WHO does think DUO 11 is a good model?

Personally, Duo 11 is really a shame to come out.
How can this stuff replace VAIO Z?!
Oh, God!
SONY needs mental therapy!

 

Agree! Is this confirmed? Where?

 

I think it's a very, very good model.

The first post is misleading because it's been confirmed that it's not meant to replace the Z line. The current Z is going on hiatus for a while (the PMD doesn't play nice with Win8), and Sony has introduced some new models (including the Xperia Tablet S, Tap 20, and Duo 11), but that doesn't mean any of those replaces the Z. A new Z will be on the way in time. So liking the Z doesn't have to mean disliking the Duo 11 and vice versa.

 

I think Duo is a very good model, probably better than Z for what it is, just that it's not of the same bloodline as Z.

Starting with the introduction of the PCG-SR & Picturebook C1 in the final year of last millennium, there has always been a low-voltage (later ULV as well), sub-11" VAIO lineage, while the current VZ11 can trace its root to the then most portable standard power CPU ultraportable, the12.1" PCG-Z505.

There are many, many LV/ULV sub-11" VAIO that wowed us in the past decade, U, TZ, UX, G, P, X, just to name a few, not with insane performance, but with the incredible portability and flexibility. While Sony is not the first one to embrace tablet nor the slider configuration, so it does not have some of the wow factor as its predecessors, it is still unmistakably a thoroughbred ULV sub-11" VAIO that should bring superb mobility & flexibility.

It probably worth noting that many of the past sub-11" models were phased out with no direct replacement -- UX, TT, G, P were all end of line -- while the bloodline that comes down to VZ11 never ceased, so it's a pretty safe bet that there will be a direct replacement for Z.

On the other hand, at this point we don't know the optimization philosophy is for the actual Z replacement, so there is a chance that the next Z may not be what you like -- there are still people that prefer the all-in-one Z1 over Z2/VZ11 with PMD till this day, so do keep that in mind. I personally don't think we will see a return of optical, but what other feature will Sony include or drop is too early to tell.

 

Forget whether Duo is good or not. Why not let's talk about whether you will buy Duo.
I prefer waiting for the so-called replacement for Z.
Will you? If you will wait for Z, i think Duo might be a big failure.

 

Between Duo and an expected (but not guaranteed nor well-defined) Z replacement? I'll pick Duo. I don't quite push my CPU now as I used to, and I bought my Z2 more for the weight and the screen.

 

I don't see the Duo 11 replacing the Z. Like others have said, the Duo 11 fits right in place with Sony's traditional sub notebook experiments. The only difference is that the Duo 11 is the first of these experiments to likely be a big seller. It has a lot more potential then the MS Surface Pro. IMO, the Duo 11 is an amazing device, and its taking a lot of will power for me not to jump on it immediately and to instead wait for the next gen Z, as I've only bought Z's in recent years and feel that 12.5-13.1 inches is the optimal screen size range for a full featured ultra-portable notebook, with 11.5-12.1 and 13.3 just being too small and too large.

 

There's already a separate thread (five pages long) about whether the Duo 11 is replacing the Z. tl;dr version: it's not.

As for the title: who thinks the Duo 11 is a good model, here's the first review.

Sony VAIO Duo 11 Windows 8 Laptop | Windows 8 Laptop Reviews

Ignore the rating, which focuses on the price (unfairly IMO) and the lack of a pen silo (a disappointment but not a deal-breaker) for the digitizer stylus. Battery life of 5:08 in their battery eater test isn't ideal but it's not a deal-breaker for me. The great parts are, the keyboard is good, the screen is fantastic, it stays at acceptably cool levels, and it boots in thirteen seconds (THIRTEEN). Sounds great to me.

Seriously leaning toward buying the i3 model for $1,099.

 

Anyway, we can't ignore the rating.
And please go to Cnet, they got hand-on review, which always tells the truth and you will see how crowded the keyboard is.

 

Even worse than VAIO P ?.......

 

Since the Vaio Duo 11 is 30% wider than the Vaio P, I sincerely doubt it. Width 12.6" instead of 9.6".

