Windows 8 holiday sales in trouble?

And so it begins;

MacBook market share PLUMMETS as Chromebook trims Windows sales | Computerworld Blogs

Chromebooks' success punches Microsoft in the gut - Computerworld

Daring Fireball Linked List: Chromebook Sales vs. Web Traffic Share

Are Chromebooks killing off the Macbook? | Computerworld Blogs

https://twitter.com/stevecheney/status/417118260401025024

TBH I do not see Chromebook taking down M$ anything any time soon. But it does appear no one is falling for those "New Windows" commercials. That and consumers, in mass, are looking for an alternative...............

 

This is more about ChromeOS becoming a viable platform (and good for Google in that respect; more competition is better for all consumers) and less about any one particular other competing OS. Heck, several of those articles imply that ChromeOS is hurting OSX more than it's hurting Windows right now. Nothing about these articles is an indictment of Windows 8 specifically, unless you feel that anything short of a Microsoft monopoly is a failure for Microsoft.

Trying to turn this into an attack on Microsoft or the Windows 8 OS specifically ("And so it begins...no one is falling for those 'New Windows' commercials. That and consumers, in mass, are looking for an alternative") is a whole heck of a lot of spin.

And setting aside click-bait headlines, ChromeOS is still a very minor player. From your first article.

(The 10% and 21% of sales for ChromeOS noted by NPD are in particular subset of the market--certain enterprise applications and educational institutions--not the market as a whole).

A good counter-point: Forbes: If everyone is buying Chromebooks, who is using them?

 

A Chromebook is like $250. That's half the price of an iPad. Why wouldn't someone who wants a really cheap "tablet with a keyboard" get one?

Note that the Chromebook Pixel isn't mentioned at all, and doesn't appear to be a top seller. Maybe because it costs $1300.

News Flash: things that are cheap sell better than things that cost more

I had a thread highlighting that, but it got locked. But thank you for reiterating it.

 

The Acer C720 Chromebook actually starts at $199. That's less than the base price of the Nexus 7 ($229)...and it offers an 11.6" screen and a keyboard. Yeah, cheap, simple, malware-resistant things sell well (especially to schools outfitting computer labs with cheap internet-oriented machines).

It may seem I'm piling on ChromeOS. I'm not. I welcome more competition to the industry. The more competition there is, the better ALL companies products are as a result. And while ChromeOS isn't right for me, it's a great option for some other people.

 

The idea here is not so much that the market for M$ software has all of a sudden turned around. If this happens it will do so over a period of time. The point is for this to happen movement of the status quo has to change. While small this is just that, a change...............

 

Chromebooks went on sale June 15, 2011, about fifteen months prior to the release of Windows 8. Google's been working hard to build their desktop OS for two-and-a-half years now. And, largely due to super-cheap hardware, they're having some success, particularly with enterprise, education, and super-cheap sales on Amazon. But your title and original post made this less about ChromeOS and more about Windows 8 (hell, the title of this thread doesn't even mention ChromeOS), and that's just not what's going on here.

I mean, really, there is absolutely nothing here that supports the "Windows 8 holiday sales in trouble" thread title.

 

The fact that it is not the overwhelmingly prevelant OS is the reason for the statement it is in trouble, Name a time when M$ was not the prevelant system/OS sales wise?

 

Wait, so because ChromeOS is 20% of enterprise/education sales, and because ChromeOS is now one-third-of-one-percent of internet usage in the US, you're arguing that Windows is no longer the most prevalent desktop OS?

 

Netbooks. 2007. Netbook makers really wanted Linux to drive it home for them, and netbooks had that potential, since they were so weak Windows Vista did not run well on them (netbooks were a catalyst for MS extending XP's life). Tons of netbooks went out the door with Linux. Tons of Linux netbooks ended up being returned or getting Windows loaded on them. Within two years the netbook market went virtually all-Windows, and by 2011 the original netbook concept was basically gone. Chromebooks are essentially a "Netbook 2.0" concept; a bit bigger, still trading off poor local specs for cloud functionality. I'm curious how this will do in the long-term; after the honeymoon is over, a few months from now, will these Chromebook buyers still be happy with their purchase? Will it end up in a closet?

