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    Is Microsoft's Business Model About To Collapse?

    Discussion in 'Windows OS and Software' started by Rodster, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. Rodster

    Rodster Merica

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  2. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    30 days in and we've declared "Windows 8 has failed to stop the iPad"? Really? And just two weeks into Windows Phone 8 and they've declared that it's "failed to gain traction"? Not to mention under the boldfaced declaration "loyal developers start to leave the Microsoft platform," they admit "We're not sure if this happening or not." Great journalism there folks. Next week's article: Giant space whales eat asteroids. (We actually have no evidence of this, but it could be happening).

    One thing is accurate though: the traditional market is changing. But Microsoft is changing too, and this article doesn't give enough credit for that. On the business end, by using a hybrid OS to target businesses that are going PC-and-tablet instead of the old PC-only paradigm, Microsoft can offer those companies the chance to just shell out resources for employee training on one OS instead of two, get one set of software instead of two, etc. Both 20th Century Fox and Air Emirates have gone Windows 8 instead of iPads for their mobile device fleets. And on the consumer end, Microsoft can now profit from post-OS-purchase transactions like Apple does; I've bought a few games from the Windows app store and bought $10 of True Blood episodes from Xbox Video so far.
     
  3. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    You have to take this with a grain of salt. Primarilly even if on the desktop W8 severly slows new system sales you have to look at what the users are doing. That is they are just staying with M$ and windows 7 or earlier versions. This then supports other M$ products such as office etc.

    Now if a new PC OS were to start gaining traction this would be a major hit to M$. Even a new GUI to reside under MinWin could be a blow as then it could eventually port to other OS's such as linux etc. None of this will happen over night so it gives M$ plenty of time to react and align the products for competition.

    Windows Phone or W8 RT on tablets may just take a while to become established. While M$ may have the Surface I would not base W8 useage on tablets by that hardware alone. We will need to see some further hardware out there along with maturity of W8 and its apps before writing it off.

    I am not saying M$ has great weather with a path paved in gold ahead of them. It may be a long, stormy and muddy road ahead. Hopefully M$ will just have the insight to make changes as required to addapt with the weather and bends in the road to come out strong at the end.
     
  4. Rodster

    Rodster Merica

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    Just to be clear, I didn't post this because i'm wishing for Microsoft's collapse. To the contrary I like MS and I hope this article doesn't play out but I think MS needs a change at the top starting with Mr. Shy, Steve Ballmer. :)
     
  5. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    I think you might benefit from actually reading this article in its stated context, rather than attacking random snippets from it out of context. Once you do that you may realize it's not a bad article, and does have quite a few caveats built in.

    But, yes, more or less nobody is buying a Windows Phone, any Windows phone, and absolutely nobody is buying a Surface RT tablet. Full disclosure: Just a few days ago, I did see someone (in the line at the movie ticket counter) using a Windows Phone. This was my first-ever sighting of a Windows Phone in the wild! Hey, so I now know there's at least one person round here who has a Windows Phone. So things do look up for them, right? Right?

    Mark my words: W8 RT tablets will never go anywhere, period. They just make no sense whatsoever. Not now, and probably not ever.
     
  6. baii

    baii Sone

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    enough said... Looks like employers going to hand out MBP and putting iMAC at their workplace. :p

    The only thing regarding windows 8 mobile device is their price, which match's apple product. Would be dream if they ever come down to android level.
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    So after defending the article as not being a troll-piece for stating conclusions that are simply too early to determine, you make the same baseless attack (that we can make pronouncements about Windows Phone 8's alleged failure just a couple weeks after its launch).

    FYI, at AT&T stores right now, the Lumia 920 is out-selling all Android models except for the Galaxy S3 (source: Brighthand). A bit early to call it a failure if you ask me.
     
  8. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    So, you're still refusing to actually read the article, or are you unable to understand what it is it is actually saying? I'll give you a hint: It does not make the claim the title suggests.

