Z1 Slow Boot Times

(This is a continuation of the long-closed thread, http://forum.notebookreview.com/sony/484384-sony-vpc-z11-slow-post.html because when I asked for advice everyone referred me to it and i found it never really did come to a conclusion!

It's simple: Quite a few Z1 owners are experiencing delays of up to 20 seconds in booting from cold while a black screen with a fast blinking cursor comes between the BioS screen and the Windows boot up. Seems like the numbers of these cursor blinks range from around 10 to 28, and each blink takes about 3/4 second - ie, 28 "blinks" = 21 seconds' delay.

(It seems to affect any SSD configs, but not all, and possibly worse on Z11s w/Samsungs than 12/13s with Toshibas, though there is only anecdotal evidence for this.)

There have been many, many thingss tried over a year ago when the phenomenon was first discovered and little was determined to eliminate it reliably. It seems to be a structural (software) problem with blame shifting between Sony, Intel and Microsoft.

Have a peruse at the old, now closed thread, but know that no one has addressed this - to my knowledge - recently, and I was hoping maybe someone has done so and just not widely published it.

Though experiences do vary, here are some of the most common conditions:

1) Only cold/hibernate boots are affected, and, at least for this thread, only the delay of the black screen with the blinking cursor is of interests.

2) No other performance specs are effected. This does not appear to correlate with again SSDs showing their TRIM-less age (it was first noticed when people had their first Z's for only weeks), and Zs with this boot delay are generally operating at full as-new spec in every other respect.

3. Nothing obvious - or easy! - has proven to take care of the problem. Some more complex approaches - essentially breaking the RAID, doing a clean install, re-creating the RAID, seemed to help some.

4. Niether a straight clean W7 install nor a restore to factory settings take away the problem.

5. Doesn't seem to be a problem with any new Z; eg, I recently had two new Z13s (256GB, 128GB) that both booted up in under 30 secs, and that was with all the Sony Bloatware still installed.

4. Seems like maybe the problem is worse with the Z11 (Samsung SSDs) than the 12/12 (Toshiba), but not confirmed.

5. New BIOS flash and change of boot order and BIOS has no effect.

Anyone with some NEW ideas?

 

Well, you're 1) kinda doesn't make sense because you only POST when you hibernate or turn off your computer (which hibernate is techincally doing)

Also, I thought this was attributed to either the controllers on the drives or possibly the RAID controller on the motherboard.

Either way, this is something you aren't going to fix with any software because essentially what is happening is that your motherboard is taking time to make sense of your RAIDed drives. As such, things like degraded performance due to lack of TRIM which implies that you can already read from the disks don't make sense as an explanation. Also, things like reinstalling windows and Sony bloatware should have no effect. Things like breaking into JBOD *might* have an effect depending on the problem.... BIOS flash probably wont help as the problem is most likely within the SSD controller or the RAID controller itself. So the only thing that will affect the RAID controllers is if you "turn it off" by breaking your array then "turning it back on" by recreating your array. Either way, i wouldn't count on much. Luckily for me, I've only 8-9 blinks before i hit the windows screen, but I must agree it sucks to be one of those with 28-30 blinks (i remember when this problem was a LOT more common... kinda like the black screen + buzz noise when playing youtube HD videos... now I sound like an old-timer )

 

I posted this because the subject hasn't been discussed on this forum for almost 2 years, and thought someone might have some new info. This is not the end of the world: one of the fastest laptops in existence takes an extra 15-20 seconds to boot from cold, still re-starts from sleep in 3 secs. and otherwise blows the doors off all others.

Sorry if it frustrates you ^ if I had to go offline shortly after posting; my router went down and a 10 minute downtime ensued.

Did you have any new suggestions, other than breaking/re-creating the RAID? Zoinks did that way back and said it took 15 secs off his boot time, but slowly the "blinks" came back.

I'm still trying to find out if this is more of a problem with Z11s than 12/13 models. Thoughts?

 

Ok here is my Z13.... VAIO Z Bootup... - YouTube

this one is the toshiba ssd ofc.. so yea i don't think it's slow. i also disabled that raid screen

mine takes a while because in that video i have alot of usb devices plugged in (3 hubs) all through the express card interface on a usb 3.0 ec =P

 

Thanks. Yeah, you have NONE of that blinking cursor delay.

