Win10x64Pro upgrade from Win8.1 thoughts and musings...

I have updated almost a dozen systems since Win10 became available and just want to share my initial thoughts and see what others think of the new O/S too.

Most of the systems were varied, but I did do a comparison between an i3-3217U and an i5-3427U that were otherwise identical previous to the upgrade:

• Windows 8.1x64Pro with all updates installed
• 16GB DDR3 RAM
• Crucial M.4 256GB SSD OP'd by 33%
• Office 2013 and other various office productivity software
• Both are NUCs left on 24/7

The upgrade for the i5 took 25 minutes to complete and the i3 took 39 minutes.

While both are noticeably snappier, the i5 has benefitted the most. The storage subsystem under the hood improvements are dramatic (for me) - some processes finish almost an hour faster.

The biggest benefit so far of the faster storage is the decreased latency for things like the built in Disk Cleanup - Cleanup System Files, which let you remove the old windows backup along with more crud. On average of all the systems I've upgraded to Win10, there have been about 20GB removed vs. Win8.1x64Pro.

On Windows 8.1, running the cleanup system file tool had taken between 45 minutes to an hour and a half on these systems, and running it immediately afterwards once again still took almost 30 minutes (to both analyze and actually do the cleanup).

With Windows 10, running the cleanup system file tool took less than 5 minutes, including analyzing and removing around 16GB on the NUC's. A second run of the cleanup tool took less than a minute. These are huge productivity increases from a simple O/S change.

The biggest surprise was seeing a base Windows install less than 8GB after running the cleanup - but that was on Win8x86 Home on an Asus T100TA.

The biggest issues I have encountered is that PerfectDisk 13 is not compatible with Win10. No big deal; PD14 is out already.

The usability improvements under the hood are apparent from the first minute just browsing the O/S and makes recommending to stick with Win8.1x64Pro on production systems for a while longer very, very hard.

I also want to point out that this is just a quick test on my many systems: I do not recommend doing an upgrade on any production machine you depend on - a clean install is always the way to go.

But what these quick tests do show is that Win10 is ready for prime time, even if certain features that were expected are missing in this first round. More responsive, just as stable and even more usable than Win8.1 - this is how an O/S should be.

The times to install the upgrade on these last two systems was very close to the differences (especially the single thread performance) between their passmark 'scores' - about 56% vs. 54%-58% estimated.

See:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare.php?cmp[]=764&cmp[]=819


Which shows me again that passmark is quite good at predicting what to expect on new platforms based on the score received in passmark. Too bad we don't have such a 'score' to judge real world performance of SSD's...

This huge productivity improvement of the i5's over the i3's (and the i7's over the i5's...) is the major reason why I always recommend to buy as much hardware as you can afford. Even if your use case is 'light' and we are not always installing or upgrading O/S' on a daily basis, it is still the best thing to ensure that the system you buy today stays relevant for as long as possible. And that happens with at least a quad thread with maxed out RAM platform or higher. And the newer the platform, the better too.

If anyone is simply running office type workloads including Office 2013, Adobe Acrobat, accounting software, browsing and viewing youtube (or other) streaming video, Windows 10 x64 Pro is highly recommended, as-is. It is easily the O/S that takes the hardware you currently have and pushes it to give its best. I can see how these under the hood improvements would also be beneficial for gamers loading huge worlds too - whether they are running an SSD or not right now.

My now ancient (four days after Win10 was officially available... ) Win8.1 machines now look from the corner in apathy at my new playthings. Even if I still go to (only) them to get real work done... (for now).

What are others experience with Win10? If they mirror mine on the dozen or so machines I've used them on, we should all be getting the most performance our existing hardware has ever been capable of.

 

I had not even considered hardware improvement yet. TBH, with a SSD this seems to boot slower than W7 but I never considered that a metric worth a squat. It does seem a bit snappier with single, unoptimized, threads. This can be shown with the old SuperPI where it is substantially faster with the small results. This seems to provide for a much snappier OS and for those tasks that deal with allot of files etc. in a short period there should be a huge boost.

 

I did not upgrade yet. Is it possible to create a bootable flash drive for clean Windows 10 Pro install without installing it first, under 8.1 Pro with OEM key in UEFI?

 

Main issue I think is that for the free version you have to upgrade in place.

