Acer Predator (Vega 56+Ryzen 2) Helios 500

That's what I'm waiting on as well lol

Looks like I'm going to be waiting on another deal for the helios 500

 

Thanks for contacting AMD about this. They certainly have more motivation to provide an updated bios as they want more processor sales. They probably also have the ability to get Acer to cooperate given that it is B450 platform which AMD stated would support Zen2.

 

Someone should have done this to Asus AMD laptop or even now if its still possible to at least get Zen+ on it

Sent fra min SM-G970F via Tapatalk

 

Yeah, that uses B350, correct? It should support Zen2 as well if I remember the launch support charts correctly.

 

Yes B350, yet Asus abandoned the laptop like they do with all their machines shortly after release.
That is why it be interesting to contact AMD about it.

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I feel like all manufacturers besides Dell/Lenovo/Hp/Clevo do this. It just hurts more on rare models like these which could be upgraded.

Ironically for me the best part about this laptop is the Vega 56 - its probably the best laptop dedicated GPU for running Linux or a hackintosh. I guess support for a 3700X or better would certainly close the gap with the 9900k, but without a good supported dedicated GPU the performance even doing non-3d tasks is crap when running three simultaneous displays. Given that I primarily use MacOS and Linux at my work desk, I could probably get by with a eGPU containing a Vega card, but that is more hassle than having one simply built in.

 

The GL702ZC uses B350 motherboard. It should be able to support Zen 2 easily provided of course the BIOS chip is large enough to accommodate it (but I think it would be fine either way even if the chip was a smaller one - in the case of a smaller chip, they [AMD] would only need to eliminate support for any CPU that's less powerful than 1600 and 1700 and just incorporate Zen+ and Zen 2 support for 2600/2700 and 3600/3700x (along with faster RAM with lower timings) and ensure to say that GL702ZC would only support select CPU's of Zen 1, + and 2 generations (such as the 1600/1700, 2600/2700 and 3600/3700x).

This would greatly improve 1080p performance on that particular platform (and of course ours).
Plus, Zen 3 support would be even better.
Would potentially get 12 cores/24 threads in 65W version with similar or higher clocks, improved IPC and better RAM support.

The only thing about Helios 500 is the problem of 2 factory installed RAM sticks beneath the keyboard which require disassembly of the unit itself to reach them - but if you just do it once, and remove them, you can just stick to say 2x16GB in easily accessible slots (which makes it easier to replace/upgrade) in the future.

AMD would be amazing to release BIOS updates for our platform. It would ensure its longevity and grant us much better performance (and efficiency).

 

This is what I don't understand.
Which method did he use to contact AMD about this and what did he say to them?
Do we need to do this individually and do we need to provide AMD with specific information about our platform (or can we just wait for him to get all the needed software so he can upload it for the rest of us?)?

 

He mentioned the boot kit program so I assumed that was how he got in touch. The update would in theory work for anyone, unlike a dumped bios which has stuff like the windows key and Ethernet MAC address embedded.

 

I figured as much that the update would work for anyone who has the Helios 500 with Ryzen/Vega given that the system is probably built to same specs (only main potential difference being in CPU and RAM size - which would either vary between 2600 and 2700 for the CPU and/or RAM would vary between 16GB and 32GB - and of course SSD availability - none of which would have a specific bearing on the BIOS itself given that a single BIOS update is released for ALL Helios 500's with Ryzen/Vega).

He did mention the boot kit program, but I also recall him saying that he got it from AMD.
My question relates to HOW did he contact AMD (did he send an email, and if so, to which e-mail address did he write, did he use support forums, and if so, what did he ask, etc.) and what did he ask.

 

He talked about it over at the Acer Community Forums too. Honestly though what he is asking for is a long shot. I will be amazed if they do release an update. Probably what he will end up getting is just a boot kit meant for a desktop motherboard.

 

Hopefully we won't chase @BurnsXL away with our enthusiasm

If @BurnsXL can put together a timeline of interaction - AMD first noticed his make / model and request for a laptop upgrade with a Ryzen 3 CPU, and AMD knows Acer (and Asus) aren't so far providing a CPU BIOS update upgrade path themselves, and keep us up to date.

