Z2 Owners Damage Warning - Watch those memory card slots!

Are we saying the body of the Z2 flexes or just the metal bits around the sd card slot? The LCD flexes, sure, the the CF bottom plate and aluminium base are solid. No flex with reasonable pressure.

 

Have they designed a motherboard and components that have no problem with flexing already? I haven't yet heard of that...

 

Thanks mate. But any chance to prevent/minimize it?

 

Well, read my previous post for that regarding 'guarding' the memory card slots. As for flex-derived bending, I can't be sure. But as I said, the chassis is designed to bend to a degree, and where plastic bends and recovers, aluminium doesn't (which is, e.g. why I have to bend my Airs back into shape occasionally) - and where it (the aluminium) will bend most noticeably will be the place where it's least supported, i.e. the indicated location.

 

You are absolutely right; no product is perfect. Every product either represents an unacceptable compromise (notebooks are typically rife with compromise) or design/implementation flaw...to someone. The trick is to find the compromise that best suits you and the design/implementation that suits your own unique tastes and usage characteristics.

No laptop is everything to everyone (not yet anyway).

That said, it's disappointing when you find a design/implementation and compromise combination that you like to the point that it almost seems perfect...and then you discover an "oops" that happened somewhere along the progression towards production.

 

Just in case anyone's not clear about what I was rambling about memory card adapters, this is what I mean. I only have a MicroSD adapter, but you can buy an M2 -> Duo adapter for the other slot. As I said, it won't protect against bending that takes place when the body flexes, but it will stop bending when you might put your finger there.

 

The fix for bends in this area should be super easy. You can access the area by simply removing the battery. The bent bit should be right at the top. I bet you can straighten it with your fingers.

I have no problem with chassis flex. I still don't understand why this is being reported (post #51).

 

You definitely need to remove bottom plate as well:



As you can see from image below, this part of frame is quite thin and prone to torsion/pressure:





Cheers,
Miki

 

I've taken mine apart several times. You won't need to remove the base to get at the lip to bend it back.

 

You can probably poke it back as you say, but being aluminium, it would probably help if you weren't constantly poking it back.

Because the body is plastic, it's not carbon fibre as most know it, which would be more rigid.

And say you apply a bending force to the laptop (as things do inevitably when you have it e.g. stashed in a bag, the rigid aluminium plate (and more importantly, the curled down area at the front) will attempt to deform with the chassis - and while the majority of the plate may bend back when the laptop is relieved of pressure, areas such as the bottom of the slot - especially when it's not properly braced like on the Z - will show signs of deformation.

 

Sure the body is CF.

 

^^ (Vogelbung) Have you looked at the bottom plate from the inside? Why do you keep asserting that it's plastic. There are very large, visible chunks of carbon fiber weave in there. This is not the CFRP from the Z1 - which, by the way, was more the "fancy plastic" itself.

 

Excuse my ignorance, but can anyone explain to me what the difference between carbon fiber (CF) and carbon fiber reinforced plastic (CFRP)? What is the difference between carbon fiber used in previous VPC-Z and Z2?

Cheers,
Miki

 

Got photos? Because you can't finish CF like this. Are you seeing a 'star' effect of distributed fibres? Because that is CFRP. If you're actually seeing a weave as in a regular cross-pattern weave, I guess it's possible they're bonding a CF sheet to CFRP outer panel - but it seems highly unlikely.

EDIT: If we're talking about the photo that miki69 just linked, that is not a carbon fiber weave - it's either a result of the moulding process or some sort of protective covering - and moreover, it does confirm that the slot bending issue is a result of the aluminium top plate being subtly bent when the machine is being carried around.

 

There's a carbon fiber weave under there. I've seen it first hand and in photos on this site. I'm not sure if the entire bottom panel is made of it or if they just bonded carbon fiber in spots as necessary...but it's CLEARLY CF weave.

 

Here I "borrowed" this from Zoinks. ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

 

There's no difference (Z1 & Z2) from what I can see. Your photos have made that a bit clearer actually.

Difference between CFRP and CF is that CF is laid up from sheets of woven carbon fibre impregnated with an epoxy compound, pressed into shape and baked under pressure. This is what most people know as 'carbon fiber'. The result is very strong, light and rigid because the fibre matrix is supporting the structure. The disadvantage is that it's labour intensive so expensive, and you can't form intricate shapes. Well you can, but it's a complex and even more expensive procedure.