 

It's possible to clean install should you want to: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/how-to-do-a-clean-install-of-windows-10-from-windows-7-and-8/

 

The disk cleanup is NOT an imrpovement! It's that fact that you were using Windows 8 which has a major bug in the disk cleanup that makes it take ages to complete.

Comparing the Windows 7 cleanup vs Windows 10 cleanup after installing updates and they're the same. So what makes you think this is an improvement is the fact that you were using Windows 8.

Just a few results a pulled quickly off Google:

Windows 8 - Disk Cleanup hangs

Disk Cleanup is so slow after Windows Updates!

Disk Cleanup stall at Windows Update Cleanup?

Windows Update Cleanup Appears to Stall

windows disk cleanup taking forever


In Windows 7, despite it having the most amount of updates, it still finishes in 5% of the time the Disk Cleanup takes for Windows 8/8.1 after performing all the Windows Updates. Until this date this hasn't been fixed, Windows 8 is just one buggy mess now Disk Cleanup works properly in Windows 10 and that's the way it should behave, but it's NOT faster than 8. it's 8's bug that makes 10 look faster.

 

You're right. I forgot to mention that boot does seem slower for me too. But just like you, boot up is not a criteria when all we're talking about are a handful of seconds difference at most.

Not without installing it first and for free.

tijo gave an excellent link - the tip to download the ISO first is what I would do and I would download the 32bit and the 64bit versions too for use in any pc in the future.

Considering that Windows 8.1 is on all of my workstations right now, how fast it was on Win7 is not relevant to me for a long time now, but I get your point.

I don't remember Windows 7 being that fast either though on my setups - but with almost 4 years since I've used it, I can't say I remember 100% either.

What I do know is that as TANWare posted, the snappiness is obvious and permeates the entire O/S. If this is what we can expect with MS doing continuous 'bug fixes' on a single O/S from now on, I'm onboard 100%.

'Shrinking' a partition in Drive Management is many, many times faster too. Without any further evidence to the contrary, this is a direct upgrade to the under the hood handling of the file system and our modern storage components. Anything previous to this pales in comparison as it seems like we were running 3600RPM HDD's from the '90's - even with Win7 and an SSD, ime.

When I still had my VRaptor arrays to play with; XP was the worst for stability, although it was snappy. Vistax64 had the stability and the RAM ability, but was making my hardware crawl, not run, where snappiness was concerned (productivity was still up though). Win7 made a nice step up from Vista in snappiness, but I could still tell I was running a HDD setup - even in RAID0 VRaptor x8 testing. With Win8x64Pro (yeah the previews), the VRaptors were untouchable until I discovered OP'ing in my setups with SSD's. And for many things, the VRaptors were still better, overall... (the solution? Use the SSD as a cache and OP by 50% or more - that was a productivity boost).

Today, Win10 makes the latest hardware I'm used to over the last year or more perform better in my productivity focused workflows. That is an upgrade in my books.

I don't have the option of being nostalgic and going backwards when my competitors move on.

Win8/Win8.1 was still a productivity boost over previous versions, even if some aspects weren't as optimized as possible. All I know is that I don't remember a single BSOD with Win8.1 on my systems. I can't say that about any previous version of any O/S.

 

Well, that's where I have a big difference with you; for me, your above statement is damning with faint praise indeed, given that I find Win8.x near-unusable. So, comparing with what is still the gold standard of productivity, WinX is not an option.

I will add that, as far as we can tell from the raw numbers, all of your performance improvements seem to be fantasies. There are no meaningful improvements in performance in any relevant aspect of the OS that anybody was able to objectively demonstrate.

Many, many, many people would strongly disagree with you here. Which is why Win8.x was never accepted in the professional community. Which is why Win8.x adoption to this day topped out at a measly 16%. Win8.x is, and will remain a sad footnote in the history of Windows operating systems. Unless it gets surpassed by Windows 10, that is.

This means nothing. I have never had a BSOD on XP, Vista, or 7, either. Of course, I never really used Win8.x

 

Real numbers from our man:

 

Not knowing your field of productivity, I would watch on a work station privacy issues. Myself there is no way I would use W10 without some sever lock downs. The problem is even workflow can be considered a trade secret and as it is right now that even is not safe.

As far as drive expansion, I had 2 drives with EXT4 partitions that I deleted them to give W10 full NTFS. I can tell you from doing this several times with W7 the W10 is way faster. I blame this though more one prior broken (not working properly) utilities than W10 being more optimized. Optimized is 10-20% faster not 3-4 times faster. I clicked expand expecting to wait at least a few seconds and it was back in the blink of an eye on the SSD and like 0.5 seconds on the HDD.

