Windows 8 holiday sales in trouble?

The single most customized part of the Android interface is the launcher. The start menu and start screen are Windows' launcher...so no, comparing customization of Android and customization of Win8 isn't an apples-and-oranges comparison at all.

 

Customization, customization, customization. Not that hard to figure out.

List of features removed in Windows 8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

This is a remarkably short list. Some people would have us think there's hundreds of pages of removed things.

DVD Maker? CardSpace? The network map that was hardly ever even remotely accurate? Are we mad they took these out? Did many people even notice?

I'm irked they took out the advanced appearance settings button, but I figured out the registry way to do the same things, and I'm not going to construct an online persona hating on MIKKKRO$$$$$HAFT LOSE-BLOW$$$$$$ about it.

 

Just read what I wrote. With any luck you'll figure it out. Apples and oranges.

 

Quit pretending that everyone who disagrees with you can't "figure out" what you're saying, like you're some neutral arbiter of Truth(TM). I understood exactly what you were arguing. I just disagreed with it.

And not only have launchers been a prime target of third-party software in Android, but they have in previous versions of Windows too. Dell Dock and Vaio Gate are two third-party launchers that spring to mind.

 

[Sigh...] No, I am not an "arbiter of the truth", but you will have to allow me to decide, all by myself, what it is that I am saying, if you please.

No, you did not, and I am tired of this crap. End of discussion.

 

Unless you're a moderator, your job is to stop posting in a thread when you choose, not to tell other posters when they should leave a discussion.

And yes, I did understand what you are arguing. It's actually possible for someone to "understand" you and still think you're wrong.

 

Alright, let's do this very slowly, hoping that you will be able to grasp it this way: I have decided that I will abandon this discussion. You, of course, are free to discuss whatever you want, with whomever you want, whenever you want. Have I made myself clear now?

 

Gartner Says Worldwide PC Shipments Declined 6.9 Percent in Fourth Quarter of 2013

Windows 8 is mentioned in one footnote.

Gartner: 2013 had worst-ever drop in PC sales - MarketWatch

Again, reiterating that PC sales in general are facing a strong downturn due to tablets and smartphones. Windows 8 isn't a catalyst, it's simply been caught in the avalanche.

 

Really? Can you explain your reasoning for this interesting conclusion? Certainly the material you quoted contains nothing that would allow you to come to such a result. My guess here is that you're just guessing.

Funny, too, you would say that, given this quote from your article:

Nice contrast, isn't it? So, for some reason, "Apple PCs" (desktops and laptops) are selling like hotcakes, but Windows PC sales are tanking. This despite the typically higher price of the Macs, mind you. For some reason, those Macs apparently are not affected by this "avalanche" of yours. Now, why would that be?

P.S.: Just to be clear, I am not in possession of a crystal ball such as yours, either, so I do not claim to have a complete causal explanation of what we are observing here. However, understand that the whole point of Windows 8 was not just to not alienate their customers, or to not drive customers away. The job that was at hand was to reignite interest in PCs, and to lead to an upturn. The job was to make people want to upgrade their PCs, among other things because of a new, attractive operating system. It is entirely clear that Windows 8 has failed, miserably, on that front. It also seems to be the case that the big bet on touch as an attractor has not panned out, either. Sure, some people like, and even want this capability, but many others have no interest, at least not on traditional laptops and desktops.

 

Actually, Windows 98 wasn't too bad. If you want to compare 8 to something, think of AOL:



Anyway, for me at least, I'm waiting until Microsoft actually fixes this GUI problem back to something that more closely resembles a traditional desktop. Not necessarily an exact clone of 7's GUI, but something... more appropriate for a computer. Until then, I'm sticking with 7 only because of my gaming habit, whereas my other computer are full-on Linux. At least I can choose a functional GUI that's right for me.

 

That's some fine logic you got there. By that logic, people should have complained even less if Microsoft had just removed the desktop entirely. "Only one single feature removed, so that's even less of a change than the one going from Win2k to XP, so what do you want?" Excellent logic, really...

 

It's not my conclusion. Ask Gartner where *they* came up with their conclusion. Again, Windows 8 is never mentioned as "why people don't buy PCs." They are very specific to attribute that to alternate devices. And this has been true now since before Windows 8 was released.

