Acer Predator (Vega 56+Ryzen 2) Helios 500

just wondering... Acer gave the 3000series CPU a skip. Will there be plans for new Predator with 4000seires to give the Vega56 GPU another push?

 

Not likely. The hardware is already capable of supporting zen2 and likely the future zen3 designs, the problem is simply rebuilding the BIOS to add a newer AGESA package. Even the current hardware setup would perform better with a BIOS update and Acer simply doesn't care.
Sadly the AGESA isn't modular unless most parts of a modern UEFI so only those building the system can do it so the question is: could Acer could be encouraged to do the work...

 

This.
B450 in Helios 500 is more than capable enough and ROM chip large enough to have Zen 2 (and probably Zen 3 - at least any 65W CPU).
Acer just doesn't care (they abandoned the unit roughly 8 months after releasing it).
The Helios 500 Ryzen/Vega was sort of an 'experiment' for them... a successful one too given the fact that people pretty much gobbled them all up (which makes me question WHY would Acer decide to abandon it).

I have to say this though: Acer definitely reworked the cooling in Helios 500 for AMD to suit it... its one of the reasons why its one of the coolest and quietest laptops on the market (not even the Intel/NV version of Helios 500 is as cool and quiet as AMD version).

Its such a shame Acer decided to abandon it (as Zen 2 and 3 would easily give gaming a nice push forward along with much faster RAM).

I like Vega 56 though. Its quite powerful for gaming (especially compute), and its been well optimized down to 120W (plus we have a nice range of overclocking and undervolting it as well to GTX 1080 level - or very close to it)..

I do have to wonder though... would it be possible for us to integrate needed AGESA microcode updates ourselves into the BIOS for Zen 2 and Zen 3 (possibly erase Zen 1 entirely since the Helios 500 came with Zen +)?
Mind you, we'd need to extract the existing BIOS (safely), unlock it, then find the AGESA microcode updates (does AMD even publish those on the Internet freely or do they just give it out to motherboard vendors directly?) and find a way to integrate them into this BIOS.

Its a bit of a workload for us to do... we'd need someone who's experienced with BIOS-es though. One thing that may play to our 'advantage' is the fact Acer used a desktop grade mobo, so that might make things easier for us.

 

Deks, welcome back

Deks i agree with you. This laptop is still one of the best in the market, have great gaming performance and with all modifications you can get 20-30% more performance in CPU and GPU department. I almost reached rtx 2070m and i9 10980HK performance (few % lower), but still i cant forget how lazy are in Acer. With 3900x cpu we can gain 50%+ more multicore performance with lower power consumption than r7 2700x. I am happy with my Predator 500, they works almost 6 months 24/7 almost without issue but this is my last Acer product for sure becuse we dont have any software and bios update for more than a year. Outdated GPU driver is a mess, BIOS looks almost the same which i had in Acer Ferrari ONE netbook, even important PredatorSense is bugfest and Acer Quick Acess (QAA Agent.exe) have memory leak.

 

Yeah, with Zen 2 and 3900 CPU (non-X, as I think the cooling wouldn't necessarily be able to handle 105W TDP CPU) alone we'd be able to increase performance of the GPU considerably (add to that 3200MhZ RAM with low timings and we'd be golden).

I don't mind skipping out on Zen 3 (necessarily), but Zen 2 would have been a nice upgrade if Acer cared.

I know they stopped supporting it, but perhaps if we write to Acer (again), maybe they could be persuaded to release a viable BIOS update.

 

Acer ain't going to update the BIOS on the laptop to support newer Ryzen CPUs.
Acer is the kind of big computer company that churns out ton of new laptop models twice a year.
They still have issues with poor motherboard quality in some laptops, an issue that they had for one decade and then some.
By now you should know what kind of company Acer is, yes the Helios is a good laptop but even someone who sells pebbles for a living will eventually offer a gem stone or two among its collection of expendables.

Sent fra min SM-G970F via Tapatalk

 

Yes I know.
Its just such a waste since virtually no other laptop on the market offers this kind of cooling and quiet fans.

 

Which is why I asked, will there be a replacement with refreshed chipset on new model(in plan or not) with other components such as the same cooling design, and body, if possible GPU retained...