Maybe he / AMD will included Acer / Asus in on the project so that everyone can get an official BIOS update for Ryzen 3 (/4?) to provide a path to the promise of AM4 socket upgrades in laptops as well as desktops.

If anyone from Acer / Asus are reading this please do help out and make your laptops live a longer and more fruitful lifetime - it will help sales in the long run!!

 

Is it possible to simply get a general BIOS for B450 chipset from AMD?
That would probably overwrite the BIOS and unlock it completely given that the motherboar IS based on a desktop one, and technically, because its based on a desktop one, it should work.
Problem is, we don't know WHICH B450 mobo Acer used as a basis... if we did, we could probably try using that mobo bios to flash it with everything unlocked.
The only thing that's a problem here is how Vega 56 is fully integrated into the motherboard - which changes the setting, and may require BIOS to be organized in a specific way.

Still, I think AMD itself could easily release their own BIOS for Helios 500 and GL702ZC given they worked with Asus and Acer in creating those laptops (I think).

Would flashing a 'general BIOS' for B450 work in this situation?

 

The boot kit program is AMD sending a Zen+ processor so that the receiver can reflash their motherboard with a BIOS supporting the Zen 2 processor... Now ask yourself what we are missing in this...

Spoiler

A BIOS supporting the Zen 2 processor

 

He already has a Zen+ processor.
He needs a BIOS supporting Zen 2 which he can flash... I was under the impression he said AMD will be sending him the boot kit program and the BIOS too.

 

Sad to say, those of you in this thread with your hopes up are gonna be really disappointed...

 

Probably, which is fine as I'm still satisfied with my ranger and reaaaaallllyyyyy don't want to swap platforms but one can dream.

 

I'm thinking perhaps AMD misunderstood his request. I don't know how or why they'd have a Helios 500 bios that supports Zen 2 on hand. It'd have to come from Acer.

 

I know, this is a very strange situation.

This would require a lot of effort from AMD as the BIOS have to be made specifically for this machine (an assumption but one supported from experience with many notebook computers) or with less effort from AMD support from Acer to make a custom BIOS. If Acer want to release an update they'd make the development and testing in-house before releasing it, why use external testing from an end user instead?
Safe to say that this is an AMD representative misunderstanding what was requested.

 

The board is designed and manufactured by Quanta, so the bios is likely updated by their engineers as well. AMD could certainly do the work, but I am guessing that Acer would not want to cooperate at all with this given that it will essentially make them no money and likely increase the amount of RMA's going in to their service center from failed upgrade attempts. Now, if Acer happens to release a new refreshed model that adds Zen2 support but otherwise changes nothing else, we may be able to buy one, dump the new bios, flash it to the old motherboard and it may work.

 

Why would there be increase in RMA's?
If AMD provides a BIOS that supports Zen 2 and works, then the only thing we'd need to do is swap out the CPU.
Worst case scenario, Zen 2 CPU doesn't work... Zen+ still should (if the BIOS functions as intended).
Increase in RMA's would only occur with those who end up damaging the motherboard during the swap out or something else that's more physical.

 

Possibly, but he provided them with the model number, etc... so its probably understood that it's a laptop.... not a desktop.

 

Oh sure, most of the upgrades would likely go fine, but some would fail for one reason or another. More RMA's cost more money so it would need to be offset somehow in their mind. I guess since the bios is locked, they could have a "upgrade" program where you ship it in and they upgrade the bios and CPU for a modest fee. Oh, and does Zen2 work with Ryzen Master 1.3? I am guessing they would need to update Predator Sense to be compatible with Ryzen Master 2 as well.. actually that would be nice to have even with Zen1+.

Speaking of RMA's, no word from Acer yet on mine. But I guess that is good news since it appears that most people who get denied a repair were contacted just a day or two after arrival at the service center.