 

I'm very tempted. But why did they stick a blackberry style pointer on it? The thinkpad style trackpoints are much more manoeuvrable.

 

Ironically, the Thinkpad Tablet 2 has the same blackberry-style pointer on its keyboard dock instead of a traditional Thinkpad nub, so I suspect there's some rational reason, though I don't know what it is.

 

I see the advantage of a fixed angle instead of a laptop hinge for touch, stylus, or other art input. Touching the screen with a traditional laptop hinge (or an Asus Transformer-style setup) is going to cause the screen to rock back. Not here.

EDIT: It appears from Sony's website that ArtRage Studio Pro, the $60 program demonstrated above on the Duo 11, is included with the $1099 Duo 11. Also included in that price is the digitizer stylus (a replacement costs $45). Not to mention the 128 gb ssd, the 1080p IPS screen protected by gorilla glass, backlit keyboard, etc. That $1099 is a very, very good price if you're okay with an i3 instead of an i5.

 

A question and an observation:

1) Who said the Z is on "hiatus" and in any event, what makes the DUO 11 in any way appear to be a Z replacement?

2) Based on the reviews and hands-on comments I've read, the D11 is a nice first effort but hardly ready for prime time. In typical fashion it seems (I can only speculate without trying it myself) that Sony has jumped the gun to be the first out with a new format and also typically has loaded it with some over-the-top specs - eg, screen, cpu - but that doesn't make it the kind of product anyone without money to burn would pay well over $1,000 (how many $1,099 configs do you expect to find?) for a glimpse of the future but a machine that is a jack of several trades and a master of none?

One encouraging thing; with budget cuts galore in the VAIO division it is nice to see that some leading edge engineering projects are still seeing light of day. Not sure if that will continue if the products don't sell well.

 

I expect to find a LOT of $1099 configs. The $1099 config includes a backlit keyboard, 1080p screen, stylus, and 128 gb ssd...all things you're normally nickeled-and-dimed for. And the $1199 ready-to-ship model (which will probably be the best seller) has the i5 instead of i3 and 6 gb of ram instead of 4 gb. This is not something that's going to be $2000 typically-equipped. Most will sell at either $1099 base price or $1199 ready-to-ship.

All convertible tablets are jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. They're never as light and long-lasting as dedicated tablets nor as big and powerful as dedicated laptops. That's not a knock against the Duo 11 specifically, but the genre.

 

It's definitely very different - Tablet Notebook. I still like the traditional look of the Z in terms of portability. I just hope that the Z will be offered along-side this Vaio Duo.

 

A detail I just noticed. On the small keyboard, page up is fn+up arrow, page down is fn+down arrow, home is fn+left, and end is fn+right. Nice way to get those four functions integrated intuitively into such a small keyboard.

 

That's also on the VZ11/Z2, as well as many recent sub-11" VAIO such as P, X, W & E. One of the VAIO features that also dates back to 1999.

On the other hand, the spec sheet on US Sony Store does not indicate a WWAN option nor GPS capability that you can customize in Japan. A little bit disappointed on that, but Duo does get every other little things like TPM and stuff that you have to customize and pay in Japan.

 

Every review I've read raises concerns about the durability of the ribbon cable running to the screen (visible if you peek inside the slider mechanism). But doesn't every laptop use a ribbon cable to connect the screen to the base unit? It's just hidden inside the hinge instead of being visible to the user if they peek in the right place? Or am I wrong?

 

Optical touchpad is thinner than the Thinkpad style trackpoint. idk if that is the only reason, but its the one that Lenovo stated for their tablet keyboard dock thing.

 

Well put, and informative. But as a convertible tablet user for years back, I'm here to say even the good ones are a major concession. They're good second/third computers, but not daily drivers, not at the size, tiny keyboard, weird trackpad and fixed screen angle. I have nothing but optimism of improvements yet to come - and soon, because 3 months in this industry is obsolete!

 

The same complaint could be made about the Z, yet some people choose to make it their "daily driver."

I think you're looking at this wrong...I did for a long while too until I had an epiphany about the Duo 11's design. The Duo 11 has a huge trackpad...the screen. Your hands are as close to the screen as they are to the trackpad on a traditional laptop, and anything you could do with a traditional trackpad, you could do with the screen. And the fixed screen angle allows you to use touch input on the screen as much as you want without screwing up your screen angle or having the screen wobble annoyingly.

