What has happened to Sony leadership, ingenuity and support?

First, I am a longtime Sony Vaio SZ owner. I have owned three of them over the last six years and I am/was getting ready to purchase another.

I am sorry, but the soon to be released Sony Z is not a 'game changing' computer. It is nowhere near on the level of ingenuity of previous Sony SZ type computers. It certainly is not significantly different from other makers offerings.

Another example, the Sony P. What happened? Sony entered the Netbook arena way late and then with TONS of fanfare entered at the 2008 CES with the P and it has flopped.

I want to purchase a new Sony, but I am feeling sabotaged, neglected and not supported by Sony. I don't know why I have to have a Sony Memory Gate slot foisted on me instead of a third USB port or commonly accepted memory format.

Sony's online support for their models is turning into a laughing stock. They support models with driver updates and software support for about a year and then you are on your own. As someone familiar with computers this may not be a big deal for me, but how do they encourage new customers with the sub par user interface.

I want to buy a Sony, but I must admit, as my current SZ starts dying, I will look at other brands and for the first time in six years, may try other waters.

 

Well,
Sony has the wrong people up on top. They are making some of the worst business decsions on many of their products. Sony has lost most of its market share by being lazy, changing formats, using proprietary technologies that no one adopts, etc. ATRAC, BETACAM, MS, MS DUO micro etc. Hey Sony you have some of the most talented engineers in the business. Put them to good use and also hire a young innovator to help with your marketing. If not you will end up on the bottom and go under...

 

Name another 13" ultraportable that the competiton is offering that is like the new Z, also have you even experienced the new Z or are you just griefing?

 

No I have not 'test driven' a new Z.

But what from the product description am I looking at that is earth shattering. Heck it does not ship standard with a Blue Ray. Sony made their reputation through the CD and now they won't put their new format on their flagship Laptop as a standard item.

I have been dying to buy a Sony P since their advent for my wife, but they are just not that capable compared to the competition for their price.

 

IMO I totally agree, I mean as of right now you can see Sony is coming out with several budget friendly Models, but as people say they dont have as much support or attention and quality as their top end models. Sony was(maybe still is) known for their Quality in products and to stand out from the rest of the crowd, and with that they should have top class support. Even thought I'm venturing out to buy a new laptop, nothing in the world compares to my SZ, it may not be the SZ6/7 but its close enought and thats what matters to me. I'm even thinking of buying an SZ7 as a new PC because I love the form factor overall. If Sony upgraded the SZ and added up to date technology, CPU, GPU etc.. i would buy the SZ every single time over any other model.
If you look at the W series, other netbook companies have full Windows 7 Home Premium, and updated models coming with the new Dual core Atome or with nVidia ION(and now ION2) while Sony is still stick with XP/Win7 Starter and N270 Atom CPU. and when was the P series last upgraded? When it was first heard about everyone was like wow maybe there is a reason Sony took so long to enter the netbook market, with a PC that actually fits in your pocket, I mean Sony is known for coming up with leading technology and tech advances going to new heights with their products, but gradually Sony is making ALOT of wrong turns.....not all, but a few too many.
I actually like the new Z series, I mean Sony came up with a new Quad SSD and made the new Z lighter than the old Z while being 4-5x more powerful, only if Great support came with its great products.....

 

You can configure it with BluRay writer if you need it. I am personally happy that BluRay writer is not standard, as I don't need it and it would unnecessarily make the price higher.
What I miss a bit though is the option of a DVD writer with BluRay reading ability for a more decent price (BluRay writer option costs almost US$1000 in Europe).

I don't know what you don't like about the Z (especially compared to the SZ). As Mikazukinoyaiba said, currently there is no alternative to the Z (considering size,weight and features).

For me, the Z is the most attractive laptop currently and I'll buy one in the next few months. I'll just wait for user reviews to see if it has any issues.
Threre are two things I don't like about it though:
-the RAID SSDs (Having one large and decent SSD with TRIM would be way better)
-not having the option of a 1366x768 screen

 

I second that, there is no laptop in that range that can compare to the Z, and yes Blu Ray should be an option, a couple makes a huge amount of difference for some us, like me, I never intend to use Blu ray and dont want to pay extra for it, I rather have a DVD writer and keep the price as low as i can or maybe use the extra hundred to upgrade other parts such as the hard drive or CPU, thats why its an option, but I understood what you were getting at pwaggs

 

Hi pwaggs,

I would certainly encourage you to look at other brands even if you weren't so disillusioned by Sony. It's the competition which makes everyone improve. I have 4 VAIOs. Two of them are SZs.
I just keep coming back to Sony because the rest couldn't give me what I want. It's just like Nokia...for ages I have been trying so hard to find a replacement brand and nobody else made the cut until the iPhone came along.