CFRP is where you shred carbon fibres, then mix it along with a mouldable plastic mix. Then you injection-mould it just like regular plastic. The advantage is the you can form complex shapes (because you can mould it), and it's cheap to make (once again, because the manufacture process is injection moulding), and it is definitely stronger than regular plastic. The disadvantage is that because the fibres are just helping the plastic to stay in shape as opposed to forming the structure itself, it's nowhere near as strong as CF. In terms of the tactile experience, it's also just regular plastic. In fact, because Sony uses CFRP to make cases thinner and shave weight, it feels like really flexible plastic.

If you look at details like the bottom fan intakes on the Z, first of all it's clear that the intake lattice is not bonded to the bottom plate but rather moulded along with the bottom plate - and if that's the case, there is no way you can economically make this kind of detail out of CF.

I'm willing anyone to prove me wrong, I wish I was wrong, but sadly I don't think I am.

 

Interesting - but not as clear as I'd like to see. Possibly two-stage moulding? Where a really thin sheet of carbon fiber is overmoulded by the rest of the bottom case assembly. The problem I can see is that *that* thin a sheet (i.e. a sheet thin enough to be overmoulded in this particular structure) wouldn't be doing a lot - especially in terms of rigidity - though it'd help the core of the bottom case stay together better, but maybe there are reasons for it I can't think of.

Now I'm really interested in seeing more. Though not enough to take my Z's apart. Yet. Got any more (in focus)?

 

^take it apart! It's really simple Looking at the photo again it looks like it covers the entire bottom plate - some sort coating covering a lot of it.

Even if it is a two piece mold of some sort, it must do something. Like you said, CF is very expensive - I don't see sony just adding it for the heck of it.

I'll tell you that bottom plate is incredibly thin, incredibly light, and incredibly strong....

 

Just speculating, but possibly they made the bottom of the case too thin for even CFRP to be reasonably durable - therefore the overmoulding.

The bulk of what you could call the supporting parts of the bottom case is definitely CFRP (at least I hope so and not regular ol' ABS) though. Including e.g. the frame around the battery compartment, and *all* the ridges making up the bottom tray. So the overmoulded CF plate if it's there would not be contributing much to the stiffness of the structure as a whole.

Consider also that just a really thin aluminium plate makes up the entire other side of the shell (I have taken the battery off, and there is that plate right there - so thin you can clearly see the reverse of the VAIO logo stamped into the palmrest), and from miki's photos you can see that there's virtually no bolstering in the bottom plastic-CFRP frame around the memory slot area. There's a lot of reliance on the battery assembly to provide that, and well, you can see how rigid that is around that area by taking the battery off yourself.

Definitely would like to see clearer photos.

Seeing the blow-up photo is very interesting in terms of the Z being really an exercise in extremes. This thing is right at the edge of structural integrity, and Sony has incredible balls mass-producing it, hats off to them. But I think I should definitely accelerate my search for a hard sleeve now

 

Better photo's: http://forum.notebookreview.com/sony/603509-sony-vaio-z2-photos-teardown-2.html#post7821668

The base is mostly CF with molded plastic bits sonically welded in place. Rigidity is from the main CF plate... and it is real CF. Same goes for the lid, save the side strakes.

I'm not BS'sing when I said I've taken the machine apart several times

 

No sonic welding there - look on the opposite side of the case and think about it for starters. It's definitely overmoulded, but what's underneath is too thin to to supply actual structural rigidity - it seems more to be employed as I said in my last post. What structural rigidity is in the bottom tray is coming entirely from the moulded (i.e. non-CF) components. The pattern really isn't clear to me (which would give me the depth of the microweave) still but that much is evident.

 

Best of the bunch:

Mmmm, carbon fiber

The sheet covering the main plate looks to be thermal film. This is where the hot bits of the mainboard could come into contact with the CF mesh. It is still CF under there.

I'm also partial to this one:

Carbon Fiber and Carbon Fiber

 

Then I guess you are going to need to take yours apart and look at it. I think it is reversed.