I too want this to work out, I really - really do. I like the snappiness and other aspects of the OS. I hated W8.x with a passion as an OS, not the same here. For everything they have improved though it is way more than 2 steps back. In the end I am slightly hopeful (and probably a fool) but we shall see.

An Edit here; While Win 8.x for most would impede workflow I can see where possibly some workflows could be improved. Since a small companies workflow, as I mentioned, can even be a trade secret and individualized every ones experience will be different. I can't fault anyone for that metric and their experience as it is more an opinion than a standard.

Now did most see W8.x as a failure, the market has spoken.

 

Quite an interesting table that you've posted, Matrix Leader. Windows 7 seems to often be the best of the 3 (most frequently) or the worst of the 3, only rarely is it in the middle. Certainly suggests that some items have probably been tweaked for specific workloads.

Some fairly large differences are evident as well - 20 to 40% in some cases is more than I expected.

 

Now this could also explain where a DX12 optimized game with W10 will be much better CPU optimized. If the engine itself uses allot more of those small coded and redundant routines then it may well run much faster. This may not translate to an overall boost to either W8.x or W7. Now this is pure speculation too, but I could see where this would benefit slower CPU's overall.

 

All,

I don't know what world you guys live in, but over here, real productivity is first, not gaming/synthetic benchmark 'scores' that I bicker over.

See:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/skylake-intel-core-i7-6700k-core-i5-6600k,4252-5.html


Look at the differences between the times in the link above between Win8.1 and Win10.

How many times and how many ways do I have to repeat this? 'Scores' - especially synthetic/theoretical, gaming (FPS averages...), and other methods that pinpoint a specific aspect of a processor (or other component) don't mean anything. The whole is greater than the sum of the parts. And the whole is the only thing worth arguing about.

Windows 10 x64 Pro is in a league of its own in real world use. And it is only the beginning of week 2...

What I stated yesterday is confirmed by a third party on exactly the same hardware and test methods except for the O/S. And as I hint at continuously, it supports the fact that the latest O/S paired with the latest Platform will always (okay; usually) give the best performance at any given point in time.

Now, if these are mere 'fixes' to the oh so horrible Win8.1... I'm still good.

I wasn't born using an O/S or expecting how it should work. I adapted, learned and bent it to suit my purposes. All the way from DOS 1.0 to today. Win10 is no picnic to be sure vs. what I 'know' from Windows 95... but I'm not dead yet and learning has never been optional.

I have been complacent about the tech (hardware) once or twice in the past. That is why I joined here when SSD's seemed like the thing I should jump onto back in 2009... What I learned by letting my processes stagnate because of antiquated hardware was that I was driving myself out of business. Never, ever again.

Sure, large corporations may have the luxury and the ROI calculations to support staying on the oldest tech possible (though I suspect it is more of a way and reason to give the executives their huge bonuses each year). But for myself, a 'small' business with less than 50 workstations to support, staying still means falling behind.

And with the performance numbers in the link above, it means falling behind drastically (from 30% to 100% over any of my competitors who upgrade to a new platform and/or O/S before me on the common workloads that link depicts).

 

All I can say is good for you on Win 8.x or whatever you use. It is your business and your workflow so what ever works for you is the best option for you. I stand behind others being wrong for doubting your experience as it is yours. Again I just state about the security issues as I am one of those OCD people about things like that.

I too feel the OS runs better than W7 for my tasks other than metro getting in the way of workflow, edge driving me exactly there, the forced driver issue, and privacy. Like I said I want this too work out. I think it shows some real promise but it has some serious issues too address.

I am not a start menu user to begin with, use rocket doc, so for me the present one is fine.

 

Really? So then you point to improved performance in a few closely related pieces of software from one single vendor? Software, I might add, that in fact shares very large amounts of code? Are you serious? Surely you must jest. You may want to repeat your wisdom above to yourself, a couple of times, until it starts to sink in.

Other than that, spare me that tired nonsense about those terrible people that are resistant to change and all of that blah blah. Fact is, people happily updated from XP to even Vista to Windows 7, but they refused to go to Windows 8. Fact is, no other Windows operating system in history has been shunned as much as Windows 8. Chances are there were reasons for that.