2011 Was the Second-Worst Year for U.S. PC Sales in History - Arik Hesseldahl - News - AllThingsD

(Just so you know, Windows 8 came out in late 2012)

Since I own three Macs, I believe I can give some first-hand reasoning here. Macs are.. well.. cool. They are thin, fast, light, and Retina screens are sexy as heck. The PC laptop alternatives are also terrible for hardware reasons. Did I buy a $2600 Retina 15" because "Windows 8 sucks?" No. I got it because it's awesome and I have disposable income. Who knows, maybe one day I will purchase a license for Windows 8.1 for it. Should the need arise. (since Office 2011 is horrible)

Do you have any other questions about the purchases of the upper middle class?

 

Mac sales have indeed been on the decline. "Macs appear to be getting hit hard by iPad cannibalization, as well as continued weakness in the PC market...Macs are suffering the same troubles as Windows-based PCs"

Apple's Mac sales down in July, to slide 5 percent this quarter | Apple - CNET News!

 

Show me a quote. Simple request. I don't want to see your speculation as to why they do or do not mention stuff, I want to see a quote from Gartner (or IDC, if you like) that directly says what you claim their conclusion is.

You respond to the newest data by quoting stuff that's six months old. Cool.

 

EDIT: IDC reports Mac sales being down during the same quarter. Even if Gartner is right for Q4, it's contrary to the steady decline the Mac division has been suffering for the past year or so, in which iOS devices have been cannibalizing Mac devices. So either the Apple division continued its decline in Q4 or it had a temporary uptick during a couple years where it's been on decline. Either way, Macs aren't selling hand-over-fist.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9245332/Mac_sales_estimates_for_Q4_are_all_over_the_map

 

Hmm, interesting. Well, it seems we really don't know, and will have to wait for Apple's report at the end of the month.

 

We don't know for Q4 2013, and I think the huge discrepancy between IDC and Gartner's numbers is interesting. But we do know for other quarters in the past year or so that the overall trend for Macs has been downward, as the iPad cannibalizes more and more Mac users.

 

U.S. PC Shipments Shrank in 2011 for First Time in a Decade - Bloomberg

In fact, not only were PC sales bad in 2011, but guess who Bloomberg expected to save the day... wait for iiiiiitttt....

Not only were PC sales bad before Windows 8 shipped, but at least one organization felt that Windows 8 was going to *help* the recovery.

If you are still living under some sort of cloud that keeps telling you that small mobile devices have not annihilated PC sales, and Windows 8 caused a downturn in PC sales a year before it came out, then I don't know what to tell you.

Windows 8 Did Not Cause PC Sales Slump - InformationWeek

Don't blame Windows 8 for slumping PC sales - Apr. 17, 2013

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/16/technology/dells-profit-falls-on-slowing-pc-sales.html?_r=0

(Yeah, Apple's sales dropped over the last several quarters as well, the uptick is likely due in part to being first to market with Haswell laptops with insane battery life.)

 

^^^ Well, one explanation for Apple's sales luck might be simply because it doesn't have Windows 8 on it.

 

Except since Win8 came out, Mac sales have declined pretty much every quarter (I think every quarter) but this one. And while Gartner says Mac sales are up this quarter, IDC says they're down once again. It's not like people suddenly discovered that Macs don't have OSX during the fifth quarter after Win8 went on sale.

If your theory was correct, Mac sales should have been steadily improving since October 2012. They're not; they've been trending downward.

 

It's fun to try to prove a negative, but just as Macs don't come with Windows 8, they also don't come with nine inch nails sticking out of the keys. Maybe that's why people buy Macs? I dunno.

U.S. Mac Sales Grow 28.5% in Holiday Quarter, PC Market Suffers Worst Decline Ever [Updated] - Mac Rumors

If you look at the graph there, you can see that *since Windows 8 came out* Apple lost nearly 6% which they have not fully regained yet. So..

Again, Apple was first to market with Haswell systems. They were also first to market with a mass produced 2880x1800 laptop. They also did a price drop conveniently in the last quarter, with a 13" Retina now at $1300. I dare say that for the specs, a MacBook Pro Retina is a decent value. For the moment. With 3K laptops coming out from Lenovo and others, and Haswell all around, soon Apple won't have that tech edge anymore, and Lenovo's offerings will undercut Apple, guaranteed.