I agree that the molded sections provide lateral strength but only because of the CF plate. However, the CF will be rigid without the plastic. The plastic is not rigid without the CF.

PS: sonic welds can be depth controlled

 

I'm not entirely disagreeing. I'm saying that it looks like they made that part of the case too thin for even CFRP to survive. So overmoulding it with a really thin microweave sheet will e.g. be stronger than a CFRP sheet of the same thickness against a rap directly on the underside of the case aft of the battery compartment. However, the presence of the CF plate doesn't necessarily enhance the structural rigidity of the notebook as a whole, certainly not against the damage vector we're talking about here - consider the structure as a whole.

Yes, but as I said, look at the outside of the case and have a think.

 

I'll leave this off saying what I said going in. I have no chassis flex and haven't dented my memory slot as of yet.

 

That second pic reminds me of the days when I had to downshift I don't think I've even used 1st gear more than 5 or 6 times. It's useless.

 

Will be interesting to see how many people share either experience. If the notebook experiences an upward bending (e.g. if you put it in a bag, and apply uneven pressure to the bottom of the case - e.g. a book or pencilcase smaller than the Z pressing on it) the resulting bending will cause the alloy plate to deform, and for that small strip under the memory slot to buckle. And I'm pretty certain it can happen even with a small amount of pressure.

 

Why couldn't the bottom plate simply be painted carbon fiber? There is no machining process that would allow the vents to be cut out, etc?

 

No, If you look at the vent slats, they can't be machined or cut into the plate. They are moulded. And you can't mould thermoset, at least not with that level of precision. i.e. the entire outside of the bottom plate is moulded. Which means one of two things - the *really thin* sheet of 'real' carbon is either overmoulded (i.e. the bottom case is moulded around the carbon sheet) or bonded to the moulded bottom case. From what I can see with Zoinks photos I'd say the former is much more likely.

So what would happen is if you imagine an irregular-shaped (and the aforementioned incredibly thin) flat sheet of carbon, which is also likely made out of a much thinner carbon fiber than normal, in a shape which skirts around all the vents, fixture points, and other interruptions you can see on the back of the notebook aft of the battery compartment. The sheet is stuck in the mould, and then the plastic is moulded around the sheet.

What seems to be going on is they pegged that making the centre of the case as thin as they wanted it and making it all out of CFRP was going to be too crack-prone (or noodly, hard to tell without actually looking at the case in 3D).

The fact remains though that the primary structural components as far as the effective frame of the notebook is concerned is either CFRP or aluminium. The carbon in the bottom case is obviously going to contribute to the rigidity of that particular area, but it does nothing for the battery compartment area forwards.


Put it this way (and I'm not equating balsa wood to CFRP! but this is an illustrative point). Build a frame out of balsa wood, like this:
┌───┐
└───┘
Then glue a balsa wood sheet, with a much smaller sheet of metal glued in the middle (in terms of the width, but also slightly towards the back in terms of depth), to the bottom of that frame.

Now bend the frame at the front. Is the metal sheet going to stop the frame from deforming/cracking?

 

^I'm not arguing but why couldn't the vent slats be cut out of carbon fiber? There is truly no process? Not cnc, laser, etc? No method at all?

 

Carbon sheets can certainly be cut, but even the thinner weave can't be cut with the level of detail that is in the slats. Look closely at the transitions in the three-pronged pattern that forms the CPU intakes. They're moulded, and this level of moulding = CFRP or regular plastic because of the detail.

You can also see that the edge of the case, at the bottom of the left-hand exhaust, clearly has a moulding mark - a subtle ridge. So you can draw a simple conclusion from this - the entire bottom case was moulded in one piece. So the carbon sheet inside can only be bonded or overmoulded. In which case, the flat sheet only occupies the bottom of the case (look at ports and exhaust on left and right hand sides) and moreover, as I said it will have to skirt around all the interruptions - vents, screw holes, etc.

 

You obviously know more about all of this than I do, but I still can't understand why the bottom plate CANT be made of CF? Fore example: CNC routing service

 

Thank you very much for your detailed explanation

The only thing I can add is from Sony website:

So, this sounds like more expensive version of CF if not marketing gimmicks.