Hybrids--detachable convertibles of the Asus Transformer style--have a "touch" mode, and a "keyboard and trackpad" mode. Same with X230t-style convertibles and the XPS Duo 12. But good luck mixing touch input and keyboard input at the same time with any of those designs, thanks to the screen hinge that will make the screen wobble when you're tapping and gesturing on the screen. The Duo 11 is the first device I know of built from the ground up with the idea of using touch input and keyboard input simultaneously (the essence of Windows 8, if you will). The fixed screen angle is perfect for touch while the keyboard is deployed, the keyboard is appropriately close to the screen, etc. It's an incredibly well-thought-out design once you grasp what they were trying to accomplish with the unique form factor.

 

@Mitlov ^ ^

As usual your thoughts are well considered and articulated. I'm biased by the one review I read that Sony got all the ideas right but not necessarily the execution. That may have been too harsh a review, but we'll see once actual users get it and comment.

One thing I do need to point out, having used convertibles for some time in the past: Using the screen as your "mouse/trackpad" makes for greasy, dirty, fingerprint-laden screen, all the more visible at an angle - as compared to lying flat on a table or held at 90 degree angle as the best IPS (Thinkpad, HP) convertibles would be used. They guy who invents fingerprint-proof coating will make a fortune!

 

Call me an old fart, but I'm not convinced.

1. The built-in screen can work as a trackpad, but *only* on the built-in screen. A "daily driver" workhorse implies (to me) at least one large >22" screen and most such displays are non-touch. Also, they are mostly placed higher up and further than an arms-length away. So unless you show the same view on external and internal displays, you can't reach it.

2. Using the screen as a trackpad will give everyone neck/shoulder pains in no-time!

3. On screen pointer gestures don't have a hoover mode, so many hoover-only widgets doesn't work, some web pages I've visited on a tablet becomes unusable.

4. Text input have always been (and will always be??) the input type we spend most time using. I.e. we first decide, using mouse/trackpad/touch where the text should go, and that takes a second or perhaps five. Then you type, and that could take from a minute to hours+. It was the same discussion when desktop style GUIs came along. Will the keyboard vanish? No, it won't go away until we have an interface that lets us *think* text into a computer. I can hardly see speech recognition making the keyboard obsolete. It would be a heck of noise in offices with people chatting to their computers. Also, some types of text, such as computer code, HTML and such, are much more efficient to input via keyboard, even without taking code completion into account. Not to mention copy&paste which is probably much easier to handle using keyboard/mouse than trying to tell a computer which text to copy.

I'm actually not as negative to this Metro aspect of Windows 8 as it might sound. Sceptic, yes. But also curious.

 

"Compromised too much" can be perfectly referred to DUO 11.
Sony tries to put all the characteristics from laptops and ultrabooks together; however, they just compromise too much for them.
And most websites commented DUO 11 as an exact failure, though they didn't really want to say that.
I highly suggest going to visit some websites and watch the hand-on video; you will see much more flaws

 

If that's your intended usage, can't you plug in a USB mouse at the same time you plug in the external monitor?

Regardless, this is a somewhat specialized use. Most people I know don't use external monitors.

Why is it any less ergonomic than using a traditional trackpad on a traditional ultraportable laptop? I don't see any reason for increased neck or shoulder pain when you have the trackpad above the keyboard instead of below.

Stylus, perhaps? I'll experiment with this if I get one, since I suspect there's some solution.

Good thing the Duo 11 has a keyboard always at the ready! This issue is actually a reason why convertible tablets are a much better solution for mobile productivity than either slates plus bluetooth keyboard (iPad) or hybrids (all the Asus Transformer-style designs). They don't abandon the keyboard as a primary input device. Yet unlike traditional ultraportable laptops like the MacBook Air and Vaio Z, it's feasible to also get use out of them while standing or walking (in slate mode, with touchscreen or stylus input).

