Partitions, Partitions, Partitions...

Ok, I REALLY dont get the whole purpose for partitions. I am dealing with reloading/formating my Dell laptop and discovered it has one extra partition with some diagnostics software that I can delete or not. Also, talking to people here discovering people make their own partitions. I know WHAT a partition is, but I dont know WHY.

Why does Dell put this Diagnostics software on here on a separate partition when you can get that software on the net or on the CDs they sent too?

Why do people create their own partitions? I just dont see the point. also, how do you SEE these partitions. I can only see this Dell one when I use Ghost. Not when I look at "my computer". So if I made partitions, how would I see them - not that Im gonna, but.....

Whats the purpose of separating media files to a separate partition just incase your windows partition gets screwed up cause dont you need the windows partition to SEE the other partition (Im not talking about the Dell Media Direct thing - just people doing it themselves.

And if a drive goes bad, doesnt the WHOLE drive go bad?

Anyone that can answer ANY of these questions, well hey, youre the best man!

thanks in advance
dave

 

I create partitions so that I can store programs in one distinct place, and my documents in another distinct place, this way I know that I just need to copy everything off D drive (my documents drive) and I have all the personal stuff, all the things on the C drive (windows etc) I have disks for.

If the Drive goes bad, in general yes, the entire drive goes bad.

You can see all partitions in under the Computer management console, some might not be accessible, Dell's extra partition might be a bootable "recover" partition (Acer does that quite a lot) depending on your computer knowledge depends on if you care to keep it or not.

As a standard, if you make partitions and format them to NTFS or FAT32 you would be able to see them in Windows, however there are a number of formats that windows cannot read (such as Linux formats, and some other odd formats).

 

The thing on my Dell is this http://www.goodells.net/dellutility/
Its apparently in Fat32 but I cant see it unless I use Ghost to backup. I dont know what the "computer management console" is you mention. I have learned from this link and from the girl here that made the big Dell reload/reformat guide that I do NOT need to recreate it. I booted to it and its just a series of tests that is apparently avail from the Dell website.

So my further questions to your reply are.

1. what is different about you making a partition and just making a parent folder to keep all that stuff in?

2. Why would dell bother with this separate partition for the tests in their "utility/diagnostics partition.

thanks again, just trying to learn what I dont understand here. not judging your way of doing things BTW.

d

 

Well, I use XP and Vista, so each of those gets its own partition. Also, I have a separate partiition for my data that is readily available to both. If I need to reinstall an OS (which I do periodically) then I can fairly easily reformat that partition and reinstall Windows without having to backup all my data, which is safely separated on another partition. I suppose it's also a kind of OCD organization thing, but it works for me. You are correct, though, that if your hard drive goes bad then you're probably going to have problems with all your data regardless of partition... but to each his own.


Edit: I just saw you posted some new questions while I was writing a resonse:

1.) Not much really. It's mainly an organizational approach that some poeple prefer. That said, it does define certain segments of your physical hard drive to specific partitions, so files tend to get somewhat less fragmented.

2.) Most manufacturers do that. If they included CDs/DVDs with the same software, or give you the ability to create CDs/DVDs with the same software you can safely delete the partition if you want. They like to have it on the hard drive, however, so if you're say on a vacation/business trip and don't have the discs with you, you can still access that software should something massively screw up your system. It's up to you to determine if the extra space is worth more than the convenience of having the diagnostic tools always avqailable to you. Also, these partitions are usually hidden partitions... when you create a partition on your own, you generally make it visible so any OS can see it as its own drive.

 

Having them for the different OS's totally makes sense to me. And wanting to see personal files in each makes sense. Other than that though, it seems trivial the benefit. Im curious about the "computer management console" thing Arla mentioned. What is that?

Also curious that if I reformat and reload my drive, does that automatically blow the stupid little Dell diag partition or can I just leave it alone and reformat and reload the main part of the drive and it will be fine?

 

Computer Management Console is a pluggin to the management console (services console etc) it just allows you to do disk management and such, it's available from the Control Panel under Administration tasks.

Depending on how you do a reformat/reload will depend on whether you blow away the Dell partition or not. You should totally be able to reformat just the main drive and reload that without touching the dell partition and be fine.

 

I'd like to have a My Documents folder on an E:\ partition, containing ALL my personal files/folders apart from the Windows, Drivers, and Program Files folder.

