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    John Dvorak on Win8

    Discussion in 'Windows OS and Software' started by Pirx, Jun 1, 2012.

  1. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Look here, seems like I'm not the only one:

    " The real problem is that it is both unusable and annoying. It makes your teeth itch as you keep asking, “Why are they doing this!?”

    " No business will tolerate this software, let me assure you. As a productivity tool, it is unusable."

    " This is a problem for Microsoft investors. The potential for this OS to be an unrecoverable disaster for the company is at the highest possible level I’ve ever seen. It ranks up there with the potential for disaster that the Itanium chip presented for Intel Corp. It’s that bad."

    " The public and enterprise users are going to demand Windows 7 throughout 2013 and until Microsoft gives up on this soulless Metro interface and gets a new design team, fast."
     
  2. coolguy

    coolguy Notebook Prophet

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    Yes, the metro UI wouldn't suit the traditional desktop users. It makes things much slower.

    Who has time to switch back and forth between the desktop and the start screen?
     
  3. Falco152

    Falco152 Notebook Demon

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    I thought the metro UI is designed for the future for those who can't even learn two different interfaces. The very same people who treat their pc as smartphones
     
  4. davepermen

    davepermen Notebook Nobel Laureate

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    still there, not being able to understand win8, prix, and thus making "your point" showing you don't understand it?

    fun. i left for so long, and you have not learned anything. in the meantime, i continue to enjoy win8 and understand it, and laugh about all of those points.

    and i'll leave again for half a year, or so, thanks to annoying haters who can't move on and LEARN TO UNDERSTAND NEW STUFF.

    and yes, on the desktop, and it rocks.
     
  5. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Good for you, Dave. Enjoy!

    The rest of us, in the meantime, is going to wait until somebody offers a usable UI for Win8.
     
  6. TreeTops Ranch

    TreeTops Ranch Notebook Deity

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    And Dave, some also said the same about windows ME. ;)
     
  7. olyteddy

    olyteddy Notebook Deity

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    Metro Edition...Coincidence? :eek:
     
  8. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    I have to agree the public and business users will want to keep Windows 7 for quite some time. Will M$ alow this on new systems, doubtfull. They will force us to get the new OS. This is why I contemplate real soon upgrading so that I'll have another system that will last for four years or so.

    On another note, as they say money talks and bull walks. Well the money people are talking and not saying very good things. Maybe M$ will listen a bit more closely..............
     
  9. SL2

    SL2 Notebook Deity

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    What's MS excuse for forcing this on desktop, non-touch users? Why won't they allow any options? (Spare me the sarcasms and jokes. ;))

    Sure, MS want to have similar looks across the operating systems, but is it worth all these unsatisfied customers and lowered sales?
    Honestly I don't understand this, it will only lead to lowered sales now, even if everybody uses in 2015.
    I'm not going to miss the start menu, but MS should have kept it as an option until W9, at least.
     
  10. hockeymass

    hockeymass that one guy

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    I'm going to miss the start menu if the alternative is a goofy fullscreen collection of colored tiles.
     
  11. SL2

    SL2 Notebook Deity

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    My alternative is to put most programs in the task bar, there's enough space for every program I use at least once a month.
     
  12. StormJumper

    StormJumper Notebook Virtuoso

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    Sounds like you didn't read it - it wasn't just him as you eluded to so this tells me that you didn't even read or understand from where he was addressing the problem from the link.

    Not long enough...and giving nothing of meaningful to gleam from to even understand where your coming from???

    And your point?? Name calling and giving no real substance of debate doesn't give anyone on here any good information resource to read off or understand what is being said between the lines...

    LOL....yeah like a rock alright doesn't do anything except become paper weight....