 

Yes, of course, but my point is that it breaks the metro style interaction. If metro style interaction doesn't work for multiple screens, I think many people will avoid it. As you said, multiple screen may be less common than I think. But actually, there's not a single work station at my current office that doesn't consist of one laptop and at least one large screen connected via a dock station.

Because the trackpad is placed where there's a hand *rest*. To reach the whole trackpad, you only need to lift your fingers while your palm rests on the palm rest. To reach the whole screen, you probably need to lift your whole arm from the shoulder. Perhaps you could rest your elbow on the table but that would limit your mobility somewhat. Such static strains on the shoulder for longer periods are killers, ask any person that knows anything about ergonomics.

Perhaps, but isn't a stylus also like any finger on a tablet, digital? Either you touch the screen or you don't? Or is there some pressure limit that is interpreted as a click, as opposed to movement?

I saw a documentary the other day about the tradition of eating hot dogs (in Sweden). It was considered rude to eat it while walking. Perhaps it will be more common to do that with computers too, at least for some tasks, not the tasks I do though.

 

So is your complaint about Windows 8, or the Duo 11's hardware? As to the former, this isn't the thread to debate whether Windows 8 works well with multimonitor setups. As for the latter, I just don't see people springing for an entire docking station/external monitor setup but not wanting to spend $49 for a mouse.

I've tried placing my hands on the home keys ( asdf jkl; ) and operating the touchpad without moving the heel of my palm. It's painfully awkward. I have always moved my entire hand down to use the touchpad; my hand rests so that the front edge of the laptop bisects my palm while using the touchpad. That allows me to use the touchpad without a sharp side-bend at the wrist.

EDIT: Your hand is still well below the shoulder when touching the screen, which as I recall is the critical issue for the rotator cuff's health.

EDIT 2: Artist's easels don't have an elbow-rest or a palm-rest, and people work on them for lengthy periods of time. I'd be surprised if this setup caused the severe ergonomic pain you describe, but I'll volunteer as a guinea pig.

Like I said, I'll investigate. I don't use the hover functionality a lot...I guess to adjust autocorrected text in MS Word, but that's it.

EDIT: the optical trackpoint will allow you to hover when you need to.

It's not "rude" for a lawyer to move around a courtroom while presenting to a judge or jury; iPads are currently the dominant tool for this, but a convertible tablet could be even better because you could just unfold the keyboard at counsel table if the judge starts giving a ruling and you need to get it down. Similarly, there's nothing rude about a salesperson or businessperson walking around a boardroom while giving a presentation instead of being tied to his/her seat.

It's a specialized product for certain types of workflows. Everyone is different though. It's not going to eliminate all other sorts of products, just like ultrabooks didn't eliminate mobile workstations, right? I was just explaining how this is objectively the most practical hardware design for certain workflows, not that it's the ONE solution that's right for EVERYBODY. There is no one solution that's right for everybody.

 

I would agree here. As someone who has basically bought laptops from Japan, the $1499 configuration has most of the customizable options available there. The US isn't getting the top processor, but the difference between 1.9/3.0 and 2.0/3.2 is negligible. I wish I could do things like NOT get the TPM and the additional S-Master options are nice, but for the price - ESPECIALLY considering how much the old T series (T, TX, TT) sold for in premium configurations ($3-$4k+), this really is pretty fairly priced.

BTW, I'm also with Mitlov. I love my Panasonic J10, which is arguably the last true ultraportable. Can't beat it for power to size ratio (full processor, 16GB of memory, etc.), and now that it's on its way out in Japan, anything with power is bigger (the SX2/NX series is 12.1").

This for me wouldn't replace the J10. The Panasonic AX2 is intriguing, but no digitizer/pen input and the foldover design with the keyboard on the bottom scares me a bit. When I go to Tokyo I'm going to look at it. But the Sony solves some issues I've been trying to solve that old Tablet PCs didn't do well IMO I present a lot, and wanted something akin to an electronic blackboard. With the proper digitizer and pen input, along with the small and light size, this will work. I can mark up PPTs or draw - that's what mainly sold me from the initial videos.

Also, the inclusion of the VGA port (also seen on the AX2), is crucial for someone like me. Those complaining about it don't present often clearly - HDMI is NOT a standard in the business world yet.

