Acer Predator (Vega 56+Ryzen 2) Helios 500

Helios 500 has been 1300 for a while again.

Been pondering it for a while now lol

 

Ryzen 5 2600 is happy with 4.0Ghz @ 1.275V, will see if can go lower that 1.275, the issue is with the ram, I set 1333Mhz but when I click Apply/Test the Ram drops to 1200... not sure what is going on.

 

Glad to hear the 2600 is working out well. The memory issue is likely something that can't be fixed without a bios update or may even be a hardware limitation depending on how the board was engineered.

 

I think the BIOS and quad RAM slots could both be the issue.
But, both can (probably) be circumvented starting with a BIOS update and then, if the Zen 2 CPU works (after the BIOS update), remove the factory pre-installed RAM below the keyboard (by disassembling the unit) and just install high speed/low latency 3600MhZ RAM into 2 readily available slots as one opens the back plate.

That would probably circumvent the hw limitation of the motherboard if its fundamentally unable to allow 4 RAM slots to operate at high speeds at the same time (which is a problem now, because if you try to populate all 4 RAM slots, the speeds at which the RAM will function will drop from 2400 MhZ to 2100 MhZ). This suggests a hw limitation, but could also just as easily be a BIOS issue.
I don't know why Acer went with 4 RAM slots on this motherboard and then proceeded to design it in a way by placing 2 RAM slots behind the keyboard which makes it impossible to upgrade unless you disassemble the unit (what were they thinking?).
But if the mobo IS capable (and technically speaking, it IS based on a desktop mobo, and we know 4 RAM slots ARE capable functioning on high speeds with Ryzen on regular desktops with unlocked BIOSes), then a BIOS update alone would probably do the trick and we could have 4 RAM slots populated with high speed/low latency RAM.

However, Acer doesn't seem interested in providing a BIOS update.
If AMD is alerted to this and they initiate talks with Acer, then it could prompt them to supply a BIOS update (or AMD could provide one - they could probably work with Acer to supply them the existing latest BIOS version 1.08 and AMD can then inject microcode updates into it for Zen 2 and of course high speed RAM and of course, unlock the whole BIOS).

I don't see a problem in Acer providing a BIOS update that gets around this RAM limitation and allowing Zen 2 and higher RAM speeds.
But I think part of the problem is that Acer as an OEM doesn't seem to create its own dekstop motherboards like other OEM's do.
Other OEM's could potentially benefit from BIOS updates because consumers could opt in getting a cheaper B450 or X470 mobo with a new BIOS and then get Zen 2 for example - but this doesn't necessarily play a big incentive factor in OEM's updating desktop mobos because there's no guarantee consumers would do this - generally speaking, new mobos are created anyway as new CPU's arrive, so what's driving them to update the BIOS-es?).

Laptops are generally considered 'second rate' technology/hw which OEM's stop supporting almost immediately, or usually, 6 months down the line.
Considering the modularity of Helios 500 Ryzen/Vega, its actually downright stupid Acer doesn't want to release an updated and unlocked BIOS for Zen 2 and high speed RAM support.
Why?
Because it would allow them to generate brand loyalty for one thing.
The unit itself is REALLY well designed in regards to cooling and noise (its very quiet and remains cool, even under full load - its one of the quietest laptops available - considering it has desktop grade hw).
So, I think Acer is actually shooting themselves in the foot by not releasing a BIOS update.

It could actually drive more sales of the unit in the long run (especially with Zen 2 and potential Zen 3 support - since AMD said they will continue supporting existing AM4 into 2021).

And Acer could develop a plan where you can pay a small fee for a BIOS update which would give you Zen 2 and high RAM speed support (I wouldn't mind that - provided of course its not expensive).
They could even develop the BIOS themselves and just send it to you via e-mail or made available via your Acer account on their website - which you'd just integrate via the Windows BIOS updater you already have.
Any new units they produce and sell would have to come with the new BIOS pre-installed (obviously)... existing users which bought the units before Zen 2 release could pay for this upgrade.

See? Acer could still benefit from BIOS updates on this unit and would give us a really nice boost in performance with 3700x and high performance RAM (or at the very least, with unlocked BIOS, we could technically overclock the factory installed RAM itself to function on higher frequencies).

