TM8204 users: Background noise research

Could you all do some screen tests? I need to know if your LCDs can display colors correctly. The problem was mentioned before as "background noise" and is clearly visible if you check grey levels in 1% steps. It is very easy to notice with any screen test: some colors/shades of grey are not displayed as solid (blocks are filled with grain/noise) and it looks like GPU uses combination of two shades to get estimate color. It makes 8204 USELESS in anything related to photography/graphics. I need to know if you all have this issue. Check the driver and bios version + screen type, manufacture date etc. Thank you.

 

OK so i tried different shades of black... They are all displayed funny. When looked at closely, i could tell that there was a mix between gray/black/white in order to create black. It's really wierd... as if someone spilled milk all over it. It can not be seen easily, you have to look closer. But it is there. I set a F.E.A.R. wallpaper with this soldier... most of it is black... i could see the mix of colors to make a shade of black. Probably a killer for photography but is completely harmless for people like me... all i do is play and run tests on the computer...

 

Thanks. I need to know your driver/bios version and screen model. I'm tryin' to find out if there is any kind of relation... or if we all have the same problem...

 

Ok well my bios is 3312, the build date is 03/06 and the screen... i dont know. i have to look it up. Its a sumsung -> i know that.
I think i might help you in your investigation. It is not a trend with the screen models and the manufacturer. It is the X1600... The processor draws shades of black in a really funny way. This is an issue which is related ONLY to the mobile versions of X1600 and ALL laptops equipped with this card will display the black color in a wierd way. I, however, may be wrong. But thats what i have heard...

 

Just a thought... Since this does seem to be somewhat driver related (since it happens more with the omega drivers) I wonder if the nx9420's drivers will install on the 8204.

Also, has anyone tried underclocking to see if the noise persists. You could try ATITool: http://www.techpowerup.com/atitool/

I don't own an 8204 yet, so can't try myself...

Anyhow, carry on with the purpose of the thread.. to try and find a relationship.

 

I wouldnt install GateWay drivers on an Acer machine... they are all customized. There will be significant underperformance and issues.

I dont know if it has anything to do with drivers... Before i did a fresh install on my 8204, i had Omega drivers. The background noise was persistant. If i was to launch the ATI Tray Tools, it increased.
After a fresh install, i installed Omega drivers again... the noise became almost none-existant. I did not do a bios-flash though. Dont even know if i am supposed to do it after a system-wipe.

 

It doesn't look like general X1600 issue, since we have at least one problem aware user who switched to X1600 equipped HP and confirmed that there is no problem. There could be some kind of incompatibility between x1600 and displays used by Acer, so it is important to get reports from people who swapped their screens...

 

123 views and only 2 persons decided to share their opinion????
If don't see the noise just post it! Maybe we'll find some kind of regularity...

 

Can we have some sort of "test" image that someone has used that they HAVE seen the noise on? I've got no idea if I've got the "noise" but haven't really got any idea what images I may or may not see it on (and digital camera pictures are NOT the best test since they have noise anyway).

Also need consistency of "viewing" program (I suggest windows Preview) so that we make sure it's not just some software issue with whatever software is being used.

 

If you want some screen tests just send me a private message with your e-mail

 

Check this link, background should be solid color. If you see any grain/noise you have this issue...
http://www.thegamebooks.com/ezdloads.php
You can download simple test from here:
http://freepctech.com/rode/004.shtml

 

Okay, tried the PHP file since my 8204 isn't online right now (I'll see if I remember to test it when I get home) but using the Nokia test thing, seems to work just fine, all of thes tests appear to be okay, which one should I be looking for to determine that it's off?

 

Take look at Brightness&Contrast - every block should be solid color. Only few of those blocks are perfectly solid on TM8204.

 

Well if mine aren't solid colour, they are very close to it, I certainly can't tell that they aren't a solid colour.

This is on my 8204.

 

OK, so I saw no noise on the website background. The brightness and contrast Nokia test did show some subtle dapples in 2 or 3 of the boxes, which is what you're talking about I'm guessing, but with my 50+ yo eyes it took some looking to decide whether it was me or the display. If this is what you're obsessing over, you should just get yourself a new computer - one that probably costs more, because you have pretty high standards. But don't mind me, I started in computers a few years before the IBM PC came out, so my standards on this issue are probably pretty low.