Since one of the memory slots is expandable, I'm curious to see if I pop an 8GB SO-DIMM in there if I can get it to 12GB. If so, I can even run a lot of my VMs, too. I did that back in the old days with the G - the ULV processor isn't the issue there.

The fixed screen angle is fine, and the keyboard is much like the old X. The fact that it's an optical nub works for me. I don't need the trackpad (but I have to say Panasonic's round one is brilliant and another reason I'm hesitant on the AX2).

Unless you're rooting around for the ribbon cable, I don't think the design will be an issue. I'd buy the ADH anyway, so even if it is a problem, it'd get fixed.

Just my $.02. The Duo isn't for everyone, but it's ticking all of my boxes. And the price point is less than the 1TB OCZ SSD I bought this year. What's not to like?

EDIT: One thing I should mention: the AX2 will be easier to upgrade (SSD at least) than the Sony. So that is a consideration here at work. Like I said, I'm not looking to replace my J.

EDIT 2: Just priced the AX2 Premium edition - WOW. Almost 270,000 yen (as of today, about $3400) for a very similar config to the Duo. VERY disappointing.

 

That's really not surprising, though. Panasonic pretty much has monopoly in that market segment. Isn't there a Lenovo one that is similar to AX2, but at maybe 13"?

 

Actually, it is. In the days of the T/TX/TT maybe I'd expect that but the SX/NX series which is just *slightly* bigger (12.1 vs. 11.6) and not tablet are the same price with more memory and better processors. I would have expected $2200, maybe $2500 equivalent but not over $3k. Pricing the Japanese Duo 11 I was even getting around $2200 for the config I was looking at.

I have had three Let's Note laptops from Japan (S9, J9, J10), but I can't in good conscious mind pay nearly $3400 for that config.

 

I've preordered a Duo 11 in the base configuration (i3, 128 gb ssd, 4 gb ram, for $1,099). I'll do a review when it arrives. Any questions in particular people want me to address?

 

^
What's the ETA?

 

Open it up and see if there are GPS and noise canceling board inside?

Seriously, though, Hulu 480p full screen and some other 720p/1080p video on full screen in Chrome vs. IE. Chrome and Flash have not been playing nice recently. Make me wonder if ULV i3 can handle some of the weird CPU usage spike.

 

Ships on 10/26/12 (Windows 8 release date) with free two-day shipping, so I'm betting Monday, 10/29/12 will be arrival.

Will do.

 

Just ordered my Duo 11 - the i7 version. Should be here a week from Monday ...

 

Wow. Now you two are officially NBR Sony forum's "Pre-order Duo" (not very funny, I know, but have to)

 

You guys were discussing hovering over links. Every active stylus on a windows tablet I've ever used allows you to hover the stylus a cm or so from the screen and you get a floating cursor.

Am I crazy... i.e. am I the only one who's considering giving up his Vaio Z for the Duo 11? Granted I have the VPCZ1, so the last of the non-PMD all in one Vaio Zs, so I'd be giving up older hardware then you guys with the VPCZ2/3s. But with no upgrade path to Win8, and my love of OneNote, I think the Duo is the tablet PC that I've always been looking for. I'll miss the roomy 13.1 inch screen for SURE, but maybe I'll just pick up a large external monitor for when I want the extra workspace.

Is it confirmed that the Duo 11 runs a low voltatage CPU? How would the i7 quad core ultra low voltage compare with an older dual core i5?

 

Yes, it's confirmed. By the way, all ULV CPUs are dual-core, not quad-core, even the i7's. Dual-core regular-voltage Ivy Bridge end with a -M, ultra-low voltage models end with a -U, and quad-core regular-voltage CPUs end with a -QM. Note the CPU designations of my F23 (designates a quad-core) and Duo 11 (designates a ULV model).

Someone else might know of reliable benchmarks for each CPU; I suspect they do just fine against older hardware.

 

Hmm so the Sony spec page is wrong about the Duo having a quad core CPU?
VAIO Duo 11 Ultrabook Laptop | Windows 8 Touchscreen Ultrabook Computer | Sony Store USA

I got so excited about this thing I actually ordered the i7 while waiting for a response

 

Sony's page isn't wrong. It refers to the i3, i5, and i7 as "dual-core," and each of their model designations ends in a U (i3-2317U, i5-3317U, and i7-3517U). So these are all low-voltage dual-core models. Where are you getting that these are quad-core models and/or not ULV?