 

My guess is Acer is preparing a Helios 700 AMD which will have Zen 2 support, RX 5700 Mobile, and faster ram speeds. Especially since if you go to the Helios 700 Intel page and download PredatorSense drivers, it clearly has an AMD installer that supports Ryzen Master 2.0. Maybe they will even announce this at their "Next" event on September 4th.

No idea what they plan to do with the old model in terms of bios updates, but at the $1299 price its still pretty good value for what it has. I am still curious if the memory uses T-Topology or Daisy Chain layout. I am so tempted to take a few high res photos and send them to Buildzoid on youtube to see if he do a special "laptop" VRM review.

 

You replied to the wrong guy. @BurnsXL is the one you are talking smack about, here's his last post:

@James D - what exactly is "suspicious" about his posts? To me he gave an honest sharing of his experience. He went through the trouble of signing up to share it. He even shared his mistakes with us. But, he hasn't been back yet.

That's not all that unusual. More unusual would be for someone to take the time to follow through and come back online and let us know what happened even if it wasn't successful.

It's tough enough to get people to open up without people like you crapping on them. How do you think that move will encourage him to respond here should he make it back here to share his success / failure with us?

You screwed up by replying to me instead of him, so you're batting average sucks too.

He isn't obligated to follow up to us, and maybe he's got other things keeping him from going on. Or, Acer hasn't followed through and he's still trying to get action out of them.

Let's give him a chance to answer before crapping on him again, ok?

Hey, @BurnsXL - what's up?

 

Well, I spent the afternoon assembling and disassembling the Predator Helios to figure out the ram slots. Channel 1, Dimm 2 is on the back side of the mainboard closest to the processor, and channel 2 Dimm 2 is on the front of the board on the high slot. By using those slots the same HyperX 32gb dual rank kit operated at 1200mhz instead of 1066mhz. I also tried a 16gb kit of single rank ram but still wasn't able to break 1200mhz. Definitely something in the bios limiting the speed.

Oh, and a new version of PredatorSense was posted to the Helios 500 page that supports Ryzen Master 2. It is even newer than the version posted for the Helios 700.

 

Unpacking the new zip dated 8/23/2019:
https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/support-product/7737?b=1

and there are new Predator models such as the Triton 900 and 700, but they are only Intel as listed in their models section, except for 1 listing for the Triton 900 that doesn't show the specs in one entry:
https://www.acer.com/ac/en/GB/content/predator-models/laptops/predatortriton900

Perhaps that is the Ryzen 3000 model? No such blank holder in the Triton 700 models...
https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/predator-models/laptops/predatorhelios700

 

I hope the new Zen2 model ends up being a Helios 500 or 700 with the same starting MSRP of $2199.

 

Hm... shouldn't the MSRP be lower than that?
I mean, Zen 2 has been out for a while now, and 3700x isn't really that expensivs (MSRP to MSRP, aren't 2700 and 3700x very close in pricing?).
3700x is $329 and 2700 was $300.

Plus, the MSRP of Radeon 5700 is $350 (whereas Vega 56 was $400).
So, I'd actually think the MSRP should be about $2180 (which also depends on the type of configuration they go in regards to storage, but prices have been dropping quite nicely on that front too).

All in all, I would hope the starting price would be well under $2000.
But if they do a new motherboard, then that will probably drive up the price as the X5... series mobos are more expensive.

 

I doubt it would be priced any less than the Intel Helios 700 base model. It doesn't really matter much anyways because they can always just put it on sale if necessary.

 

Hi.

In the last few days I have read all 67 pages of this long thread. It was very interesting and I learned a lot. I hope it will be OK to ask you a few questens?

I am considering to buy a Acer Predator Helios 500, with Ryzen 2700 CPU and Vega 56 GPU on sale, to use it for working with the video editing and grading program Davinci Resolve.

In Resolve the CPU is used to run the app, disk I/O and compression and decompression of codecs.
Resolve does all its image processing in the GPU on the graphics cards OpenCL cores. So I am looking for higher GPU performance only.

Here is a link to 'RX Vega 56 successfully flashed with Vega 64 BIOS for performance boost':

https://www.kitguru.net/components/...shed-with-vega-64-bios-for-performance-boost/

And an another link for 'Video BIOS Collection':

https://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios...56+Mobile&interface=&memType=&memSize=&since=

If I search for 'Card Model': Vega 56 Mobile, do I find a download link for the Acer Vega 56 Mobile 8 GB VgaBIOS.