    I am talking about Windows Phone. The standard customer doesn't give a rat's behind what the version number is. Windows Phone hasn't sold in sufficient quantities to make any meaningful difference, in the years it has been available. People don't care for tiles over icons and widgets.

    [Laughing...] So, it is outselling all those other Android models that nobody buys, since everybody buys the Sammy? Would you like to continue amusing us with a comparison with the sales numbers of the iPhone 5?
     
  9. Peon

    Peon Notebook Virtuoso

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    People don't buy Windows Phones because there's no app ecosystem for them. In the long term, this is actually not that big a problem for Microsoft given how they have a very successful history of paying developers to make apps for their platform - that strategy worked very well for the Xbox, and all Windows Phone needs is the smartphone equivalent of Halo (though the killer app here probably won't be a game) to gain a foothold in the market. If anything, the bigger problem is time - smartphones, even flagship ones like the iPhone 5 and the SGS 3, rarely hold the market's attention for more than 6 months. If Microsoft doesn't come out with something must-have amazing during that 6 month period of newness, Windows Phone could likely go the way of the Palm Pre.

    As for Windows RT, Clover Trail eliminates any reason it has to exist so I don't expect that to ever take off. Somehow, I get the feeling that with Windows RT Microsoft was hedging their bets against Intel's collapse between now and Windows 9's release more than anything.
     
  10. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    By the way, here's an interesting comparison between the success of Windows 7 and the [cough] "success" of Windows 8:

     
  11. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Agreed. Clover Trail tablets (such as the ElitePads that Emirates Air are buying en masse for their flight crews) make Windows RT tablets pretty hard to justify. They out-perform their ARM cousins, have comparable battery life and lightness, have x86 compatibility and digitizer stylus support, and are priced similarly. The Dell Latitude 10 and Lenovo Thinkpad Tablet 2 are priced at $649 with 64 gb SSDs, just $49 more than a Surface RT with similar onboard storage.
     
  12. species5618w

    species5618w Notebook Consultant

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    And do you see them in stores? I haven't. Do you see any professional review of clover trail? I haven't. Samsung is actively sabotaging 500T in Canada. Something is fishy there.

    I actually would say Surface RT is selling in Canada (not hard to do when you have a single store in a city with 2 million people). iPad don't support OSX apps. Many people said it was a huge mistake to use iOS rather than OSX, yet here we are. Mind you, I still think it's a mistake for M$, but then I also think iPad is useless, what do I know, right?
     
  13. 6730b

    6730b Notebook Deity

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    10. ... Ballmer retires to play golf.
    rofl
     
  14. Cloudfire

    Cloudfire (Really odd person)

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    I really hope so. Microsoft deserve a big spanking for the epic failure Win8 really is

    There is a reason why big computer companies like Acer, Asus etc went out public and said they really don`t care for Win8. They knew Win8 would hurt their sales
     
  15. species5618w

    species5618w Notebook Consultant

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    I don't think Windows 8 will hurt their sales. What's a customer going to buy? A Mac? Unfortunately, it will not help their sales either. What Acer and Asus want is a windows OS that will make Windows 7 obsolete (which is pretty hard to do given how good W7 is) and will not run on existing hardware. Windows 8 failed to deliver on either except for tablets. With competition from iPad and smartphones, PC sales will drop no matter what.

    For tablets, a new market has been opened, but the OEMs dropped the ball there. Surface RT is hugely overpriced (it has a higher profit margin than iPad) and does not support existing apps, yet it's the best selling Windows tablet right now. All OEM tablets are even more overpriced and more importantly, they are nowhere to be found. The only tablet that has been reviewed widely is the Yoga13, which is not a pure tablet. Of course, the lack of Metro Office didn't help either.

    Today, if somebody introduced a RT tablet at $299 and an atom tablet at $399 with no bloatware and proper marketing, I suspect they would do well in the marketplace and their profit margin shouldn't be lower than a netbook.
     