Does anyone with a Z12 or Z13 have the blinking cursor delay? Does anyone with a Z11 NOT have the blinking cursor delay?

 

I restarted 3 times. With my 2x64GB SSDs, I get about 7 blinks.

 

I remember getting the delay after doing a fresh Windows install (long time ago), so I did it again but this time broke the raid, installed on a 64GB C volume (so just one of the four drives) and then used the Intel RST tools to convert to a RAID array. It worked ok after that. That's how I remember it anyhow.

 

I remember my Z117 and Z138 would blink around 4-5 times.

 

Thank you all. Funny, it didn't bother me a bit until I heard how many peoples' machines were booting in 20-30 seconds. Now it's driving me nuts!

 

I have zero blinks and a 20 second cold boot.

 

nvermind, it was so fast I didn't notice, maybe 2 blinks?

Z11 cold boot - YouTube

 

^Qwaarjet, where you been? Are you out of 9V batteries? Need me to send you one???

 

Can you recall what it was before you replaced your SSDs? I have a brand new/never used Z13 base Microsoft retail model that boots in 28 seconds including a bunch of Sony crapware. At the end of the day, are we talking about:

1) The Z11 Samsung SSDs and Intel RST not getting along over time?

2) The triple/quad (I have the former in my Z11) problem, not experienced by dual set ups?

3) Some form of deterioration not related to GC/TRIM and affecting only boot time, nothing else I can discern

4) Truly an incurable, unfixable problem short of breaking the RAID (Zoinks got into big trouble here), clean install, let RST re-assemble the array? In a PM, Zoinks suggested that might be a "delay" but not a fix - that the blasted blinking cursors come back!

 

I wonder have people been experiencing this since day one of their purchase? I never really paid attention to mines as i only get ~8 blinks prior to Windows, so I never paid attention to it before people with 30 blinks came on the forum and mentioned it (I use the program Auto-Login and Lock, so I don't have to wait for the password screen, this program automatically logs you into windows then locks it so windows can finish booting in the background without you having to sign in). I'm pretty sure mines was from day 1 and it's not gotten worse or better for that matter

 

Interesting. Are these third party programs? Also, is your RAID array made of 3 logical drives or 2?

 

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I am still trying to rectify this blinking cursor/boot delay thing, just because it's annoying! Someone had suggested (I can't find where!) that I can break the RAID0 array ("de-link?") do a clean install (or a recovery from recovery disks?) then either re-link the RAID0 array or, I thought I might have been told, it will automatically re-construct the RAID0 and - presto! - not only will the blinking cursor screen be gone, but my SSDs will be restored to factory-fresh condition!

Now, I'm sure I've got some of the above wrong, but I would really appreciate it if someone could tell me the simplest way to:

1) break/de-link the RAID0 on my Z11
2) restore/recover or clean install + recover saved files
3) re-make the RAID0 array and have the SSDs zeroed out to perform like new.

(I know this advice was given in several places in the old thread on this and more recently in another thread, but for anyone newly experiencing this a guide such as I am requesting would be a great "community service" )

 

^You've already spent more time trying to fix this then it could possibly save. I say cut your losses (time) and accept it

 

Or, just get a Z2 to replace the old, antiquated Z1.

 

Fair enough, but isn't this "enthusiast" computer and forum dedicated to it all about getting it to perform its best? Have people not spent untolled hours with BIOS hacks and other arcane tweaks to get 500 3dmark points more out of the GPU?

I am pretty sure there is an "easy" fix, involving wiping out the RAID (and all data) from the SSDs, then reinstalling the OS which will automatically re-link the RAID0. If that is possible, it is well worth doing. (Not only do I want my boot time back to 25 seconds, but I want my WEI back to 7.8 from 7.4 and my sequential read back to 500 from 400.) It doesn't sound very time consuming; I just don't know how to do it! . Do you?

On the way, consigliere. But this Z11 has lots of life ahead of it - for a member of my family, a future purchaser or, if the over-the-top indulgence of a Z2 I have ordered proves less useful to me than the "antique," I may send it back and want another year's service out of this jalopy.

Please, please: can someone tell me how to zap my 384GB RAID0 Samsung SSD array back to its first working day on earth?

 

Why don't you try ghosting the drive to an external, repartition, and ghost back?

 

Thanks. Sorry for my ignorance, but how do I repartition?

 

Just disgusted (with the inanity of the question) or did you have to sign off just then?