 

A simple CPU swap with a functional BIOS upgrade would probably NOT cause an RMA in hands of those who have experience.
Again, I will admit there could be potential issues with physical failures from mishandling units during the swap, but I doubt that this would be any more problematic for Acer than a regular RMA (especially if the units are under warranty - so Acer will be in the same predicament - and you would be nuts to tell Acer you tried replacing the CPU, because that could invalidate the warranty, in which case it would end up giving Acer revenue anyway).

If Acer would offer their own upgrade path to Zen 2 for a small fee (along with upgrading the RAM so they can say take out existing RAM sticks and put in new/faster RAM sticks with low timings of equal capacity inside which you provide them with), then yeah, I could see that working.
But, why would it make any difference if the BIOS is locked?
If AMD provides us with an updated BIOS for Helios 500 that supports Zen 2, there's a good chance it will be unlocked anyway, and it will be a case of a simple CPU swap out on our part.

I don't know about compatibility between Predator sense and Ryzen Master 2, or Zen 2 and Ryzen Master 1.3.
Considering that It's still Zen uArch, I don't think Predator Sense would have issues working with it... if it does, simply do Windows reinstall (just in case).

 

Another update, AMD reviewed my case and approved it - think I mentioned this already. FedEx shows the kit on its way, hopefully it works. I'd also pay (at this point) a small fee for Acer to support this as well, if the AMD kit doesn't work.

They 100% know it's a laptop and I had to take pictures of everything for them to research and review it. It's possible that it's just an assembly line at their support center, but I have to think that they didn't do a week of research without looking in to what's going on.

Fingers crossed, I'd love whatever it is, a 15-30% single core boost.

 

Wow I'll have to purchase a helios if this works LOL

 

Works what exactly, LOL. What do you think is IN that parcel? A USB flash drive with a BIOS update? I highly doubt so.
Just a cheap Ryzen CPU probably - that's my guess.

 

You never know, could be a usb with a bios

 

@BurnsXL - Once you have AMD actively working to help you upgrade your CPU in the Helios 500 you could loop in Acer to provide the updated BIOS - cc / include all of your AMD email contacts in that request and followup's with Acer along the way such that Acer's lack of interest in updating the BIOS is made visible to AMD and ask for AMD's help to convince Acer to do the BIOS update to allow Ryzen 3 CPU's to be upgraded in the laptop.

Even if there isn't an actual BIOS update in the AMD upgrade package, you can use the pressure from AMD to at least get Acer thinking about updating the BIOS - since everyone else's motherboard is allowing Ryzen 3 upgrades with a BIOS update - probably other Acer motherboards as well.

Which is something else to consider, are there any desktop motherboards that the Helios Ryzen motherboard share design? Sometimes the laptop motherboard will be a modified desktop motherboard - IDK if it will be close enough to flash the desktop BIOS, but it is something to know and quote to Acer to "make their job" easier - and their excuses have less weight.

@BurnsXL - thanks for keeping us up to date - try to stay positive and look for all avenues to get Acer to update the BIOS as needed with AMD's help.

 

If I was to flash a desktop BIOS on this machine, the very first thing I would check is where's the Vega vBIOS stored. Afterward - check all the main chips that you have there. Starting with the Hub/chipset (i.e. B350 or whatever, quick browse didn't come with anything) and then storage controller and etc. Find a similar desktop MoBo and see if it was updated to support Ryzen 2. Finally - count your blessings and shoot

 

I wouldn't suggest flashing a laptop motherboard with a desktop BIOS, but if the desktop motherboard design is close enough to the Ryzen laptop motherboard design that can be pointed out to Acer. If the Ryzen 3 CPU BIOS update is already available via the updated desktop BIOS, Acer can migrate that Ryzen 3 updated BIOS to the laptop.

@BurnsXL - If you can give Acer / AMD all of the options available and encourage them to work together to move forward with laptop CPU upgrades on the same AM4 socket, maybe it can happen.

