Win10x64Pro upgrade from Win8.1 thoughts and musings...

I would hold off on the success part, it has been staggering at 7.3% market share for the last few days. On the other side of the coin I would not say it is a flop yet either.

 

Already higher than all of the fruity empire...

 

How on Earth is that supposed to be a point of measurement for a Windows OS?

 

Early days, early days. July 29, 2015 is still less than 53 days since launch. And they're already bigger than the magical co.

Sorry if my analogy hits a sore spot.

 

Don't know what the sore spot was supposed to be...but when compared to OSX's market share even XP looks great...

 

So, three months later after Win10 became official, a little update...


After three months of updates (which I would equate to roughly 6 months worth - if the release wasn't brand new...), I had the chance to use an AMD E-350 + 55" 1080i TV setup for about an hour.

I had my doubts that it would still be smooth (this apu is pathetically slow) after 3 months of use and bogged down with updates, but my fears were unfounded.

I did force an update check and sure enough, this system crawled to first check and then apply the Windows Defender Definition update. But that was the last time I noticed how slow this system actually is (or, should I say was, with Win8.1).

I not only checked email, but also read a few PDF's, surfed the web and hit youtube for some classic rock too.

Especially for youtube, the performance improvements of Windows 10 are readily apparent. When on Win8.1, this system would routinely freeze, stutter and crash IE when surfing - let alone surfing youtube.

I have a newfound respect for MS. Hope this continues for us and them.

 

I, nor anyone else, have eluded that the OS is not a good OS. It is unless you are one who places high value to synthetic numbers. Personally I prefer smooth multitasking of multiple single threads over the pure crunch of single threads for performance numbers.

The issues lie in the forced hardware upgrades and/or privacy concerns. The older th hardware the less likely you will be affected by hardware driver issues as they would less likely release new ones. Privacy though, other than for consumption devices, is always a concern. While yes on the later front we have not yet had an issue but this is little comfort to those that worry about these things.

 

*Glug, glug*

 

The Kool-Aid which is drunk 'automatically' against anything 'MS' is just as insidious.

 

Thing is, at least with Linux, that the decision is anything but an easy one. Anyone going into such a conversion half baked is just asking for trouble and everyone asking you to come over will tell you so too. That and lastly nothing out there right now as concerned to privacy is as insidious as W10, nothing!

 

The thing is, if you want privacy from any O/S you can operate today, you need the system to be permanently disconnected from the 'net - permanently, no exceptions. But, the O/S is not the only source of concern for privacy issues facing anyone today.

This thread is about the performance, stability and features of Win10 vs. anything and everything that has come before.

On that basis, Win10x64Pro is head and shoulders above anything I've used - ranging from platforms that used to struggle to simply keep time correctly - AMD E-350 - (okay; exaggeration noted...) to the fastest systems available today and I'm sure, well into the future.

I had a few clients that had systems in their back rooms that never saw the 'net, ever, quite a few years ago. When those same clients found that those systems and even older (DOS based) programs needed more $$$$ and time to keep them working indefinitely than simply getting a new system/program, they had no choice but to agree to the facts presented before them. What was harder for them to be convinced of and accept was that the new systems should be 'net connected and updated on a regular schedule too.

After supporting (hand holding) them for half a decade in this new way of computer maintenance, they confided that not only did the last 5 years cost them less than the previous 5 years for 'computer related work' (monthly maintenance for 3-5 'core' business computers of 2 to 5 hours per month), but it was still less even when including the 3 new systems cost (plus setup) too (which replaced 7 to 9 systems over that time frame).

Privacy comes at a cost. And that cost is ever higher each year.

Not because it is worth more than yesterday. It is so because the benefits of giving away some privacy usually outweighs the potential loss. The trick is to balance the 'giving away' with the benefits offered.

And the benefits are (or at least; should be) translated into the one true currency; time.

My client example above have a few $$$ a month and little of their own time put to a system that has been operating now for almost 3/4 or a decade without any downtime at all. Before, when there was a computer issue? Weeks of downtime and $$$$'s wasted to go back to the same (bad) old system. To be clear; when the systems were down, that meant every transaction was manual, for all employees...

They still ask a few times a year how safe they are now that their systems are online vs. when they were just plugged into the A/C power. The answer I give is always the same: infinitely less secure, potentially (and it depends greatly on what they and their employees do on the systems). Then I ask them if they want to go back to where they were? NO.

Just like a platform, a system, a component or a process - life is about balance. And that implies that you can't simply just get more of one without also getting less of something else.

Trading too much to have one thing (privacy) will just leave you having less of something possibly even more valuable (time).

But regardless of the above, Windows 10 continues to improve since it's short introduction just over 3 months ago (with two more major updates yesterday...). This is 'more power to the people'. How they choose to use it, is up to them.

