Windows Rot - the Causes

If there's one big, long-term difference between Windows and Linux that I've noticed, it is that no matter how careful you are about maintaining a Windows system, it will eventually slow down and become sluggish and more prone to errors. "Bloated" registry? "Bloated" design? No, really, why does Windows rot occur? Is it some fundemental design flaw?

 

As far as I can tell, a large part of it is due to the registry. You have one global sandbox for every application to read and write anything they like into. When showing the start menu, the system has to trawl through the registry, figure out the several different locations that might be able to contribute to it, and look up each entry. When a file is shown, it has to look through the list of literally thousands of registered filetypes, to be able to determine which icon to show, and which application to use when opening it.
Other factors might be that Windows is often forced to keep countless different versions of the same files running side by side to avoid versioning problems in applications. Obviously, when an application tries to load "whatever.dll", it takes longer if the system has to first scan through the 500 dll files it's able to locate, then find the 10 that are all called "whatever.dll", then figure out which one is the correct version, and load that.

 

There's also the fact that the Windows registry doesn't always get cleaned up when programs are uninstalled, leaving lots of broken associations that just add up over time.

CCleaner seems to help keep Windows bloat in check (it's not 100% perfect, but, before I finally said screw it and reinstalled XP, it got my boot time down from 5 minutes to about 3 minutes on a 3-year-old XP installation).

 

3 minutes? Do you use Norton, or have programs launch on boot?

 

I think your assertion that "no matter how careful you are" is wrong, and the reason people develop problems. If you've got issues, I guarantee you haven't been as careful as you should/could've been. I've never had a problem with a Windows machine (same goes for Linux, for that matter); all I've ever used are free programs to keep my Windows systems humming along. That, and like many experienced users, I'm careful about what goes into my computers and what it tries to do when it's in there. People install toolbars, widgets, programs, plug-ins, etc by the dozens, let them and their processes start up automatically and run in the backgorund, and then wonder why their computer somehow got slower. That's not a Windows limitation...you've maxed out your hardware! I could go on and on about the dumb/ignorant things people do with their computers, but the bottom line is: problems USUALLY (though not always) boil down to user.

Is Windows more susceptible? I don't know. I've got a Mac that purred like a kitten till recently. Now it acts like a virus and spyware-infected PC would - S L O O O O W. So what does that mean?

 

That's another good point, although I'd take a slightly different perspective on it.
On Windows, you are assaulted with competing software that tries to outdo everything else, which means that it's often hard to *prevent* toolbars, plugins and widgets from showing up randomly.

 

There were a lot of programs that launched on boot, but that installation of Windows had really been shot to hell, so it was slow even with the startup programs disabled. After reinstalling, I'm back to under 60 seconds.

 

I haven't noticed a windows "rot" as you call it and agree with pookie because if you take care of the system, and you do what you gotta do then your system will be fast. I am on my factory install and have a boot time of about 45sec. I am sure if i did a fresh install i would get it down to 20, or 30sec. It's all about how you take care of your system. Computers are like cars, they need to have things changed out, and updated every once in a while, and when you don't take care of it. (No gas, not right type of oil) then your car stops in the middle of the busy highway, or your cars brakes jam on you. But if you had done the proper pruning then your car would run perfectly, until for some unknown reason it would go by itself, because time does have it's toll, but then again if you take care of the car you will have newer, better parts to install over the old to make it good again. You get what i'm saying?

 

Windows does notoriously gets slower, even if you take good care of it... I have a 3 year old xp install on my other computer; it's been cleaned regularly, never had any malware problems or any other problems really, no bloatware, no unnecessary startup programs: And it's definitely waaay slower than it used to be.

 

Alright, think about this iza. You have a 3 year old PC, and everything is nice and fast in 2004. Over those 3 years the software you use on your computer gets updated and needs more power, and such. Therefor within those 3 years your computer slows down because you can't supply enough power for it, now windows. It's like trying to run vista on a 3 year old PC, new software old PC. Think about it, and also think about Photoshop. Photoshop notoriously needs a lot of ram. Over time it needs more, so a few years ago it needed 1GB, now it needs at least 2GB. See, it's not windows, it's the software. If you honestly updated your PC's hardware, and programs then i will start to believe this windows "rot".

 

Ain't that the truth! It's amazing how devious some installations can be. If you just click the default boxes, you'd never notice you were about to install some kind of Google or other crap: "Yes, also install Google blah blah blah so that I can run this cool program from my browser window!" "Yes, please install the free blah blah blah player along with this program! And let it automatically check for updates too!" (Even though I already have a player that works just fine).