 

Ahh, so the page is wrong... It contradicts itself. At the top of the page under the bullet points it says "3rd gen quad core Intel® Core™ i7 processor available", and near the middle of the page it references dual core processors when comparing the different models.

 

...wow, you're right. Yeah, that's bogus, all the processors are ULV dual-core.

A quad-core full-voltage i7 in that form factor...you could boil eggs on it.

 

Not sure about that. I am currently using the Panasonic J10 which has the full i7-2620M (yes, not quad core) but it's never hot. So putting a full processor in a 10.1" (which this is) can be done if you design it right. It's not paper thin, but that's OK. I was hoping Panasonic would finally put the QM in the J and bump its specs for Windows 8, but alas. They released the AX2 instead.

 

I don't think you're crazy. I'm considering the same thing (Or maybe that means I'm crazy too). It does look exactly what I need, but the reviews of ite are very disappointing. I'm looking forward to Mitlov's views on it.

Mitlov - particularly interested to hear your views on the useability of the optical mouse and the keyboard, whether the speakers are any good (or just as terrible as the Vaio Z) and how noisy the fan is. Thanks!

 

The reviews are really disappointing, not just b/c they give the Duo bad marks all around, but because it seems like the reviewers have no idea what a machine like this is for. It seemed before they wanted to compare Tablet PCs to iPads, and now they want to compare them to ultrabooks. And in both comparisons, they completely miss the point of owning a tablet PC. Hell they never even review the inking experience. Nonetheless the bad scores are making me reconsider my pre-order for the Core i7, but I already know that no other device currently on the market is the right device for me... with the slight exception of the Surface Pro, but I feel that the Duo is a stronger offering in all areas but weight.

 

I too preordered a fully equipped Core i7 Vaio Duo 11 model with 3 year ADH warranty with case and screen protector for $1900...Will also review when I receive the product.

I saw many reviews that show this product is bad, but like the poster above, the reviewers can't really pinpoint anything that is wrong with it, but only says that the battery life isn't good and that the hinge may be prone to breaking after repeated use (that's why I got the 3 year warranty with ADH.) The only thing that could potentially turn me off using this product is the lack of a trackpad (can be substituted using touch screen), lack of a palm rest, and only one screen angle. Otherwise I would not have any regrets while purchasing. The reviewers don't understand the point of owning a tablet PC- I can do presentations with the pen and marking notes (very useful.) The problem here is that this is a dramatic shift than what we were used to before (traditional laptop with trackpad,) so there will be many that criticize these new hybrid tablet/ultrabook designs.

I will provide a review later. I currently own a 2011 Macbook Air Core i7 with 256gb SSD and 4GB ram, and will be monitoring how well I adapt to this new Sony Vaio Duo 11. The funny thing is, people criticize the bad battery life on the Duo and say that it only reaches around 4 hours of use. With my Macbook Air with a claim of 5 hour of battery life, I only get about maximum 3 hours of use.

 

Just have to say, the Duo might be a great machine for some purposes, like presentations, taking notes and one hand computing. But I think you should stop confusing people into thinking it can replace a Z! The Z is a powerful desktop replacement laptop and can support a work load that perhaps most people don't require. People who think the Duo can replace their Z haven't used the full potential of the Z to begin with.

 

Desktop replacement? We're talking about the difference between a 13.1" 1080p screen and an 11.6" 1080p screen. I associate the DTR title with 17" machines with quad-core CPUs and onboard GPUs and massive cooling systems, not an ultraportable 13" machine with a full-voltage i5.

And the difference between a full-voltage laptop i5 and a ULV laptop i5 is indeed a performance difference, but for many people is not a deal-breaker. Compare a MBP 13 and MBA 13, and people will point out that the MBP's full-voltage i5 is more powerful, but I've never once heard someone say that you are unable to do tasks on the MBA 13 that you can do on the MBP 13. It just takes longer to do some high-performance stuff.