 

Well if this is the case the thread needs retitling. Presently it mentions nothing about exclusivity to performance or stability.

 

With all due respect, there is nothing wrong with the title. The first post is what dictates the thread's intent, no?

 

Not really, problem is while your post related to the title it does not constrain the title. Now if you would have constrain the title by mentioning it only relates to operating system functionality, then that might have been different. By the title who posts here are not just constrained to your thoughts and musings, but their own as well. So with all due respect you have unfortunately left this thread open 2 comments that now apparently you weren't originally intending.

 

Not worried about additional comments, if the content can be intelligently discussed (which I think so far we've achieved).

 

That was the intent - to compare and contrast the musings of myself and others.

 

See:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9751/examining-intel-skylake-speed-shift-more-responsive-processors

The promises made (by Intel and MS...) keep happening in a timely manner. I also wonder what other under the hood improvements Windows 10 Threshold 2 will bring?

If similar things can be done for X-Point/Optane in similarly quick time, very soon we should see a significant disparity between a modern platform running Win10 and anything running even a year (or less) ago. Not just in absolute performance or IPC (which is always appreciated, of course), but also/finally in how responsive a new system will feel to the user too (one of my favorite quests for computer systems in the last ~4 decades).

I am not holding my breathe for this to happen tomorrow, but if Intel and MS can do this for the mobile phone market too, I am ready to be excited again by the possibility that a mobile/handheld device can actually be used for something other than a digital rolodex.

As it is right now; doing a simple 'swipe to answer' means having the first sentence I utter needing to be repeated...

- EVER SINGLE TIME.

This is NOT how a digital 'anything' should work like.

Can't wait for Intel and MS to do some of this same magic for the mobile handhelds. Greatly increase responsiveness, performance (up to 50% in the WebXPRT Photo Enhancement subtest) and battery life too (if even, slightly). That is a 'smart' phone I would pay $2.5K for (again).

 

Windows 10 Fall Update (previously known as Windows 10 Threshold 2) is chock full of goodies.

See:
http://www.windowscentral.com/whats-new-windows-10-fall-update


I know, I know; privacy is still a concern for many...

But curious if this is the milestone others were waiting for before they take the Win10 plunge?

 

Well they did say one thing that is right...

oh how true.
So @Matric Leader what do you think ??

 

At least this is a welcome change:

 

The problem falls between the privacy and the forced hardware updates.

 

I know it is a big proplem for me..

 

Forced hardware updates?

 

You mean you did not know this ??

 

No, I've never heard about this at all...

The only 'forced' hardware upgrade I know about is when a manufacturer offers a significantly better product for my workflows than what I am currently using (yeah; direct comparision...).

And in that case it is not so much as 'forced' as it is a business requirement to stay ahead (or at least keep up) with my competitors.

 

I believe that we have a misunderstanding here...

What was referred to as "hardware upgrades" are the actual *forced* driver updates that W10 pushes onto the owner of the system, whether they want them or not...many of us are not all that keen on MS-issued drivers and prefer OEM ones by a huge margin, for a slew of reasons....

 

My bad....thats what I meant. So you must know about them

 

If I'm not mistaken though, OEM's are/will be pushing their drivers to MS (through Windows Updates) though?

What is wrong with a fully up to date platform, driver-wise? For 'all' users... (and not just the select few that pursue having the latest, fastest and most stable drivers installed).

Most systems I see today still have many outdated drivers and usually, newer drivers fix any issues the owners were experiencing.

The O/S, software and driver interaction is not independent of each other. They work together to create a better overall experience. While in the past OEM drivers may have been superior - that is not how it will be going forward.

And with the O/S being in a constant state of change (same as software, btw...), having static/oem drivers is so 'old school' that it is pre-historic, imo.

The changes are as broad as they are sweeping and all encompassing. Embrace them or not, at your own peril.



An excellent example is WiFi. Where the decisions made by the O/S manufacturer wreaks havoc with existing routers (with newer or older firmware/drivers). Sticking with old/oem drivers may work today for some - but that is no guarantee that it will continue even by tomorrow when AC class and beyond equipment is upgraded step by step to incorporate and exploit the capabilities that AC class WiFi was designed for - so many years ago.

Sitting still today means becoming obsolete overnight.

Yeah; I'm sure we'll have 'experiences' that are not 100% fun or trouble-free on the way there... But it has been like this for a long time now - except we needed to do this manually (if at all...). The only difference? MS is recognizing that this is just as important going forward as having a continually updated O/S is. Important, of course, to having as close as possible the same 'experience' no matter what hardware we use (new, old or bleeding edge).

 

Not necessarily. And that's just one aspect of the story.