 

A modified desktop BIOS is a long shot (and of course illegal too) but with so much functionality integrated in a modern CPU it could perhaps work. The most critical differences would be the EC and misc. hardware routing, the memory controller is integrated and the GPU is connected as in a normal desktop as long as it have a dedicated ROM chip. The EC firmware is generally co-located with the main BIOS but IIRC win32asmguy confirmed it has a dedicated ROM in this machine?

 

EC / BIOS / vBIOS are all on separate SPI flash chips. I doubt a desktop bios would work but you can always try. Just keep in mind that if the board gets bricked and is unrecoverable then you are looking at a 3 week RMA time. I am not even sure how much the repair would cost if they charged you for it, or if the motherboard can even be purchased as a spare part. It may be cheaper and easier to just sell it and get a Clevo or something else that can use a 9900k to hit similar performance levels.

 

Yes as I wrote it's a longshot. If the schematics were available as it is for the Intel version one could verify how each chip is connected and find potential gotchas that need patching - sadly my regular scan of the standard schematics sites haven't produced a positive result yet.
I choose this machine paying more for worse performance as it didn't have the Intel Nvidia combination. Why support a company that lies and redirect rather than admitting their mistakes?

 

Your last line is a bit odd.
The Helios 500 AMD/Vega isn't more expensive and it doesn't give worse performance. If anything, performance is on par or better than on Intel/NV (especially in multithreaded tasks) and its actually cheaper.
The performance would have been even better if Acer didn't mess up the RAM support and created 4 RAM slots on the mobo (2 of which are inaccessible without complete disassembly)... because otherwise, it would have been a simple matter to upgrade the RAM with 2 high frequency/low latency sticks that would improve performance by quite a lot in memory depended software.

If we can get Zen 2 BIOS support, it would also include support for faster RAM at lower latencies... but again, we'd be a bit stuck with having to disassemble the machine to reach the factory pre-installed RAM.

 

Speed isn't an absolute, for the tasks I have Intel is faster even with all patches. And for the graphics card again for my tasks the alternative (Nvidia GTX 1080) was faster. Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying that this is in any way a slow computer, it's extremely fast and the Rx Vega is something that will probably be more powerful than the 1080 if I get the time to play with GPU compute.
Of course on tasks that parallelize well this was(is?) faster than the Intel alternative.

Yeah. I'll never understand that notebook manufacturers fit slow memory especially in enthusiast machines.

A PITA but not that complicated. The real problem is getting that Zen 2 support!

 

Oh, I can definitely appreciate the idea of choosing an AMD system over Intel + Nvidia due to business practices. I wish I had the willpower to do the same!

I think I was reading on the Acer Community forums that there is potentially a hard 1200MHz memory speed limit and using Ryzen Master to go beyond that was unsuccessful. I am not sure if the motherboard is using daisy chain or t-topology, but if it is daisy chain then there would likely be favored slots that would only be capable of hitting higher speeds. I never tried my 16GB HyperX sticks in the easy access memory slots but it would definitely explain why the bios chose 1066MHz speed when I replaced the 8GB sticks in the back side slots.

 

I successfully installed a Ryzen 5 2600 with Thermalgrizzly Kryonaut on the CPU and Conductonaut on the Vega 56, also replaced the 2400mhz ram with HyperX 2666 Mhz ram. The 2700 us going to my desktop on a X470 Taichi.

Waiting for a Zen 2 Bios compatible i the meantime.

 

Is the ram capped at 2400mhz? Also, is the HyperX kit you purchased single rank or dual rank sticks? I have heard that dual rank can limit speeds in Ryzen setups. Also did you install both sticks on the same side of the mainboard? I am wondering if the primary slots for each channels is on different sides of the motherboard from what hwinfo64 shows.

 

@BurnsXL - Once you have AMD actively working to help you upgrade your CPU in the Helios 500 you could loop in Acer to provide the updated BIOS - cc / include all of your AMD email contacts in that request and followup's with Acer along the way such that Acer's lack of interest in updating the BIOS is made visible to AMD and ask for AMD's help to convince Acer to do the BIOS update to allow Ryzen 3 CPU's to be upgraded in the laptop.