Build date 01/06. Samsung LTN screen. Latest ATI drivers on the Acer Europe ftp site, BIOS 3312.

- Ed

 

After a fresh Windows install, BIOS flash, NTFS formatting, Omega driver installing and much pain in the ass... my 8204 has changed the way it works for ever. I think there is like a 25% performance gain and there is no more background noise, no more of ANYTHING even remotely associated with the trendy issues.

 

I don't think that my standards are so high - I'm a photographer, so I cannot accept luma noise produced by GPU/screen/driver or whatever it is! I had a couple and I used many notebooks in my life and none of them had this issue. Even really cheap ones. I'm able to calibrate the screen so color reproduction is acceptable but I can't use the notebook because of that noise...

 

I guess... the laptop doesnt suit your purpose then. I am sorry for that. It turned out to be a great machine for me... Battlefront II on max settings...

 

I still hope that there is the cure for this issue... That's why I started this thread... You said that the noise is gone after clean install. I thought so, after my last OS reinstallation. Before, I had the noise everywhere - it was after I installed Omega driver, I guess - I had it even in the movies and it was extremaly annoying. Then I reinstalled the system and it was no noise at all! I was back to Acer 6.1 driver and it seemed to be driver related problem then... But after that there was a thread on different forum and I've checked website linked above - there was the background noise again. It was on all screen test that I've made - some colors/shades (mostly dark grey) simply cannot be displayed properly! I've learned how to recreate that most annoying form of noise (from the beginning) also. You can turn it on when you activate HQ overlay mode in Windows Media Player 10 - you'll get noise in every movie! It looks like Omega driver turned that mode on everywhere then.
Anyway, the noise is still there and it's wrong - especially for me. I'm trying to find the way to eliminate it...

I've found a better version of that Nokia test - you can download it from here:
http://www.softpedia.com/progDownload/Nokia-Monitor-Test-Download-464.html

Clould you check it again Vlad? Maybe you found the solution... I really hope to... I don't have any Windows CD to make clean reinstall and try it now... Although, there is another user who made clean reinstallation and experienced noise also... I'm really confused...

 

Could you check brightness&contrast screen in that newer version of Nokia test and post your driver/bios version, build date and screen type? Thanks.

 

Jaad,

Clearly our requirements in a laptop differ, given that high-quality display of photos is essential to you. I understand your "obsession" with the issue in this case. Sorry the machine hasn't worked out for you.

- Ed

 

Same result, if there is "noise" I sure as hell can't see it.

Running v1.3312 of the Bios, according to Acer system information the Video is M56? Not sure if that's the screen or not.

Driver for video card is Omega 3.8.221 (has Driver Version: 8.221.0.0)

MFG Date is 06/01

 

M56 is X1600 not recognized properly by Omega... If your MFG Date is 06/01 (same as mine) you propably have LTN screen... So you don't have any noise... Even when you turn on HQ overlay in WMP10? I mean... That's really strange that some people have this issue and some don't, even with exactly the same hardware and software... I have more reports from notebooksforums.com - someone says that he has noise in Windows and doesn't have it using Linux. I would say that it looks like software rather then hardware issue then... What do you think?

 

WMP10? Presume you mean Windows Media Player, in which case, no clue, never use that POS software.

Anywhere else I can turn on the HQ overlay without starting WMP?

 

Hi Jaadnn

I cannot help you with the noise problem, but I can show you how to creat a CD for a fresh install with the stuff that's already on your machine (or prefereblay recovery CDs).
See my post in http://www.notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=143068

Since you have an 8204, you probably need to download the intel storage drivers and put them on floppy so you can press F6 to loaad them during Windows installation.

After the installation with an onmodified version of this thype of CD you have only windows standard drivers, whihc isn't much (no sound, no wireess, etc.),so you can start installing the drivers one by one. I would suggest using the update driver procedure in device manager.
Start from the top of the device tree (showing devices by connection), and make sure you have unpacked al your driver files in an accessible directory (Winrar from rarsoft.com can unpack most of them,even some self installers.
Install the drivers only as a starter (leave out any executables, except for the ones installed by the .INF files themselves).

