black carbon fibre or black plastic lid of my new SonyZ?

I just got a brand new customized Sony VGN-Z890FKB. The sales representative of the website where I bought it from, states all their models come with the Premium Carbon Fibre lid, however I find it very hard to tell the difference between the two.


Nowhere it is indicated that this one has the carbon fibre lid. On the side of the box it says B (Black) so I got confused.

The lid is black indeed, if I look close enough I see small silverish specs mixed with the black, even on the bottom side of the laptop. The palmrest/keyboard area is a darker black without silverish specs in it.

A friend of mine has a Sony SZ and there you can tell it is a black Carbon Fibre lid (black with a hint of purple in it - when you angle the laptop from one light source to the other + you somewhat see horizontal lines on the lid of the Sony SZ).
Also if you look carefully on the sonystyle site, you see those same horizontal-like lines on the Carbon Fibre Black lid of the Sony Z contrary to the Black plastic lid.


How can one tell whether his Sony laptop has a carbon fibre or black plastic lid?


PS: I will post some pictures later

 

Yeah - we'd have to see pics. Try and shoot it at an oblique angle to get the maximum lid detail when lit.

Whichever it is, it is actually all 'carbon fiber'. "Premium carbon" is just a cosmetic effect, because it seems that the 'premium carbon' machines I've had there is no 'carbon fiber' in the 'thermoset hand/machine-laid pre-preg' sense, i.e. what you and even I might normal call 'carbon fiber'. I've never seen actual prepreg weave, but only patterns and textures.

Sony builds their machines out of moulded carbon-fiber reinforced thermoplastic, which is basically at it's most prosaic regular ol' plastic with a bunch of recycled, chopped-up carbon fibers dumped into it. Technically speaking I suppose they can call this 'carbon fiber' but I've always throught it was disingenuous Apple-style marketing.

I don't actually think they do a thermoset lid inset at all - at least, I've never seen one.

 

I had a look at my friends Z with "premium carbon fiber" lid.
It has a faint texture with horizontal lines running through it.
If you look at the top part of the lid (where it has the Sony lettering), it should have a different texture than the rest of the lid.
If it looks the same as the rest, it's probably the standard black version.

 

I have the premium carbon lid on the Z and my TZ. They are indeed different, the TZ is nicer.
I think the Z's premium carbon is more smooth than the black version (I mean you can feel the difference too)

 

here are the pics:



http://i50.tinypic.com/317fes8.jpg (lid close-up)

http://i50.tinypic.com/308uqg5.jpg (palmrest area)

I'm guessing the palmrest/keyboard area might be in premium carbon fibre (because of the horizontal lines) but the lid black plastic?

 

yes, the lid is definitely not premiun carbon

 

100% NOT premium carbon fiber

 

Thx for your reply.

What about the palmrest/keyboard area, carbon fibre? It feels soft, and as you can see in the pic I posted before it does have horizontal lines.

It's a darker kind, not like the one you find in the UK (which is more of a greyish type). Although I heard the keyboard area is made of aluminium, so could this one be brushed?

 

That comes with the regular Black Carbon Fiber lid (not the Premium Carbon Fiber lid). IMHO, the only difference between them is basically that the Premium Carbon lid showcases the "line/weave" patterns under certain lighting conditions.

The last alphabet in the model of your Vaio Z will tell you what lid options it comes with. In your case, it states B, which means it is a regular Black Carbon Fiber lid. To get a Premium Carbon Fiber lid, that last alphabet has to be a X. For a Bordeaux Red lid, it is a R.

By the way, congrats on your Vaio notebook purchase.

 

The palmrest/keyboard area is made of aluminum, not carbon fiber.
It doesn't feel like an Apple Macbook's aluminum though which has a rougher texture and a more natural coloring.
The aluminum of the Sony's palmrest/keyboard area has a smooth protective coating which makes it feel a bit artificial but don't worry, it doesn't matter which Z model you've bought, it's definitely aluminum.

...and as the others already said, premium carbon fiber is just a purely cosmetic effect and doesn't mean it has a better quality than the regular black lid (which is also carbon fiber but with a standard black texture).

 

I've always wondered why they don't (offer a 'proper' carbon lid, especially as it's been a square panel most of the time) at least do it on the lid. I know I haven't actually been ripped off since I know what I'm buying into, but somehow I feel so. A matte (or even glossy) lacquered weave does look nice, and it would be more obviously (and honestly, as it were) 'carbon'.

Perhaps the cost increase is too much, and Sony feels that calling it 'carbon fiber' is enough to set most people believing that it is 'carbon fiber' in the sense that they know. From looking around it does seem to be the case, which is kinda sad. I posted in the Apple subforum a few moments ago about Apple being better than anyone to flatter the half-learned expectations of your average consumer. Sony isn't far behind in this particular respect - CFRP is basically still just a plastic in the regular sense: It is stronger than regular unreinforced moulded plastic, but it is considerably weaker than 'real' carbon fiber.