The new Z is actually amazing to me...if you hadn't taken a closer look at it yet, the key difference is in the graphics card. This is a true hardware graphics card with dedicated memory and very decent performance compared to the current solutions out there in the market.

It also comes with 3 USBs, which is a big thing to me. The Sony Z doesn't just have a memory slot...it also comes with SD slots. I have helped so many friends whose computers didn't come with any form of slots at all with my current Z when it came to copying data out of their cards.

When it comes to customer support, my experience with Sony's web support is that it is worse than Dell or Apple. The biggest support I have ever gotten for every single one of my VAIOs is this website called www.notebookreview.com

 

The Sony P is a joke. I was laughing at the whole concept the moment I saw it launch in Tokyo last year.

But the Z is a different beast altogether.

If extreme-portables [1 - 2 pounds ] is your consideration, you can either look at the other netbooks, the iTab or move up the chain to ultraportables [ 2 - 3 pounds ] and look at the Z for which there is no other alternative in the world for its class of features and power.

 

I'm not sure what else you expect from the Z. It is a class leading notebook.
It is a combination of the weight, high res display, storage space and specs.
There is nothing quite like it out there.
There is always room for advancement as that is technology for you but right now Sony has it pretty spot on.
I just wish it was 13.3 as i would buy one without a doubt. I'm only saying that as i own a 11.1 2.8lbs TT.

 

You are correct, Sony P is a joke, Sony UMPC is a joke, Sony memory stick is a joke, Sony Clie was a joke, Sony Universal MiniDisk is a joke.

Now we have a case of Sony saying that they are giving us a state of the art laptop which is gimped from the get go with the SSD setup, optical disk configuration and just guessing, but probably a memory gate again.

Why?

I am looking forward to test driving, but if it were not for the fact that my current SZ is dying (Fan to be replaced tomorrow to try and buy a few more months), I would have not problem holding out for some USB 3.0 variation down the pipeline or next implementation of SSD's on this thing. In the thread on this page, configurations are exceeding 4K.

 

Wow, so much Sony hate with no good reason. The P is a fantastic device. It has a super high res screen, with a keyboard that is just right. It weighs nothing and has a decent battery life. People are saying the competition does better, but no one makes anything like the P. If I didn't have larger fingers and bad eyes I would get a P over any other generic 10inch netbook out there.

The SZ was great, but I don't think you can compare to the Z series. The SZ was 13.3 and weighed around 2kgs. The Z have always been 1.5 or less. The SZ is more like the SR, which is now the underwhelming S. My disappointment is not with the rest of the series (which I think is pretty good,other then the huge amount of products) but with the weakness of the current S. I know I am asking a lot, but why can't you make a Z for the masses and call it the S. Similar insides, but lower res screen and heavier weight. The S should have had a better screen, better battery and better graphics card. Then the range would have been perfect.

 

Not significantly different? Are we talking about the same Z model here?

Please name all the other "common" models that have the same power, HYBRID graphics, 1080p resolution in a 13" screen, size, weight, 3-6hr battery life, design and other specs etc as the Z?

 

I've been a Sony supporter, and as much as I'd hate to say it, they are a bleeding company. The higher-ups are making mistakes after mistakes, and we do see that with companies like Samsung and LG doing a quick catch-up to them.

But since this is a subject on lappies...

I'll be frank like the few before me; there is NO lappie that can compare to the revised Z, spec-wise. I'm still waiting on the early-bird reviews from people who have bit the bullet and pre-ordered one, especially in regards to TurboBoost, heat-management, and overall build quality. And at the risk of apple-lovers spamming me, the current (old) Z are a pretty direct match for the MacBook Pros (with the exception of hybrid GPUs). The new Z, blows both out of the water with a hydrogen bomb....

So, depending on how the new Z turns out with users, I'll judge whether to continue with Sony or not. From the new gen lappies (F, S and what-not), my opinion is still mixed, closer to the bad-side though...

