 

to be honest, after more than a year of using the laptop, i still can't see the diagonal lines...

what brightness settings do you guys use?

usually i use 4 bars at day, and 0 - 1 bars at night as brightness settings.

Any brighter, and my eyes will get uncomfortable from staring at the screen

Is that one of the reason why i'm unable to see any diagonal lines?

 

What these 4 bars at day, and 0 - 1 bars at night that you're referring to? What settings? I'm sure the bars are there on any Z's screen but still, just curious.

 

Just found some interesting threadth from a mac user that put a matte film to his macbook and he mentioned this: "The bigger distraction for me is that everything I move my head, there looks to be diagonal lines of light moving across the screen. The brighter the screen, the more obvious these effects are."

So that might confirm my 1st theory that the duraview layer (polarizer layer,aka matte layer) is causing this effect.

The link of the post:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthr.../forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=655833

 

My Z51XG from Holland has diagonal lines on the screen from day 1 (I bought it about 2 weeks ago).

UPDATE: I just unboxed a brand new Lenovo T400 with a 1280x800 matte screen with LED backlight and I see it also has those diagonal lines...

 

I think it's the screen, not the coating. Why? because while watching a movie file or a clip on youtube - I see the lines even without moving my head!

 

We've had a SZ user a few pages or so back (at the time of writing, P6 on this thread) confirming he didn't have the diagonal line issue, while his newer Z did. The SZ has a glossy (shiny) screen vs the matt found on the Z and the Lenovo T400 mentioned by ota-con above.

From what I read and now conclude, the polarized matt layer seems to be causing some sort of funky refraction with the colours coming out of the LCD.

I might be wrong when I say this, but the fact that the Z LCD panel is a 6bit display seems to be irrelevant in this case.
- Sure the display will refresh to display an image, but then all monitors do.
- And yeah, I acknowledge that the Z's LCD isn't able to display as many colours as photo-editors (like me) would like it to.

But then, I've never, ever, seen a single laptop in real-life on the market except Sony's machines that has the diagonal line issue. And Sony is the only I brand I've seen (where I live) that makes some of its lappies with matt screens.

I mean, I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one 6bit panel LCD somewhere but with a glossy screen. And NO laptop I've seen with a glossy screen ever had the diagonal line issue. And trust me, I've analysed alot of laptop screens back in the days because I'm into my photos...

And I never did see the diagonal lines on the Z until 4 months into use... I still check around in stores when I'm out shopping for bits and bobs of hardware, and have yet to see the diagonal lines on a glossy screen machine.
Netbooks in particular - they are cheap machines so I would assume they have cheap displays (6bit at the highest). They all have glossy screens, and none of them seem to have the issue.

So in the end, it points towards the coating of the screen, and as arth1 mentioned earlier, the aging of the LED crystals.

....My 2 cents worth....

EDIT
@Firestone - I use full brightness because any lower indoors it's too dim for me... I did however notice that the diagonal lines cease to appear at lower brightness settings. Which further points towards the coating and not whether the panel is 6bit or not.

And I'm planning on taking in my Z in a few months time (Nov this year at the latest) to replace the LCD - been seeing more and more dying pixels recently... I'll keep you updated as to what happens with a replaced (and hopefully new) LCD.

 

in order to see the diagonal lines: get closer to the screen, blink your eyes fast and it will become obvious

 

If you have to do that to see it, is it really that much of an issue?

I saw a couple Z's in the store and could not find these diagnonal lines. Which you would think if it was wear and tear I would see it in a store model. But then again, since it can be hard to see, maybe some end users just don't have the "eye" to see the lines.

 

The MSI Wind U100 has a matt LED screen. As former admin (for about a year) on a popular board about this netbook series I haven't heard of any issues concerning diagonal lines, nor have I seen any with the one in front of me.

So I wouldn't say having a matt layer automatically translates to diagonal lines.

There are of course differences. The size and resolution for example, and they could well be using different sorts of matt layers.

 

The matt screen is NOT the problem, because VAIO SR has the diagonal lines and it is a glossy display.

 

Hm... a guy above with SR said he's got none, while his Z does those lines. Do you have SR to confirm?

 

I have a new SR590. There are no diagonal lines present on the screen, no matter how much I try to look for them.

 

Yes, my brother has an SR and I've seen plenty of them in stores, and all SRs have the lines. They are a bit less visible than in Z, though.

 

Okay then. I guess my 2 week old SR590 has them too. Maybe they'll just show up one day.

 

As in VAIO Z, they are only visible in moving objects/video.

Open a window in your desktop and move it from left to right repeatedly. While doing that, look closely to the top semi-transparent title bar of the window and you will see the diagonal lines in it.

 

When manipulating the screens in such a way, it's barely visibile in my Z and from what I can see non-existent in my SR. For everything else, it's a non-issue but I can understand those who are sensitive to such screen imperfections. Fingerprints from someone touching the screen are more bothersome to me than the diagonal line issue.