 

It should be mentioned that the lacquer wears off and starts flaking with time, subjected to the oils and abrasiveness of your palms. My almost-a-year old Z now looks rather shatty due to this. And as it's considered "wear and tear", it's not covered by the warranty.

I'm tempted to dremel off the rest of the lacquer, and subject it to heat to get the desired sapphire coating. If it is 100% aluminium, that is, and not a cheap alloy.

 

Unless you have a customized model from SonyStyle, in which case it depends on when you bought it, and not the letter code.

 

Thanks for the input guys.
I hope I will have more luck with the lacquer not flaking off

 

Nope. The last letter (alphabet) of the code works for all the Vaio Z notebooks, whether bought from SonyStyle, customized or not, not matter when you buy it, etc. Don't believe me (as you always do, especially since our little "fight" here at the NBR Sony forums some time ago)? You can always go find out yourself.

 

Different vaio lids cut out side by side.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2889

 

I haven't check current prices but carbon fiber is much more expensive than most people realize. Add to that the fact than any manufacturer would have to have an entirely new engineering design and manufacturing process and carbon fiber laptops will not be coming to a consumer any time soon.

 

What do you mean by a 'proper' carbon fibre lid?

 

By 'proper' I mean carbon fibre in the sense that most people are aware of it - in helmets, high-end car parts, motorcycle exhausts, etc - thermoset carbon, the process that actually gives you the strength and lightness of what is normally referred to as 'carbon fibre'. As I said, CFRP is just plastic with a bunch of recycled, chopped-up carbon fibres dumped into it to make it a bit stronger. It is, however, significantly weaker and heavier than 'proper' carbon fibre. The advantages are a) it's stronger than plastic but just as cheap to injection mould, b) that it can be injection moulded to form complex shapes and c) Sony can call it 'carbon fibre' without technically telling a lie.

As for the price, 'proper' carbon is only hideously expensive to manufacture in irregular, complex shapes - a flat rectangular panel such as the inserts they do on the TZ/TT/SZ should not be disastrously expensive, and they could throw us that bone at least, is what I'm saying.

 

What you are referring to is carbon fiber weave.
It's not THAT expensive to buy, believe it or not. The cost comes when you realize the extra prep that it requires. It needs to be baked, not to mention being hand laid usually.

Some refer to this as plastic.
It probably does in the same manner as graphite and fiberglass. I have had experience where a manufacturer has used molded carbon fiber like this for years and I can assure you, there is BIG difference in strength compared to normal plastic. These companies offered molded carbon and graphite as opposed to plastic and there is a very definite difference in the strength of the two parts. Can it break? Of course, but the carbon parts withstood far more, often about twice as much abuse.

Layered weave is incredibly strong, in the manner it is designed. However go against the direction it was designed to have strength and it fails dramatically. How would you like to drop your laptop and watch the case splinter into tiny shards? No thanks. Once damaged it begins to self destruct almost. Also, it doesn't allow for tabs and things to be quite so easily added. Then there is the fact that you have to allow for shrinkage and warpage while curing. It's a hassle.

I do think the $500 charge is excessive though.
But fake carbon, not likely.

 

Oh, I don't have to go anywhere. I am typing this on my VGN-Z590N, and it has a premium lid.

In late November last year, you couldn't get the 590 from SonyStyle without a premium lid, regardless of model -- even the then top model, UAB, which otherwise had a black lid came with a "premium" lid if ordered through SonyStyle at the right time.
And none of them have a Z as the last letter.

Don't believe me? Look at Sony's own model finder:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-find.pl?mdl=VGNZ590XXX

 

The key is not just moulding the parts a la fibreglass, but the economical viability of injection moulding that Sony takes advantage of in this construction method. The 'carbon fibres' added are very short, and while they contribute to a potentially useful increase in strength as I said, you're not looking at a dramatic increase.

 

Maybe I wasn't clear earlier. The last alphabet will always work only on instances of model numbers/letters having the last 3 being alphabets or 1 alphabet after a slash ("/") such as VGN-Z590 UAB or VGN-Z570N /X.

The VGN-Z590UA B comes with a Black carbon fiber lid.
The VGN-Z570N/ B also comes with a Black carbon fiber lid.

The model number, VGN-Z590N, is "incomplete" (I known it is given by Sony in this manner). This is the reason why what I've been saying all along does not work at all. The CTO model numbers being shown on the screen bezel is usually in this "incomplete" form to make things easier for them, cut costs, or standardized, whatever you call it. For CTO models, the more likely place to see the full complete model number is on the sticker on the box but it may also not show the full model format such as VGN-Z590xxB or something if it is a customer customized model (not pre-config CTO models such as VGN-Z590UAB). By the way, the last letter N in your "incomplete" model number is only referring to Vista Business 32-bit.