 

Actually it is completely unique. Other competing offerings fall short in at least one major area - no built-in optical drive, no discrete graphics, no full-power CPU, no high resolution screen, not lightweight. The Z is the only one to offer everything.

The new Z has 3 USB ports (unless you're in an area that allows you to swap one for an iLink) and an SD memory card slot. The problem is...?

Well, this is true. Fortunantly folks do find workarounds (ie. I'm using a BIOS on my first-gen SZ designed for the fourth-gen).

By all means look around - that's what I've been doing for the last 18 months. My SZ is over 4 years old now. And if you like the SZ concept, you're going to find yourself coming back to the new Z regardless of your feelings. I looked absolutely everywhere and there is nothing that compares. The new Z is honestly the closest thing I have ever seen to what I would personally consider the perfect notebook.

 

Sony do may things wrong...but the Z isn't really the obvious weak point, bit bizarre to pick on that model. Even the P occupies a unique space, which to me is really what Sony are all about.

Bear in mind Sony have always been a 'lifestyle' brand, and that's where there focus continues to be. The marketing spend contributes to the premium price - that's just their modus operandi. The business model is driven from Japan in a way 'top-down' manner that seems bizarrely confusing to the rest of the world (see also: Asus). The hardware is all contracted-out, hence why Sony support is so frustratingly ignorant.

But as has been stated, there remains little alternative. HP and Dell throw out a few nice models, but they don't have the style or miniaturisation prowess that Sony are known for.

Savvy users accept that Sony is unlikely to become consumer-reactive anytime soon, despite massive warning shots that have been fired in recent years.

 

*laugh*

Army of Z lovers here.

I LUUUUURRRRVVVVEEE the Z.

Seriously pwaggs, I reckon if you picked on just about any other model of the VAIOs, you wouldn't have so many people coming to the defense of the "closest to perfect" notebook called the Z series.

Take a closer look at it honestly.

All the criticisms you have appear to me as if you clicked on a totally wrong product as so many of the other friends here have very quickly explained.

 

And if I may add.
Prior to the Z, there was no other notebook like the Z either.

Put it this way, I had the top of the end SZ for less than a year when the Z1XX was launched and bought the Z.

And the SZ was already to me, one of the best notebooks out there in the market.

The Z is a game changer...and they've somehow outdone themselves again with this refresh. I wasn't impressed with the Z2 - Z4 until this refresh came along.

 

Sony seems to be following a 2-year complete redesign phase (SZ -> 2 years -> Z -> 2 years -> New Z), with frequent minor refreshes in-between, perhaps every 3-4 months.

However with the refreshes none of the major components change, just the OS, storage, memory, CPU and chipset. So, for example, don't expect USB 3 or SATA 6.0 until Intel builds them right into the chipset.

 

I Agree with your comments , look at my post history it has got the same arguments. gizmodo has even made an article about Sony becoming more irrelevant. http://gizmodo.com/5477633/how-sony-lost-its-way

why have sony moved from simple product lines such as the the TZ SZ and FZ to a sea of cannibalistic niche crap that confuses the consumer?
Currently worldwide dominant Apple has got 3 product lines mac/pro/air why does sony need 11+?

A few pointless sony notebooks

CW- shouldn't exist.competes with the Vaio E and NW .
Y- overpriced Asus UL80Vt culv clone minus G210M.
x- $1300 netbook 2GB ram 64gb hd with atom processor.
P- $849 for a 8 inch netbook?sony forgets that $259 netbooks exist .




Another argument criticizing the over hyped Z. It has few rivals because who else would want to dominate the niche overpriced <$2200-$3000> 13 inch market?
Another z rant. No bluray? this is 2010 sony having been offering bluray in notebooks for years now, they pioneered the blu ray spec but they still don't fit them to their $2500+ notebooks as standard?
also enjoy the 68 minute battery life.

 

I disagree about the CW being useless and competing with the NW series, the NW series has a significantly larger screen that hinders portability while a 14" notebook with some gaming capabilities fills the niche of "student notebook" perfectly, if you're not convinced why don't you take a look at the CW owners thread.

Comparing the Y-series to another company's product as an example of how "cannibalistic" Sony's product line is really is a terrible argument. Is the Zune HD pointless because there is the Ipod Touch?