 

Perhaps someone can clairfy what I'm trying to see on my 4-year old SZ, to see if it's similar to the problem here.

Basically if I do things as described and look very carefully, I can see faint RF-interference style lines at a 45 degree angle, running from top left to bottom right. The spacing of the lines is maybe 4-5 pixels on a 1280x800 screen.

 

On the Z's 1600x900 screen, the lines are about 2x pixels apart, also running from top left towards bottom right.

I can see the lines without moving anything. But the lines are harder to see when the screen is displaying darker colours. When the brightness is at about 50%, the lines again are harder to see.
Which brings me to what arth1 said earlier - colour display issues?

 

srsly, until now i havent notice this problem at my 1 year old + VAIO Z...
i guess my eyes not good enough to notice lol..

 

I only started noticing these lines after reading about it here....

 

Hi

I have a Acer Aspire 5920G and also recognized those diagonale thin lines running through the screen. The first time I recognized them was after switching my graphics card from a nVidia GeForce 9500M GS to a ATI Mobility Radeon HD4650.
So I think it's the bad dithering method the ATI cards are using.
Because I also recognized the dithering with my 9500M GS after I reinstalled it to compare. And the screen also dithers, but in an other way (seperated pixel, no lines).
And I can surely say that's the issue of the LCD panel. I tried it on an external display (VGA, 6bit, 500:1 contrast). Also the same lines, but less visible.
Then I tried it with a 42" Full HD TV from Toshiba (HDMI&VGA, 10bit, 10.000:1 contrast). No lines and no visible dithering.

As I can say the lines also show up on the desktop and also in "colored" areas, but you can clearly see them in black/dark areas in videos/pictures ...

For example in this picture I can clearly see the lines in the second, bigger, vertical, black line. But only if I look carefully at it and move my head or eyes up and down.

 

So, anyone tried to address this with their local sony repair center? Couz we can talk as much as we wont, but looks like there is no way to fix it but to replace the screen or something?

 

I've found the basis of this problem: slow death of the polarisation filter.

Basically, all (modern) LCDs require a polarisation filter in front of the screen to produce colours, and most of them are on a horizontal plane. But on the Z and the SZ (I own both), it is on a 45 degree plane.

Put on some polarised sunglasses and have a look, you will see those rainbow-y effects go crazy as you tilt your head.

Note: This effect will get worse in the presence of flourescent lighting and low-angle/reflected sunlight.

 

Ok, sounds like you know what you are talking about, but my question to you sir is - what are the options avaliable to us, consumers and owners of the Vaio Z in this case? Is it fixable? Can Sony fix it by replacing the screen? Adjusting some hardware settings?

 

Well, since I'm upset at Sony and know that there is 0 chance I'll be appeased...I can say that the diagonal lines are an inherent design flaw with the notebook. There is no way Sony will acknowledge that, so basically you need to sell your Z or live with it. In my book, though, this is most definitely a flaw. I'll be watching the new Z series to see if it still has this definite problem. My other pet peeve are the keyboard pressure marks that will get imprinted permanently on the screen over time. It seems to be a real problem with the flimsy screen.

 

So anyone knows if the new vaio Z has the same screen issue? There is a 300>> page thread about it on this forum, and people seem to be excited about this new heavily-overpriced Z. Hope they get their money worth

 

This is the real cause of the diagonal lines:

And in the new Z there are two different screens:

- 1600x900, which is probably the same as the one in the old Z. It uses PWM for sure. I think the lines in this screen will look exactly the same as in the old model.

- 1920x1080, new screen, but also uses PWM. There is a difference, though. Due to a higher dpi, the screen needs more backlight to display a similar amount of brightness as the 1600 one. In order to acomplish this, the PWM blinks noticeably less, the frequency is different and that affects the visibility of the diagonal lines.
An user who saw this new screen model in Japan says that the lines are still there, but they are harder too see.

But there is a drawback with the new screen: it uses more power in order to produce more backlight. Battery life will be 10-20% shorter compared to the 1600x900 model.

 

omg... 1920x1080 with 13.1?! Anyhow if the lines are still there on both models of the new screen - it makes no difference: THEY ARE STILL THERE! I mean the guy was still able to see them with his bare eye right?

 

Yes, they are still there. But... we have to get used to it. Most manufacturers use PWM on their LED backlight models.

Or, you have this other options, of course:
- Buy a laptop with CCFL backlight
- Find a LED laptop that doesn't use PWM
- Wait until OLED arrives (2011-2012)

I have ordered a new 1920x1080 VAIO Z, will report about the lines as soon as it arrives.

 

So, the new Z (both screens) neither have CCFL backlight and still use PWM? In other words it's the same tech as before? Do you know if the next year Z models will have OLED screens?