Notebook sales plummet steepens: Windows 8 to blame? nahhh... tablets

More gloom for PC makers as European sales slump by 20 percent

some would like to blame this on Microsoft, but that's being very narrow.
I was a tad surprised by the accelerating death spiral of notebooks, however, and it looks like ACER may be on its way out; turning its attention to tabs

 

Well, there's also the fact that, as one poster points out, Windows 7 through 8.1 run just fine on older hardware. Why spend several hundred Euros on a new laptop or desktop when you can simply pick up a copy of a current Windows OS and install it on your current computer?

 

Well, sure, but why in the world would you go through the trouble and expense to "pick up a copy of a current Windows OS and install it on your current computer" when your existing OS on that computer (Windows 7) works just fine, at the very least. In fact, a very large number of users find that, on their current hardware, Windows 8 has no noticeable benefits, but a whole host of serious drawbacks in practical use.

But, yes, I find nothing particularly compelling about the latest generation of hardware being offered. I don't want a touchscreen, and I want a 16:10 aspect ratio. Since I cannot have that (certainly not a 16:10 screen on a PC), I won't buy. It's as simple as that. I just upgraded and rejuvenated my Dell Precision M6400 with a set of SSDs, so there is really nothing to ask for as far as speed is concerned, for the programs I am running now. Sure, newer models will be a bit faster, but the screen sucks, so I am better off with what I have.

 

I was thinking of upgrading from XP/Vista to one of the more current OSes, but I agree with you; why upgrade if you already have 7, for example?

Touchscreens on anything but convertible laptops like the X230t, Ideapad Yoga, and others is just a gimmick imo, and certainly CPU performance hasn't changed much since Sandy Bridge imo (I have no compelling reason to upgrade from an i7-2720QM, for example). I would like an upgrade from the Intel 330 though . (However, I'm saving my tech money for when the Surface RT + keyboard cover goes on sale)

 

This, core 2 duo(s) with 64gb ssd in my house are too powerful/responsive that I doubt I have to upgrade those until we have projected interface.
hdmi? screw that.

 

One thing to bear in mind is also that Vista was the last MS OS that had significantly raised the bar for hardware requirements, which was one of the reasons why it hadn't done too well at the outset, and was doomed by that outset later on...as well as with a couple of other things, but I digress...

A 1st generation Core (Arrandale) machines are still perfectly capable of performing tasks that 90%+ of users expect in my experience, in most industries. So unless you offer *stunning* hardware improvements (and Haswell can't be regarded as something of that nature no matter where one went to school) coupled with a "must have" OS (what W8 most certainly isn't for a significant percent of users), the laptop/desktop market will be but a yawn.

My $0.02 only...

 

Pretty much what everyone said. Haskell brings nice improvements in power consumption, but it will be for naught if the OEMs go for smaller design with smaller batteries instead. The only ones upgrading will be the hardware junkies and the ones for whom every bit of performance you can get matters.

From my experience, everything Penryn and up runs any version of Windows just fine as well as most commonly used software. The days of software pushing hardware needs for most people are over. Windows 8 is definitely not a resounding commercial success, but I doubt it's the main reason for declining PC sales.

 

Amen. Quoted for truth, plain and simple.

 

My wife is currently using a 2008 Core 2 Duo machine because "it still works just fine." I've asked her what she wants if it were to break, and she has expressed interest in a tablet with a keyboard instead of another full-on PC. I think this is pretty common nowadays among casual users.

I don't think Windows 8 is to blame because there's still Windows 7 laptops and desktops on the market. If you don't like Windows 8, but choose to not buy any PC instead of a Windows 7 PC, then Windows 8 is not the reason you're not buying a PC.

 

I'll even go as far as Core 2 Duo Merom Windows laptops with 4 GB RAM and Sata 2 SSDs are enough to get through most majors in college. Core 2 Duo Merom can do the job for quick video editing 15 - 30 minute projects. Their intel x3100 have hardware decoding for 1080p H.264 videos so that's another reason no need to get the latest laptop. As long as those laptops are well maintained, people don't really need a new laptop.

 

I love Windows 8 on Dell Latitude 10. It is the big hit in my organization. People drop iPad for this baby. I can't deploy the OS fast enough. It runs great on Atom. Intel Bay Trail will be the next best thing for the OS. Haswell doesn't excite me as much as Bay Trail.

 

Been tooting this horn forever. New hardware isn't needed since Vista, Windows 7 to 8.1 will run fine. The accepted amount of ram though has increased a bit but this is just normal as even Vista runs better on 4GB.

