Windows 8 demoralizes even its staunchest defenders...

Well, well, well... After this article I am almost starting to like, in a feel-sorry-for-the-guy kind of way, Turrott. Here's some sound bites:

Heck, I couldn't have said it any better. But it gets worse:

[Emphasis mine]

Interestingly enough, Thurrott now seems to go on arguing that Microsoft should all but abandon the ModernUI experiment altogether:

Now that's pretty harsh, and I am not so sure if it's not going too far. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong with offering the two types of user interfaces, but offer them in such a way that each one is complete on its own, not one crippling and interfering with the other.

 

This, and from Thurrott too? I LOVE IT!

 

yay for more flamebait with durp written all over it. so tired but truly doesn't cease to amaze how much some people care about windows.

 

People like you?

Hmmm let's see...Windows Phone 8...Windows Phone 7.8...yep that's definitely you. I gotta compliment you for your staying power though. Even my Windows enthusiast and M$ fanboi friends won't touch Windows Phone with a ten-foot pole. Majority of them use Android or its derivatives, e.g. CyanogenMod, and a few like myself are on iOS.

 

WM6.5, WM6.1, WM6, WM5, WM2003 -- what's your point again? if there's anything on this planet i couldn't care less about, it's what mobile platform you prefer and what you think about mine. i actually care about it less than i care about windows! lol if you must know, i'm actually hoping jolla makes it to the states however unlikely. what's any of that have to do with W8 flamebait though?

Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk

 

I use windows 8. I upgraded to windows 8.1 and thought it was kind of nifty having the start button back. Windows 8 is better than windows 7 in my eyes. Performance I think is better as well. I like windows in general. I also like Ubunutu and other linux distros. I also like IOS, and the Mac OS which I played with very little.

 

where did you get all of this?

 

The column is ridiculous click-bait and so is this thread title.

Heh. That's why OSX and Linux are now dominant and nobody develops for Windows anymore. Oh wait, sixteen months have passed since Win8 launched and it hasn't lost significant desktop-OS market share to OSX or Linux.

Vista wasn't popular, but it certainly didn't "destroy" Windows. People didn't move to competing OSes, even if many stayed with XP. Developers didn't quit developing for Windows. In fact, its successor better implemented many of the concepts and turned out to be the most popular Windows version of all time. Win8 is like Vista--some great concepts in need of better execution.

And by that, you mean "one guy wrote a negative column."

 

Paul Thurrott isn't just some random guy...

 

He's also not Win8's "staunchest defenders." He's lukewarm on it (not an enthusiast, not a hater) and has been for a while. Nor is he plural.

 

As a desktop user that almost never uses Start, are there any drawbacks with Update 1?

 

Unfortunately the market shares doesn't share your views. Only 6% current market share in W8/8.1 isn't a good sign of acceptance compared to 50% to Windows 7 and most are switching over to Windows 7 instead of W8 to start and looking for Windows 7 again that should tell one how badly W8 is going.

Just look at the market share of users...more then 50% still on Windows 7 and less then 7% total for Windows after it's launch is rather pathetic for a O/S trying to replace Windows 7. W7 O/S took off faster the year it was released then Windows 8 and that should be telling something Windows 7 users wanted not something M$ wanted.

 

So... are there any drawbacks with Update 1?

 

From what I have seen, they are "bolting on" traditional Windows controls to ModernUI apps, but only on non-touchscreen devices. So now you'll have a yet-more-splintered user experience across devices. A drawback might be a familiarity with one style that won't be present on another device.

 

Windows 8 is selling into a shrinking market affected by factors that were in play long before it ever came out.

But we'd be beating a dead horse on this.

I do like that when I have a moderately not-bashing-Win8 thread it's locked immediately, but when other people just want to post wild Windows 8 rants HEY FREEDOMS

 

Well below Update 1 leaked screen shots. If this is what M$ calls listening to consumers then I give up on future Windows releases. It seems it is the end of an era for the company.

Gallery: Windows 8.1 Update 1 screenshots | The Verge

 

Sorry to say but to make a excuse that W8 was affect by other market forces is a bad analogy to start with M$ debacle was caused by their own hype that everyone would rush out and buy W8 and put it on the top seller again. NOT. W8 bashing more like those that tried to work with W8 with their software caused more headache then it help and so one wonders why people are so frustrated why didn't M$ listen to Tester and Preview users or IT people to get the product right - NO they wanted to sell Blunder ballamer pet project and wanted to be a Apple something of which they are not and should even try to be. Technology has become stabilized enough and has longevity to them then before and more are using SMART phone for and that is why PC sales are down but if one takes a carefully look PC are here to stay regardless of how one like to think otherwise. Maybe you might want to look closely at those that so called bash W8 are really saying and not just make up what you think they are saying.