 

Not then over all OS, agreed I thought the first lost and links stated this but I'll point it out again it is not the #1 seller at consumer retail, in possibly only some markers. But again we will take points out of the original OP context to try an make a point. I am stating this may be the indicative start of trouble for M$. Again show me a point, other than tablet, where by as a desktop/production PC in any market M$ has been outsold before?

Right but they did not outsell, this is my point. I am not saying where the market will end, if I knew that I'd be rich. My point only is this may be an indicator that many have been saying could be coming down the pike....................

Edit; (apologize for link to a link but did not want to double post)
Here is a link showing some minor growth for the OS but look at the other growth, not away from M$ but..............

http://forum.notebookreview.com/win...-8-january-2014-market-share.html#post9511209

 

There's a big difference between not being the best seller at Amazon.com and not being the best seller overall in consumer retail.

Also, because there's like five models of Chromebook and about a hundred models of Windows PC, it's harder for any one Windows PC to climb a best-selling-model list. The sales are spread over a larger different number of models, making each model less likely to receive the "best-selling laptop" title on Amazon.com. But that doesn't mean that "Chromebooks" as a whole are outselling "Windows PCs" as a whole.

Why exclude tablets? The iPad is a bigger threat to Windows PC than ChromeOS is. Hell, most analysts agree that the iPad revolution is primarily what's driving the collapse in PC sales.

Yeah, and notice that ChromeOS isn't even listed separately on that pie chart. Chromebooks sure don't appear to be "outselling" Windows machines.

 

I exclude tablets as we walk into non productive and consumption only/primarily systems with android and the like. Tablets, as is well known and the drive behind windows 8, has been eating somewhat into PC sales. This is no disputed for consumption usage.

Again, I am not stating Chromebook or anything else has taken over sales from M$ just that the battle is heating up a bit in the alternative markets. Consumers were not driven to M$ alternatives for a desktop in droves before, so be it at Amazon or elsewhere. Now there could be several reasons including no low cost Win7 options. What is not under speculation is systems with Win7 will stop sales under M$'s current time line this year.

IMHO if Win 8.2 is not released before then, and it is a viable desktop alternative in consumers eyes, it could be a huge nail in the M$ coffin. Once that to pull out will take a huge crow bar...................................

Edit; had a new years party with 20+ of the kids friends here, 24-30 year olds. I mentioned windows 8.x and possible 8.2 as a positive and you would thought I killed the party. Had to quickly get things back on track. Even I do not have that kind of distain and they are only casual users. I should add the comments used by them if posted would flag this entire thread, I even felt they were a bit overboard but a little alcohol will do that I guess.........

 

Plenty of people use Windows PCs for consumption and plenty of people use iPads for productivity. They're extremely common computing devices in the legal industry. The market as a whole doesn't draw a bright line between "production" and "consumption" devices as you have. And you can't talk about declining PC sales without talking first and foremost about the iPad. The iPad is the primary driver in the decline in PC sales, and that has nothing to do with the Win7/Win8 distinction you're focused on.

A third of one percentage of US internet usage is "a huge nail in the M$ coffin"? When the device does nothing besides access the internet? You're seeing what you want to see.

And Chromebooks, given their low prices and very limited model selection, have always done well on Amazon.com's sales charts despite being a drop in the bucket of overall computing device sales. In January 2013 as well, a Chromebook was the best-selling laptop on Amazon. Doesn't mean Chromebooks overtook Windows machines in 2013 in the overall market though, right? Amazon's top selling laptop doesn't run Windows or Mac OS, it runs Linux | ZDNet

 

No it will be a while before anything takes overall market from Windows. Again I state and realize that fully. What I am saying is the markers forecast by a lot of people are starting to show. Most avalanches are started by small movements and it is much harder to stop than prevent one.........................