Cheers,
Miki

 

Yeah. I think we've got to the bottom of it. Sony does incorporate carbon fibre in the 'formula one type' sense and it's probably overmoulded with CFRP.

Given the available thickness, the sheet will be made of a significantly thinner fibre used in more intricate components. So this is not, technically, even your 'bicycle-grade' carbon fibre in terms of ultimate strength if it was the same thickness. It's there much like the CFRP is - shave weight / thickness, while *keeping* strength.

You really want this to be all-'real'-carbon-fibre, don't you?

Yeah, I mean *a* bottom plate can be made of painted CF. It's just that this one definitely is not. If it was, I'd have spotted it was CF from the outside straight away. What they probably do, as I said, is overmoulding. It's actually a pretty nifty procedure if they do use this method. If not, the CF sheet is probably glued to the moulded CFRP case, although I don't think, given the pictures, thats very likely.

Thermoset CF (i.e. 'formula one type' carbon) is, as it says, set by heat. i.e. the epoxy resin is baked into shape. This is done at heat greater than the melting temp of CFRP, which is thermoplastic - which is as it again says, made malleable by heat.

So what you do is to bake the central thermoset sheet first - and in the case of the Z, it'll be cut (likely using something like the CNC routing service that you linked to) into an irregular shape that you can probably picture if you look at the bottom plate and imagine a shape that skirts around all the vents, screwholes, edges etc - then you put that in the mould, and then squirt in the CFRP plastic to mould the rest of the bottom plate around that sheet. The sheet doesn't melt during this process because as I said before, thermoset is cured by heat.

Result is that you don't have to form complex shapes with CF, but you get added strength where you've overmoulded the CF - i.e. the area bounded by the vents and the Windows license sticker (the battery area outer case is definitely not CF). It is a more complex process than previous machines, and there's no evidence they've used it before. The overmoulding also offers protection to the CF sheet, as something that's as thin as I think it is will probably delaminate (i.e. the fibres become exposed from the epoxy resin through wear and it literally starts to fall apart) quickly if you just expose it directly outside with only a couple of layers of lacquer.

So as I said, the reason is likely that they've pushed the envelope literally to breaking point as far as the thickness of the case goes for CFRP use. It's actually pretty awesome. But it's at the same time not that confidence-inspiring to be honest, due to the rest of the machine.

 

So I was googling Vaio Z sleeves, and found this fantastic video complete with mini-rant about Apple Stores (Wonder if he's a NBR'er)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNfdWhiOhVk

But this is actually a good example of a case that the Z can flex in against your hip if you've just got it slung on your shoulder, because it's unsupported.

The picture below is an exaggerated example, but you can begin to see how the thin aluminium strips under teh memory card slots would begin to buckle under this kind of bending action.

And come to think of it, recently when I've been carrying my Z's they've been in soft cases.

 

This is getting silly. Putting enough pressure on the machine to bend it is excessive, even borderline abusive. Do this with a Z1 or the other direction on the Z2 and you will crack your screen.

Morale of the story, store your $4,500 piece of electronic equipment flat.

I'm unsubscribing, late.

 

The Z1 has a moulded bottom with a very robust slot for the SD card. Seems they decided to change things for the Z2, and apparently not for the better. IMO they should have reinforced it. No one in their right mind abuses such an expensive laptop. If it can get deformed during normal handling, that is not good. If you try to insert the memory card and the card accidentally hits the upper edge of the slot, that should not be reason enough for it to deform.

 

I've been following this thread and I'm sort of mystified. I'm unable to flex the case around the card slots in any way with any sort of normal hand pressure. Even using a card as a "tool".

Can you describe the actions that caused the deformation.

 

That's exactly the whole point and this is valid for ANY laptop, no matter if for 200 bucks or 2000 bucks and no matter how unique it is or whether it can also make coffee and fly.
And this is usually rule Nr. 1 in manufacturing and testing!

Withstanding normal usage is requirement number one! No "but"s, no "however"...!

Nonetheless, obviously not all agree...
And certainly there are DIY solutions to almost every problem. If your screen lid cracks around the hinges you can put some melt plastic around or glue it... this will fix it for a while. If your keyboard stops responding you can use an external - this will "fix" it. Etc., etc. but this is not the point of buying a "premium" brand, is it.