 

No name calling, period!

 

TANWare, I too used RocketDock for a very long time even though I wouldn't touch a fruity computer and O/S for my own workflows. I actually just uninstalled it a couple of months ago as I can hit the WIN key and type two or three letters of any program I need to run faster than I could pick up the mouse and find the right icon... and I noticed that even while navigating the O/S and being on the desktop (with no other windows open or otherwise minimized), I would use the keyboard before I clicked on the program icon I wanted even if it was 'right there'. It simply outlived it's usefulness to me.

It was once a good tool to use. But again; progress marches on and at least for me, MS seems to know/predict/create a method of what works better today.


I am with you on the privacy too. I disabled a bunch of stuff on the Win10 upgrades I did, like SmartScreen, Cortana and all the location and Ad stuff too (sorry, can't remember it all right now; but I know I didn't want it enabled).

Metro doesn't get in the way as long as I can click the 'X' button when I mouse to the top of any stupid 'app' I run accidently (or on purpose) or if I can use the ALT and F4 keys to close them. For everything else? Metro doesn't even exist in my compute day (but I do like the weather app... lol..).

I had to take a step back and rethink of when I first upgraded from each O/S to the next... and, yeah; I would not have done so if my productivity went down. Neither can I see the issues that Win10 'fixes' as isolated problems (at the most) in Windows 8 and 8.1 - those are inherently driven by the under the hood engine/kernel that drives Windows at it's core and not likely something that I would have missed (along with all the other Win users) in all other aspects of the O/S.

The Tomshardware article I linked above indicated that they will be exploring what performance changes an O/S makes. I will be looking for that very eagerly if and when they publish it. Especially curious to see the benefits of a newer platform vs. any older ones on different O/S's too.

Pirx,

That software mimics my workflows, so yeah that is what I can use as proof of my statements that Win10 is superior.

Every single person I have shown how to use Win8/Win8.1 has been happily using it for (some people...) many years. The people that 'shun' Win8 are the ones that did not get a new computer in the last few years or use alternate O/S's (i.e. not Windows).

I am not worried about being ignorant of other's workflows here - that is not the point of this thread - that is the question I'm asking of all. But, I am stating that in my workflows the benefits of Win10 even when I'm just navigating the O/S, are very obvious.

That 16% Win8.1 adaptation rate you state is of how many millions of users? Considering the downturn the world economy has faced... can it be that it is right in line with the 'new systems sold'?

What I know is that I fought much harder to get people to accept Vistax64 over what I have to say to convince them to buy Win8.1 today. Even the systems I upgraded for others (at their request) took less than 15 minutes to get them up to speed again, and that was while I was learning it too (my biggest fear; I thought IE11 was gone; but typing 'ie' into the 'Search the web and Windows' task bar box brought it right up).

I do want to know what benefits there are for other users/workflows than mine, that question is in my first post, after all.

But I can't understand why your biases prevent you from believing (even with 3rd party proof) that so far, my experience with Windows 10 has been very positive? Kind of like you need to take your own advice and re-read the thread and your advice quoted below too?

The fact that this is the first O/S in MS history that has been offered for free should not go unnoticed too. Sure, they may be trying to save face as you would want to believe, but I think this puts real money, performance and features into peoples hands that can be spent and used as they wish, and that is nothing to scoff at either (even if you can't stand Win'X' yourself).

We all have a few months to decide if we want to take the free Windows 10 from MS - for myself, that means at least a whole few new system's worth of actual hard value by not having to buy the O/S for my existing few dozens of workstations too.

 

The problem I have with Metro apps right now is they take over. The two I refer too right now are the Photo viewer and video. I pay for other apps and where my other apps do not need operation the old legacy Windows apps do not hinder my workflow. Metro on the start menu is of no consequence to my workflow.

The manual update thing already broke my P79xx so I had to revert it. Reversion left me with a corrupt task scheduler so probability is this is why the cumulative update would not work. Thing is nowhere would it give error codes or anything for me to track it down to fix it. At one point it said it could not move a file as the error code said it was too big. I had 46GB free. They just take so much control away that once it is broke , it is broke.

 

That may be a matter of reading comprehension. I never said any of this, and in fact I have no problem believing what you said. Why would I? The issue at hand is not the pleasure of an individual user, or even a set of users with specific workflows. All of this has been laid out in great detail, by myself and many others before, so I won't reiterate this material.