 

Not saying chromebooks in particular. Again that ANY model outsells a Windows model is a marker, the fact it happened over the holiday season is the reason for the title and specific question mark. Not that they have lost the war yet but that other options are biting in significantly enough that for the model/cost etc. another option outsold those M$ based machines. This lets other OEM's know that for a cost structure possibly other models might benefit from a Windows competitor.

 

But the same thing happened in the 2012 Christmas season and 2013 wasn't exactly year of the Chromebook.

 

Read the articles, no it was not the exact same thing. in 1/2013 one book was claimed to be the top seller, not number one and two. The second one is more chromebook(s) not just a chromebook. and agreed while not the year it was a good one up from 2012 numbers. so again sorry as I said but it is a start of the slide but will it continue (and where would it), we shall see.......................

 

See.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................. what? That you'll move the goalposts again?

Waiting for next January when this exact same thing happens again and "THIS TIME GUYS REALLY (50 periods)"

FYI, Linux has been "going to take over" since what.. 1994? The people who said that have since had kids who are now in college. They are still waiting.

As long as MS keeps trying to run up an avalanche of products that reduce the need for a PC, their market share will continue to shrink, just because of how the market works. If you want to slippery slope this, sure, one day MS will not have some kind of perceived dominance in the PC industry. And fossil fuels will be gone, and we'll all have 99 cent high powered reliable LED light bulbs powered by solar panels and wind turbines, with landscaping done with real imported martian rocks. And what a utopia it shall be.

Tell me if I'm wrong next ye... dec.. uh... we both know it will happen (50 periods).

 

Sorry about the periods. I tend to do that from the old BBS days. Just meant the end of a post in the early days of ANSI only screens. Never go to that extreme but yes. Also we used to abbreviate almost everything, that took a long time to get over but I did eventually.

 

I was on many BBSs and ran my own for several years. I do not remember ever seeing the periods thing. I see it when people want to instigate arguments.

 

I as well, Around here we used it all the time. I ran the Super Sport Modem bbs locally. Ran off Geoworks and a 286 with 3 megs of ram. Ah the old days of running a BBS off of a ram drive with a 40 meg hdd to back it all up on.

Edit; around here to incite etc. we used "!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" to end the convo. my guess then it was all local nomenclature as nothing yet was "World Wide". Had to edit too as force of habit I had too many periods.

 

Hey look, another wildly successful Chromebook

Worst product flops of the year - Slide Show - MarketWatch

 

I'm not sure that a defective charger on one model of laptop tells you anything about the viability of that laptop's OS. Windows machines have had their fair share of recalls too.

 

being as they had 145,000 units sold even after pulling them from the shelves early on is significant. That there was a recall, well blame HP not Chromebook.

 

You think so? Well, then I've got news for you: Linux has taken over. Android is a Linux OS. I am fairly sure that, if you rank operating systems by the number of devices they control, then Linux will be far ahead of everything else. The only holdout is the classical PC hardware in the desktop and laptop form factors. If Microsoft keeps screwing up and damaging their Windows franchise the way they did with Win8, then that's only going to be a matter of time as well. Certainly before a company such as, say, Adobe goes through the contortions necessary to shoehorn something like Photoshop into the limited ModernUI environment that nobody* wants to use anyway, they'd be much better off developing a Linux version.

*Preemptive explanation for the contextually challenged: The "nobody" used here is a figure of speech, also known as hyperbole. Such language constructs are often used by writers to emphasize a point. They are not meant to be taken literally, but in good writing they should contain at least a kernel of truth. In the above case, the writer is expressing the fact that there is limited interest to use the environment in question for complex professional applications of the type indicated. Hope this helps.