The problem is the software side as well. Other than games there is nothing out there that is too demanding. With all the video encryption there was a brief hope of CPU intensive tasks for home systems but hardware acceleration quashed that idea.

 

With 8-10 hour battery life from an ultraportable convertible like the Vaio Duo 13, Haswell excites the heck out of me.

 

I bought an Win8 i5 notebook/tablet convertible see sig, I prefer android in small devices, but anything 10" and above i prefer windows, and Win8 is OK if you have a touchscreen.

John.

 

If it plays 720p youtube, then it has enough power for normal users who otherwise update facebook statuses and read news.

 

It's called WiDi... check it out.

But yeah, I have two older 12 inch notebooks with Intel SU4100 CPU's (dual core Penryn / Core 2 ULV) with HDMI port that I use as my HTPC for my kids room and our main room. Works fine for web browsing and playing movies.

If I didn't play games on occasion I could get by with a thin and light as my primary laptop for the next 3-5 years no issues. I just don't want tabs to "replace" laptops because they really aren't the same. I think eventually they'll mostly go hybrid with removable screens.

 

CPU performance is "good enough" for most people now, and with Haswell & Broadwell even graphics performance is/will be good enough for most people who either don't care about the latest games or graphics tools or don't mind playing at lower settings. Since performance is increasing at a slower pace (partially due to the increasing complexity of successive die shrinks), I think the next "must have" feature is going to be extreme battery life. Haswell is already moving in this direction, and I hope/expect to see systems continue to creep up in battery life towards 24 hours. Five years from now, I hope to see a number of systems that can handle 20 hours of combined web surfing, video, and productivity use. If I can get a system with the same or better performance as my current system but with double or triple the battery life, that's something that would convince me to upgrade.

 

And I doubt the battery makers will let that fly...we talk about computer battery extended use but least one forgets those company will be in their best interested not to let it last that long or have a long lifespan. We always forget to think of the small parts.

 

Aha, that was a good choice too. Unfortunately, it doesn't really build for corporate environment. It would be fine for home user plus the price of fully loaded Latitude 10 is equal to basic configuration on Vaio Duo. I think Intel begins to realize the SoC chip is the future for mobility computing. Atom isn't an after thought as it used to be. ARM processors are making killing money, so old giant tech company like Intel and MS are adapting to new territory now. Time to scoop up Intel and MS stock before it is going up again.

 

My opinion exactly with the level of hardware performance other then core gaming most apps work fine. I even have a Dell 1525 and Vostro 1400 both upgraded to T8100 with 4gig ram with Windows7x64 Ult Sp1 and they both work fine only when I open many aka many apps does it bog down but wifi and yutube they work just both fine. For gaming that is the sole territory of my Desktop and Gaming laptop. The advances as hight touted as they are for everyday usage doesn't add up to a whole lot of nothing when you just yutub twitter facebook email and browse the web. That what happens a majority of the laptops including desktop. All that money spent and all you did was something a older model did the same with. And I think user have come to realization what they did before was they same they are doing now.....and get same result in return...

 

Why would that not be in the battery makers' best interest? They would be selling more battery cells and would be able to make more money correspondingly. There has not been any indication that I've seen of battery manufacturers colluding in a similar way as the oil or diamond industries. The companies that make the best batteries get more business. If your comment was in response to anticipated reductions in demand, keep in mind that batteries still wear out and need to be replaced periodically. Also, battery manufacturers use their cells for more than just notebook computers. They also make batteries for cellular phones, tablets, and electric and hybrid vehicles, all of which are growing markets. I do not see how dramatically increasing battery life in notebooks would be a negative for anyone.

 

Have that on my Sammy; only problem is, I have never seen a WiDi capable projector anywhere. I know they exist, but fact is they're not common at all, meaning when I go to any kind of meeting, I have to assume it doesn't exist.

 

It's called supply and demand if they keep production low they can ask for higher battery prices for endusers. That is the business model if you make too many they are too cheap and they will loose market shares. This is business 101 if you want to keep the business you need to know the cut off to keep demand there so you keep making profits. Batteries always get replaced you missed what I was trying to convey across the business model side. It's not always the best batteries since a few industries makes for the majority of the suppliers so how you could say the best battery makers is kinda doubtful. How one uses and charges and what environment will also affect the battery more or equal to the battery materials as well. So just cause a battery is supposedly better in control environment doesn't account for real world usage that has extremes and lows.