Seriously, I know some things much better than others and I slept through disk partitioning 101, especially the day they covered SSDs in RAID0. I'm ready with my ghosted image, and all I need is instructions as to what to do with my partitioning - and how to do it. I think it starts: Coomputer-> Mange->Storage... then what? - so close, but so far... Thanks for any help you can lend. Thanks for helping me out here.

 

^sorry. I don't know if repartition is necessary or not. I use a multipurpose bootcd (hiren specifically). You could do gparted as well. Either way, if it's a fragmentation type issue it could help? Ghost will create/destroy partition manually, so I would just do a full disk image in ghost, destroy the array in the option rom, recreate the array in the option rom and then ghost back the disk image. What do you have to lose? good luck.

 

Well, I guess what I have to lose is, if I break the array and try to recreate it using "Ghost" but it fails; I'm guessing there's about a 50% chance this occurs. Then I'm down to a clean install, etc. And how you destroy/recreate an array in Option ROM?....(once again, I'm not that dumb, but Intel RST is not really familiar territory for me and in looking around it I can't find the precise way to access the Option ROM and break/remake the array. Yet a tiny bit more hand-holding, pls?

Actually, bigger question:

If I successfully break the array and remake the array, is it not highly possible that Ghost can't/won't re-image from a previous array to a new one? Would I have to be sure to use the exact same parameters? If after all precautions, Ghost will not re-\-image successfully,on my newly re-RAIDed SSD array, am I then just in the position of having had a crash and wiping out all my data and programs and having to do a clean install of the OS, drivers and software? Do you think there is a 50% chance it won't work to just re-image, or much lower? Thanks for all.

 

I'd be curious to know if your peculiar 3-SSD setup would make a difference in reestablishing the array. I don't see why it should matter but, on the other hand, odd bugs lurk everywhere.

 

Ghost doesn't know your on an array. It's just imaging the data. Keep in mind you need to ghost your disk to an external (USB) disk. Use the disk to image option in ghost. Then when you restore use image to disk option.

 

I would not call it "peculiar;" I would call it "special." It's a thought, but per Beaups, below, Ghost doesn't know it's re-imaging to an array, but I'm still concerned that if this approach goes awry I'm going to wish I'd followed Beaups' original advice and "drop it!"

Sorta related: I am about to make a final decision about a Z22, Gold, 256GB ( almost positive S III; Sony won't confirm and seller has item sealed), i72640, 6GB, sheet batt, bd on PMD: $2,600 shipped, no tax. You can buy it from Sony for $3,000 + 180 tax or $3,180. Can't decide if $580 off (about 18%) is worth it. Carries full Sony wtty, but no 30 day return privilege. Thoughts?

Got it. That answers my second question. I beg your indulgence to give me the last "missing link:" I don't know how to find/use Intel Option Rom (in RST?) to break/remake the array. Last time, promise!

 

RAM not user upgradeable. No want here.

Go to BIOS enable 'show RAID option and press Ctrl+I when promted. Then delete array and make new one.

 

Thank you Pyro. As it turned out, there was a "shill bidder" in the auction and I may have the opportunity to buy it for $100s less. I'm surprised that you would find this unacceptable for want of the last 2GB of RAM. Is that really so important, especially with such fast "pagefiles" on the SSDs, plus I am not exactly a "power user."

Thanks for the direction on breaking the RAID. Can I essentially, do the same in reverse to re-make it? Could you please weigh in: is it worth the effort/is there any risk you see for me to do this?

Thanks, as always sir.

 

At Pyro said, it's only 6GB and I couldn't recommend spending that much on a laptop without at least 8GB. Other than that, the price seems good, but not great. Before Sony's latest sale ended, it was possible to do the same or better, at least through the Sony VIP.

 

Out of curiosity, how do you know when you are dealing with a "shill bidder"??

 

How about if the ending price began with a "1," many, many hundreds below what I quoted before? (see below.), but first: Feast your eyes !! (Please say it's gorgeous and I got a great deal - 40% off list - even if you don't like the color, think 6GB RAM is a "tragic" mistake or think it wasn't such a great deal

Well, it was just a hunch, based on some odd bidding, the fact that they had 0 transactions on eBay and he kept topping my bids via trial and error. So first I did a little research and found this guide to eBay shill bidding and it convinced me it had most all the hallmarks, so I called eBay and reported it. To make a (very) long story short (who, me?), eBay they worked with me all day to assure me I would be "protected" if their investigation turned up a fraud.