 

Like I mentioned before the Market is ripped for a TAKEOVER by APPLE and guess what it will become the APPLE then microsoft.....as the predominate O/S.....If they don't start to listen really fast they are going to come crashing because of their own stupidity of "THINKING INSIDE THE BOX" mentality again.

 

I'm not sure what you are referring to, but those screenshots are mostly boring, and contain little that is new (other than those context menus in the Modern UI), but that was to be expected. This is one of those quick-fix updates to try and address a few of the most glaring issues, but I never expected this to be anything major. Thus, I don't quite see why this would tell us anything about what may or may not happen with Windows 9. I'm not saying that I have high hopes for Windows 9 necessarily, just that those screenshots make no difference, unless I am missing something.

 

Yes! Everyone who prefers a menu-based launcher, or who at least wants the option of a menu-based launcher, will flock to the OS that abandoned menu-based launchers (without the option for users to select a "classic UI" option including the menu-based launcher) thirteen years ago.

Also, people who hate the idea of using a tablet-style launcher on a non-touchscreen device will LOVE this:

 

Differences I see:

(1) Search button and power button on the start screen itself.
(2) Metro apps can be pinned to the taskbar.
(3) Metro apps bring up desktop-style "minimize" and "close" buttons in the top right when a mouse is used.
(4) Right-clicking a live tile brings up a menu on the tile to make changes instead of tablet-style controls on the bottom of the screen (that in the current 8.1 allow for the same changes).
(5) Sorting apps by name now has markers for each letter instead of just having everything in one long alphabetical list. This tweak IMO makes it easier to scan.

All of these are improvements over 8.1.0 in my opinion, particularly for keyboard-and-mouse users. None of them are a back-to-the-drawing-board redesign or a fundamental change in the UI, but who expects that from an x.x.1 update anyway?

 

Just to be clear: What I was trying to say was that I did not see any news relative to the changes coming in 8.1 Update 1 that had already been widely discussed, here and all over the 'net. And, yes, overall these changes represent improvements, sometimes substantially so, for M&KB users. Of course, those changes don't go far enough for my taste, but I fully agree that it would have been wildly unrealistic to expect anything substantially more than what we see.

 

it really is amazing how much more productive W8 is, both from the desktop improvements (e.g. native multi-display taskbar) to multitasking with the start screen (e.g. Windows Mail snapped side-by-side with the desktop or any other "app" for that matter). most of the confirmed 8.1.1 improvements will refine this dual-environment even more. i'll sometimes be working on the desktop and am surprised to continually find new ways of improving "productivity" by taking advantage of both environments. and let me just say the 'share' charm is awesome (not talking about sharing to social media). working with W8.1, office 2013 including lync, server 2012 and R2, exchange 2013, lync 2013, web apps, and, last but not least, WP8 provides such a uniform and comprehensive enterprise ecosystem. W9 is only going to build on this UI concept even more, and i look forward to the exploding heads.

/half srs troll

Sent from my Lumia 1520 using Tapatalk

 

Hard to tell, really, but I doubt it. Windows 8 is damaged goods, and cannot be saved anymore. If Windows 9 does not signal a return to sanity, then it is very hard to see how it can survive. Or the Windows franchise for that matter. Microsoft gets one OS screw-up forgiven every other time, but two in a row? That would not be pretty... In my opinion they need to try and do their best to make people forget that Windows 8 ever existed. But, we shall see. Their upcoming Build conference should give at least some clues to their intentions.

 

I think Windows 9 will draw on the same concept of Windows 8: a single OS that can be used primarily as a tablet OS, primarily as a desktop OS, or a mixture of both. But I think the execution of that concept in Windows 9 will be more mature, more refined, and more effective (for both desktop users and for tablet users). Much like how Win7 was a refinement of the concepts embodied in Vista.

Given OEMs jumping en masse onboard the convertible and slate bandwagon, I don't believe for a second that Windows 9 will be a retreat to being solely an operating system for keyboard and mouse only, traditional desktop and traditional laptops only.

I still think that something along the lines of Jay Machalani's concept of Windows 8.2 could make for a highly-successful Windows 9 for both touch and non-touch users.

