John Dvorak on Win8

That is the opinion of one man, and I'll dare say that Anand and company have become very biased reviewers over the years, especially when it comes to Intel. For me anyway, I don't take him very seriously any more.

 

If you refer to the flop/success poll that is inacurate. I voted success but I wouldn't want it, not as it is planed...................

 

That big quote basically says "yeah, it's a step backwards for desktops and laptops, but it's GREAT for tablets!" Again, I think it's an AWESOME setup for tablets. I just do not agree with him that it had to come at the expense of ANY usability on the desktop side. If they really wanted to integrate the Metro UI, they could have kept it as a tiled overlay instead of replacing the start menu, or at least given the option. I don't like the start screen, I think it's clunky and pointless, and Anand Lal Shimpi telling me "no, you're wrong" isn't going to make me like it. Come on. It's a stripped down desktop with a tablet OS attached.

 

But this entire thread is based upon "the opinion of one man"! The title of the thread is "John Dvorak on Win8." As for any pro-Intel bias by Anand, that doesn't swing either way on the Win 8 versus Win 7 versus OSX versus Linux debate. As for not taking people seriously, John Dvorak has also predicted the failure of mouse-based operating systems (1984), the iPhone (2007), and the iPad (2010).

Between the two, I'll stick with Anand over Dvorak any day.

No, that's not what he said. One more time...

"Even if you’re on a massive 2560x1440 display with multiple monitors and never, ever touch the Windows Store or a Metro app, the Start screen serves as a much more configurable and useful application launcher than the tiny Start menu ever was."

"I don’t want to say that the Start screen is definitively better for PC users...but I strongly disagree with anyone who says that it’s worse."

And you're right, you don't have to agree with him, just like I don't have to agree with John Dvorak. But this thread was about showing what tech commentators said; we've already got a thousand-post thread where we've all stated our own impressions ad nauseum.

 

Yes, that's absolutely what he said. One more time...

 

"not greatly impacting" does NOT mean the same thing as "a step backward," particuarly when he expressly says "I strongly disagree with anyone who says that it’s worse." By "not greatly impacting," he means it's somewhat different, NOT that it's somewhat worse.

 

I think you'd be surprised of the makeup of the members here on NBR. Long ago are the days that most computer enthusiasts are assumed to be socially awkward geeks living in their mom's basement. Computers are much more prevalent these days, and whether it's for work, school, or home, the majority of people have educated themselves to stay relevant in the world today. I believe that the crowd that frequents NBR is composed of a wide variety of people from all walks of life, and if the vast majority of them see something obviously wrong with the Metro screen and Windows 8, then there probably really is a serious issue.

It really seems like there are a few narrow-sighted senior managers at Microsoft that are arrogant enough to believe that they know better than the users, even despite the public outcry about it. It's one thing to keep optimizing and improving upon the success of Windows 7 but something else to drastically change it for desktop users just to satisfy the tablet and smartphone users. If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

None of this would be as bad if we were simply given a choice. Well, in a way we are given a choice, and it will be to not buy Windows 8. I really hope someone with enough influence at MS realizes this and acts upon it.

 

It's clearly worse by virtue of not providing a choice. I really don't see how anyone can look at Metro compared to the start menu and say "yup, that's the ticket".

Why are you so vehemently defending this? Do you really think Metro and the forced start screen is a step in the right direction for DESKTOPS? Forget the tablet convergence junk. On its own, do you really believe it's a positive change?

 

That's your opinion, not Anand's, and yes, that's exactly what he says. Feel free to disagree with him, but don't say that he says it's worse for the desktop than Win 7, because he doesn't say that at all.

Yes. I find the Start Screen infinitely more convenient than the Start Menu. I have a column of shortcuts to frequently-used directories. Then a column of productivity software. Then time-burning stuff (music, photos, etc). Then games. For nearly anything I want to do, whether it be go to a director or open a program, I can do it with one keystroke and one click. And it's easy to see everything at a glance, because it pops up full-screen for me instead of just being tiny text in 1/8th of the screen.

I think it's fantastic. I think it's a real upgrade. I keep the things I like about Win 7 (snap-to-half-screen, the taskbar) and ditch the start menu, which I find inefficient and unpleasant to use, in exchange for something I consider vastly more efficient.

You say "there's no choice" in Windows 8, but Win 7 doesn't give me a choice to launch programs or directories this way, just like Win 8 doesn't give me a choice to use a start menu. Neither OS has any more choice than the other.

Why I am "vehemently" defending it? Someone could just as easily say "why are you or Pirx 'vehemently' attacking it?" It's a discussion forum. We could just skip the discussion, and I could buy it on day one, and you could not buy it at all, and neither of us would say a word about it to the other, but that'd kind of defeat the purpose of a discussion forum, right?

To bring this back to its beginning, here's a great quote:

"The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse'. There is no evidence that people want to use these things." -- John Dvorak, circa 1984

 

And so what exactly is the problem with leaving in the start menu?

 

Why doesn't OSX have a start menu? Why doesn't Mint have a full-screen pop-up launcher, the equivalent of LaunchPad or Start Screen? While people may like one or the other, basically, the full-screen app launcher and the menu-style app launcher are the same thing. OSes offer one or the other; I don't think anybody offers both.