The seller, who swore it was not his shill, but apparently a "foreign" buyer who meant to win it at any price and try to do a PayPal scam to get it shipped to him. , nonetheless agreed to my price "demand" (the last truly competitive bid I'd made - yesterday!) and we sealed the deal tonight. (And yes, I am a bit squeamish buying from a seller who may turn out to be "bad guy" and it could carry over to the problems with the "brand new" Z22. But eBay assured me all the BPP avenues are fully avail to me and the one time I had to use them, my main reaction was: I'd hate to be a seller on eBay! (their bias is very pro-buyer).

Wednesday I should have a very, very nice gold/brown (my fixation courtesy of Computer Cowboy!) Z22 "Signature Collection" (see link above) with everything I need for a price not much more than my Z11 is worth (though I'm probably keeping it "in the family."). I haven't been this excited about a purchase since my last car indulgence in 2009 - a cost of my mid-life crisis, lol.

And yes, I'm still going to break the RAID in the Z11 and get rid of that infernal blinking cursor!

Well, sorry so long again - sigh! But this has been an all-Z day for me, and it is nice to be able to spill all among fellow enthusiasts. Of course, even $1,900 is a lot to spend to cut the boot time by 35 seconds, right Beaups?

 

6GB is unacceptable to me since only 4GB run in dual channel mode and the 2GB on top only in single channel. I just dislike asymetric RAM settings.

To the RAID breaking: No there are no risks as long as you have the proper backup as you apparently do have. Breaking and creating RAIDs is a straight-forward procedure that takes 2 minutes at most. If it doesn't work out the way you wish it to be, I have some further things to pull out of my magic bag. Let's see what you come up with.

 

I hear you about the RAM and appreciate the advice, but the tradeoff for the cost (not the cost of the additional RAM ($80), but the unlikelihood of finding another "loaded" Z2 close to that price - well, it was like the extra 2 GB would have cost me an additional $600-$800 - with a big discount - at current Sony pricing, $1,300 more! Not $ I have laying around these days! this purchase was a total indulgence, not something I remotely needed, just something I wanted Also, I am not anything the power user you are. Out of curiosity, do you think that 6GB is worse than 4GB since the former is not dual channel? Where would I notice the shortcoming? Where would you notice the shortcoming?

Thanks so much for your help with the RAID and offer to go into your "magic bag" for me. You always embolden me to try new things by offering to back me up if needed.

 

I'm bumping myself because I really want the input of the Sony "A team" and I was too invested in buying this Z22 to really listen to you. I can, legitimately, cancel the deal through tomorrow, so on bended knee, I ask for you to re-consider and advise me with thumbs up/down and two particular considerations. I was a jerk for not wanting your advice the other day; this is what makes this forum so great and I really don't know the Z2 very well because I wasn't planning on getting one (thanks, Louche!)

So, reviewing config, for $1,900 shipped, no tax, new in sealed box, serial number confirmed w/Sony:

1) "Sig Collection" (eg, nothing!) Gold/Brown
2) i7-2640
3) 6GB RAM (curses!)/256GB SSD confirmed Sata III
4) 1080p/FHD
5) Mobile broadband
6) BD player in PMD
7) sheet batt included

Total: $1,900 shipped.

My threshold questions:

1) is the 6GB so bad that I shouldn't get it regardless of price? (Is 4GB much faster and would it be better than 6GB cuz no dual channel?)

2) is the Gold/brown color combo polarizing, and likely to be a problem for resale (I think many know: I am forever buying/selling products I know well to improve my rig, make some $ to fund this indulgence; will probably buy/sell 6 Z2s before I'm done )

There are a number of new in box options for the same specs but black, 4GB, no mobile broadband, no sheet included for around $2,200. Given this info (and your overall assessment of how bad 6GB is):

1) Thumbs up or down on my $1,900 deal
2) If down, primary reasons

Thanks. I owe, I owe (you all!)

 

6GB is actually 4GB with full speed plus an additional capped 2GB that can't be accessed with full speed. So it is certainly better than a 4GB. As you probably won't be playing with that device for more than 2 years, you will be fine with 6GB. If you purchase a 8GB model later, you can swap the memory as well (its just superslim sony proprietary mem modules!). For me it would be a deal breaker but obviously I'm not anywhere near of being in the market for a new laptop. Enjoying my Z1 with its awesome hacking potential and my eGPU setup through the expresscard too much.