No, it can't. All of that information is readily available, just look it up. As one anecdote, all of the PCs purchased in my organization (with a couple thousand PCs) to this day are ordered with Windows 7.

Free? Don't make me laugh! I have a hard time believing that you are really that naïve.

No, seriously, what I have noticed is that Microsoft is now pursuing other ways of monetizing Windows, by forcing various forms of clickbait in front of users in order to provide advertising revenue. See here for a good example. Personally, I'd much rather pay for my OS than have my very valuable time stolen so that Microsoft can siphon money off of me indirectly. But, my time is valuable, perhaps not everyone feels that way.

 

Problem is, if you upgrade sure it's "free", but what if you buy a retail disc? Is it not the same issues? So even paying customers get shafted. And I agree. Give me the option to pay for the OS without advertising. I mean it's bad enough that these "free to play" games are becoming more abundant. Now it's moved on to the OS. I'm OK if software is offered as "free with advertising" or reduced price with advertising like the Amazon Kindle but give the option to buy an opt-out of all that advertising crap. I will pay to have something for my own. I don't want advertising shoved down my throat when I'm trying to get a job done.

 

TANWare,

I can agree that things are not perfect and they never will be (for every single individual at the same time...), but I am optimistic that the major issues will be fixed in further iterations of the O/S. This is just the beginning down this new road and so far, the improvements outweigh any negatives that I (or my clients) have experienced personally.

Pirx, sorry for misunderstanding your context, but that is how your post came across to me (at least, initially).

I did spend a few minutes googling 'market share' and back in May 2013... Windows 8 had sold 100 million licenses, so, the % market share at 16% (or whatever it is) does not spell the disaster for me as clearly as it does for you (and yeah; I do know the controversy about that figure too...). Especially when considering that the method(s) used to reach those percentages are not available anywhere. In addition to not including China with their rampant pirating of all things digital (including O/S's) and people who upgrade, downgrade or otherwise use something different on their system than what was sold with it at one point in time (like me...).

Either way, the absolute number of copies is huge and growing daily and market share is not an indication of how good something is inherently; it usually depends on other factors as I mentioned before too (like a need for a new system for many, many people before they even consider buying just an O/S). Now that upgrading for many consumers is free to move to Windows 10, let's see in a few months how much that affects % market share. As I mentioned too with your comment about your company's PC purchases with Win7 - there are other factors involved too - not just how much better the O/S really is - bonuses do have to be paid from somewhere, after all.


I also read that article about how Win10 isn't free. Yeah; I knew that. But I also (already) did the two things in the article that made sense and actually stops me having to worry about it again. Disable Bing and remove the tiles I don't use.

But, put a third party start menu to get me back to 1995? What am I? Senile?

All the other things the article discusses is pretty lame, imo. Without taking chances a person or a company cannot grow. Mistakes will be made and hopefully corrected. But asking for something (the start menu) to remain set in stone is a little backwards, I think.

It bears repeating: when I was testing out the preview of Win8 so long ago, I was very vocal (at first) how bad the design was for a desktop based workflow. But when I started using Win8 on a test system sporadically to actually do mock work with... hmmm... I could see the improvements even over the glaring disappointments at that time.

By the time Win8 shipped, my frame of mind had changed similar to having to work with a colleague that rubbed me (personally) the wrong way, but at the same time that I also admired and appreciated for the quality input they had into our (forced) collaboration. Applying the same methods of working with, instead of fighting with a new O/S, moving people to the new platform became easy, overnight. Mostly because the underlying benefits were there for them to see immediately (stability, speed, security and even, familiarity when it was introduced to people the right way).

I agree 100% that my time is the most valuable resource I have (as it is for everyone else too).

Leaving real (productivity) improvements on the table for others to exploit just because we refuse to change/adapt/refocus our habits and our expectations is not in our best interest, in the long run.

To put it bluntly; cutting off your nose to spite your face is, uh... childish, in my view.

If there are any real showstoppers from using Windows 10 (or Win8/Win8.1 for issues that are not fixed in Win10...) I'd like to know.

My 'work' workflows may be extreme for most (when I'm editing multiple 1,000's of RAW NEF's into multiple versions of the same file and trying to sort and categorize them for even further processing), but even in my more laid back use of computers, Win8.1 (and soon, Win10...) is what gives me the tools I need to do it the most efficiently and in the least time (and sometimes, one does not necessarily include the other).