Do you think, it can be replaced with a Vega 64 BIOS, as in my above link?

Do you have any information on the Brand of the Acer Predator Helios 500 Vega 56 Graphics Card?

And what tool do you expect, I will need to replace the current Acer Vega 56 BIOS with a Vega 64 BIOS?

Regards Carsten.

 

This is not a standard v56, it's a custom mobile version limited to 120w. You'll likely cause major issues if you flash to a v64 bios.

That said, I've been able to clock mine to 1450/900 and still stay under the 120w limit (barely). That should give slightly better than stock desktop v56 performance (which clocks 1475/850) at about half the power. The laptop is not designed to push more than 330w total gpu and cpu, and a v64 bios would likely either not flash at all, or if it did would draw so much lower it'd fry the gpu power delivery, get stuck throttling massively, or instantly brick the system due to incompatibility with the mobile gpu.

 

Don't do it, you will brick your laptop without able to revert the damage, trust me (did it already)
The V56 Bios on the Helios 500 is 512kb, the ones you will find online are 256kb, insta death to your Laptop.

I would rather do some Power Play Soft Table changes on the Registry to unlock more power/voltage etc, but then you will hit a wall with the power brick maximum supply of 330w I believe. You would need a 550-750W supply to unlock the true potential of the V56/V64.

 

As others have said, if you get the Helios 500 with Ryzen/Vega, DON'T try to flash a V64 bios onto V56.
The TDP's are too different for one thing, the V56 in Helios is custom-made and limited to 120W TDP.

Besides, performance-wise, you wouldn't be losing out on too much in comparison to V64.
You can also overclock V56 in Helios 500 to perform as good or better than desktop V56 while staying within 120W TDP...
Davinci Resolve is a good program... it should be able to make good use of the Ryzen+ and V56... so I don't think you will suffer anything in regards to performance.

As for disk I/O... you'd be be far better off getting a proper SSD for storage inside the Helios 500. Essentially, replacing the 1TB HDD with 1TB or 2TB SSD.

Depending on when you are considering getting this laptop, you may want to consider waiting to see if any OEM's come out with Zen 2 and Navi in laptops as an option.

 

Hi.

With all your rekommandations, will I drop my idea to change the Vega 56 to a Vega 64 BIOS. Thank you for your advice.

But there are other things I don't understand, may be you have the answer. The Ryzen 7 2700 have a Base Frequency TDP of 65 Watt:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12625/amd-second-generation-ryzen-7-2700x-2700-ryzen-5-2600x-2600/8

And you tell me that the Vega 56 are staying within 120W TDP. Why do the Acer Helios 500 then, need a 330 Watt power brick?

I read a few early reviews of a power brick of 230 Watt. Later all write about a 330 Watt power brick. I expect when using a 230 Watt unit can it use extra power from the battery, if needed. Am I right?
And now I wonder if the 330 watt power brick, both can supply the needed power to the laptop, and recharge the battery, at the same time?

Do any know what the actual max power consumption are?

I also tried to find the size and weight of the power brick.
I can't find it, can any help?

Regards Carsten.

 

How well does this perform in games? I'm a developer and gamer and am considering purchasing this instead of the new 2019 Helios 300. I mostly play Overwatch at the moment, but I'd like to get into streaming and give games like battle field 5, the upcoming Cod and anthem a try. Do you guys think this will fit my needs?

Also, is the gpu overclockable?

 

From what I've seen, this performs right behind the 1070 model at stock, likely a bit better once tuned, but you can get a 2060 laptop on sale for around $1.1K or so, and this sits around $1.5K last I checked.

 

Nope, its been consistently 1300 for a few weeks now.

Been really hard to not just go and buy it, but with my Ranger its hard to justify it simply because I dont have a "need" for it.

 

1300 is still relatively eh, can snag a lower end 2070 laptop even for that price on sale, Likely a 2060 one for sure

https://www.newegg.com/rog-scar-ii-...top&cm_re=2070_laptop-_-34-235-123R-_-Product
$1439 for a 8750H/2070

https://www.newegg.com/graphite-gra...&cm_re=2070_laptop-_-9SIA8S19MS2772-_-Product

$1399 for a G4500/2070

 

Tempting at $1.3k though...