    This is the very problem they fail to address rather make two separate O/S one for desktop, laptop and one for touch screen, smartphone they think everyone owns all of these gadgets already. And I highly doubt people nowdays or even today have that much disposable income to toss away. Regardless touch will never our match a real keyboard touch and feel and input along with the mouse or mouse pad. That is something I most likely will still be here long after. Just look around the world not everyone can afford a touch screen or smartphone let alone the cost to maintain them. And touchscreen aren't cheap by any long stretch. If your touch screen fails when then? What are one to do-they haven't address this part and as with any electronic devices that touching will eventually fail or stop working and then what????? For keyboard, mouse, mousepad, those are fail safe devices that can be replaced and used as a whole unit to complement each other. That is something a touch screen can never do not can a smart phone do since their keyboard is the screen itself.
     
  13. SL2

    SL2 Notebook Deity

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    There's one person here who loves to mock everyone who doesn't accept changes instantly.

    Just ignore.
     
  14. HTWingNut

    HTWingNut Potato

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    It's not about accepting changes. Just because it's new doesn't mean it's good... or better. Just that it's different. Not offering the option, which they can easily do, is just pure idiocy by Microsoft.
     
  15. lenovodude

    lenovodude Notebook Enthusiast

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    I wouldn't use Windows 8 even if they paid me a 1000 US dollars!

    This is the worst thing that MS ever developed! Far worse than Windows Millenium and Vista
     
  16. Rodster

    Rodster Merica

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    Can wait for the Microsoft Mojave Commercials. :)

    I'm still looking forward to Windows 8 but it's going to be on a Tablet.
     
  17. nu_D

    nu_D Notebook Deity

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    I thought that Metro nonsense was only for tablets?
    I read a post they're getting rid of Aero which led me to believe it's going to be like Windows 7, just not shiny.

    Can someone please clarify what exactly is going on.
     
  18. nu_D

    nu_D Notebook Deity

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    Is there any way to disable it? Or am I stuck with text in dark boxes.
    I just want Windows 8 to be a glorified Windows 7 SP2.
     
  19. nu_D

    nu_D Notebook Deity

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    Microsoft lost their damn minds in that case.

    Oh well. Another reason to get a MBP I guess.
     
  20. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Yes, but they have announced that it will be gone in the Release Candidate.
     
  21. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    That is one of my biggest fears. For productivity and general laptop/desktop use Apple will be the best choice over PC's. M$ could loose a huge market segment to them and also PC market share. With lowered production rates of PC hardware vendors and OEM's could fall into trouble then driving PC and parts prices threw the roof.

    M$'s decisions here could end up affecting alot of people, not just the end consumers/users........................
     
  22. coolguy

    coolguy Notebook Prophet

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    The release preview is the release candidate version. Aero would be cut out in the final release.
     
  23. HTWingNut

    HTWingNut Potato

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    [​IMG]

    No Aero?
     
  24. StormJumper

    StormJumper Notebook Virtuoso

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    That would be true but there are older versions of windows out there still floating around and probably being used out there in the wild. So I doubt that happen anytime soon. Unfortunately some Mac software of the same software just cost more then the PC version not to mention hardware and til that comes down to PC version prices that will be a hard sell. Also there more people writing software shareware and paid for PC O/S so until that crowd of programmers stop suddenly of which I highly doubt it the PC will still rule over the Mac.

    For me Aero is a good feature to have but you have to have the hardware to run it and it does require a good amount of resource to do it but it's much nicer to the eye then blocked views. I for one think Aero is a good feature just that the requirements means your system has to be able to able to handle it. I have a Dell 1525 T8100 4Gig and it uses W7x64Ultsp1 and it works great and before and after looks comparing those with Aero and no Aero is dramatically different to the eye.
     
  25. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    My statement is not that it would litterally overnight kill the PC but over time it could severly hurt PC sales. I am also not saying APPLE will become predominant in sales, although it is possible, but it could markedly increase their market share. Time will tell all.................
     
  26. HTWingNut

    HTWingNut Potato

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    Run with Aero on and off and check your battery life. It won't budge a bit. I've tried. Aero uses little resources especially now with GPU integrated with CPU, it's always active.
     
  27. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    No, it's not. That's why it's called a Release Preview, not a Release Candidate. And, yes, Microsoft is doing things differently this time; to me this looks like some badly screwed-up project management here. Whta a surprise that would be... :rolleyes:

    Yep, see here.
     