 

Slightly off-topic, but at least that "slate bandwagon" is clearly a train to nowhere. Yes, many OEMs offer them, but nobody's buying. That's not Windows 8.x' fault, of course. Heck, even I would buy a Windows 8.x tablet tomorrow if anyone offered one that's worth spit. It just boggles the mind how anybody could be stupid enough to try and offer a pure tablet, for "professionals", even (yep, I'm looking at you, Surface Pro) in a 16:9 format, making it near-unusable in portrait mode. Somebody should tell these clowns that there still are people out there who do something other than watch movies on their computers or tablets. More generally speaking, for the life of me I just cannot understand where that 16:9 fixation in the PC industry is coming from. That format is bad enough on standard laptops and desktops, but on a tablet? This has got to be some sort of a secret joke that nobody gets...

 

I guess I'm in the minority then. I like Windows 8.

 

that's not the minority.

 

Seems to me that a Windows OS share in the single digits does qualify as a minority.

 

Pirx, i'd be willing to make a wager with you in doge that, of W8 users, the majority like it.

 

The 16:9 rant is totally unrelated to this thread.

If slates and convertibles weren't selling, companies like Lenovo (the most profitable Windows PC manufacturer) wouldn't be making them. Lenovo had no concerns with kicking Windows RT out of it its lineup after a couple months because those devices weren't selling. But for the past sixteen months, they've steadily increased and increased their convertible and slate lineup. They would not be doing this if the devices weren't selling. And they have much better data about what models sell than you do, no matter how confidently you make unsupported assertions like "nobody's buying."

 

Here we go with W8 supporters playing with numbers. While consumers in general hate W8 thereby making those who like it the minority those who have W8 seem to mostly like it. This is because the "minority" who like and bought into it from the get go or at a later point. You can not use circular logic to obfuscate the problem called Windows 8.

That is what I am referring too; they are boring and no real change to make Windows 8 palatable for KB&M desktop users. I am to say it politely underwhelmed by their response to "we are now listening" and the fixes they are providing, just more of the same and old hat with Windows 8. So to my point if this is their response with Update 1 then I have little to no hope for Windows 9 or beyond.

Edit;
Stop trying to fix metro! M$ needs to fix the desktop first and all issues. This is the primary reason most users will not go anywhere near Windows 8. Once this is fixed then tweak metro. As another user put it, stop putting more lipstick on the pig as it is not helping matters.

 

I don't think it's going too far at all. I don't know anyone who sings the praises of 8/8.1, it's not a popular O/S on tablets, and it is highly unpopular on PCs.

Windows 7 was quite refreshing to use after many unstable/flawed versions of Windows. 8.1 is an unmitigated disaster.

 

Thanks for repeating what I had said. Feel free to try and figure out why my post is indeed (tangentially, as I admitted) related to this thread.

I was talking about slates, not "slates and convertibles". Fact is, Windows slates are not selling. Compared to Android and iOS tablets, the numbers are miniscule, and barely register. The numbers could be better, however, if the hardware was more appropriate, see above.

You keep repeating this mantra, but that doesn't make it any more valid. There can be lots of reasons why Lenovo is doing what they are doing. And there's lots of companies that ended up posting losses on products, to the point of going belly-up, despite them having all those supposedly wonderful data.

 

The latest word from WZOR translated, the number one source of all Windows leaks. Take it with a grain of salt, but it's no secret that MS is aware of the lack of interest in W8.

-= WZor.Net =- -

 

Whoah, looks like they're really accelerating their schedule there. Shows the pressure they perceive themselves under. What it also shows is that Microsoft may be a lot less happy with what's going on in the Windows space, and a lot more eager to move on than our resident Win8 apologists. On the other hand, whether such a rush delivery is a good thing remains to be seen.

 

Seriously, there isn't much MS have to do to make the next Windows version a good product.

- A decent desktop interface made for those who love W7, including a customizable start menu.
- An updated touch interface.
- Loads of TOGGLE SWITCHES. Switch between start page/start menu, Windows button/no button, etc.

If you think about it, making a new version in 2 years instead of 3 sounds difficult, but given what people hate about W8 there's not much that needs to be fixed.
If they only had kept the RPEnabled registry switch from W8DP they wouldn't be in this mess. It shouldn't take 2 years to fix that.

It's doable for sure, but that won't stop MS from screwing up something again. And of course, MS will make more changes than that.

 

Well, yeah, if they make Windows 9 just a stopgap emergency release, then, yes, that should be doable. But, there's lots of issues that they should have worked on in order to modernize Windows. Those will probably not be addressed now. Like I said, they have lost years thanks to Sinofsky's intransigence. We are probably talking ten-figure losses here. Nice job. The man deserves a medal, from Apple, Google and friends...