 

a friend in IT brought an atom tablet to lunch one day and I was surprised by the true multitasking load it could juggle. Alas, he still carries iPad daily driver though his entire shop is Microsoft, end to end. Illustrates the problem.

 

What you are describing regarding artificial price inflation (or maintenance) based on supply regulation does not appear to be occurring in the battery industry, or at least not that I have seen or heard. This is why I noted that it is a different situation than the oil or diamond industries, in which such practices do occur. Now, a case could be made that supply of the materials required to produce batteries may be artificially controlled, thanks to China's current stranglehold on rare earth materials. But I do not see any collusion of that sort from the actual battery manufacturers.

 

Who cares if there's no apps anyone wants? People always forget, with those tablets, the hardware and the OS is secondary, at best. It's all about the apps. And don't even start telling me how many apps there are in the Microsoft Store, that's completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that a very significant number of must-have apps don't exist, and that's the end of it. Result: Just about nobody, with the exception of a tiny, tiny niche market, has any interest or use for Windows 8 RT tablets. Those things are as dead as dead can be. As far as (full) Windows 8 tablets are concerned, it's not clear how large the market for those things is. Certainly Microsoft's Surface is a god-awful design physically, in a whole number of ways. Other than that, I am not convinced people using a tablet really want or need the power and flexibility of a full-fledged OS, and back we are at iPad and Android tablets.

 

I'd have to disagree with you on that Prix... I played around with a Surface RT and I had no issue with the physical design, nor the design of the OS (being that Windows 8 and RT are really just tablet/smartphone OSes). What sort of apps are you missing that you can't live without on RT? All I saw that was missing was an official Facebook app, but considering that it can be opened in a browser, who cares? My only gripe with it is that you're forced to use IE10, though it's not something that I'd be bothered with, though it would be nice to have Chrome or Firefox installable. The only significant problem I see is that the keyboard covers are priced pretty high, and I'd wait for them to reduce in price or to buy an alternative Bluetooth or USB keyboard.

Personally, the best thing about these tablets (Surface RT, Asus VivoTab RT, and Dell XPS 10 or whatever it's called) is that they work pretty well for work-related stuff. Having a full Office suite (that you dont have to pay a subscription for like Office 365) and full USB support (or mini-USB with regular USB ability) allowing a user to use most USB devices like HDDs and other storage, printers, etc, are major positives in my book.

Right now, RT is suffering the same problems as early Android devices. Back a few years ago, Android had a disappointing number of apps and the same argument was made about "why buy it when so many apps are missing??", and after a few years, look at Android tablets now. Not only are there a massive amount of apps in Google Play, but now the devices are generally much cheaper than they used to be (i laughed pretty hard at the Moto XOOM's high price when it came out), which is another issue that Microsoft needs to overcome (knocking the base price of the Surface RT to $350 is a start, though Dell and Asus already got the hint and they're now at $300).

Now, I'm only talking about RT devices here; Windows 8 (full OS) tablets are on a whole different level due to their functionality (they have practically *all* the x86 apps ever made at their disposal), though Microsoft fumbled with the Surface Pro and the measily four hours of battery life it provides (thanks to a power-hungry i5).

 

Exactly. All the "there aren't enough apps" arguments were leveled at Android two years ago, and look where Android is now. And Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and Outlook included with the device is a big selling point. There are plenty of Android and iOS options that are great for creating documents on your own, but none of these third-party options are as good as MS Office for sharing documents back and forth with desktop machines that all use MS Office.

As for x86 convertible tablets, Haswell has fixed the battery life issue. The new Vaio Duo 13 (which weighs less than three pounds despite a 13" screen and a slider keyboard) gets 8-10 hour battery life in real-world use. And while the Surface Pro may not have won everyone over (I was never sold on the keyboard solution or the 10.6" screen), there are so many well-designed OEM convertibles that it doesn't really matter if you don't like Microsoft's own hardware solution. Vaio Duo 11 and 13 and Samsung Ativ Q if you like sliders, Thinkpad Helix and Ativ Smart PC Pro if you like hybrids, etc.

 

I mean, if I want to be nit-picky, I'd say that the 16:9 format of RT devices makes it a little difficult to use in portrait mode. Though, at least with the Surface RT, weight distribution in either mode made the device comfortable to use two-handed. One-handed was a little harder to pull off, but I also have the same problem with the 10" iPad and other 10" tablets anyway.