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Acer and Asus didn't complain about Windows 8, unless I missed something (please provide a cite). Acer's CEO complained about Microsoft selling its own hardware (Surface) that would compete with Acer products. There's a big difference. Acer sells several Windows 8 tablets (the Iconia W510 and W700) so I doubt they're anti-Windows-8...they didn't have to sell tablets at all or even Windows 8 machines at all (nothing prevents them from selling Windows 7 PCs if that's what they wanted to do).

    The companies that have groused about Windows 8 (as opposed to the Surface hardware) are companies like Steam that sell software. Not the hardware manufacturers. And that has nothing to do with the user interface and everything to do with business competitors smearing each other. Because now Microsoft has its own software store built into Windows 8 so people won't always look at third-party options, Steam's near-monopoly on gaming software could be in danger in the future. But Steam's anger should not be taken seriously because they are breaking out of their traditional market too, adding a big-screen setup meant to be played through a TV like a console (thus going into direct competition with the Xbox 360).
     
  17. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    The simple answer to that one is: Nothing. The point here is, when Windows 7 came out, it gave a sizable boost to PC sales, because people liked the new OS (and really hated Vista, too). With Windows 8, the opposite is true: People still really like Windows 7, and many hate, or are at the very least confused by Windows 8. Rightly so, since the OS makes no sense at all on traditional hardware, which is mostly what we are talking about here.

    Consequence: No sales boost, but the exact opposite. People seem to be holding back. There's really no need nor incentive for them to get a new machine, so they don't. Simple as that.

    P.S.: But, yes, Mac usage is growing by leaps and bounds, too. This is a trend that has developed for some time now, and Windows 8 will accelerate it.
     
  18. species5618w

    species5618w Notebook Consultant

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    We can debate all day about the merits of Windows 8, but one thing is for sure, Windows 7 does not suck as badly as Windows Vista. Unfortunately, neither Microsoft nor OEMs can do anything about it. Mind you, even as good as Windows 7 is, 40% of Windows users are still using Windows XP. There is just nothing in the traditional PC market that is revolutionary anymore. It's a cash cow with no growth potential no matter how good Windows 8 was. On the flip side, those who needs a new PC will buy Windows 8 no matter what, since they don't have a choice. Mac is not a threat yet and Windows 8 will not change that. Windows 8 already beat OSX on steam and in terms of apps. If you can't figure out how to use Windows 8 with a mouse, don't try a Mac with a mouse.

    The danger to M$ comes from tablets and smartphone and that's what Windows 8 is trying to address.
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    This. The traditional PC market was in decline before Windows 8. No matter how the latest Windows desktop OS was designed, it would not stop the decline of the desktop/laptop market. Why not? The decline wasn't due to bad desktop OSes; it was due to increasing interest in different hardware paradims. The decline is due to the fact that many people, consumers and businesspeople alike, have decided that tablet form factors work better for certain tasks than traditional laptops do. The goal of Windows 8 was not to fight back people's interest in tablets, but to more closely integrate tablets and laptops/desktops, so that when people DO get a tablet (as a primary device or as a secondary device, more and more people will), they're more likely to keep their entire ecosystem Microsoft.

    I will say it's FAR easier to switch files and workflow between a Windows 7 desktop at work and a Windows 8 convertible tablet than it would be between a Windows 7 desktop and an iPad. And before Windows 8, the iPad was the dominant tablet in many industries, including the legal field.

    Good point about OSX. That's not an OS designed around keyboard-and-mouse either, but instead keyboard-and-trackpad, with a heavy emphasis on multi-finger gestures (which have just as steep a learning curve as the bezel gestures of Windows 8 for people who are used to Windows XP or Windows 7).

    Spelling MS with a dollar-sign makes kittens cry. Yes, Microsoft is profit-minded. All companies are. Don't be Ke$ha. Use the letter between the "a" and the "d". It's on the home row of your keyboard for a reason ;)
     
  20. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Not true. On the business side, as always, people will be able to order their machines with Windows 7 until the end of its life cycle, meaning until the end of this decade. Even on the consumer side you can order your computer with Windows 7 if you look for it. My expectation is that this option will become more widely available once the depth of the fiasco that is Windows 8 comes into sharper focus.