 

So you agree that touchscreen-oriented OSes have taken over? It took a tablet-and-smartphone-oriented UI to make Linux succeed with the mass market after how many years of languishing as a niche product? So you agree touch-friendly UIs are the way of the future? Glad we're all on the same page now

Preemptively insulting other forum users and referring to yourself in the third person? Nicely done.

 

Nonsense, which I won't dignify with any further elaboration.

Now this one is fascinating. Here's a riddle for you: Who exactly am I "insulting", and in which way do you think I am insulting them? Figuring that one out should be delightful. By all means, let us know your answer.

 

Wow I just read in this thread that MS is planning 8.2? I read that MS may bring back the Start Menu? If so that would be two service packs for Windows 8.

If they do indeed bring back the Start Menu, what a disaster Windows 8 has become for MS, more so than Windows Vista. I do like Windows 8 but it's strictly for consumption and the email, news, sports and weather apps but even so my iPad one upped the reason why I was using W8 in the first place. Yahoo Mail and Weather and the built in Mail Apps in iOS 7 are just sublime.

I think MS was way too late to the game and it's a reason why W8 has been viewed more as a nuisance. The other problem wrt Windows 8 Apps is they don't feel like they have been optimized for use for Windows 8. If I compare Tunein Radio to the same App on Android and iOS there is no comparison. The Windows 8 App version feels clunky, outdated and just unstable compared to the tablet counterparts. I have run into several other Apps i've tried with similar results.

Also if MS had just streamlined the way the user interacts with the OS and had given the ability for the end user to turn things off they did not like and allowed MS to see that data on how users use the OS then W8 may have been viewed in a much better light.

I tried W8.1 and I thought W8 was slightly better than the two options. W8.1 did bring some improvements but took some steps back so there was some trade off. I will try W8.2 if the rumors turn out to be true.

I'm sure MS is telling their software engineers, hurry up with W9.

 

Yep. By now there's even some rumors saying that this may happen very soon, as in Q1 '14. Personally I don't think that's realistic, but who knows. In any case, it seems likely that Microsoft is about to make a full 180-degree reversal, including restoring a full Start Menu, and allowing WinRT applications to run on the desktop, meaning there is no need to use that atrocious ModernUI interface at all. In effect, this would mean that ModernUI has been abandoned.

There is no doubt by now that Windows 8 has been the greatest disaster to hit the Windows franchise, ever. Hence the pressure on Microsoft to fix things fast. If they cannot recover the vast amounts of ground, and good will, that they have lost, the damage will be permanent. At this point it's not even clear if the clock has not run out for them. Their half-hearted attempt with Windows 8.1 just lost them even more time.

Interesting remark. That reminds me of the inanity of counting apps in the respective app stores for iOS, Android, and WinRT. Those apps are simply not comparable. Even between iOS and Android there is a substantial gap, with many high-quality iOS apps not available on Android at all. This even though Android does offer more capabilities in some respects than iOS does. Now, if you're looking at the Windows Store, the picture is simply pathetic. Pretty much none of the most important/most popular apps are available there. So what if there's like 100,000 apps in the Windows Store, if 99.9+% of them are pure crap.

 

For some reason I see with Win 8 there was little to no influence from customer research. More like Ballmer saying "make it so" and everyone did.

 

Ballmer may not be a very likeable guy, and he may have his faults (see below), but he is not the one to point the finger at regarding the Win8 disaster. The driving force behind the actual design blunders in Windows 8 was Sinofsky, and it was Sinofsky's personality, his "my way or the highway"-style that had made matters so much worse. It was Sinofsky's responsibility to integrate customer feedback into the design of Windows 8. It was Sinofsky who pretended to do so by running his famous Windows 8 blog. Ballmer's main mistake was to wait so long before firing the guy. Sinofsky should have been shown the door right after the first preview candidate, when he not only ignored the feedback from customers, but, in effect, gave them the finger, and made matters worse.