 

I would say not really, all you're really getting is the CPU and at that point just build a MITX for cheaper

 

Ah, yes. But no thanks.

 

I can always build an ITX, I can't build an ITX under weight limits for international flights however. Which is where laptops take over.

 

This. Plus I seem to have an aversion to maintaining a non-zero bank balance...

 

Then you can get a 2070 laptop for a little more, or a 2060 laptop for less

Spoiler: ,1160

https://www.newegg.com/black-asus-tuf-gaming-fx505dv-pb74-gaming-entertainment/p/N82E16834235202R?Description=2060 laptop&cm_re=2060_laptop-_-34-235-202R-_-Product

or a 6 core option for

Spoiler: 1259

https://www.newegg.com/hp-sandblasted-hairline-brushing-finish-and-carbon-fiber-pattern-in-shadow-black-omen-15-dc1030nr-ga/p/N82E16834271142?Description=2060 laptop&cm_re=2060_laptop-_-34-271-142-_-Product

 

Ever since AMD released new drivers for Navi, some Vega 56 functionality ended up seemingly broken for owners of Helios 500 laptop with Ryzen/Vega.

With newest drivers, every time I bring the laptop (Helios 500 with Ryzen 2700 and Vega 56) out of sleep mode, the screen turns on with static noise which doesn't go away until I hard shut down the laptop and start it up again.

This issue is NOT present on 19.5.2, and 19.6.2 drivers (laptop wakes up normally after sleep with those drivers and I can resume working because I get a proper picture on the display).

I'm using Windows 10 x64 Home with latest updates.


I uploaded a picture of the problem.
I also have a short video on youtube:

 

Do not buy more than you need, you will regret it, like me, too many machines, no use for them.

Some people might not have space for ITX, remember you still need to plugin a monitor, get a keyboard, a mouse and these ITX builds cannot get very good battery life, battery packages for desktop PC's are always AT LEAST 5kg bricks, not very fun to carry around or replace pricewise.

Its good price but for that you can easily get 6 - 8 core Tongfang barebones with 2060 or 2070 with mechanical keyboards, I rather wait for Zen2 gaming laptops, I wish Clevo did one or Dell/Alienware

 

how did you overclock the vega 56?

 

If you use 17.12 drivers from acer site, use Msi Afterburner. Just go to Msi "settings", go to "General" tab and find and enable "Extend official overclocking limits" and "Unlock Voltage Control". When you done that, save and pc will restart. Then just run Msi afterburner and set clocks, and dont forget to undervolt.


With official Amd drivers Msi Afterburner wont work, just enable "Extend official overclocking limits" and "Unlock Voltage Control" with Msi Afterburner then overclock gpu with Sapphire Trixx.




I can push my gpu to the limits alone, but i hit the power limit wall (121w) and differences are minimal. Anyone found the solution how to set powerlimit with powerplay tables? I tried, sadly unsuccessful. I need 10w or 20w more.

I hit 6457 in 3dmark, core 1451, memory 900 (i can go to 950 but in games is worse perf because of 121w limit):
https://www.3dmark.com/spy/8418598

6533 in 3dmark, core 1451, memory 950
https://www.3dmark.com/spy/8207939

Superposition Benchmark 1080p Extreme

I am satisfied with the result, have better performance than stock vega 56 and the same fps performace as desktop gtx 1070 or even better with games.
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-radeon-rx-vega-56-8gb-review,28.html



Pushed ryzen 2700 to the max, 4.1ghz with all cores, 1.325v but in prime95 it reaches more than 95c and crashed, for gaming is stable 24/7. I will replace cpu with 2700x which i have at home because it runs cooler (4.1ghz with 1.25v) or i will just replace the stock paste.

CB15 score is 1829


Predator can handle 4.0ghz, 1.275v without problem (tested with prime95)


3.9ghz 1.2v (tested with prime95)


Stock (with prime95)




With overclocked gpu and cpu full load, laptop pulls almost 300w from the power

 

Is that using the stock PSU or did u buy one rated for pulling 300w?