The only problem is choosing the size for the C:\ partition. Say I want to install a 5GB game, but I sized the partition to have only 3GB to spare? Then I'm screwed. Since I muck around with new OSs and hose XP quite often, I'd like a way to secure my personal files besides backing them up. Can anyone recommend an effective method to do this?

 

thank you all for the help. I found the computer management console. Realised thats the same thing I used to format my external drives.


thank you thank you thank you. Just when I thought I knew quite a bit about my laptop (used to reformat and reload my old Win 98 laptop a lot). This site is an incredible resource in this day and age when the companies that make all this complex stuff are impossible to reach for free at a moments notice, or impossible to understand (language barrier) or just take forever to deal with your real problem. Everyone here is very kind to just offer advice for free like this. Who cares how good Dell customer service is or isnt when we have all you people (ok well you know what Im saying).

thanks

 

In a word, no.

For partition sizes, I go with taking what windows is currently using (with all normal programs that I use installed) and then double the space. Depends how much you install programs and leave them there even if you aren't using them.

As for personal files, you can put them on a partition, and as long as you don't hose the FAT (I assume NTFS still has a FAT? not sure on that one) but as long as you don't hose the file allocations you should be okay, but I would seriously recommend making sure you backup as a real solution.

 

Well, if you think about it, you pretty much gave the answer yourself.
Dell uses a separate partition to store diagnostics software, apart from your own primary partition. That means you can format the partition you use as much as you like, and you still have an intact diagnostics partition. That's basically the purpose. Separating data and structuring your harddrive.

Of course, Dell's setup is a very simple example. So let me tell you my setup instead.
I have two harddrives. But I need, well, lots.
I need two Windows installations, and one Linux. All of these have to be kept separate to work. That means at least three partitions are required. I also have a lot of data I want to store, and I don't want to have to manually move it around when I have to format the partition containing a specific OS. (I usually reinstall Windows once a year or so. And moving 300GB of data just to be able to do this without losing anything important is just no fun)
And obviously, I'd like the three operating systems to have somewhere in common to share data, so I don't have to look on the three OS partitions every time I need to find something. All of this means I need a separate partition for data that isn't tied to a specific OS (all my personal stuff, everything I want to save when reinstalling an OS).
And finally, because it's hard to predict how much space each OS needs, I'd waste a lot of space if I had to give each OS so much they'd never run out. Instead, I keep the core OS on its own partition, but all installed programs go on a separate (shared) partition. That is, all Windows partitions put data (including the Documents & Settings folder) on a common Data partition, and they put all installed programs and games on a common Programs partition.
Then I don't have to worry about inefficient use of disk space (allocating 40GB to a Windows partition that only uses 18, while another OS uses all 40, and needs more)

Linux is a bit different, among other things because the idea of multiple partitions is much more integrated there. On Linux, you use a swap *partition* instead of a page*file* like Windows does. It also prefers to have a separate partition to store the bootloader on (I use my Programs partition to store boot loader for my Windows OS'es separate from their own partitions, so I don't have to reconfigure that if I reinstall an OS)

If your PC is dead, you can't download anything from the net. CD's can get lost or scratched, and cost extra for Dell. This way, they're able to store the bundled software safely on your harddrive, where you won't lose it (at least not by accident. You can obviously remove the partition if you want), and they save the cost of packaging a separate CD.

Usually, they're visible in Explorer, and look just like separate harddrives. They *can* be made hidden, like Dell does, but that's usually only when you want to keep them away from prying fingers (say, if you have some diagnostics/reinstall software you'd prefer the customer to not delete)

Yep, usually. If that's your concern, you need to buy entirely separate disks.
Partitions can only help you organize your files.

Hope that explained it a bit.

 

C:\ is your Windows partition, right? I usually assume Windows to use 10GB or so in itself. (Currently I've given my Windows partition 20GB, because I ran out of space last time, and some apps want to unpack temp data to your Windows partition and/or your C: partition (so always make sure to have a few GB to spare on those)
Program files is harder to tell. Personally I'd recommend putting that on E:\ as well (so everything that uses an unknown amount of space is stored there, meaning you can more accurately guess how much space you need to put on C:\, and just give everything else to E:\)

I've found NTFS junction points to be a huge help in this. They're basically watered down symbolic links like Linux has had for ages.