That's part of being careful...ALWAYS look at what's being installed on your system along with that new program you want to use! Personally, I always prefer the "manual" option on installs; lots more control.

 

The install for CCleaner ironically tries to shovel Firefox and Google Toolbar onto your computer.

I'm sure we could all have computers that turned on instantly and could calculate Pi to 2 billion billion digits in 3 minutes, but the root behind this slowness is money (made off you) in the form of computer hardware and internet advertisements.

 

Yeah, I got a kick out of that too

 

I strongly disagree with the posters who deny the existence of Windows rot; I think I can say that since I understand how my computer works, I know how to maintain the hardware and software and how to keep unwanted software off my computer. But, no matter how hard I try or what measures I take, XP inevitably slows down over time. The interesting thing is that this doesn't happen to older, simpler operating systems such as Win95 and 98. I have one 98 install that is about 8 years old, and once the system is up it is very fast. It's difficult to explain adequately; I doubt whether even Microsoft developers could fully account for this phenomenon.

 

I've had this Windows installation for a year now, with no rot in sight. Maybe you're just doing it wrong (*crosses fingers*)

Just in case anyone is curious, to check the installation date of Windows, you can use "systeminfo" at a command prompt, or check the creation date of the "Windows" folder in C:\

 

I've run computers for years with no problems. Keep your registry clean, defragment your hard drive, and only install programs when absolutely necessary.

 

These are some factors:
- As Calvin mentioned, newer software (and more recent versions) tend to use more resources than older stuff. I notice that IE 7 is slower than IE 6. I bet if I compared a two year old version of Firefox, it'd be faster than the current version of Firefox.
- A lot of programs tend to run things in the background, even when you think you're not using them. (PookiePrancer mentioned this, but I want to emphasize the background process part.) Adobe Reader, iTunes, QuickTime, Sun Java, and some Yahoo stuff are all guilty of this on my machine. I turn this stuff off by running msconfig and services.msc. Still, it'll keep coming back when you do updates if you're not careful.
- Sometimes the hard disk just needs defragging.
- The Start Menu tends to grow over time. What you can do here (if it's displaying slowly) is organize programs into categories, so that the top level isn't too crowded.
- I'm sure some people's computers are infected with spyware, and they don't realize it.

Anyway, I agree with NinjaNoodles. I've had my current Windows installation almost 3 years. I'm not sure it's "rotted" any. If it has, I haven't noticed. I do defrag and block startup programs using msconfig and services.msc. I don't use any registry cleaner though, and I don't install programs unless I really mean it.

 

I think i might know one of the causes iza's computer is slowing down. You see the indexing feature was added to xp, and vista not win95, and 98 so every time he adds a new program, new or old his computer gets slower. Again i am just stating on of the many reasons it could be slowing down, along with my software theory.

 

I agree that over time, with updates and user saves, programs will require alot more power. This occurs not only with Windows but with software. Combine that with the freeware that is not really FREE. Naive users are a target for worms and spyware, worse yet is how much power the detection programs require to keep the naive users free of it. I think that everyone tends to blame big bad MS for it. I also on the other hand tend to format/install every year, or more Not because Windows is bogging down, but I start to get comfused in all the crap I install and saved and look forward to a clean slate.

Several weeks ago I was called out to a neighbors house. Her computer a 2.6g/256meg/60G was bogging down. She had 4 gigs remaining on her drive. I ran out and got a 1 gig stick, removed all unwanted programs, 2-12 gig restore points, defragged the drive (the whole drive was red, took over 2 hours), removed spyware, and was able to make her 3 year old install run almost like new. ALMOST

I started computing when hard drives were non-existant. And when they did finally come out, you learned real quick to maintain proper drive cleaning practices. I could never imagine myself with a large drive, I wouldnt know what to do with all the space. I am sure that it would lead to poor habits.

 

I'm not talking newer software, I mean everything, including core windows functions; startup times, logon times, time to open explorer, etc. And I have indexing disabled.

 

Well what level of access do you think your giving software when you install it? Your giving it system level access that's what. ANY program you install can slow down ANYTHING on your pc because programming languages were given that flexibility to make your system better but on an old system the more code asking your computer from system level access for more power will bog you down. If you as your computer to get faster it'll say: "Pshaw, get your own speed." But if your program with system access is telling itself to ask for more power (which it doesn't have) it will then try to do too many things at once and then you will slow down. Since there is code that makes up the core windows functions they can be changed, if the system wants them changed. I know what i'm saying is getting hard to follow because i am not explaining it correctly but bare with me please.