The fact that I've personally seen WU-issued drivers break functionality of other - often quite important - utilities on various systems. Newer is not always better. Not by a long stretch.

Now, if I install a driver which messes the system up I can revert to the old one, but W10 will keep on pushing the newer driver through WU until Kingdom Come, causing headaches time and again. Thanks but no thanks.

Well, one doesn't get that choice with W10 and its force-fed driver updates and that's a *huge* part of the problem, at least for silly old me.

It sure is. For my standpoint as well as yours. It all depends on the particular piece of hardware involved.

 

I agree 100% with your perspective. I just find it impossible to believe that MS would allow it to continue for too long before they fixed any serious issues though.

But for some workflows, 'too long' may be just a one time event; that, I understand too.

We'll see how this looks like a year or so from today.

 

See:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9782/windows-10-fall-update-available-filling-out-the-business-gaps


I don't have it available in my area yet. But I can taste it already!

 

You are joking right, where is the enterprise version? Then we can decide if this is worth it for business.

 

Nah, we don't need enterprise for business use. Not everyone can have a multi-thousand strong workforce to use the latest software.

And actually? I feel sorry for the enterprise users - sure, they're protected from these dangerous updates from MS... but they're living behind the times too.

 

In actuality the pro version should be more selectable to the updates and privacy. Hopefully with the enterprise version it will more align. If not then businesses have plenty of tie to look into alternatives.

Behind the times, best laugh all day. Many large business ventures have their own domains images and the like. None of them are just going to hand over their trade secrets. I really do not know where you are coming from an TBH where at one point I respected your thoughts etc. lately it is hard too.

 

If we disagree on this, a new topic, does it means that my previous conversations were tainted? Lol...

Nobody asked to hand over trade secrets. But as I've kept insisting; not keeping up is the same as staying behind.

And the few systems I've seen so far with 'Windows Fall Update - 1511' just confirm it more.

 

By letting any outside company in to see your files, see your workflow etc. you are essentially giving the shop away. I am not saying issues will ever happen but the possibility is there. Private owners as well as most others pay to stop these intrusions on prior to W10 systems, now because it is M$ doing it we are to accept it, not quite.

 

No man is an island and far less so is a corporation. Ever heard of consultants? They see everything too.


Not to mention that all companies need to protect themselves not only from outsiders, but mostly; from their own workers, instead.

 

That's what NDAs are for...

Partially true. With that being said, there's no reason to just offer one's business info on a silver platter to anyone.

 

And just what (specifically) is being offered on a silver platter here (to MS)?

 

Any data that gets picked up by W10's telemetry...which can be quite a lot...I'm not about to re-hash concerns expressed and well-documented in numerous posts dealing with this issue from other W10 threads.

 

You don't need to re-hash anything (that is what links are for). But I don't know of anyone who knows what W10's telemetry contains.

And on point; 'any data' is not quite the specific answer I was looking for.

 

No one knows everything - apart from MS themselves, obviously - but we know enough at this point. Enough to be extremely cautious like were handling nitroglycerine.

That would depend on what the machine contains in the first place, don't you think? Have you bothered reading the W10 EULA? I have....and I'll *never* install the OS in question on a system that goes online, period.

 

No, I think it is because we don't know enough and (some) let our imaginations and our prejudice fuel our worst fears.

Crapple, groogle and anything big enough 'cloud' has been doing this for years already (if we let them), yet we grow a pair when it's MS?

No point in reading the current EULA (I would in the past) - I need to use Windows and the latest, fastest, most stable and most secure version too. Right now, that's Win10x64Pro.

The EULA is there to protect MS, agreed. But other organizations are protecting us from MS too.

The difference is that while I'll be around for a few more years to care about this stuff (and, I do - just not fanatical about it), MS (the corporation) will be around forever. Or at least as close to forever when compared to my small lifespan that it doesn't matter.

Don't I worry about privacy? Oh yeah, sure. I take all the steps I can to minimize what they can gather from my systems.

But like everything else there is an opportunity cost. Right now, giving up some 'telemetry' to MS is worth what I can accomplish with their software and no other.

YMMV, but I do not operate on fear.

Rather, I proceed with facts that can be easily weighed and measured.

See:
http://www.computerworld.com/article/2975004/microsoft-windows/4-overblown-windows-10-worries.html


Are the default settings bad? Yeah. But I never install anything with default settings.

And then there is this:

See:
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/8...crosoft-from-collecting-more-of-your-data.htm


It is not Windows 10 that is the problem. It is the cloud, siri/Cortana, 'location awareness', bookmark syncing and all that other junk that almost everyone wants to depend on...

But, go ahead and shoot yourself in the foot to spite your nose. In the end it doesn't matter.