 

This is just a gander but Acer might refresh it with RX 5700M but they are waiting for the GPU to be made available first.
Vega 56 mobile is no longer manufactured by AMD so there no way they will release a refresh model with one.
5600M is pretty much better in every way though

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One option would be bribing Acer to update the BIOS. Are there enough interest to make that possible? Unlikely even though it would be a recompile plus test cycle at most. With enough money plus voiding warranty plus them being able to use it as some PR thing perhaps?
Another would be finding someone experienced in making custom BIOS solutions, someone making embedded AMD systems perhaps. However the system would need to be reverse engineered which adds costs, I've not even been able to find the schematics for some reason.
A third would be hacking a suitable BIOS with the right support already - like that of the Clevo Ryzen system. Still transplanting critical parts like the embedded controller communication may be hard.

 

I would not be surprised if Acer made a Helios 700 with 4900H and 5700M. I doubt it would support Zen2 AM4 because I feel like the only reason they went with Zen1+ AM4 was because it was the only AMD option competitive with the 8750H/8950HK at the time. Given that Dell says they are launching their G5 SE with 5600M on May 21st whatever the holdup on these AMD GPU's is hopefully over.

I also fear that even if it did have Zen2 AM4 you would be faced with Tctl/Tdie fluctuations which will make the cooling system not operate as smoothly as it did on the Helios 500 AMD. You would likely have to have a custom fan curve with a constant speed until slightly above the max fluctuation threshold.

 

If Acer does refresh the Helios 500 with Zen 2 and Navi, they may have been waiting for the B550 motherboards which AMD took a lot of time to release (however, AMD's recent statement mentioned that these mobos won't support current CPU's).

So, this will probably make Acer wait for Zen 3 to come out before they use the B550 (as its cheaper than X570) and a desktop CPU of 65W calibre such as whatever equivalent of 3900 (non X) might be on Zen 3.

At that point, RDNA 2 will also come out, so they may want to use that GPU instead (similarly TDP limited as Vega 56 in Helios 500).

The Helios 500 is a desktop replacement machine, designed to work with DESKTOP grade CPU's (which is why they are socketed).
If Acer continues this paradigm, then we are likely looking at 2021 for a potential replacement which has Zen 3, RDNA 2 and B550.

Any other laptop Acer decides to use with Zen 2 will probably be a new machine using Zen 2 mobile parts such as U and H APU's and possibly 5600M/5700M.

I think the cooling in the H500 should be able to handle Zen 2 and Zen 3 at 65W. Given existing temperatures on Zen+... I don't think Acer would have too many problems modifying the cooling (which was already designed for an all AMD system) to work with Zen 2/Zen3 on a BIOS level alone and compensate for the higher heat emitted by the more denser circuitry as a result of 7nm... If anything, the maximum temperatures might increase by about 5-10 degrees Celsius, but this would still be well within tolerances (as it would result in about 80-85 degrees Celsius maximum temperatures for the CPU when fully stressed - and possibly GPU, which I doubt because the GPU would have lower frequencies and voltages than the full desktop version anyway so it would probably end up with same temps).


On another end, I just Express installed the latest Radeon Pro Enterprise 20.Q2 drivers on top of Q1... and everything works fine (didn't do a DDU as I didn't think its a huge update that warranted it).

Sleep mode still works (as does Freesync).

My screen ended up being dimmed to very low levels when the OS restarted, but the mouse icon was showing normal brightness (despite the display brightness indicator being at maximum), but restarting Windows fixed this (so if you do an express update, don't be alarmed if your screen is dimmed - just restart the OS).

 

B550 supports Zen2 just fine...

 

Not according to this:
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...ards-are-incompatible-with-earlier-ryzen-cpus

 

Are we looking at the same article?



It says so right there, “AMD Ryzen 3000 Series Processors” under B550.

 

Ah.
My bad.
For some reason, didn't see the Zen 2 extending to B550

 

I gave up and went with an Asus G14 (4900HS/2060 max-q). It's faster on the cpu side, slower on the gpu side (stock vs. Predator heavily overclocked). End result is about 10fps lower in Warzone, which honestly isn't bad considering the weight of the laptop and power brick combined is less than just the power brick for the Acer. Would have stuck with the Acer if it had zen2 support but getting nearly the same performance in a portable package with 10h battery life when doing normal laptop stuff is worth the switch.