 

You're contradicting yourself by saying thermoset carbon is proper carbon fibre and CFRP is just plastic with fibres. Thermoplastics, used in many laptop housings, are a type of plastic as its name suggest but the thermosets that your're referring to are a type of plastic too! When thermoplastic or thermosets are used to make a carbon fibre composite, the resulting material is also known as CFRP - carbon fibre reinforced polymer (plastic).

The reason why Sony hasn't chosen to use pre-preg thermoset with the distinctive weave pattern is probably not due to cost but rather other factors such as durability and shock resistance. The ratio of carbon fibre and ABS (or polycarbonate plus ABS) in the composite is important, as too much of the former will result in a brittle housing that will shatter into pieces if knocked hard or dropped, like leslieann mentioned.

 

Well - there are points of pedantry there, but as far as the argument at hand is considered, actual points of merit are somewhat lacking to be honest.

Sony uses CFRP in the formula employed for one major reason - that it can be injection moulded. This is a cost aspect for volume production and product engineering considerations, and the formulation employed to enable the process is far closer to a regular ABS / polycarbonate / delete as applicable in terms of material characteristics than thermoset.

It is true that thermoset has issues with delamination when subjected to some forces and also when subject to heavy wear of the laminate layer - but in practical terms, CFRP parts of the level of criticality fabricated using the Sony method would also be suffering at the very least equally in this respect. If we were to toss costs outside the window and consider a Sony made of 'real' carbon in the consumer-awareness sense, while a 'real' carbon laptop may have somewhat thicker casing, it can easily be lighter and stronger.

Of course I'm paraphrasing to make the comparison simpler - but the comparison of CFRP as used by Sony, and thermoset in terms of what most people refer to by 'carbon fiber' is a fairly immutable point in terms of it's validity. See, in essence, it's like those pouched 'orange drinks made with real orange juice', vs orange juice.

Compared to the processes used by Sony, labour is a consideration in the production of thermosets. However it is less so in terms of flat panels which can be cut into smaller panels - and this is why I was asking why Sony doesn't throw us a thermoset bone in terms of the 'premium carbon' lid, especially for models in which there's an inset rectangular panel. It doesn't have to be obvious obvious, but especially as someone who's aware of the differences, I'd like some element of 'real' carbon action going on in there.

I'm not sure if they ever did a 'real' carbon Premium lid, but I've made an effort at looking closely at my machines so far and I haven't found any evidence that this is the case.

 

The whole point is Sony doesn't want to make the housing thicker! (look at the Vaio X for example) On parts of the LCD housing, the composite is like 1mm or so thickness. Can that be done with pre-preg thermoset carbon fibre and still be able to withstand shocks and drops that a laptop may be subjected to?

 

BTW, I've just realised in full why I've had to wade through so much dispute over the term CFRP.

I don't actually visit Wikipedia that often, but I looked it up. I know many people use wiki as the basis of them becoming an expert on something in ten seconds or less, and there's a crucial difference that's only hinted at in the wiki article.

First of all, the injection-moulding process to create Sony's machines are fundamentally different from anything touched on in the Process section of the wiki article. Sony's parts are injection moulded - i.e. a lot cheaper in terms of labour than lay-up. And the reason they can injection-mould is because all the 'carbon fiber' is, is plastic with finely shredded reclaimed carbon fiber dumped into it. And only a passing mention is made at the very last portion of the article on CFRP on the use of reclaimed, shredded carbon fibers in laptop manufacture.

I've only just pegged that people wiki CFRP, look at the first bit, go 'yup, that's carbon fiber as I know it' and then go on with their expert pontificating.

When I say CFRP, I mean (to myself, clearly... ) situations where the resin by volume is larger than the fiber, i.e. in the case of the Sony laptops. As I've probably said before, Sony's 'carbon fiber' is regular plastic with mashed (usually) second-hand carbon fiber mixed into it - which, while stronger than regular ol' plastic, is still way weaker than 'real' carbon fiber any way you look at it. And that's why I don't call it 'real' carbon fiber.

And my real beef is not really with the process, but Sony's marketing-lead approach to using the material. It could be argued that on the '08-09 machines at least, they're no longer engineering the bodies to use the plastic properly, and the material also has no tactile advantages.

Now, you couldn't replicate a 'real' carbon fiber structure that's the same as the Sony laptop bodies - because the shapes are too complex to economically produce as you can't injection-mould 'real' carbon fibre, so the body would need rework. But yes - while a fundamental rejigging of the internals would be needed to present ports in as easy to cut-out ways as possible/etc, a stronger body could be made in similar dimensions. Only it would be more expensive to produce.