It seems to me that at least the more important issues raised about how bad Win8/8.1/10 is can be 'fixed' pretty easily (and I agree that they need to be, or at least should be tweaked/disabled on any new install).

I'm curious what are the show stoppers for you with anything more modern than Win7?

 

First thing I did, I downloaded x64 and x32 versions of home and pro, both in english and finnish. Result is 8 ISO files totalling 23GB. It's good to have them available.

 

I'm afraid I cannot answer that question for you, but you may notice that nobody has asked for a Start Menu from the 90s. What people were asking for was a Start Menu that's not crippled by removed functionality. Among the most crucial features is the hierarchical menu. You really would have to be a complete fool to not understand that this is a significant drawback. Even without the fact that apparently some idiot at Microsoft has decided that a database with a fixed size limit of 500 entries is all that anyone would ever need...

Sure, I agree. However, there are no such improvements in WinX, for me, but there's a long list of significant drawbacks. Thus the decision to ignore this OS is a no-brainer for me.

Oh, and I hope you do understand that you would probably do well to respect my expertise regarding my own work, and my personal assessment of my own needs, do you not? I would thus ask you to try and put a lid on inane insinuations like the above. You have no understanding of any kind of the motivations for my decisions, and no basis for the above kind of veiled insults.

Don't pretend to be dense. Those have been discussed ad nauseam. Read the material if you're truly interested.

I would not call the scenario you mention "extreme" in any meaningful sense of the word, rather than " extremely narrow". I would further submit that your glowing assessment of the productivity gains you obtain from WinX based on such a narrow scenario is therefore just as valid and generalizeable as the one of somebody who says "all I ever do on my computer is play World of Warcraft and browse the WoW users' forum X" (Disclaimer: I'm not sure if people still play this game, and really know nothing about it). In other words, your assessment and experience with WinX means next to nothing to just about anybody in this world, except your employees/co-workers, I guess.

Lack of a Start Menu, for starters. Lots of other issues. Like I said, I'm not going to repeat all of this here for your convenience.

 

Pirx,

It doesn't seem like you want a conversation about this issue at all. No problem.

Thanks for pointing out the 500 start menu entries is a limitation for you and others. I did not know that could be possible.

To be clear; I am not making any veiled insults or pretending to be dense, nor am I disrespecting your decision about what is best for your workflow. Now, it's your turn to try to not read more into things than what was intended. Again, I thought we were having a conversation?

I am also not a fool for not understanding your stance on a hierarchical menu's importance in my day to day workflows. I did ask about how it affects you but you're too ???? to respond, simply for my convenience...

I posted this thread to learn first hand what the benefits or otherwise people find in the latest Win iteration. If you don't want to contribute any more than you already have; we're cool.

Really, no hard feelings. But your case against Win8/8.1/10 as it stand in this thread is weak.

As to referencing the internet (aka; google) for the show stoppers*** of anything newer than Win7 - we've discussed a few of them here and I've shown how I dealt with them in my case, but right now, to me, you are the internet, personified. A logical and rationale explanation of those issues from you would be more relevant than the fluff repeated on the internet ad nauseam that I've already weeded through myself (as mentioned in my posts above) years ago and have learned to let go and/or work around.

You don't need to reply to my request if you don't want to, of course. But I hope others that feel the same as you do.

Because my reality is this: talking to people in person, I have not seen one that couldn't make Win8/8.1 and now Win10 work for them, instead of against them. As one person told me if I wanted to put the system back how it was for them from Windows 7 (to Win1o); No! It is called a 'downgrade' for a reason. After spending less than half an hour with them on that day... they haven't called me for 'support' since (and they're close to 80 yrs old).


*** Show stopper: either it prevents you from doing something you need to do 100% or it is merely an inconvenience that you don't want to work around. Thanks TANWare.

 

Show stopper is not really a good term to use. To one person it means what is stopping you, to another it could be what is 100% impossible, not inconvenient, to use.

 

Giving windows 8 a try, this was an important realization for me, so I'm glad you've added it here. It's interesting in that I can use the windows key method much faster than navigating through the start menu, so there's a nice gain there. I have a windows 7 computer at work and click on the "all programs" button perhaps once every 3 weeks, typically sighing when I do because I haven't figured out the right letters to type, which slows me down. To be clear, I don't advocate for taking the start menu away, as the two should co-exist in harmony, but I was happy I found a much more efficient way of doing things.