 

*sigh*
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1580...ryzen-4000-cpus-on-b450-and-x470-motherboards

 

LOL, you will never see Intel and Nvidia act like this and they get a free pass from people, funny how it works, business for AMD does hinge on their reputation I suppose compared to either of their competitors.

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Just a shame that can't seem to get acer on board...

 

With enough money it'd at least not be impossible however how many are ready to sink nontrivial amounts into a project? Don't think there are many owners in the first place.

 

Far as we know, Acer never made a lot of them to begin with in fact there were shortages when it launched probably because more people bought them than Acer expected.
Thankfully RX5600M and RX5700M are coming very soon

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It was already mentioned some time ago that Ryzen4k CPU will be supported, but only with the aid of updated bios to achieve it's best performance...

 

Even we see the upcoming arrival of 5600m and 5700m, with so far the announcement from DELL on employing the 5600M, we're still not seeing or forseeing the possibilities of other machine makers to use Radeon GPUs.
MSI conservatively using the 5500m,
DELL with 5600m,
5700M will be from?

 

No AMD never said explicitly that all AM4 chipsets would support all processors, recently they said that all chipsets prior to 5xx series wouldn't support Zen 3 then changing their story.
And it's not a question of performing well it's one of working at all - otherwise we could use Zen 2 processors now at a slight performance impact.

 

AMD now said they will enable support on B450 and X470 too for Zen3 - and I imagine it will (again) be up to mobo OEM's to release BIOS updates.
Here's the source:
https://www.extremetech.com/computi...n-3-ryzen-4000-cpus-on-x470-b450-motherboards

I can live with entire Zen 1 (and Zen + APU's) support being kicked out of the BIOS in favor of Zen 2 and Zen 3 (non APU compatibility).

Acer would only need to include support for Zen 2/Zen3 65W desktop CPU's (we don't even need APU's since our display is not connected to the socket so it wouldn't be able to make use of an iGP in an APU - which is a shame as I could see a 65W TDP Zen 3 8c/16th APU with RDNA 2 iGP being useful for battery life).

Just imagine putting a 4700x (65W 8c/16th) or 4900 (non X - 65W - 12c/24th)) inside the Predator Helios 500 with faster RAM.
Phew... the performance on this thing would JUMP in games (especially since we're on 1080p still - heck you could even connect an external 2k monitor if you needed to and used Vega 56 on that too) and productivity would skyrocket.

Hm... I wonder if Smart Shift would work in that case seeing how both Zen 3 and Vega 56 are AMD products.

 

Smart Shift requires firmware as well as certain products, I'm guessing it will be APUs + AMD dGPUs only. The socketed laptop market is small as it is, even more so for AMD.

Besides I think Smart Shift makes more sense in notebooks that have limited power/thermal capabilities. DTRs, particularly this one, don't suffer like thin and lights do.

 

Indeed, but I still think SmartShift would have been useful if it works with new generation of Zen (3) desktop CPU's and Radeon GPU's.

Regardless, all of this is sadly moot since Acer is unlikely to update the BIOS.
I guess we could pester them again.

 

I've been running the COVID-19 project on Folding@Home for over 2 hrs now on both CPU and GPU, and I have to say I'm impressed with the temperatures.
Initially, the CPU temp climbed (slowly) to 81 degrees C, however, after propping up the front of the laptop a bit on my stand (which doesn't have a cooler), it quickly dropped to below 75 degrees C (Averaging about 72.7 or within that ballpark ever since).

The GPU is at insanely low temps... and you can hear the fans, but not on a level that would be considered 'disruptive'. I can easily listen to audio on the laptop speakers like this without the fans getting in the way - during actual gaming the fans are even less audible.

Cannot say what the exact db rating is, but definitely under 50... maybe 45?

Why oh WHY can't OEM's make all laptops which have AMD hw (all AMD hw especially) to behave like this in regards to temperatures?

 

Actually, it seem that SmarShift is a hw level feature and would work with most AMD GPU's.
So, if Zen 3 has SmartShift integrated into it by default, it could benefit PC's and laptops with AMD dGPU's.