  28. olyteddy

    olyteddy Notebook Deity

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    Windows Classic style is what got me to accept XP after 98. Moving up to W7 I spurned Aero until some piece of software required it. Under the hood improvements are what I'd upgrade for, but not at the cost of losing my current workflow.
     
  29. coolguy

    coolguy Notebook Prophet

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    Isn't the release preview the final public release before Windows 8 goes to RTM? Microsoft changed the naming scheme for their Windows beta releases too this time.
     
  30. HTWingNut

    HTWingNut Potato

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    Nope it's still release candidate before rtm. This is still "beta".
     
  31. hockeymass

    hockeymass that one guy

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    I guess Microsoft has been using Intel's tick-tock schedule, except instead of tick-tock, it's good-crap.

    98 (good) - ME (crap) - XP (good) - Vista (crap, relatively) - 7 (good) - 8 (crap)

    In addition to being less than thrilled with Metro, the use of the ribbon on every single window in explorer is ridiculous. It works nicely for office but it's so overkill for file browsing that it's actually sort of comical.
     
  32. killkenny1

    killkenny1 Too weird to live, too rare to die.

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    I would give "Win8 (crap, relatively)". Since all the tweaks made in desktop mode are awesome. Metro UI is a bit questionable though. It's not crap, it's just weird for now.
     
  33. coolguy

    coolguy Notebook Prophet

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  34. HTWingNut

    HTWingNut Potato

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  35. booboo12

    booboo12 Notebook Prophet

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    I've run Aero on a Wind U100, one of the first 10 inch netbooks. (gma 950 graphics)

    If a netbook can run Aero (and run it well) then I'm not quite believing the battery life thing...sorry MS

    As for Dvorak, I respect him as a journalist and industry veteran but he alluded to the same thing with a column on mice ages ago. Now near no one would even think about using a computer without one.
     
  36. StormJumper

    StormJumper Notebook Virtuoso

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    I highly doubt that any time soon or in the future. The biggest reason being Apple refuses to let other but compatible Apple computers. This will never let them overcome PC and the various PC manufacture. This one businesss model letting everyone and anyone company build a PC compatible computer and components was a God send that let the PC overtake and dominate the computer market to this very day. If Apple every hopes to overtake the PC this is the one area they will have to give up just being the sole maker of Apple computers and if not they can figure themselves Second place for years to come. PC sales will always dominate Apples sales there are more PC and the software is cheaper. Cheaper might not always be a good software but then again shareware is a good alternative that turns out to be a good program aka Open Office.....
     
  37. TANWare

    TANWare Just This Side of Senile, I think. Super Moderator

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    Again, we will see over time. The problem may lie in if no one at first upgrades their PC's other than tablets because of Win8 being forced down their throats and Apple even holds onto their current sales the proportion of sales could fall over to Apple. Again my argments are trying to stay on topic as this is a market person evaluating what M$ is doing here.

    If people hold off on upgrading it could cause a glut of systems and parts making them cheap but cutting profit margins to the point it could close up some shops and even severly hurt manufacturers/OEM's/System builders etc. This again is bad for the market, that is the stock market and eventually the end consumers.

    I really hope I am wrong, way wrong, as wrong as some one could ever possibly be! If I am even slightly correct about the possible, and I must state again POSSIBLE, issues it could be a very bumpy road ahead for the PC.............
     
  38. talin

    talin Notebook Prophet

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    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
     
  39. StormJumper

    StormJumper Notebook Virtuoso

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    Actually they can try but XP, 98, Vista aka :rolleyes: , W7 will still be floating around. And W8 aka ME will produce a working W9 that would be more then suffice to fix their debacle...again.... :rolleyes:

    Actually endusers will always upgrade their hardware so I don't think those manufacture will go out only those whom produce substandard hardware will be the losers here.

    I think the PC market for whatever reason is and will always be there not everyone can afford a Apple price hardware when they can get one of equal value or more from a PC... aka Walmart Emachines....does it job for what it does.....and there are always refurbished PC out there....