While I responded directly earlier to the gaming benchmarks, I am also very interested in other how the difference looks in other software. I was quite excited to read your initial post and will be reading some of the links you posted this evening. Thanks for adding that information!

Some items will always be pretty valid concerns (forced updates - fortunately I have pro) and while I think some things are absurd (the 512 program limit), at least the latter is slated to be fixed. A number of reviews have pointed this out, but the general "bug" type things (like the 512 program limit) seem to be more common than previous releases. That's unfortunate, but I was pleasantly surprised last time finding some improvements I wouldn't have otherwise found, so we'll see what this time brings around.

 

For a bit of perspective, a virgin Windows 7 install has roughly 300 Start Menu entries total. Install your typical suite of productivity applications and perhaps a development environment or two, and you're well beyond 500 without much effort.

 

I agree, it wouldn't be hard at all to get to 500+. Consider too that every program you install tends to add 4-5 other entries: uninstaller, some website link, a help file, etc and your count could go up very quickly.

To make matters worse, there was no indication to the user that they had hit the limit and their results weren't accurate.

 

How about we compromise, they can keep the 500 limit but get rid of Metro? JK of course as I am sure that will never happen but this just as sure as it will get fixed or how else can they sell all those metro apps?

 

See:
http://laptopmedia.com/reviews/windows-8-1-vs-windows-10-comparison-in-over-20-performance-tests/


Just over three weeks and it is at least (very close to) equal or better to what came before, performance-wise, at least in real world benchmarks.

Even CDM is showing 564% improvement in the 4K write metric (which is where I think I am feeling the increased responsiveness of the O/S).

While gaming depends on the game, PS shows a slight (3%) increase for Win10 and PCMark7 shows almost 22% improvement for that 'score'. Too bad they don't have PCMark8 scores instead.

With the memory compression improvements still coming, this can only get better.

See:
http://www.tenforums.com/windows-10-news/17993-windows-10-memory-compression.html

Want to see these results on a Skylake platform with 32GB+ 2667MHz RAM and a PCIe x4 SSD.


These are the kinds of things a new O/S can do (inherently) that an old one cannot (even with 3rd party software) and it is these incremental advances that keeps improving the systems we have today and will make tomorrows systems even better.

This seems like a step towards having the O/S optimized for Optane type devices in less than six months to me (reduced writes to the XPoint nand...) too.

 

Some info about privacy in this Anandtech podcast.

See:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9575/the-anandtech-podcast-episode-35-windows-10-and-skylake


Basically, if you've used anything from Vista on, you have nothing more to 'fear' from Win10.

 

The fact it does telemetry from every LOCAL file I open and close, it is a goner for me. My local files and usage are sacred and private to me, end of story.

What do you mean basically it means nothing to worry about, repeatedly he states the privacy people have valid concerns and hopes the privacy issues are addressed! The thing since vista is supposedly the family security and safety which was revamped.

 

What telemetry does it do exactly? I did not understand the 'since Vista' part the same way as you either.

 

The huge issue is they are collecting data of off line files and usage. Where as with Google and Android the apps themselves are by design cloud apps meaning all workflow can either be coming in or out under telemetry PC's have for years had a different work structure. This offline structure is perfect for protecting private files, programs and information. W10 is trying to dismantle this and M$ is now trying to add similar telemetry to older versions of Windows to do the same thing.

The problem is we do not know what is being collected and/or for what reason but it can be proven telemetry data even with everything disabled and tweaks applied is still sent relevant to local files and folders. Once it is local on my machine NO ONE ELSE has the rights to information on it!

 

I agree with your sentiments 100%.

But fear of the unknown is the greatest fear of all. Unless and until we know what is being sent, I think this 'fear' is a little out of proportion. Hope I'm not wrong in this belief.

 

Given MS' past record I'd rather err on the side of caution, but that's me...

 

Also the problem is not just what is being sent and collected but the hackability. Look at the jail broken phones hacked with a app from the Chinese repository. Data on your local computer is never even 100% safe do I want it elsewhere too at least doubling my risk factor if not being even further at risk from the third parties and partners. I do not even want them knowing the files, how often and how long I am using them. Again it is all my private data. Even if it were 100% harmless to give away it is my private data. I have my rights and am not giving a single inch.