 

My long lost friend Prix. It has been a long time since I talk to you. Dell Latitude 10 with Atom processor runs Windows 8 32bit. App doesn't really important as much as tablet like IOS and Android. As I said earlier, Atom will be Intel next best thing for mobile market, and Windows 8 will benefit from that SoC chip. Why run IOS or Android if I can run full OS with tablet that can do multitask with long battery life.

I can't comment on Windows RT. I still prefer full OS functionality in tablet form factor.

I know, Latitude 10 also comes with WWAN card. To me, iPad and Android are just a toy compare tablet with MS full OS because I can do a whole lot more with more connectivity options.

 

I have no issue with RT, especially with 8.1 coming out it should even improve. The problem with Win8 is, as always, non touch optimizations. If they would have left a non-touch, win 7 like, option for those that need it we would have a whole other story today. Even for the Surface pro, while in tablet mode, Win 8.1 would be mostly a winner.

The problem falls to whether users now want to fork out for a RT and, like Android, now wait for 2 years for a ton of apps like FireFox etc.. Again not familiar with RT, is another browser possible or is IE 10 embedded to the other apps etc.?

Connectivity options, Hmmmm, can you beam photo's or videos or other files from your phone to your tablet?

 

In RT, you use IE or you go home (same for WP). Currently, Microsoft isn't letting other browsers on that OS as far as I know, and when I was playing around with one in a local BestBuy, I didn't see other browsers in the Martketplace. It would be nice if they allowed Windows Phone apps to be installed on RT devices, since they're essentially the same OS. Anyway, ZDNet has a decent article on one of the reasons why RT is failing: http://www.zdnet.com/how-windows-rt-could-still-succeed-in-the-long-term-7000019221/ (tl;dr: RT's competition is cheap Windows 8 (full) tablets)

And for "beaming" files from a phone to tablet, there's always Dropbox/SkyDrive/etc

 

I prefer to stay away from cloud but the same could be done on Android. I am not saying there are always other options or methods only that Android has even a few of it's own. Nice thing about beaming though (other than Samsung S Beam on the SIII) is it is not Wi-Fi, let alone WAN or 3/4g connection, dependent.

The RT could have made an awesome thin and light portable device but it has two primary issues I can see;

1.) Is perception of the OS in total. This is available apps to being orphaned from the old EXE's to the failure of adoption to the desktop market in the full Windows 8 version.

2.) Device formats and pricing. There are so many Android devices available right down to 4/5" tablets or even phone equivalents. RT essentially is only offering the 10" 1366x768 variety. In fact on some of the lower res screens, such as on phones, RT can become unusable and then instead of just a slight variant like with Android you go to Windows phone 7/8. I am not fully familiar with IOS but its approach seems similar to Android here.

Hate to beat a dead horse but I would have went with the trifecta, Windows Phone 8, Windows RT and Windows 8 pro. The reason I couldn't is because of the desktop UI for me. Once one of the links were broken for me here the entire chain is no longer a valid option. I have no issue with those that can deal with desktop UI or want to help others cope. My other issue too though is trusting M$, it just may never happen again but I do hope the long term affects of this are not as far reaching as some (the gloomer's and doomer's) have predicted..........

 

Totally agree with the perception problem with RT, and it should have been named something different than "Windows" since the tech illiterate masses now think "Oh, it should run my old .exe programs!" I guess it wasn't as much of a problem with Windows Phone since nobody in their right mind should expect that to run x86 Windows programs, though a tablet with a similar-looking OS to 8 could be confusing.

Apple isn't much better with their data mining, Google is almost completely a data-mining company and Android isn't cutting them out of that personal info, and Microsoft (like most tech companies, Google and Apple included) are in be with the NSA and other law enforcement. There's really no safe tablet as far as I know, especially with the Nexus switching to Qualcomm (and thus killing the chances of a vanilla Android install), and Microsoft locking down the boot loader in RT devices. In the past, it was pretty easy to root Apple's devices and install your own OS, though I'm not current on if that's still possible.

 

agree with emphasis.
the main reason i use/carry an ipad mini, and prefer the Note as my "phone" is battery life. 3 day battery life on the ipad changes the way I use. if I could just drop it on my desk and have it wirelessly dock to kbd & big display, plus wireless charge, I would not own a notebook. i would own a combo htpc/server/mule and if it happened to be in a notebook form - fine. not necessary, but I could make it work.

as little as one year ago, I could live ok with 5.5 hour batt life on my thinkpad. now I find it utterly inexcusable. its "portable", just barely. like from the desk to my recliner, but it doesn't 'go out' anymore.