 

None of the stuff you quoted above this answers my question in any way. I did not ask for quotes of random ramblings. I asked for a quote that expressed the conclusion that Windows 8 has had nothing to do with the fortunes of the PC industry. Note that I was being generous there, since initially you claimed to obtain this conclusion from an article that contained absolutely nothing that would support this. So I allowed you to find any quotes from the sources we had discussed, and you come back with random stuff, all of which, likewise, says nothing about this question. Thanks, you made my point.

You are quoting an article expressing hope in a positive impact of Windows 8 that was published more than ten months before Windows 8 was released? You're going to have to explain that one to us. Or is this some sort of a joke?

I wonder, have you even read those sources? Here's an example from your first one:

Maybe I should re-iterate what my position is in this matter: Like any sane person, I am not advancing the idiotic hypothesis that the downturn in the PC market has been caused exclusively by Windows 8. You may want to stop wasting time and space bashing that silly straw man. What I am arguing against is the naïve, blue-eyed nonsense of claiming, on the other hand, that Windows 8 has nothing to do with what we have been seeing the last one and a half years or so. This may be hard to grasp for some, but reality is not usually as simple as that. I will add that there is no serious observer of the industry, not a single one, that would not agree with my position on this. This includes the management of Microsoft, by the way.

But, hey, you could call up Microsoft, and deliver a strong "stay the course" message to them. Roll back the changes they made in 8.1, and go back to the more pure Windows 8, maybe; hire back Sinofsky, perhaps. Why don't you do that, and see what they say...

 

I don't think any significant amount of the general populace put off new computers because "Windows 8 is on it." As shown, Apple took a dive. I don't see the mass exodus from MS from the OEMs. I don't see system76.com "taking off" anywhere. Dell still has like what.. ONE.. linux laptop? How many does Lenovo have? HP? I think the people who are avoiding new computers simply based on the OS it ships with are stubborn and foolish.

What I also don't think is that Windows 8 was going to help the PC sales situation. It wasn't going to be an OH MY GOD I NEED THAT OS LET ME BUY A LAPTOP JUST FOR IT situation. To think so is silly, and yeah, some people thought this. Touchscreens? Meh.. They are cute but the masses have clearly spoken, touchscreen laptops aren't high on the "must have" list.

It's bad enough to have mobile devices chewing up market share, but the PCs of the recent past have been their own worst enemy; a circa 2010 i5 is still a perfectly usable device. Heck, many people are still rockin' the Core 2 Duos. The graphs that show the NOW computers being better than the THEN computers aren't all that exciting anymore. Many people don't care that their three hour battery life could be 10 hours. Throw in a good economic recession for good measure, and gee, look at that, the people with PCs are pretty happy with what they have, and if they have some extra money, buying an iPad is a much simpler and useful purchase.

 

Uhmm, no, most of Dell's business class and some XPS (gaming) laptops are available with Linux. Some of them can be had with either RedHat or Ubuntu. Probably close to a dozen models or so overall. I did a quick check from my Premier account, and found eight models with two clicks, but there's probably more. Same goes for their desktops. And I won't even go into the server side of Dell's business in this forum...

Heck, I just went to Best Buy of all places, and it turns out they offer six laptops with Linux pre-installed!

I think you clearly do not know enough about "people", and their usage scenarios specifically, to make such an assessment.

P.S.: I checked some more, and it turns out I was wrong: There's lots more Dell laptops that are available with at least Ubuntu preinstalled. You can go here for a list for Ubuntu. If you drill down, you'll probably find of the order of a hundred or more laptop models, from all major manufacturers, that can be ordered with Linux preinstalled.

P.P.S.: Edited to remove some harsh comments.

 

Pirx, you often bring up good points, but keep up the backhand insults and snarky retorts and we'll have to give you a mandated NBR vacation. A condescending tone and general disregard of the opinions of others does not foster good discussion. Consider this your last warning.

Right, now everyone, let's back on topic and avoid any personal attacks. Thanks.