Even if there isn't an actual BIOS update in the AMD upgrade package, you can use the pressure from AMD to at least get Acer thinking about updating the BIOS - since everyone else's motherboard is allowing Ryzen 3 upgrades with a BIOS update - probably other Acer motherboards as well.

Which is something else to consider, are there any desktop motherboards that the Helios Ryzen motherboard share design? Sometimes the laptop motherboard will be a modified desktop motherboard - IDK if it will be close enough to flash the desktop BIOS, but it is something to know and quote to Acer to "make their job" easier - and their excuses have less weight.

@BurnsXL - thanks for keeping us up to date - try to stay positive and look for all avenues to get Acer to update the BIOS as needed with AMD's help.

This is exactly my thinking...the first boot kit was just thrown over a fence by FedEx and I didn't even realize it was sitting outside for a week. Needless to say another one is en route. I suspect you're right, but my thinking is that AMD and Acer will start a dialogue about this and that's by far the best chance of something happening.

It's a low % chance but it's better than anything else I'm aware of at the moment...given that it's no money or sweat off my back I figure why not. I'll let you all know later tonight what exactly it is.

 

So according to HWINFO and CPUID the memory is running in Dual Channel (both slots populated on back of the board) at 1197.4Mhz CL14, so no full speed 1333Mhz, but the funny thing is Predator Sense shows 2666Mhz.

Also regarding Predator Sense not working with latest Ryzen Master, the version 3.00.3126 found under PH-717-17 works just fine with the latest Ryzen Master 2.0.1.1233, not sure if anyone knew about it, you can find it here https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/support-product/8042?b=1

 

Awesome news about Predator Sense. I wonder if that means a Predator Helios 700 AMD edition is in the works?

I am not surprised about the memory operating at 1200mhz. My HyperX 32GB kit operated the same way. They are dual rank sticks, though. I am tempted to take an evening and try a 2666mhz 2x8GB single rank kit to see if it can boot beyond 1200mhz.

 

Darn, I've had that happen, only problem is AMD may send you a generic kit the 2nd time, not realizing the background around your specific request.

Did you work through the resend with your direct contact at AMD / Acer that worked out this special update kit? Or was it someone at the support line?

Nothing like keeping it interesting.

 

Guys... did anyone realize that our laptops support 2k resolution on the display itself?
I am able to change my resolution to 2k on the desktop and games easily.
I had no idea this was doable since display itself has a sticker saying Full HD 1080.

Interesting... it may mean we could play at 2k and not be obstructed by the lower performing RAM as much.

 

Downsampling from greater than native resolutions has been a thing for a very long time.

 

You had been impatiently awaiting for a parcel and let it laying around for a week... and then it disappeared? Oh yeah, also let down those folks who actually were waiting for that parcel with your reputation depending on it having 5 posts on the forum too, sure, not suspicious at all, not at all. Yeah, right. No pun intended.. not to you at least.

 

No, I mean, usually, the games and desktop resolution is limited to the maximum supported resolution of the display itself (aka, no other resolutions would present themselves as an option).
This was always the case whenever I used my laptops or desktops (even on the GL702ZC I was inherently limited to 1080p).
I didn't change my display resolution from the drivers, I changed it from Windows Display Settings... and I noticed that games offer 2k.

 

This is usually the case by default, but virtual resolutions greater than native are exposed if you enable Nvidia DSR, AMD VSR (what you have), or create custom resolutions in the graphics driver or using CRU. For example, this is the range of resolutions I can select in Windows/games with DSR enabled on my 1080p panel. Regular DSR is limited to 4x native resolution, but using Custom DSR Tool I can create resolutions up to 64x (!) native.

 

Oh yeah... VSR looks like it was enabled in drivers (though, not by me - it was on by default).

 

Tonight I will try to set my HyperX 2666 to the actual speed of 2666Mhz and 15-17-17 with the latest Ryzen Master, my previous attempts of OCing the 2700 to 4.0Ghz worked fine, will see if the 2600 behaves similarly.