IMHO I'll again state that going past the router is like going outside. Your expectation of privacy is greatly reduced. On my side of the router that becomes like anything else in the privacy of my home. The doors are shut, windows closed and blinds drawn.

 

Again; we agree 100% on these issues.

But if/when I want total and complete privacy; the computer simply NEVER connects to any ISP, EVER.

 

Agreed there too, if the doors are not locked by just not connecting you are always open to a home invasion.

 

We're never totally safe, are we?

 

One word, nope.....

 

No we're not.

With that said, I choose not to stand outside in the middle of a thunderstorm holding a 30-foot metal rod. But that's me.

 

And that is not how it feels to me either.

The tradeoff is more than offset by the benefits in my workflow over Win8.1x64Pro.

When/if I see a method or utility that can reliably turn off telemetry without slowing my system down (or disabling parts of it...), I will implement it company-wide.

 

See:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9582/intel-skylake-mobile-desktop-launch-architecture-analysis

Speed Shift Technology, Hardware P states, and even Duty Cycling of the cores need Win10 and higher. Even if they're not all fully implemented yet in Skylake.

One more reason to have the latest O/S paired with the latest available platform.


Side note:

• I upgraded an Inspiron 1520 (w/HDD) to Win10 and couldn't understand why it was still crawling. I saw almost immediately that it was using the default AHCI SATA driver (which many swear is faster than IRST in BM 'scores') and went looking for something more current than 2006...
• Driver Scape suggested the 10.1.2.1004 driver and it did noticeably improve the responsiveness of the system. However, the best driver 10.1.5.1001 made the system jump in responsiveness much more (boot up w/HDD went from 2 minutes to 30 seconds).
• This is another example of how taking the few minutes to properly setup the system will pay off each time it is used in the next few months/years.

Before finding the storage drivers (and the chipset and video drivers too) this old system would be left in a corner and forgotten. Properly setup, and with Win10 driving the hardware optimally, it feels like it has more than a couple of years life left in it (and that is with a 160GB HDD- that has also been properly partitioned and setup).

 

Agreed, the proper drivers are required. With the defaults even this was a dog but once I found them it was much better but for me still not as good as W7.

 

Not as good in BM's or in real world use? Or... ???

 

Boot was still slower, I just could not find the drivers to get this really jumping. Real world felt ever so slightly slower but also a bit smoother. I liked the operational value of the OS just the privacy issues were paramount. If they get out of the local file and usage I doubt there would be anyone left to really hard press them.

Yes they also need to get out of the forced driver bit too. My feeling there is since the PRO version was the workstation version of choice just stop forced drivers and other updates there as options. I could even see pro being the local file privacy option as well.

 

See:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/windows-10-build-10547,30120.html

See:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9645/windows-10-build-10547-brings-some-nice-changes-for-insiders

Consistent, constant and continuous small improvements like this (along with a few others for this latest release) is what will make the Win10 model successful.

And the ones that want to experiment can with the Insider builds (for the rest of us...) and in the end, all will benefit too. A much better system than an O/S a year or two or ten...

 

So you are predicting it will be a success. In its current state of forced updates on hardware and privacy concerns I do not see that happening. The IT people they depend on for Insider Builds are from what can be seen jumping ship from these concerns and M$ lack of initiative to address them. My bet here is 95% of IT people are more concerned about the forced driver updates than a 512 limit on start menu icons.

Edit; I also have to add that even if those new features are only supported in W10 unless we have the hardware then W10 is not going to use those new features. So this may one day in the future be a reason to keep W10 on a new system we purchase at the time it is not a real reason to run it today.

It almost seems you are trying to mislead with counter clockwise circular logic. Run an OS that will cause all kinds of issues just so you can have one that supports features you can not possibly have enabled yet nor may ever will in the system you are currently running.

 

Don't need to predict anything. So far, it is a success and should be able to continue being so.

Not that MS can't screw this up. But I'm leaning optimist today.

Besides, that 512 limit was meant for Pirx, as he/she to be sensitive to the old limit just a few weeks ago (and Windows 7 and previous had anyways).

No circular reasoning on my part. I take a good hard look at was is before me right now. I don't to mislead anyone, least of all myself.

If something is working, what is the point of worrying about it if it might fail, in some future timeframe.

I prefer to cross real bridges, if and when they appear. Otherwise, a favorite closet with my teddy bear and my blanky is always there to comfort me too, if need be.