By the way, I think the idea of a Start Screen that flies over a complete desktop (including open applications, etc.) that Mitlov had mentioned has merit, and provides a way to create a face-saving and functional hybrid between the Start Screen and the former Start Menu, if it's done right. That's a big "if" there, of course.

 

Well different people like different things, personally I find that a little annoying and have had the start screen set to still show most of the desktop and taskbar while still being able to scroll the start screen left and right to run apps from there.

IMO it would certainly be nice to have some more options for customization but perhaps it's not good business practice for MS to give people everything they want in one OS. Gotta save something to make the next version appealing so people will spend money to upgrade. While they have a monopoly on the market I feel they can get away with a lot but obviously don't want to rock the boat too much and start losing substantial market share as that would likely snowball MS into oblivion.

 

What do you miss in W8, besides the common ones like start menu and aero?

I'd like an updated control panel. It's a mess, and it gets worse with each new version since Vista. Some settings here and some there, and a mix of layouts from Windows 3, 4, 6 and 8.

 

Indeed, control panel needs some work. Aside from that, wireless network management was overall done better in Windows 7 in my opinion, not that it's bad in 8, just better in some regards in 7. Now, something I would like to actually see is a place where you can tweak some UI elements like window border thickness. The options was hidden under a ton of sub menus in windows 7 and it was probably a remnant of older days. In Windows 8, it's gone aside from a registry tweak.

 

I hate border padding with a passion!

 

Ahh, where to start? Let's start easy going to more difficult:
- Bring back and unify all of the desktop customization options we had in Windows 7. Feel free to update that user interface from the Windows 2000 days (which is where the current interface in Windows 7 is from...)
- A complete GUI interface to the Advanced Query Syntax for Windows Search, integrated into Explorer (you know, what we had in Vista, almost...) Oh, and bring back Search Connectors for Windows 7's Federated Search!
- Yes, clean up the Control Panel mess, but whatever you do, make sure that every single setting is available from the Desktop-based Control Panel! I don't ever want to see that Metro crap.
- More powerful DPI handling for multiple screens and high-DPI.
- Well, while we're at it, why not go all the way, to a vector-based, resolution independent desktop graphics subsystem?
- High-level file system (WinFS++), with integration of hardlinks/symbolic links in the UI. Essentially, turn the entire filesystem into a fully searchable relational database.
- Eliminate the need for reboots, for any reason, including Windows Updates
- Update and unify both OS and application settings storage in the registry so that at some point in the future (when all third-party applications play ball as well), I can log into any PC anywhere in the world, and have the exact same interface. This should also be done in such a way as to allow complete, clean uninstalls of applications.

Just a small selection, of course. As an aside, I can't help but cringe when I see those naïve comments along the lines of "But, but, if Microsoft hadn't introduced the ModernUI, then no significant changes or progress would have been possible, etc., blablah". That kind of blather is just about the most illiterate nonsense I ever see in the context of discussions of the merit of Windows 8 versus Windows 7.

 

While it's odd they took the entire customization panel out, They left the whole registry subfolder for it intact.
How to Change the Window Border Size in Windows 8

HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop\WindowMetrics

 

Thanks, I'm aware of it. That's one of the first things I change in the registry after a reinstallation, together with taskbar button width, adding shut down button in the desktop context menu, and set taskbar thumbnails delay to five seconds or something.

I run this file after installation, but some of it won't work for W8, I made it for W7. It's not complete, I have another file stored somewhere...

Code:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

;5000ms_Taskbar_Thumbnail_Delay_Time
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced]
"ExtendedUIHoverTime"=dword:00001388

; display custom background logon-logoff image (make sure less than 256kb)
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Authentication\LogonUI\Background]
"OEMBackground"=dword:00000001
; display custom background logon-logoff image (apply to all themes)
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\System]
"UseOEMBackground"=dword:00000001

;Never group taskbar buttons
[HKCU\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced]
"TaskbarGlomLevel"=dword:00000002

;No labels for (small) taskbar icons
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop\WindowMetrics]
"MinWidth"="38"

;Small_Icons_for_Taskbar
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced]
"TaskbarSmallIcons"=dword:00000001

;Taskbar_at_Top_of_Screen
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\StuckRects2]
"Settings"=hex:28,00,00,00,ff,ff,ff,ff,02,00,00,00,01,00,00,00,3e,00,00,00,2e,\
  00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,00,80,07,00,00,2e,00,00,00

;Turn_On_Always_show_all_taskbar_icons_and_notifcations
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer]
"EnableAutoTray"=dword:00000000
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer]
"EnableAutoTray"=-

;Hide Language Bar
[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\CTF\LangBar]
"ShowStatus"=dword:00000003