 

Now i am really mad at Acer, Patriot releases new ram with 3000mhz, 32gb per stick which we can run 64gb in dual channel. https://assets.website-files.com/5c...1_PVS432G300C8S_Sku Sheet_041620 Copyable.pdf

And with ryzen 3900x, we can run 128GB in this workstation maschine . I think i will never ever buy an Acer laptop again.

 

Im browsing xmg apex 15 forum and still wishing Acer to release bios update for our Helios 500... Our cooling solution can easily handle even the 3950x.

 

Yes they can, but vrms are the problem. The best way is to oc cpu to fixed clock, then limit to max 120w and gpu 180w.

With 3900x we can use ryzen at 3900-4000mhz on all cores, 3950x at 3700-3800mhz on all cores.

 

I think the cooling should be able to moderately manage 3900x and 3950x... if not, then it could most certainly handle them if they are running both in ECO mode (65W TDP).
I think someone else tried using 2700x in this laptop and it behaved fine at 3.9 or 4Ghz (so, technically, the laptop should be able to handle 65-105W TDP Zen2/Zen3 CPU's at stock - but some of the 105W CPU's might have to be tweaked a bit to prevent voltage spiking).

Personally, I don't see the need to jump all the way to 3950X or Zen 3 equivalent of that CPU... mainly due to how cost prohibitive it is (it would be nice to have sure, but too expensive).
3900x and/or Zen 3 equivalent would be far more affordable (as it's a minor increase in price compared to 3700x - I expect this to extend to Zen 3 - and its fast enough (especially if paired with fast RAM).

I already messaged Acer on Twitter about upgrading the BIOS to support Zen 2 and to also release an update for Zen 3 (Along with including XMP profiles and higher clocked RAM) - but I received no reply.
Quickest way for any company to reply is to pester them on Twitter - this is what I suggest we do. Pester Acer about Zen2/Zen3 BIOS updates, XMP profiles and high clocked RAM on Twitter.

If they do upgrade the BIOS support to Zen 2 and Zen 3, I'd recommend holding off until Zen 3 for upgrade.
The GPU can remain at 120W TDP limitation (as it can be easily overclocked to surpass GTX 1080 and reach GTX 2070 Max-q levels of performance without exceeding 120W TDP - and it would still remain very cool and quiet).

 

EDIT:
What I originally wanted to post here was the fact I experienced random BSOD's.
They seemed to have started by installing Killer drivers although I didn't notice it at the time.

This is the name of the file which caused the BSOD:
rfeco10x64.sys

When I got the laptop it was a bit refurbished (just never used), so it came with Windows generic drivers.
Upon installing Killer drivers, I noticed the wifi speed dropped a bit - which was odd to say the least, and I started having random BSOD's - but the name of the file behind the BSOD's eluded me.

So, once I removed the Killer drivers yesterday and the Wifi is running on Generic drivers, the system now seems to be behaving as it should.

 

Hello guys! Was browsing Acer forums and found the post that helped me get latest Adrenalin drivers without static noise. Freesync is working too via CRU. Quoting that post here. That guy made my day.
" Ok, I don't really have the time go back and figure out what actually happened, but with the latest driver, 20.5.1 and some additional playing around, I have everything working. I suspect it has to do with Microsoft changing the monitor drivers, but can't be sure unless I go back to the original drivers and start looking. Who knows when/if I'll get around to it. An earlier post got me thinking about it. Someone mentioned changing the screen profile in CRU of the Lenovo monitor. I realized that at one time, my screen was listed as a Lenovo monitor in device manager. Someplace along the way, it got changed to "generic plug and play" and poof, snow on restart from sleep and no freesync. CRU worked for a while by adding freesync range to the generic plug and play (or as I call it, shrug and pray). Finally, with the 20 series drivers, my screen went dark on boot. A complete wipe and clean install fixed the dark screen, but I was back to a snowy screen on sleep and no freesync. CRU no longer worked to change it. Fast forward to last week. Been home, so haven't used the Predator in a couple of months. Went to update everything on it, and still no luck. That's when I read the post mentioning the Lenovo monitor. I went to device manager and looked for it. I could not find the listing in my system files, so I looked around. In the standard monitor types (uncheck the box for show compatible hardware) I found "Digital Display Panel 1920x1080 60hz" in the list. I selected this panel, rebooted, No freesync. Set freesync range with the CRU utility, rebooted (one time had to reboot twice after windows install stock driver), and Freesync was back. Then tried to put the system to sleep, and lo and behold, it worked normally. For the first time since I bought this thing, the graphics and display work normally with the latest Radeon Adrenalin drivers. "

 

I can confirm that it works (although it could have been separated into paragraphs like I did here to make it easier to read).