I've got the following partitions:
C: Boot partition + programs
D: Main Windows partition
E: Spare Windows partition (for testing, and to install anything I dont want polluting my "regular" OS, and for redundancy as well (if I for some reason can't boot into my regular OS, I have this as a fallback)
F: Data partition
That means my Windows (D:\) partition looks like this:
\Windows (regular folder, since Windows would get upset otherwise)
\Documents & Settings (Windows' default location for the folder) - Is only a junction point, meaning anything that goes here will actually be stored on F:\Win32\Documents & Settings
\Program Files - junction point pointing to C:\Win32\Program Files, meaning every time I install a program, I can just pick the standard location, and it will be physically stored on C:, but still be accessible from D:\Program files, as Windows expects.
\Games - junction point pointing to C:\Win32\Games, see above.

The nice thing about this setup is that Windows believes both Docs & Settings, and Program Files, to be in their default locations, meaning stupid programs that hardcode these paths will work as expected. And I can easily change what they point to, just by editing the junction point. And of course, all my data (including the configuration data, logs and whatever else is often stored in Program Files, resides on a separate partition). So I can basically format d:\ without needing to take backups of *anything*. If I forget to back up a savegame? Doesn't matter, both my Games folder and Program Files are safe on another partition. If I need the chat logs from Trillian? Again, Program Files is physically located on a separate partition.

The only problem with this is that it's a bit tricky to set up. Obviously, Windows doesn't like you deleting Program Files, which is necessary to set up the junction point. You might be able to get away with it if you shut down unneeded processes. Alternatively, I just boot into a separate OS and set up the junction points from there. (Another reason I have two Windows OS'es). Worth noting though, that if you set them up from a separate OS, the drive letters have to be identical. (A junction point pointing to C:\Whatever will point to the "Whatever" folder on whichever partition is currently known as C:\. So booting into another OS which has assigned different drive letters may invalidate your junction points.

Still, I think the advantages really outweigh the initial effort required.

You can download linkd.exe from Microsoft for free and use that to create or edit junction points from the command line. Otherwise, NTFSTool is a very nice free program that lets you do the same from Explorer, and also overlays small icons on folders to show which ones are junction points.

 

Jalf,

I very much appreciate your detailed answer. Makes sense to me now, esp how you are doing things.
And youre right, I did answer my own question without realizing it
I have 4 separate external drives for backing up, my music collection, tivo vid files, etc.

I was originally under the impression if I reformatted the drive, I would wipe any partitions on there from Dell and so my first worry was how to recreate them and if thats necessary. I learned though that apparently I can do this and just leave the Dell diag partition alone - which is perfect. But then I just started wondering why about it all. Everyones answers have helped a lot.

 

That looks like a very accomodating setup for doing whatever you do - experimenting, keeping data safe, etc. Unfortunately my DVD recovery disc includes XP Home packaged with the exact drivers needed for my devices. So when I install, I have the following folders:
- Documents and Settings
- Windows
- Program Files
- Drivers
- Support
- ValueAdd (appears to contain banners, some fonts)

Is there some way to move Documents and Settings to a second partition? Could I move Program Files into the second partition as well and expect programs to work should Windows be reinstalled in the first partition?

Putting just my personal files in a second paritition doesn't seem worth it in my case just because they're about 10GB in size and I have them backed up very well. Programs, on the other hand, are about 15-20GB and take me far longer to restore after a reformat. The problem is that Windows preinstalls programs in Program Files and I don't want TWO places for program files should I create a 2nd partition and begin installing programs there. Is there a way around this dilemma?

"If your PC is dead, you can't download anything from the net. CD's can get lost or scratched, and cost extra for Dell. This way, they're able to store the bundled software safely on your harddrive, where you won't lose it (at least not by accident. You can obviously remove the partition if you want), and they save the cost of packaging a separate CD."

So, they're basically using your hardware to save themselves money. How ironic.

 

Yep, as I said, you can do both with NTFS junction points. (Although maybe I skipped a bit too quickly over the explanation of what they are, and how you set it up?)

Basically, when you create a junction point, it looks and acts *exactly* as a real folder... With the one difference that anything inside it are actually contained in another folder physically.

So once you've installed Windows, it will have created C:\Program Files and C:\Documents and Settings as regular folders that take up space on C:.

If we can then replace these folders with junction points pointing to, say, E:\Program Files and E:\Documents and Settings, Windows won't even be aware of the change. In Explorer you can open C:\Program Files and see all your program files contents as usual. When a new program is installed into that path, that too works flawlessly.