    And of course, that goal could have been approached in a multitude of alternative ways, without alienating Windows' core user base.

    Before Windows 8 the iPad was the dominant tablet? Your choice of grammar there is hilarious! This is why...
     
  21. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Two separate issues. I was talking about tablets in industry. That's article about tablet sales numbers overall, including consumer purchases. Windows 8 tablets such as the Thinkpad Tablet 2 and HP Elitepad are well-poised to upset the iPad's current title as favorite tablet of the business sector (for everyone from members of the Oregon judiciary to airplane flight crews being issued them).

    The consumer market is another matter, and one where I think MS tablets are not as well-poised to become mainstream dominant. They may be a profitable niche product, and that's fine (just like Mac laptops are a profitable niche product but not mainstream dominant, but MS's current recipe is not one for mainstream consumer tablet domination. They offer nothing to compete with the Kindle Fire and iPad Mini, and for casual consumer use, the iPad 4 is probably a better choice for most people than the Surface RT. But I wasn't talking about consumer use; I was talking about business tablets.
     
  22. Cloudfire

    Cloudfire (Really odd person)

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    Lets be real here:
    We all know touch pads and mobile devices are selling like hotcakes compared to PC. We all know PC sales have been dropping like crazy ever since iPad was introduced.
    The clear majority of OEMs don`t make money on a small niche like gamers. They make money on people who buy cheap machines mostly for surfing and office work.

    What do you think will happen when the OS stinks, the very core of how a user will experience the PC? People will rather buy an iPad or a Samsung Touchpad with a OS that is customized for that very device, without having to struggle with things like how to power of a notebook (which should have been easy) or even closing a program for crying out loud...
    Thats why the PC sales are hurting, thats why OEMs was speaking up against Win8, and I bet thats why Microsoft was forced (yes forced) by the industry to use the same Win8 key to be able to downgrade to Win7. Or else this would have been an epic disaster and the OEMs would have refused to help Microsoft sell Win8
     
  23. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    I asked you before to provide a citation. I've heard laptop OEMs complain about Microsoft's Surface hardware line (competing with their own hardware), but not about the Windows 8 OS itself. Those are two very different issues.
     
  24. Cloudfire

    Cloudfire (Really odd person)

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    I don`t remember where I read it. There are literally millions of sites regarding Win8 and OEMs and I won`t use my energy in finding them. Acer previously doubted that Windows 8 would do them any good because users won`t like it. And it seems they are right.

    Both Acer and Asus is complaining about bad laptop sales with Win8.
    ASUS CFO Reports Sluggish Windows 8 Sales

    Surface, iPad, Galaxy, doesn`t matter, they all compete against PCs, especially notebooks. Featuring a horrible OS won`t help the sales either
     
  25. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    You would have to show evidence of this in fact happening. Sorry, but "everyone from members of the Oregon judiciary to airplane flight crews" (which happen to be the two singular entities on the planet to report adoption of these things) doesn't really cut it here. Mind you, I don't blame you, since other evidence just doesn't exist, and cannot be expected to exist so soon. However, until such evidence exists, your belief in the success of Windows tablets remains pure speculation.
     
  26. rooney3

    rooney3 Notebook Enthusiast

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    Everyone keeps talking about the "Microsoft business model" w/o keeping in mind that Microsoft's help desk, is one of the best. Microsoft's certifications are among the most sought after in the IT industry. Microsoft Server powers most of the really big business. Not really a Microsoft fan myself, but come on! Give unto Cesar what belongs to Cesar!


    Just got my new Horize P150HM Notebook!
    _________________________
    Intel Core i7-2860QM
    Geforce GTX485M @ 2GB
    12GB RAM @ 1600Mhz
    250GB SSD
     
  27. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Those were examples of industries that currently mass-issue iPads. It's too early to see which companies and which industries switch over to Windows 8 (most business-class Windows 8 tablets were only released in mid-November). I suspect that Windows 8 tablets will supersede the iPad in the legal and aviation industries, because it's a better tool for the job and it's easier to structure an IT department to handle Windows PCs and Windows tablets than Windows PCs and iPads, but just three weeks after the Thinkpad Tablet 2 and ElitePad were released, we're not going to see them ALREADY having taken over industries. You can't demand overnight results like that.
     