 

Stock adapter is 330w

 

The stock adaptor is rated for supplying a maximum of 330w to the laptop, which (ignoring the fact you should never really be maxing out a PSU anyway) means it is not rated for drawing 300 from the wall.

If the PSU is drawing 300w from the wall then depending on PSU efficiency the laptop will be drawing 335w-365w from the PSU.

 

You got it backwards. If the PSU is 80% efficient, it would be pulling 412.5W from the wall when supplying 330W to the laptop.

 

Yup, my bad, think its time to go to sleep haha

 

It's the same adapter i use for my Ranger, a delta 330w

 

I edited my last post with some pics

 

Btw, I sent a request to AMD support about this static noise issue occurring from waking up from sleep mode with latest drivers.
They suggested I do a clean install of the latest drivers using DDU utility.
I responded by saying that I can do that, but in the process I will lose Freesync functionality due to the laptop being setup in a custom fashion and asked them is there a way to avoid Freesync from stopping to work (apart from of course installing latest drivers on top of Acer stock ones)... but they said there isn't.

So, I ran DDU, cleaned up the drivers from registry etc. and did a clean install of latest drivers... but alas, the static noise issue keeps appearing after putting the laptop out of sleep mode (which requires a hard shut down and restart to get the display to function properly).
This is what I reported back to AMD on Friday evening, but of course have yet to receive a reply.

Is it possible that the pre-installed OS could be causing problems too?
I mean, it seems unlikely, because drivers up until 19.5.2 seem to work properly, but any driver beyond 19.6.1 or 19.6.2 (which slows down Vega performance anyway) seems to produce static noise on the display after bringing the laptop from sleep mode.

Hopefully, this issue will get addressed.
I also, told them that people losing Freesync functionality on doing a clean install of latest drivers is unacceptable for such a fairly new unit and that they should be in contact with Acer to rectify this problem.

Have Acer tell AMD how they modified the drivers to detect/enable Freesync.
But I told AMD I'd be ok with a compromise of clean installing Acer stock drivers first and the updating them to latest ones, provided that AMD solves the problem of static noise issue.

 

I doubt its an issue with the pre-installed OS. I have seen it on Windows 10 1903 (clean install), Ubuntu 18.04.3 using amdpro 19.30 drivers, and MacOS Mojave 10.14.6. One person conjectured that its an issue with power play applying incorrect speeds to Core / HBM on resume but if you connect an external display it always works perfectly and can even run games with the flickering built in display next to it. I also noticed that the static would appear if you allowed the display to turn off while the machine was still running. It may be that EDID isn't being read from the Vega56 bios properly and a good mode with correct timing isn't being restore when the display gets turned back on.

 

You can solve the Freesync issue by running Windows Update, it will install the missing driver to enable it.

 

In my case, this just ends up installing 'generic drivers' which replaces AMD (or Acer stock) drivers and kills Radeon Settings permanently (requiring a clean install of the drivers to regain access to Radeon Settings).

 

I received reply from AMD Tech support and this is what they said:
" Thank you for your email.

I understand your concern,

Please note, AMD provides a reference for AMD Mobility Radeon graphics drivers with limited support for laptop specific features and functions. This is not intended to be used as a replacement for the notebook manufacturer's driver. To know more, please visit https://community.amd.com/docs/DOC-1336

Also, AMD recommends using the graphics drivers provided by your laptop’s manufacturer as the manufacturer may customize the drivers to support the built-in display and the features and functions specific to the notebook. Customized graphics drivers are available for download from most notebook manufacturer's web site.

If the issue still persists

i suggest you to report your issue here: https://www.amdsurveys.com/se/5A1E27D23A3DE966
"

I did report the issue at amdsurveys link they provided, detailing the problem (but I already did that a while ago when the issue started appearing the first time with 0 reply).

That was not a helpful reply - it was actually useless, since I already knew that clean installing the GPU drivers wouldn't work.
Seriously, they go on suggesting AMD Mobility Radeon Graphics drivers even after I told them the laptop uses customized desktop Vega 56 and Ryzen 2700 and is a completely different unit vs standard laptops.

This is what I wrote as a reply to tech support:

"Your mobility drivers would not work for this unit since it uses a custom Vega 56 GPU (which is a DESKTOP grade GPU that was modified by Acer).