 

His fault was not just holding on the Sinofsky too long but to back his play to the end (IE. right out the door)...................

 

If everything is indeed true regarding W8.2 then what an about face. And no I don't think it's too late regarding Windows. In fact MS could gain from this because customers will see that they can admit they were wrong and they responded to what the customer wants.

The Xbox One platform was a perfect example. They pushed a new paradigm, the masses objected and they did a 180 and MS was able to turn a negative into a positive. Sales are on pace with the PlayStation 4. Prior to the about face it was projected they would suffer huge losses to Sony.

Yeah I agree with that. I own both Android and iOS tablets and iOS Apps tend to be of better quality and better optimized for the iOS devices than the Android counterparts. Part of that is due to the fragmentation of Android and up until recently most successful Android devices were phones. That appears to be changing with Google tablets finding success along with Amazon's Android based tablets.

 

If people are right that they're removing the metro UI from 8.2, the OEMs just got sold up the river. Slates like the newly-introduced Thinkpad 8 (a Bay Trail 1080p 8" slate) are going to be basically unusable if the desktop is the only UI option. Same with convertible tablets in tablet mode.

I think they're going to continue to refine the user experience on both the metro and the desktop side of things, but they're not going to pull the plug on the former. Windows OEMs are going "all in" with the convertible concept with both their desktops and their laptops, which means that the OEMs see profit in these designs (on the other hand, the OEMs saw no profit in Windows RT, so they had no qualms about pulling the plug on that experiment).

 

Just to make sure: I am not saying that the "Metro UI" will be removed. I realize that my statement "In effect, this would mean that ModernUI has been abandoned" could be (mis-)interpreted that way, but that's not what I was trying to say. Apart from the fact that I think chances are zero that Microsoft would outright remove that interface from Windows 8.x, I think that this would in fact be a terrible idea, for the reasons you are alluding to: I agree that this interface has its place when operating touch-only devices, even though I think that Microsoft could have done a much better job at making the traditional desktop more usable in touch-only mode.

 

I don't see them abandoning the current UI in Windows 8.2 as it's way too late to rewrite all that code. They will probably add the Start Menu from Windows 7 and allow users to pick which UI they want to use. Which is exactly what they should have done from the beginning.

My idea would have been a workable solution for Windows. Windows 8 Pro (traditional UI). Windows 8 Home (metro UI). That's it two versions of Windows.

 

Having the user choose between a "classic UI" and "dual mode UI" makes sense to me, and you can see they're headed in that direction already with 8.1 with the "boot to desktop" and "disable charms" options.

Making one UI the only UI for Windows Home and Student, and the other the only UI for Windows Professional, though, doesn't make any sense. Are Alienware 17s going to ship with Windows Professional and Thinkpad Yogas going to ship with Windows Home and Student? That doesn't make any sense. There are touchscreen business-class and touchscreen consumer-class devices, and traditional business-class and traditional consumer-class devices.

 

I agree. There's no reason not to offer both UIs as options for all SKUs. That's what they should have done from the start: Give people the choice to use the interface they feel most comfortable with.

 

Why should Blunder ballamer do so he already blunder and never admitted to the stupidity of it. All was so easy they couldn't get their head out where the sun don't shine. Make a Desktop setup and Metro installer where one or installer as I mentioned in the past can install one or the other and have Aero as well I like Aero and its a great feature something I thought they really put their mind into but unfortunately they want to make the buyers bend over and take it up the ))**)*& because were so stupid and don't know how to use the O/S.

 

Stormjumper....I know how you feel but I have observed that most people are computer illiterate and that's what Blunder ballamer knew and why he did not come out with choices for installing Win8 in different configurations. Unless it's installed by OEM which saves the computer stupids the decision making. Remember the people that use this forum are, for the most part not computer stupids, but are knowledgeable computer people. Those types would be able to make a decision on which OS to install but we are greatly outnumbered.