 

I can't say as I agree at all. I find that those discussing how Windows notoriously slows down are reflective of those I deal with on a daily basis. I ask the last time they optimized or cleaned their system and they can't answer it at all.

I have never had Vista slow down, now Xp, Millenium, Me, 3.1 before that. The reason is, of course, because I keep it running good by making sure i take care of it.

The other side of the coin is that Windows has grown and all programs and hardware are much more demanding. Many complain how much slower Vista is yet give no examples. The technology advance of vista compared to XP is steps and bounds ahead of any former upgrade.

And yes, yes I know...here come the XP lovers but I have one question that will stop all in their tracks. Can you work your way out of an XP crash? Exactly.

In the end, I believe its not Windows rot at all, but rather, its user rot. One can't expect a system to operate in top form when they have 6-7Gb of restore files, 40-50Gb of temp and internet files and so on.

Heck, temp files are a perfect example. If you ever want to see the proof of what I speak, unhide protected and hidden files, go to your User folder, dig up your temp files and see what is there. Its probably huge. This is because everytime you download and run a program, it expands and installs to the temp folder, many times just leaving it there.

Ok...ranted out for a Friday night. Personally, I absolutely love when someone asks me to look at their system because it has slowed down... Trojans, spyware, viruses, huge internet folders, tons of restore files, dell driver folders...its amazing.

By the time im finished, they are absolutely amazed at what they just learned. I like that.

 

My sentiments exactly flamenko. You took them right out of my mouth, in an easy to understand form. Now i'm sure the others will get what we are trying to get across to them.

 

Yes, many users are like that, but I'm not. I do defrag my drives, delete restore points, use ccleaner, winpatrol and msconfig for automatic startup processes as well as service tweaking and tweak programs. Like I said before (but no one seemed to listen), I understand how my computer works. Trust me, I maintain my computers well. It still happens.

 

Then no matter how good of a job you think you are doing you are still doing something wrong/leaving something out. If there was a timebomb in windows we would have noticed it a long time ago.

 

Also, resident antivirus and antispyware software (Windows Defender in my case) do slow things down. My computer is noticeably faster when I turn them off. Are you guys running Defender? I'm sure you weren't a few years ago.

I set Defender to scan weekly, because daily (the default) just slows things down too much all the time.

 

In that case, you may have a pesky virus, rootkit, or spyware infection (yes, some of them are VERY HARD to detect, much less eliminate). I feel for you, and don't doubt you're experiencing slow-downs and problems. Problem is, many of us can't really comment on the idea of Windows rot because we just don't see it...sorry. When there's a slow-down, though, there's always a reason. And we haven't even discussed your hardware!

I guess that's another reason it's hard to comment on "Windows rot." There's so many variables involved, Windows may have nothing to do with your problems. I may be pointing out the obvious here, but none of the big three operating systems are perfect; I don't care what the marketing teams or fan-boys say. I haven't had any performance issues with Linux or Windows (Vista or XP), but I do have them on my Mac (a problem I will soon tackle). Shall I then inquire about "OS X rot?"

 

Yes, of course - fair is fair . . .

We may even learn something new when you share the problem with us, and its fix.

 

Which is why we now have UAC on Vista, much like UNIX and it's step children has required higher level privileges to do certain things for years. And now that we finally have that feature, every "tweak kiddie" on the planet is telling their the world, just turn of UAC "it really speeds up your machine". So we are again back to the user aren't we.

Gary

 

Tweak Kiddie Scud???? OOOooooh.... yuk.

 

And I have a twelve year old 4 cpu Intel server that has been running Windows 2000 server for about 7 years, it runs just as fast today as it did 7 years ago when I first installed Win2000 server and SQL server on it.

My wife has an old dell laptop, it is running Win2000. It has IE, Outlook express, Picassa and Word on it. It has never had ANYTHING else loaded onto it. It runs just as fast today as when we configured it 5 years ago.

I have an old Sony laptop running XP. It has had a lot of stuff installed and uninstalled. I was careful with it to run a registry and file inventory program on it (InstallWatch) for every single app loaded on it. I could then be sure when I uninstalled an app that it really got uninstalled. It too boots and runs as fast as it ever did.