  28. Rodster

    Rodster Merica

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    And now for some positive news:

    "Touch-screen WIndows 8 PCs are in demand. In fact, PC makers can't get enough supply of some models."

    Windows 8 touch PC demand strong | Microsoft - CNET News

    "Gerry Smith, Lenovo's recently named president of the North America region, tells CNET that the industry underestimated demand for touch on computers. He also says Lenovo will eventually become the top PC vendor in the U.S., not just worldwide."

    Lenovo exec: We didn't realize how big touch would be | Business Tech - CNET News
     
  29. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    It's been well-documented in the Sony section that Sony can't keep up with demand for the Vaio Duo 11. I suspect the same is true of the Dell XPS 12 (my other favorite convertible), though I haven't looked.
     
  30. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    I agree, and I didn't.
     
  31. species5618w

    species5618w Notebook Consultant

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    Wikipedia still shows 70% of access were done by windows machines, Less 10% from iOS. Less than 5% from Android. So if you want to be real, get your facts straight.

    Yes, tablets are replacing low end casual PCs, but their will not replace PC in general. It's simply not an ideal device for heavy content creation. On the other hand, PCs will not be able to compete with the iPad in mobile surfing and gaming, no matter how good Windows 8 is. A customer who needs a PC will not buy an iPad and vice versa. Nothing to do with Windows 8.

    The purpose of Windows 8 is to compete in the tablet market. Will it succeed? Who knows, but I wouldn't bet against it. What got OEMs worried is that Microsoft is getting into the hardware business, so they can't just sit on their hands anymore.

    If you can't figure out how to power off a notebook or close a program, I can't help you. It's no harder than the iPad. And if somebody can't figure that out, I highly doubt he would be able to figure out how to downgrade to Win7 even if M$ allowed it.

    And what are the OEMs going to do without selling w8? Go bankrupt? Let's be real. They can't use OS X, and if you can't figure out Windows 8, I doubt your will like Linux.

    "If you look for it"? people can't figure out how to shut down their notebook, yet they will look for a computer with Windows 7? And you do know that Microsoft controls Windows 7 licensing right? How are you going to do it without Microsoft's blessing?

    Although if I were M$, I wouldn't care. A dollar from Windows 7 sales is the same as a dollar from Windows 8 sales. They will just laugh to the bank. If by the end of this decade, the majority of businesses are on Windows 7 rather than Windows XP, I think M$ will call it a major win. However, once Windows 8 becomes main stream in consumer space, businesses will have to teach people how to use the start menu. Wouldn't that be funny?
     
  32. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Sure, if they're interested, they can figure it out. By asking, for example, same way they get all those other pieces of information they need to get through life.

    I do not have the slightest idea what it is you could even possibly be talking about. Microsoft is selling licenses for their operating systems, yes. No "blessing" required. All you need to do is buy the licenses. Which is exactly what Dell, Lenovo, etc., etc. are doing.

    Thankfully, you are not in any position of responsibility at Microsoft. Or so one would hope.

    By the way, I'll tell you a secret: It's the consumers who decide what they will buy. Neither Microsoft nor anybody else can force them to buy stuff they don't want. If it turns out that the consumers do not want Windows 8, but want Windows 7, you can bet your hiney that OEMs will sell them computers with Windows 7. And Microsoft will sell them the Windows 7 licenses they need to do it.
     
  33. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    Very true.

    And even more importantly so true with the big businesses (including all forms of government) who are the ones that make or break the market.

    I work for a Fortune 15 company with around 200K employees, most of which have one or more PCs at their disposal, including laptops. When I got the job, W98SE was flavour of the day and ThinkPads were still built by IBM in U.S. and Mexico. So yes, I've been around for a while...:hi2:

    Vista was ignored. Completely and utterly. Everything was ordered with XP, and if the manufacturer wouldn't or couldn't comply, they got dropped like a hot potato. No exceptions, no excuses.