Except everything is physically stored on E:, and so takes up no space on C:
So yeah, everything will work just fine, because Windows can keep using the same old paths it assumed when you installed it.

But yeah, when you install Windows, it obviously creates the folders itself on its own partition. I haven't found a simple way around this, so you have to manually move them and replace them with junction points.

I first copy Program Files to where I want it to be stored (say, E:\Program Files), and then delete the original Program Files, and replace it with a junction point. (That can be done if you're careful and nothing from Program Files is running)

Documents & Settings is a bit trickier to do from within the OS, since it's in use by Windows, so I usually boot into another OS and move it and create the junction point from there.

But once it's set up, you get everything you asked for. Windows and your programs can access the original paths and everything will work perfectly, but you won't risk running out of space on C:, and you won't need to back up anything from that partition either. Everything is physically stored on E: (or wherever)

 

"If we can then replace these folders with junction points pointing to, say, E:\Program Files and E:\Documents and Settings, Windows won't even be aware of the change. In Explorer you can open C:\Program Files and see all your program files contents as usual. When a new program is installed into that path, that too works flawlessly."

That is nothing short of amazing. I never knew that. So I guess I'll have to figure out a way to move that Program Files folder... junctions are pretty much shortcuts that the system follows, then? Does that hinder performance at all?

You suggested the programs linkd.exe or NTFSTool; which is better for a beginner? Also, it sounds like you're suggesting that junction points must be created from an "external" OS other than the Windows installation being modified; it that true?

PS; I found this junction utility, does it look good? http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sysinternals/FileAndDisk/Junction.mspx

 

NTFSTool is by far the easier to use (it's integrated into explorer, so if you right click and drag a file, it'll give you the usual "copy/move/create shortcut" menu, but now with the added option "create junction point".

Or you can just right click where you want your junction point, and you can create it under 'new' in the context menu. Very nice, and I'd suggest you install it in any case (because even after you've got them set up, it still helps by showing which folders are "real" and which are junction points, and by changing the behavior of Explorer, so if you delete a junction point, it only deletes that, not the folder it points to (which Windows would do by default)

linkd.exe is a command line tool. So you have to use it from the "DOS" window, and type in the paths and everything yourself. (I think that's available as part of the Win2k3 resource kit or something, if you can't find a standalone download)

No clue about the one you found, but it looks like another version of linkd basically, and should work just as well. (And SysInternals aren't usually messing around when they write software. I'd assume it works very well)

Not sure about performance. I'd assume it to be *slightly* slower (because the system probably needs two disk accesses instead of one. First it has to read the junction point to find out where it points to, and then it has to read the location it points to.
But I haven't noticed a difference at all. Disk accesses are slow no matter what you do, so this really isn't noticeable.

Technically it's not required. What is needed is just that you can move or rename the folder.
Obviously you can't create a junction point at C:\Program Files if that folder already exists. So you have to get rid of it temporarily. And the same goes for Documents & Settings. Before you can create the junction point, you have to move the original folder out of the way.

I just usually do this from a separate OS, because then I can be sure none of the files are in use. But you can probably get away with doing it from inside your own OS, if you're careful. Or maybe just booting into something like BartPE or another CD image you can run Windows from without installing.
But if you do it from a separate OS, remember that it's important that the drive letters match. If your main OS knows your data partition as E:, then the junction point has to be made to point to E:, even if that letter refers to, say, a CD-ROM drive under another OS.

 

This is going off from the whole junction points discussion, but I have a more simple question. I'm getting an Asus G1 this week, and I'd like to make one partition with the winXP os, and have the other partition just be all the rest of my files. This is my question:

1) I've heard that having the OS and all your files on separate drives makes the system run smoother/faster. Is this true for partitions or is it just an organizational thing? If it's just for organization I might not bother..

2) Do I have to reformat and fresh install to do these partitions?

3) How do I make the partitions? What program do I use?

thanks for the help, you guys. these forums are great.

 

There might be a marginal difference in performance, but honestly, I doubt it. The main reason is definitely organization (and for making backups easier)

When installing Windows, you can create partitions.
Alternatively, third-party apps (I always use Partition Magic, but there are free alternatives too), can create, resize and move partitions on the fly, without you losing data.

Hope that helped...