The Y-series is the only thing of its kind in Sony's lineup, can't blame them for cashing into the ULV market and frankly I'm thankful.

X - I agree, it does fill a rather odd niche.

P - There is no netbook in the market that is comparable to the P-series, you may not have an interest but it really is a netbook that satisfies those who would benefit from that form factor.

Don't confuse "I'm not interested" with "this is a pointless product".

Also the new Z-series does have Blu-Ray and its batter life is over 5 hours if you would look at laptop mag's review of the Z-series:
http://www.laptopmag.com/review/laptops/sony-vaio-z.aspx

Check your facts

 

Only because it is PERFECT for the signature $4500 model or near-PERFECT for the $2k base price CTO model.

Believe me, I've owned the XPS line and considered going Macbook Pro. The Envy is a joke. If I could choose the 1080p in the US CTO store, I would've bought it by now. That would be super ideal! There's nothing that compares to the Z.

Apple is doing a refresh on their Macbook Pro's. I doubt they will be able to compare. Plus, Macbook Pro LED LCD screens aren't as good in color gamut as your average generic CCFL desktop LCD (search Rob Galbraith's site). The Z's LED LCD covers 96% gamut? Good enough for my photography!

 

I agree that there are a bit too much laptops in the Vaio line up. I have the impression that a few years ago the line up made more sense and was more easily understandable.

From your post I have the feeling that you don't like the expensive Vaio models. I think those are the products which make Vaio more than just another laptop brand. You can get all those N, NW, E, I don't know what "budget" models from other manufacturers as well. The quality will be probably similar. But the more expensive models all have something attractive about them. I wouldn't buy a Vaio X or P, but I think they are not useless models. The X has a very good build quality and weighs almost nothing and the P is a netbook which a woman can take with her in a smaller handbag. They are just something different and interesting. In my opinion Vaio is good at the higher-end models and average on the lower-end models.

That niche market of the Z made the Japanese Vaio servers go offline due to the amount of orders. The preorder models in e.g. Hong Kong (someone in the forum said) were gone in a day. It is the model which generates the most interest in the Vaio lineup. Furthermore, the 13" category is very popular lately. So this is anything but a niche market (e.g. the P had a niche market).
The BluRay topic was already discussed on the first page of this thread. If you need it, order it.
68 minutes battery life is under full load. This kind of usage rarely happens for an extended period of time, especially not when on batteries. Take into consideration that the Z has powerful hardware, which, if put under heavy load, needs lots of power. As a comparison, the MacBook Pro 13 with C2D P8700 lasted for 93 mins and the Dell Studio XPS 13 with C2D P9500 for 75 mins. Now, the Z with its i7-620M did probably more work in those 68 mins, than the others in 93 or 75 mins. I'm not saying that the Z has a good battery life, but it doesn't have a bad battery life either.

 

I use the Sony Vaio P for my work and its been a lifesaver, my other laptop is a Sony Vaio FW which is a beast and I wouldn't dream of tugging that around with me, the P is designed for web browsing and work on the go and I feel it was a very good investment, due to its small size its a pleasure to carry around, its like the size of a small portable DVD player and weights about the same, love it.

 

It's not 96% coverage. It's 96% the size.
It's skewed towards the magenta end, and you will still lack mostly the same shades as before, especially towards the green end of the spectrum (where our eyes are also the most sensitive, and we if anything need more coverage, not less).

 

Who needs 1080p on a small screen laptop? What are you going to propose next? BluRay on iPods? lol...

3-6 hour battery life isn't exactly ground shattering, either...

 

TRIM isn't the end-all, be-all.

http://anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3667&p=3

And I just found out these SSDs use the cheaper MLC technology. For the price of these laptops, I expect a lot more.

Maybe sometime in your lifetime that will happen. lol...

 

I don't think we will ever need batteries to have a weeks worth on a charge. Rarely would you ever be away from a power source that long.

I can understand wanting all day battery life or hey, maybe 24 hour battery life. Not a week long though, often you'll reach an outlet by then.

 

Hi GWT,

Yes, TRIM makes a major difference.
Anand clearly stated in the article you linked that he would not go near an SSD without TRIM. In fact, he was the one who made it well known to the world about how the lack of TRIM kills all the advantages an SSD has.