    The company-wide move from XP to W7 was finally completed several months ago.

    From what our IT folks are telling me, W8 has a 99% chance of receiving the same warm welcome that Vista did in its prime...

    And I honestly don't see *any* government agency rushing to order PCs with W8, regardless of how MS might feel about that...

    My $0.02 only...
     
  34. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    I see companies that use both tablets and desktops ordering Windows 8 so that they only need to train their employees on one OS, not two (saves in training-time-related costs). For businesses without tablet fleets, I anticipate they'll stick with Windows 7 for the same reason my firm still uses Windows XP: no pressing need to upgrade.
     
  35. species5618w

    species5618w Notebook Consultant

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    Like learning how to use a new OS? :)

    And I will tell you a secret. That's not how it works in a monopoly. The PC market will shrink, no doubt about that, but there's no challenger to M$ in that space. As for whether it's W7 or W8, M$ will do what's best in their interests, not what consumers want. Plus, if M$ really want to cave, they will add start menu back to w8. It's a lot cheaper than maintaining two versions of the software. M$ is not going to spend the money or the effort to add every single new technology to both w7 and w8.

    Windows 7 has been out for three years, yet your company just finished upgrading. And believe it or not, your company is ahead of the curve. Therefore, M$ would not care whether your company likes W8 or not for at least another three years, plenty of time to get the world used to the new interface.

    It's also a question whether M$ cares about you skipping Windows versions at all. You makes it sound like your company is buying computers from a street vendor. That's usually not how large company purchases work. You need to work with both the hardware and software company. In this case, the main issue with Microsoft is not software purchase, but long term support. You need to make sure M$ does not pull support while your dinosaur is too slow to adapt. Therefore, I suspect your company provides a constant stream of revenue to M$ no matter which versions of Windows you use. And it's not like your company can go to OS X or Linux. Microsoft should worry a lot more about BYOD than your company jumping ship.

    And finally, companies care about security and manageability a lot more than UI. Windows 8 introduced new security and enterprise management functionality. As I said above, it's a lot cheaper to port the w7 UI to w8 than to backport these new features to w7. Despite XP's popularity, Microsoft hasn't ported all the features of W7 to XP.

    Therefore, I think your company will upgrade to W8 or the next version sooner or later. Whether Microsoft adds start menu back to W8 or the next version, that's uncertain.

    p.s. Government agencies usually don't rush to buy anything (other than weapons). Neither does a "fortune 15 company with 200K employees"

    For the next 5 years, I agree. Much like Windows 7 before it and Windows XP before that. It's also very possible that businesses will skip Windows 8, as the update cycle is generally longer than 3 years. Providing the next version of Windows is not a complete lemon, businesses will likely move to that. That's assuming workstations are still in use 10 years from now though. I suspect the next big thing would be virtualization with a centralized server provide multiple virtual machines.
     
  36. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Well, I'll just say that you certainly seem to know some "secrets" that I am not aware of, and leave it at that.
     
  37. merlin_72032

    merlin_72032 Notebook Evangelist

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    Am I ahead of the curve because I am preparing to upgrade my infrastructure to Server 2012 and Windows 8? :D
     
  38. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Yep, you're at what's called the "bleeding edge". It's called that for a reason. Good luck.
     
  39. merlin_72032

    merlin_72032 Notebook Evangelist

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    Thank you, you are right, but I already got a lot of things figure it out. It isn't a big jump for me since I already have latest technology in place. Server 2012 can do NIC Teaming out of the box, and it even load-balance for virtual machine. That is a huge plus! Windows 8 runs better than Windows 7 under the hood, but I will let other people argue about interface design. I learn to adapt. That is the nature of my job. :)
     
  40. Cloudfire

    Cloudfire (Really odd person)

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    They would have obviously continued to sell Windows 7 and wouldn`t have included Win8 on their products until Microsoft fixed a thing or two about the OS.
    Win7 licences are still selling. Win7 will recieve updates pretty much to Win9 is here.
    And since OEMs is what keeping Microsoft alive, you can bet your behind that Microsoft would have issued a patch for Win8 that would have removed the ways Win8 is working, ASAP.