Microsoft Doesn’t Want To Admit Windows RT Is Dead | TechCrunch

i can't imagine a reponsible IT boss recommending RT. it would be the proverbial "hanging offense"

 

Put Android on the lot of them and be done with it Microsoft, or free RT tablet with an Xbox One

John.

 

"Windows RT is all but dead in the water", exactly what I have been saying all along. Of course, it really was a stillborn child, and never alive to begin with. And, yeah, with a couple million of those things rotting in various warehouses, they should just send them to some third-world countries. They could do some good in schools and such there.

 

the recent news about ASUS and other oem's ditching rt rings to me like acquaintances giving hints to a substance abuser that his support is gone.
meanwhile the very ill Microsoft puts up a conference slide showing new rt devices in the pipeline and the implication of a rt refresh a'coming.
all this at a time when the corp focus should be on salvaging windows 8.whatever.... http://www.techradar.com/news/mobil...ng-surface-rt-and-surface-pro-refresh-1165006


its a company that is out of touch throughout the upper management ranks. tone deaf, punch drunk.

 

You know that they're making sweeping changes with Windows 8.1 which should be introduced any time now? A company the size of Microsoft can do more than one thing at a time.

 

Sweeping changes? Try minor updates that don't address what most people have been asking for?

 

What is it? Start menu? I am waiting for OS to support wireless display natively.

 

Heheh, "sweeping changes"? That was funny. Hilarious, even.

 

I love how people complain and complain about the live tile interface, yet when 8.1 introduces the option to make start launch a configurable all-programs screen instead of the live tile interface, so you never see the live tile interface ever again, people deny it's a sweeping change in the UI.

 

The problem is that it is not a sweeping change to the UI, now making where it never appears along with the all apps or anything else of the "Modern UI" would be a sweeping change. I am not saying that the old menu button need be there just not something to again bring you back to modern UI. I am not familiar enough with the right click but some are saying that is pretty powerful from the desktop so maybe expand from that?

 

it strikes me that the common ground for the mac side of apple, the Chrome side of Google, and the "pc" side of MS is the pointer. Pointing devices do make sense, especially touchpads/trackpads. the pointer plus keyboard make such devices far faster to use for anything involving more than a neanderthal-level response.

this news: The guy in charge of Chrome now also runs Android. Now what? | Ars Technica
had me expecting to see rapidly an integration of chrome[book] os develoment with android but so far mum is the word [someone enlighten me].
the trick is: how to "throw down" my handheld and turn on my big screen [wireless video display wingnut?] and grab my kbd/trackpad device. so I don't have to resort to another device for "real work". Playing product manager: its not an "answer" to say "all the customer has to do is touch the screen" - that's a physically cumbersome move for someone that wants to knock out a couple of paragraphs in a matter of seconds. way too cumbersome for someone who writes for a reason: i.e. a job, and must carefully edit everything.

 

But don't forget that the Chromebook Pixel, Google's flagship for Chrome OS, also has a touchscreen. And Apple has filed a patent for a MacBook with a detachable touchscreen. Microsoft isn't the only one including touch as one possible control method for their x86 OS. Call it fit for neanderthals, but the entire market is moving toward including that as one way of interacting with your PC.

"The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse'. There is no evidence that people want to use these things." -- John Dvorak, 19 Feb 1984.

 

The difference is that companies (including Microsoft, in particular) have been trying to sell PCs/Laptops with touchscreens for a decade or more. Result: Except for a couple of small niches, nobody wants them.

 

The question also could go to how many things are patented that either never make it to market or fail? You can not point to patents, no matter the commonality, as a road to success.......

 

There's nothing wrong with having a touch screen at all. But to force it as the primary input is the issue. There are some benefits to Win 8 like a good integration with UEFI and fast boot times and it does seem to run a bit faster in general than Win 7. But just because a car has a fast 0-60 time isn't the only reason to buy it, especially if it has a bumpy ride the rest of the time.

Even with the "sweeping" UI changes, it's still a segmented OS. Win RT tablets are not popular. Windows 7 is very popular. Why they would opt for the less poopular UI than the more poopular is beyond me. If it still takes you to an alternate screen and hides your desktop to manage your programs, it's still the same problem. Pig in lipstick...

 

There is nothing "Sweeping" about the changes other than it is a sweeping change from Windows 7;
sweeping - definition of sweeping by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.