Gold dunno - matter of taste I wouldn't like it since I like the plain black design better (looks more professional IMO).

Overall it sounds like a good deal although I'm not located in the states and don't know the current price situation there - you have a better view on that.

Thumbs up.

 

Thumbs up if you are into the brown/gold combo (However...I think the sheet battery is only available in black...).

 

At $1900, you're probably doing ok. I'll defer to Pyr0's expertise on the RAM speed issue. The gold/brown may do well in the resale market if only because it's a bit unusual. From my perspective (which, with luck, is mine alone) I can't see spending double the cost of a fairly high-end laptop to get something that isn't the way I want it and I find the configuration of the low-end Signature box to be downright silly. That said, it seems like a good price -- if you don't mind getting the FatallyFlawed(TM) Z2 design.

 

Thank you all very much. I guess it really does come down to color. I thought I would like it - Computer Cowboy's been drooling for it! - but now that it could be mine I'm looking at it and finding it, well, just not the right way for a computer to look.

Louche, what did you mean by "spending double what a high end computer would cost" and "the Signature box is downright silly." Are you saying that one can buy a Z2, with a low-end configuration, for $1,000?

Nobody seems to think this is a steal, and that's what I thought I was getting. Seems if you wait around for a sale or clearance items to hit the outlet, you can do better.

Still, I'm bummed; I really wanted that "fatally flawed" Z2!

 

Nah, I'm just sayin' if you go to your average computer retailer, most laptops are under $1k. By the time you hit the grand mark, you're talking about pretty high-end laptops. The Z2 you're talking about is almost double the cost of a number of new fairly high-end laptops, is used, and has no upgrade possibilities. The idea of spending almost two grand on a laptop like that does seem kinda ridiculous from a certain perspective. By contrast, you can get an ok store-fresh laptop with an SB chip for $500.

 

What I'm saying is that, unless the Z2 is really truly what you want, it probably doesn't make much sense to buy it.

 

Well, I appreciate your candor - even if you were instrumental in convincing me to go to "the dark side" and get a Z2, lol! Below is a post-mortem, better titled: "new observations about the Z2 that I hadn't realized before I went to actually buy one"

Turns out, this wasn't the model he described in his listing (no mobile broadband, wimax, gps, couple of other things, so I turned it down. (But you were under a misconception: it was not used, new sealed in box).

Warnign: verly long par. about the appearance of the gold Z2 in person - skip if you don't care:
For those of you who haven't seen it in the flesh, I take back my concerns about the gold color. I saw it in a store and it is absolutely stunning and very classy. The lid and bottom are very elegant all gold - I'd forgotten that the Z2"s bottom is lid colored and it looks superb in gold. The interior was the biggest surprise for me: it just looked like "brown paint" in pictures, but it actually has a slightly metalic finish that compliments its clearly all-metal composition - contrasted with both the plastic palm rests on Z1s and even metal Z2 decks in black. Also, it's quite dark, so it feels like a cross between the CF color and black interiors of the Z1, plenty business-like. Actually, similar to the HP "Umber" color they are using on most of their metallic decks today - but nicer. If/when I get one of these, it is definitely going to be in that color!

As for next steps, I do love speed - and new toys - and the price issue is not as big a deal when you buy it "right" with confidence you can get most if not all your $ back in resale w/in 3-6 mos or so if you get buyer's remorse. Finally, don't forget; nothing else has THE SCREEN and RAID0 SATAIII 256SSDs. To add a conventional SSD to your $1,000 machine, brings you over $1,500, still without the T.S.(TM). so the only thing of my 3 top priorities that a non-Sony Z, new laptop in the size/weight class could deliver is SB battery life - and I wouldn't ditch the Z1 for that alone, the rest a step-down.

But...I also realized that I had a sound plan all along that I was jumping (again, blame all to you ): wait for new model to come out and these to be sold used and refurb, and pay no more than $1,200 for the config I was considering (pref w.8GB!) at $1.900. Being at last year's "bleeding edge" can be a great and economical strategy with laptops.

but i really want a new laptop and I really want it to be a Z and I really want it in gold...

Thanks again, to all.