So what does all that prove? Nothing. We are both talking about anecdotal evidence, not proof. None of us have any real empirical evidence to back up our results. We are all just talking PERCEIVED speeds. Perceptions blurred by time and being in the presence of now much faster machines, that suddenly make our older beasts feel like slugs.

My $.02

Gary

 

I knew you'd like that! ...big ol' grin... Every day I see more and more blogs and web sites popping up with some self anointed "expert" parroting every tweak they can find. You dig into them a bit and find it's some twelve year old kid on his first computer who is cutting and pasting every tweak he can find. And then a few days latter they are crying about how slow Vista is or how screwed up it is ad nauseum.

They are starting to give folks who are carefully vetting each tweak they find, like yourself and the guys at Anandtech , a bad name. Like the "script kiddies" responsible for a lot of the virus variants out in the wild, I have dubbed these irresponsible "experts" TWEAK KIDDIES.

Gary

 

It's not about being fair; it just is what it is. Every OS has its issues. My problem? My wife commented to me that the Mac she typically uses for nothing more than web surfing had gotten really slow. Sure enough: click on a dock icon to start a program...wait 20-30 seconds for the icon to do its little bouncy thing, and then another 20-30 secs before the program opens; switch user profiles...wait 45 secs - 2 minutes for the new user's desktop to appear; load a page in Safari or Firefox on a 6 Mbps connection...you might as well be on dial-up (no, dial-up was faster).

Now, am I so naive as to blame OS X for these issues? Say it's "rotted?" No. Something's obviously just draining my mac's resources; I just need to find it. Believe it or not, Macs DON'T just work They require maintenance and good computing habits too.

 

@ Scuderia: Your last few posts have been right on the money. Very good points!

 

Personally I think he's been a bit cranky and...well...the Tweak Kiddie thing was totally uncaled for. Past your bedtime oldtimer? lol..actually lmao.

 

Well, he still has a good point, and yes, it is funny

My brother-in-law read about tweaking XP by turning off all those "nasty, unnecessary" processes. So he decided he'd apply his new-found knowledge to the PC I'd given my father-in-law for Christmas a couple of years ago. Turned off those pesky little anti-virus and anti-spyware apps running in the background and starting up with Windows (shaved .68 seconds off the boot-up time, you know) along with some other processes. Needless to say, it was only a matter of time before my f-i-l ended up with more than 600 spyware, and more than 100 viruses on his computer. Luckily none so severe that they ever crashed his system, and I was able to re-install Windows for him and salvage his personal files. Tweaks can be powerful things, but in the wrong hands....

 

Nah, it's not 3 AM yet. ... big ol' grin...

Gary

 

yep, same here.

 

Not me....I just play 'n play and play annnnen it keeps gittin faster!!!

 

I saw the title of this thread and thought it might be a newly defined disease afflicting those who spend far too much time in front of a screen on forums ....

 

If you haven't yet, you might want to try Mac Janitor or Onyx. Onyx is very good, but should be used carefully until you've ( you not necessarity yourself, but any new user) become familiar with its use.

BTW, "fair is fair" was meant to be taken lightly, as in it was another of my lame attempts at humor. Guess I need to give it up.

Good luck with your Mac.

 

I caught your humor Just didn't want anyone else to think I was bashing on Apple if they read your comment and didn't get it. Thanks for the Onyx tip, BTW! Hadn't heard of it, but will try it out.

 

+1 for Onyx. Certainly keeps our Mac chugging like new.

Regards,
Paolo

 

Might only be myself ........ But I haven't notice any Vista Rot like the Previous versions on Windows. And I have Tons of programs on it. And also have installed & uninstall many games and demos. I truly think the UAC has a lot to do with this.

I notice a XP rot depending on how much you put it through and/or after a few months.

 

One reason I love computers and programming is because nothing just happens. Everything has a cause and effect relationship. It's the same reason a computer can't generate a truly random number. So, if Windows is slowing down, there has to be a reason. Computers aren't organic. They can't "rot."

 

That's debatable.

 

How is that?

 

Yes, please divulge LIVEFRMNYC. I agree with Noodles because computers have to have everything that happens already set up for them by someone before it can happen.

 

Yes! We shall crush the rotten-windows camp with the weight of our sleek, fit installations!

No one's debating that some windows computers get slower... just why that happens, and, since a good number of savvy users seem to not have those issues, it does seem like it's not a problem inherent to windows.

I do just fine as long as I squirm around to avoid limbs falling asleep.

 

So you assume that everything that happens when you use Windows was intended to happen?
One could argue that notion.