 

Dear lord, sir, use a comma! Or a semicolon, or a period. I had to read that sentence about five times before I could understand what you were saying.

 

i was confused by the number of grawlixes till i realized how specific he was being...

 

That goes against two ideas. The first is MS has been trying, perhaps badly, to reduce feature creep and windows full of checkboxes. It's just too much junk to deal with. Two completely different Start techniques is a lot of extra "stuff" users need to care about, unnecessarily. Of course in simplifying the experience, tweakers get shafted. Oh well, can't please everyone.

The second is MS wants to push the new ModernUI Start screen as part of their App Store strategy. It doesn't scream "confidence" when the centerpiece of their whole ModernUI push becomes optional and disable-able. By forcing users to a single Start screen, MS tells developers "your app will potentially end up on a user's primary visible screen, you want to code ModernUI apps with live tiles and get us our cut!!" A horribly biased idea, but it won't negatively affect all users the same.

MS clearly has backed down on some fronts. The App Store, which was originally "WIN8 METRO ONLY" has plenty of desktop apps. Win8.1 can start to the desktop.

 

Ok, so... just have ONE checkbox in Win 8 = "use legacy style OS". Done. Then in the legacy OS you can have all the check boxes. Problem solved.

 

Supporting an old UI and a new UI doesn't say good things about your new UI.

But if it makes you feel better, simply buy a ... Lenovo?

 

This does not work well for the general consumer going to a B&M. At BB the cheapest Lenovo on sale is $601 for a 3rd gen Intel laptop, and that is on sale. Consumers looking for cost savings are getting killed being forced to go to Lenovo or other methods of obtaining Windows 7 on their machines. Now if it were an issue of the OS being cheaper on any hardware and being equally available on all that hardware then I would agree with the purchasing choices being fair for consumers.

You also have to remember, while now a TBD date, eventually Windows 7 will not be for sale while Windows 8 will be and the same can be said of support. So for a comfortable UI you are asking the user to loose support earlier? So again how fair is this to the general consumer?

As far as supporting the new UI. It was mentioned early on that Modern UI was not meant as a replacement for the desktop. Maybe this is why we all falsely believed our beloved traditional IO with the system was safe. We all thought, at least IMHO, we were getting dual purpose machines. We could forego a second consumption only tablet. We would all be able to work easily in one mode or the other with instantaneous ability to switch between them. But what did we get?

 

It's not just the start menu though. They've borked the desktop back to Windows 98 level. You can't even change the font color for window titlebar text for crying out loud!

 

It doesn't have to be a Lenovo. All business/professional-class systems, by all manufacturers, are being offered with Windows 7. In the case of Dell, Windows 7 is the default for all of these systems.

That's a wildly distorted representation of the situation, and you know it. This is about not wantonly removing capabilities that Windows has had for the last couple of major versions. This is about allowing people to continue using the interface paradigms they were used to from the previous Windows version, the way Microsoft has always done this, up until Win8.

 

That's how I feel about it too. With my Duo 11, it's completely replaced the need for a separate media tablet with me. Yet I can still use it just fine for desktop productivity work. I didn't like how 8.0 worked on my Vaio F23 (traditional DTR laptop)--I took my Vaio F23 from 8.0 back to 7 after a month or so--but with the refinements of 8.1, that's no longer an issue for me and I've happily upgraded my F23 to 8.1.

Also, the majority of Android users I know use some sort of third-party modification or other for their UI to tweak it to their particular tastes, and most consider that a benefit of the OS, not a sign that it's broken.

 

Apples and oranges. Many Windows users, throughout the years, have also used various third-party modifications (such as WindowBlinds, ObjectDesktop, Rainlendar, docks, etc., etc.) for their UI to tweak it to their particular tastes, without seeing this as an indication of a broken UI. Putting a Start Menu back into Windows 8, however, is a completely different matter. And, no, not "everything has to be built in". Feel free to look up any one of the dozens of posts in which this has been explained before.