As for why Microsoft isn't the first to offer both instead of just offering one or the other, I dunno, I'm not a programmer. Maybe it's extra security holes, maybe it runs faster and smoother if you don't have a bazillion different configuration options. But since NOBODY offers a choice between a menu-based app launcher and a full-screen pop-up app launcher, I suspect there's a good reason for it.

 

God god you're awefully argumentative Mitlov.

 

I was asked a direct question and I answered it. No ad hominems, no rudeness, just a direct answer to the question hockeymass asked me.

 

Actually, like I said before, with Linux you can easily install whatever flavor of shell you prefer. In fact, you can even set your system up so that different users can use different styles of shells. You can have one user use Unity, another K, and a third one Gnome if you like. It's as easy as installing a few packages, and setting a single shell variable appropriately. There is absolutely nothing inherently difficult, less secure, more resource intensive, etc., about giving people that option.

At the end of the day, you'll find that this very point lies at the heart of the intensive controversy swirling around Win8. Nobody has a problem with Microsoft offering people Metro, or a silly Start Screen. If this was offered as an option, nobody would give a hoot: People who like the Metro Start Screen would use it, people who don't would go on their merry ways without it.
What does raise people's hackles is Microsoft's decision to needlessly force a certain style of shell interaction on its users. I repeat, there was not and is not any technical or usability reason at all for Microsoft not giving people this choice. Their decision to ignore the wishes of a large segment of their user base is likely to cost them, dearly. See the Ubuntu Unity debacle.

 

Because for the last 15 years it hasn't had a start menu?

 

Precisely. The decision to remove all code supporting the start menu is just a stubborn "we're right and you're wrong" move by MSFT to force a square peg into a round hole.

 

But the whole idea of Win8 represent a bit of a shift in thinking. OSes offer one or the other up to this point, but now with Win8 MS is trying to offer an OS that works across all platforms. To me, because of that, there needs to be more choice given to the end users. Win8 should be able to fit whatever type of device you're using, and whatever personal preference you have. You like Metro, great. I don't, that's okay too.

But why is MS trying to block third party programs from running a start menu?

I installed Classic Shell on my Win8 partition, and it was great. Classic start menu, and Metro start screen if I wanted.

 

Do you guys not know who Dvorak is?

The fact that he says Windows 8 will fail is the best evidence I've seen so far that it will succeed.

edit: For those who aren't aware he's also predicted the failure of:

1) The mouse
2) The iPhone
3) Macintosh computers as a whole
4) The iPad

and a few other really hilarious things.

 

At this point, I almost thing a harsh prediction of failure from John Dvorak would be a good thing

On the Macintosh in 1984:

"The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse'. There is no evidence that people want to use these things."

On the iPhone:

"This is not an emerging business. In fact it's gone so far that it's in the process of consolidation with probably two players dominating everything, Nokia Corp. and Motorola Inc. ... There is no likelihood that Apple can be successful in a business this competitive. ... If it's smart it will call the iPhone a "reference design" and pass it to some suckers to build with someone else's marketing budget. Then it can wash its hands of any marketplace failures. It should do that immediately before it's too late. Samsung Electronics Ltd. might be a candidate. Otherwise I'd advise you to cover your eyes. You're not going to like what you'll see."

On the iPad:

"The tablet market has only succeeded as a niche market over the years and it was hoped Apple would dream up some new paradigm to change all that. From what I've seen and heard, this won't be it."

 

Like I said, so far this is the best argument so far that Windows 8's UI is going to be successful. If Dvorak hates it you know it must be good.

 

Just because he was completely wrong on everything else doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong on this. We really have no idea how well Windows 8 will do. Personally, I don't like what I've seen, but my opinion could change or they may change the final product. That's just my opinion and everyone is entitled to one.

 

He wasn't just wrong about "everything else." He literally predicted the failure of the MOUSE. That and a few other devices that are incredibly popular today.

Using his opinion as evidence that Windows 8 really is bad is hilarious. It means nothing. Less than nothing since he's consistently wrong about everything.

 

As does all of our opinions here too. It's all meaningless. Customers are meaningless apparently.

 

Hmm, so you feel that Dvorak's opinion is indeed the best evidence you have for the success of Win8? Fascinating. Well, I guess you can relax, then...

For the rest of us, I would get a little concerned now.

Who was it again that presented his opinion as evidence for anything of that sort? You may (or maybe not) have noticed that all I did was present his opinion, standing by itself. I never suggested it would be evidence for anything other than the existence of such opinions.

 

Maybe Dvorak was sick of being horribly wrong on those other things and saw a golden opportunity to repair some of his reputation by hating on Windows 8.

 

i think Dvorak's definition of success is different than being "right" when making predictions. Apparently, he's picked up a lot of notoriety from them.

I think pretty much everyone knew the iphone was going to be a success. The ipad was a little bit shaky, as was apple as a company when they were near bankruptcy. People generally seem to dislike windows 8 in a way that wasn't true of the iphone, apple computers in the late 90s, or even the ipad. That's the most troubling thing about windows 8 imo.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head on this one. It really doesn't matter that much what Dvorak thinks, or even what I myself think , but the fact is that there is widespread dislike of some of the decisions Microsoft has made regarding the Win8 GUI. Microsoft is wantonly ignoring those sentiments at their peril. They may have to pay the price for that.