    But back to the topic of W8 I definitely think until they dump metro or make two different interface one for Desktop and laptop and one just for touch screen unit phone and touchscreen interface they will face stiff challenge to even get people to use it.
     
  40. hockeymass

    hockeymass that one guy

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    The idea is questionable. I would classify the current implementation as "crap". The Win 8 desktop/Metro abomination is essentially a stripped down Win7 desktop with the answer to a question nobody asked bolted on in place of the start menu.
     
  41. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    Plenty of people have asked for exactly this; they just aren't regulars on this forum. You're free to disagree with the mass-market, but let's not ignore that the mass-market IS clamoring for continuity between smartphone, tablet, and computer.

    Why Can't PCs Work More Like iPhones? - NYTimes.com

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/01/t...uters-more-phonelike.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

    Why your computer is becoming more like your phone - CNN

    [​IMG]

    Apple - Launchpad - Instant access to all your apps.
     
  42. hockeymass

    hockeymass that one guy

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    I don't see "continuity between smartphone, tablet, and computer" as being at all synonymous with replacing a small popout menu with a cluttered screen full of tiles that does the same thing, except takes up an entire monitor and is LESS organized. The concept works decently well on a tablet or smartphone. It makes no sense for a desktop.

    There are CONCEPTS of mobile OS design that might be well adapted to desktop use. That doesn't mean that essentially copy pasting the design to the desktop arena is the way to go. Tiles could have been incorporated into the desktop, or as an Expose-like overlay, but the use of the Metro screen to replace the start menu is just a step back.
     
  43. HTWingNut

    HTWingNut Potato

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    I agree with hockeymass. Smartphones and tablets are not designed for ease of input, period. The Metro UI is like the iPhone and iPod and iPad for consuming media. Trying to do anything productive and efficiently on those devices is nothing short of frustration to the point of wanting to whip the thing against a wall.
     
  44. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Oh really? Fascinating. You would not have any evidence that would support this claim of yours, now, would you? And, no, the articles you linked to do not provide any evidence of what "the mass-market" wants at all. All of these represent opinion pieces of individual, solitary writers, and none of them present any statistics at all that would speak to this question. Thus, all you can claim is that there are some individuals that support this idea, nothing more.
     
  45. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    In response to the assertion "the answer to a question nobody asked," citing to repeated articles in the NY Times and CNN that are asking for just that answer is a pretty appropriate response.
     
  46. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    Well, technically, yes. Although very few people mean the term "nobody" literally in a statement like the one you quoted. The point is, you have no information as to what it is that "the mass market" wants, which makes your statement inappropriately strong. While we're picking nits here... :D

    Bottom line, my guess is neither of us is a certified fortune-teller, so we'll have to see how things shake out.
     
  47. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    If the people who want this change were statistically insignificant, they wouldn't gotten repeated NY Times and CNN articles written describing the change quite favorably. News media reflects its audience.

    Yes. We don't know whether it's 1/3 or 2/3s of the mass-market who is going to prefer Win 8 over Win 7 (or Win XP). But it's not 100% and it's not zero either. I am tired of people asserting in these threads that nobody, or essentially nobody, wants this change.
     
  48. Pirx

    Pirx Notebook Virtuoso

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    But, the poll in the other thread clearly proves that it's 21.74%, as of right now. :p
     
  49. hockeymass

    hockeymass that one guy

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    Yes, there is a non-zero number of people who are in support of the implementation of Metro UI. Now that semantics are out of the way, what is the benefit of the Metro UI and why does increased convergence between devices benefit the end user moreso than the continuation of a design they've been using for 15 years? Also, how is the Metro UI going to pan out in a business environment?
     
  50. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

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    ...in that "internet forums as proxies for real life" world where 90% of the population is male, watches anime, drives a real-wheel-drive manual-transmission car, and uses Linux? :D

    I'll quote Anand Lal Shimpi because he says it better than I could:

    AnandTech - In-Depth with the Windows 8 Consumer Preview
     
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