    And may I add: I`ve learned Win8 from inside out. I know everything about it, yet you fanboys always seem to think that the people that hate this disastrous garbage don`t know how to use it...
    But whatever. People who defend this OS speak volumes. I`m not going to use my energy on this discussion anymore

    Its totally ridiculous that there is so many software out there that removes a lot of the key functions of Win8 because many people HATE how Win8 works. They were here the moment Win8 was released. You even get an offer to include a fix when downloading extremely popular software lke WinZip or VLC. They didn`t include it just for fun. The demand is obviously there
     
  41. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Side-note, but could we avoid using "retarded" as an insult in this discussion? As a parent of a special-needs child, it's sad to see people use terms like that to insult. There's just no need to go there in a debate about a computer operating system.

    Thanks.
     
  42. ajkula66

    ajkula66 Courage and Consequence

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    I have absolutely no idea how you came to this conclusion but that's not what I was saying.

    That's not how we work. Period. And this company - in different guises and under different names - has been around for over a century.

    Our servers do not use MS products. That's as much as I'm allowed to say.

    I very much doubt that. In fact, I'd be willing to bet against it.

    And it has absolutely no bearing on the issue that I was talking about.

    Partially true when it comes to the government and a huge "it depends" for the big businesses...
     
  43. booboo12

    booboo12 Notebook Prophet

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    I gotta agree with you here. I think Microsoft wanted to hedge their bets with RT: Intel's never had a great track record for creating processors and chipsets for the kind of devices that RT represents (fanless, low power consumption). They wanted to ensure that they'd have something that competes with other tablets on all fronts just in case Intel didn't deliver.

    With the latest Atom tablets getting great reviews for battery life and performance + the ability to run legacy apps if necessary, going with a Atom tablet like the Ativ Smart PC or W500 is really a no brainer decision over a Windows RT device that cost's around the same price.
     
  44. philmurray

    philmurray Newbie

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    I've been reading the various comments in this discussion and feel we are missing the main point here.

    Notebooks (the reason this forum exists!) traditionally are keyboard and mouse driven devices. Whether Tablets can be classified as a subset of Notebooks is a debatable point but assuming we are discussing a straight notebook, Windows 8 (although Metro only has the 1 window) is a composite of two paradigms where only one of those paradigms makes sense on this hardware. All MS had to do was have a configurable option that let you choose your prefered UI style at install or even login and all the agro would go away.

    Windows 8 as a Windows 7 upgrade is pretty good. The under the hood changes, speed improvements, security improvements etc etc are all valid reasons to upgrade. What is putting the majority of users off is the hoops they have to go through to switch off all the Metro based UI features so that they can get back to the Windows 7 interface but with Windows 8 underlying it. I have just about massaged my system to do this although the charms bar still has a habit of appearing at odd moments.

    When I need to use a touch based device then I will certainly look for a Windows 8 based system in the hope that compatability with my other systems will be strong. I will even experiment with the Metro UI and perhaps grow to love it. I can see that a lot of effort has gone into both these systems and I do not begrudge MS expanding their (and their users) horizon. What I do begrudge is being forced to do so.

    Perhaps a service pack that provides such a configuration option (and I mean ON/OFF style, not trawling through a myriad of settings and registry hacks) would be something MS should be contemplating. Sure as hell there are going to be third-party offering that will do this (they almost there at the moment).

    So, MS business model about to collapse? No way, MS are not stupid. They have taken this route for a reason and probably with many arguments on the way. They have only made one slip, making the Metro UI the prefered UI by default and making it difficult to stick to the original UI without Metro getting in the way. Once we get round that (with or without MS) then Windows 8 would be an obvious upgrade from Windows 7.