If I'm reading your replies, you're online and being spied on already. No matter what O/S other than Win10 you think is safe to use.

 

Whose protecting us ?? If someone is then they are a little late stepping up to the plate.

 

The problem does not so much lie in privacy so far as consumption exists but that they track everything including production. Leave the files alone along with keylogging and email etc. and the privacy issues will largely die off. M$ has just pushed the envelope too far.

Edit; no nose cutting here; there is no feature of W10 that justifies the risks, none at all.

 

TANWare, for some businesses and individuals, you may be right (granted).

See:
http://arstechnica.com/information-...date-features-fixes-and-enterprise-readiness/

(Italics mine).


Even with the concerns stated on this thread, there are many that have already taken the plunge to the latest Windows, even in the corporate space.

But do note, that with all the new features Windows 1511 has for enterprise, deferring updates indefinitely is still not one of them (i.e. nothing and no one stands still).

How I see this perceived privacy risk to myself is like this:

I have all my machines under physical lock and key. In a security controlled (cameras, card locks, etc.) building. With multiple levels of passwords. And each system is tweaked to not give up information easily to MS, google, adobe, java or anyone else...

But that all comes to naught when I hand over a USB drive (brand new, never before used - to each client, btw) with my work to them. Even some of my clients think that my privacy concerns stop there. But they don't.

The work (images) I've just handed over are still mine (I almost never sell the rights to images outright). And after they leave my possession, I have no control at all with how they are used (contrary to what my contracts might state). While I may have legal rights (which might be resolved years after I die...), I effectively don't have any direct influence anymore. (This, to me, is more worrisome than the telemetry Win10 is doing).

But the point is this: if I don't share some of the work I do each day... I don't ever get to charge for it.

And increasingly, doing work today means sharing many little tidbits of information with many different people and organizations. And that sharing is mostly via our digital devices (for me; computers... 'dumb' phones need not apply).

Choosing to opt out of using the best O/S to do this with is not just counterproductive, it is business suicide, for almost any business.

As I keep mentioning; this (lack of privacy) has already been going on for years with all the ancillary services most people use without a second thought (I fought it as long as possible, but now, I even use a couple of those services too). The only difference now is that MS is doing it too. As a result, I had to make a choice - jump ship or adapt. But 'standing still' was never an option ever (i.e. 'stick with Win7 'forever').

There are no other sane choices for another O/S that lets me have the control and the choice of software to keep my business running as I want and need. And they ALL have privacy concerns to one degree or another too (and the ones that don't? They are effectively useless as a business tool going into 2016).

And apparently, there are at least another 135+ million others that feel the same too mere months after Win10 was officially released. And of those; 10+ million are enterprise users too.


So TANWare, while I can understand your stance on the privacy issue and Win10, that in no way negates the need to embrace it and make it work for you, rather than fear and (try to) ignore it in hopes it will go away.

My thoughts on this issue are not unique; they are simply the logical evolution of deciding to bring my business up to 2015 standards and beyond.

 

We as users here can control privacy, so the same to an extent can be said for business users as well. This is so long as M$ allows users and IT to hack the OS. No official support of the limitations is bothering to say the least. You also have to trust that they will not somehow later break these abilities either.

As far as updates the hardware bothers me most. Business should ensure compatibility first then if there is a software issue have time to fix it. If the hardware works, it works. Unless the old drivers are broken do not force an upgrade. M$ then has to assume responsibility of fixing damaged machines from other bad updates and possible remediation as well.

 

I really do not get this fixation on hardware (actually drivers/software) issues?

Nobody (the original manufacturer or MS) will offer a driver update for something that is working. Updates are offered because fixes (usability, compatibility and/or security) have been achieved.

Sure, it may not apply to everyone. But the sooner known fixes are taken care of for all the billions of different devices and configurations Windows supports, the better.

Controlling privacy is one thing. Hacking the O/S is not the same thing. Do what you can for the first... but keep the O/S as pristine as possible to avoid creating your own windows nightmare...

 

The problem is when a device gets a new driver the OS can then substitute the present driver with the new version. This becomes a pain where some OEM specific functionality is overwrite by the Windows driver. Other issue can pertain to preferred GPU driver versions etc.. Now this may not be so much an issue for older machines where newer drivers are not available but can be on newer ones.

Hacking the OS, or registry, is fine until the options are embedded within the code and we can not control them. With that this may be the latest but has nothing new in it to make it the greatest. On that thought no one at this moment is loosing anything by not running W10, other than improper drivers for hardware.

 

I guess we will continue to disagree about what is lost by not running Win10 (and this list will just continue to grow as time passes, btw...).

But I can understand the concerns about drivers on a theoretical level. But do you have any specific examples?

I know of one example myself, but that was fixed easily by just installing the OEM driver.