What he was saying in the page you linked merely tells you how to overcome software/driver limitations of TRIM. If your SSD doesn't have TRIM, you're still screwed. It's stated in the earlier pages of the article.

 

I consider TRIM a band aid for manufacturers to avoid using the more expensive SLC technology.

With these Z series laptops hitting 4k, I expect the best available technology to be put in them. It's not happening here.

 

I use SZ too, and i don't consider Z as replacement at all. The problem for me is its smaller screen size, on paper there isn't much difference indeed, but when you see Z in reality it clearly has smaller screen, for someone used to SZ it's too small imo.

As a side note...
I recently seen Thinkpad X301 and i loved it.. Screen is 13.3, same as on my SZ4, but laptop is actually much slimmer and lighter than SZ (1.5 kg) And they somehow managed to squeeze dvd burner in there ...

If only Sony would release something like X301...

 

SLC drives get saturated and benefit from TRIM just as much as MLC drives do.

 

But a SLC drive you can just overwrite like a hard drive right? Since each cell stores a single bit there's no need to do the expensive block copy and erase operation that MLC drives need so the need for TRIM is negated. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

That's exactly why MLC is inferior to SLC. Not to mention, the read/write lifespan isn't as long.

Yeah, they spend time with TRIM because Sony (and others) want to charge you premium prices while giving people less than premium equipment. That's why they charge $1,000 for a 512GB MLC-SSD when you can get a good mechanical 500GB 7200rpm for 1/10th the price that will last you just as long.

And it wouldn't be surprised at all if 6 months to a year after you buy one of these, the performance on 'em starts to decline dramatically.

Like I said, if I pay premium prices, I want the best.

 

No, you need an erase operation for SLC too. The difference between SLC and MLC is that MLC stores several possible states per bit, while SLC only stores one. You still need to erase the bit before it's written to, and this is done in larger blocks (because they can then be erased in parallel, reducing latency).

SLC is far faster and more reliable (commonly an order of magnitude higher MTBF), but at the expense of far less storage per unit. The usefulness of garbage collection and TRIM is the same, although with SLC being faster to start with, the impact of a saturated SLC drive isn't as bad as for an MLC drive.

 

Yes and people used to have to wind their wristwatches every morning. Nowadays we expect to change our watch battery once every 5-10 years.

I used to own a calculator that wouldn't go a whole day without a recharge, just like modern laptops (anyone fondly remember LED readouts?)

In the horse and buggy days you expected to have to feed your horse regularly . Now we don't expect to refuel our cars but once a week, typically.

(I could go on and on...)

I would definitely pay to have a laptop I don't have to worry about charging.

I expect and await the day I can do so (on my 2020 model Z)

 

And don't forget Blu-Ray and CD (two more sony backed things that will NEVER catch on)

 

I don't think all of your comparisons are valid.

-Winding clocks, of course naturally we don't want to have to wind clocks to maintain them.

- Horse and buggy (really? You're comparing battery charges to that now?)

- Calculators that don't even last a day without recharge, I didn't even know calculators had to be recharged. I'd just buy and change batteries.

Notebooks however are computers, they are a device for entertainment or business. Therefore, most likely within a 24 hour period you're going to have access to a power outlet as you'd want to work on a desk optimally.

With that said, 24 hours is the minimum battery life with the most versatility. Would I complain about a week long battery? Of course not, but would I really not have access to a power outlet for over an entire week?

Of course not.

 

My point is that in all of those times, I have had to listen to people like YOU saying exactly what you are saying now.

I will make a bet that In a few years when everyone (yes including YOU) expects 1 week and we are all wondering when 1 year recharges are coming, YOU will be the one arguing, on this same forum, maybe on this very thread, that 1 week is perfect but 1 year why, that would be overkill, no one needs THAT!

(ok I will admit that even I was not around in the horse and buggy days, you caught me on that one)

 

wait

you are old enough to have seen wind up watches

I think that's the most important and more interesting thing to discuss

Edit: NVM, I see that you were joking about that one.

 

No, wind up watches I definitely had (I'm 51, you do the math) . Digital watches weren't invented until the 70's and they weren't all that good at first, so maybe mid to late 70's before the switch over.

 

How much of the technology that Sony has developed was in fact better than what the alternatives were...in which case we could just blame consumers. If not than at least Sony is trying to develop new technology which can't be said for some companies.