I just tried it on mine and the latest 20.5.1 drivers are working properly. Sleep Mode and Freesync are working.

Oh and, AMD released new chipset drivers too... you might want to get them.

 

Hey Deks, any answer from Acer on Twitter?

 

Can you post a link with a successful upgrade to 2700X in this laptop. Thanks.

 

Nope.
I suggest everyone with the unit sends acer a Twitter message to pester them

 

I will write on support

I am the link. 2700x user I have oced to 3.9Ghz on all cores, you can push more but i reached power limit because of 180w on gpu side and 125w on cpu side (100% utilization on prime95) .

 

Excellent

Acer definitely needs to put both Zen 2 and a Zen 3 support. I would ideally like a Zen 3 3900x equivalent (to replace the 2700), fast RAM support in BIOS and XMP profiles in it too.

And then we can shut people up who keep saying AMD hw runs 'hot' and 'loud'.

-well, we can easily do that now too (because we DO have the quietest and coolest laptop on the market already).

 

The chipset update gave me Around 15 minutes extra battery life. I guess they improved power management.

 

Mmmm... For the moment, those who doesn't know about hte RegEdit hack, or those who feel that the RegEdit hack a hassle... they'll be still commenting that the AMD High Performance CPUs is too hot to handle.

 

Great news. Being limited to old/OEM drivers eventually makes your laptop unusable with newer games. And of course, it was probably all caused by a stupid driver update pushed through WU!

 

To be fair, the regedit hack shouldn't really be necessary if OEM's bothered installing proper cooling into laptops in the first place.
I mean seriously, AMD has equal or better efficient hw than both Intel and NV and people STILL complain that AMD's hw is 'too hot to handle' (I know this is pure ignorance speaking, but it is still VERY annoying because these people don't take the time to actually STUDY new hw, and how laptop cooling is entirely OEM's department).

The Eluktronics laptop is using 4800H and RTX 2060 - the 2060 in that unit can boost to 110W (for reference, the 5600M is rated at 90-100W - but in DELL, its reaching barely 70-80W - hence the performance similarity to 1660TI, whereas it should really be comparable to 2060).
Oh and the Eluktronics laptop is slightly less thick and less wider than G5 15 SE (but its cooling is really good).

The temps in the Eluktronics laptop are normal... CPU goes up to 88 degrees C when maxed out, but the GPU goes up to 75 deg C I think.

Dell just has very poor quality control, garbage cooling (which is a trend for them), or they intentionally sabotaged the G5 15 SE to make it look bad and unappealing (I mean, they DO have to test these units to make sure they are working as intended, so they probably KNEW this is a problem).

 

AMD drivers worked up until version 19.5.2. if I'm not mistaken.
Newer drivers (when Navi launched) caused static noise problems.. although a workaround was to use the Enterprise PRO drivers which were latest and didn't cause static noise on the display (those are arguably more useful for content creation, however, they weren't overtly optimized in regards to UI - but were producing pretty much same performance in games).

Oh and I tried installing the drivers by shutting off Internet during driver installation, but without the display alteration in control panel, it still caused static noise).

Now that we have latest Adrenaline drivers fully up and running with that mod, its good.

 

Can't install the chipset driver, just get some error. The driver package is listed in "apps & features" but the drivers aren't updated. :/

 

try removing existing chipset drivers and then installing latest ones.
I was able to install latest on top of the previous version

Hehe... certainly a nice bonus... what did that push the battery life to now?

I would imagine it would be similarly good or better on Zen 2 and Zen 3 because they might be idling at lower power levels.

Its just a shame Acer never connected the display to the socket. With Zen 3 APU's we could probably install a powerful 8c/16th APU with navi IGP (RDNA2 based perhaps?) and gain a LOT more on the battery life... plus, we'd also have SmartShift with that too.

I think desktop replacements should have the display connected to both the socket and the dGPU just in case in the future.

 

From 1 hour and 30 mins to 1 hour and 40 -50 minutes. Enough to move laptop around the house. Thats with battery saver on.