Acer also stopped supporting the unit shortly after releasing it and therefore have NOT updated their GPU drivers since.
As usual, because AMD releases new drivers frequently which include many new gaming optimizations, it is necessary to be kept updated, and up until you started releasing Navi GPU's, the driver upgrades worked flawlessly without any static noise issues.
It is only that the latest drivers are causing this static noise problem.

Please research what you have done differently in regards to the drivers (since you started releasing Navi GPU's) that might have affected Vega 56 in this fashion.

Kind regards"

 

I also had this issue when I did a clean install of Win10, it was resolved by removing drivers with DDU, installing the latest drivers and then running Windows Update, as soon as you do that the Panel will be recognized as Freesync compatible.

 

I just destroyed gtx 1070 and i can beat stock vega 64 or even gtx 1080 if i want but i dont know if vrms are capable for that clocks. This is my record.


EDIT
I bet even stock gtx 1080 performance in some benchmarks.

Superposition 1080p Extreme


3D mark DX11 Fire Strike


3D Mark DX11 Fire Strike Ultra

I almost beat my old fully oced GTX1080 in graphic score
https://www.3dmark.com/compare/fs/20402553/fs/18865628



3D Mark DX12 Time spy

 

Yeah, I see notebooks with AMD graphics haven’t changed much since Alienware used AMD’s M200 series graphics. Almost 7 years has gone and not much have changed since then.

 

What do you mean?
Aside from this relatively new issue that cropped up with AMD releasing Navi, their drivers were quite good.
And yes, they have released Mobility Drivers for their mobile product line rather late, but as I said, my laptop is an 'oddity' of sorts as it uses desktop grade hw... but some people apparently also complained that they can't use newest drivers with Vega 64 because they cause black screens, and performance degradation among other things.

This is the first time I noticed AMD actively 'dropping the ball' in regards to support of previous generation of hw in favor of new one (if that's what's happening).
Previously, they seemed to have had a good track record on this front with older GPU's experiencing improvements in performance.

 

A few years ago AW Dell used AMD graphics cards in their models. Always driverer problems and few or almost no releases of new drivers. Download drivers from AMD's own page and hope it worked properly become a big pain in the ass for those who went with AMD graphics in their machines. Dell washed their hands and said just use their old drivers. See... Those with AMD graphics was left alone. This wasn't the big problem for those who went with Nvida graphics.

My "laptop is an 'oddity' of sorts ". I know... You don't find much of AMD graphic cards in todays gaming books. And I don't talk about those with deskop chips.

 

I didn't mean that the laptop was an oddity in the sense that it has AMD GPU... more to the point, it has a modified DESKTOP GPU in a laptop in a certain configuration.
And its not like NV laptops didn't have their own issues, but with an all AMD hw, you'd think it would be easier.

But this issue is mainly down to the OEM in that case because Acer was the one that made the laptop and set it up like this - so it should be their responsibility to provide latest drivers... but OEM's (as you know) stop supporting laptops fairly fast - we can't blame AMD for this.

Acer's original drivers DO work fine, and Express upgrade of AMD's own drivers (at least 19.5.2 version) works fine too (Freesync is operational and there is no Static Noise upon waking the laptop up from sleep)... any newer driver from AMD's website however doesn't work properly (either there is performance loss, or static noise issue with drivers that started showing up when Navi was released).

 

Yeah, I know. But this isn't a big problem for those with Nvidia graphics. The main problem with AMD graphics. There ain't much gaming laptops out there who use it. If 50% of all gaming laptops come with AMD graphics I would think this would be a no issue.

My old P870 have the 980 desktop card and LGA socket. Doesn't matter if I use Mobile or desktop graphics drivers.

Guess which one is for AMD graphics in older AW 15?

AMD has always been the stepchild with no love.

 

Those AMD equipped machines were dead out the gates. Basically nil support from the get go and from a company that is known to fry their own machines within a couple years time or less.

The m5100 and m6100 both overclocked quite well and driver support was spot on. It's because of those cards that I wanted a wx7100 over anything Nvidia had as AMD is way better when it comes to accessing basic control panel options VS Nvidia that still since long before Fermi takes 5-10 seconds to load and w/e settings changed require application restart to take effect where AMD does not.

Comparing Alienware derivatives to the helios 500 is swinging a bit wide I think.