Run your test program after each driver installation.

In principle you can install vga straight after the chipset, so you don't have to go all the way down the route, to see if it'shardware or software.

Hope this is clearer than mud

Note that your don't have to discard your current windows installation, just cret about 10-15Gb space for a new one and use a partition editor to hide them completely for each other (again see link to post).

I hope for you you can sort this out for yourself. Unfortunately warrenty doesn't cover fitness for purpose, at least not after two weeks (here in the UK), and no protection for business customers at all.

Cheers

Drio

PS coming froman engineering backgroiund I can imagine 3 hardware causes (apart from the obvious defect):
- interferingradios (especially the ones in your machine or wireless mice/keuboards)
- thermal noise (e.g most machines have a really ad screen after coming out of hibernation when but into hibernation while fairly hot)
- and then I forgot the third one ... (oh yes, circuitry also produce electro magnetic fields, so given the fact that it starts after someHQ overlay is set on, see if this is a separate chip, requiring a separate driver.

BTW, are these Omega drivers really beter than ATI's own drivers?

 

I don't believe I have the noise issue.
Manufactured 06/03
Bios 3315 (came with 3312)
ATI 8.231 (came with 8.01 I think)

My screen is the LTN and does have a small amount of light leakage at the bottom and a small (I mean very small) amount of darkness in the bottom corners.

I don't use WMP but does HQ overlay make that big a difference? Have you tried using another player and not turning on HQ overlay after doing a system reboot?

 

It's not a matter of using or not using WMP10 - turning on HQ overlay in WMP10 shows the problem: something is wrong with colors translation. I'm trying to find out if it's hardware or software issue, so it's important to check that mode especially if you don't see the noise in any other situation. Personally, I have never used WMP before, but it's not as bad as I thought it is...

 

The screen on my TM8204 has fine horizontal white lines, very subtle. I just had the very same problem fixed on my Powerbook G4, and the fix (under warranty) was to replace the entire LCD panel. This was the conclusion of literally months of discussion and exploration on the Apple discussion forums. It's now also Apple's "unofficial" fix.

It took me some time and effort to convince Apple that this was really a problem - you don't notice it looking at the display casually, except maybe that everything looks a bit dirty.
I can see it clearly on photos and when looking at the screen closely. From a distance, it just looks like there are some Jpeg artifacts on the screen but when you look closer you can see fine white lines. These lines show up mostly on intermediary colors, never on solid black, solid green, solid anything, so on photos it's most visible. Definitely disqualifies the display from any kind of design work.

I am going to try and get Acer to replace the screen, using the same tactic I used with Apple. A guy named Keith made a very simple image which shows the problem clearly: The image has alternating white and grey stripes, so it appears solid grey. The right side of the image has these alternating stripes offset by one pixel. On a normal display, the one pixel offset does not change the grey value, so everything looks to be the same grey. On a screen with the white lines issue, such as my Powerbook G4 and my TravelMate8204, one half of the image will look significantly brighter than the other. It's very clear to see. The reason is that on one half of the display, the LCD's white lines are on top of the white lines of the image and so don't change the grey value, whereas on the other side they are on top of the grey lines, making them lighter and so making the whole image brighter.

Image is here: http://homepage.mac.com/nikster/FileSharing14.html

I set that as my desktop background when returing the Powerbook to make it very obvious.

Note that it only works if the image is zoomed at 100%, otherwise you will just see weird compression artifacts.

Another trick you can demo with this image is opening it in Photoshop and dragging the window around. As the LCDs white lines interfere with either the left or the right side of the image while you drag it, the grey values "flicker". Again, this only happens on a broken display. My new Powebook LCD panel has none of these issues.

Try it on your TM8402! I am not going to accept this screen.

Keith's original report here: http://tinyurl.com/qw2t8

 

PS: I would be interested if newer models have the fine lines issue as well, try my test image (see other post). I guess that Acer follows the same strategy as Apple with this, which is to replace the LCD for people who really complain and otherwise keep quiet. That way they don't have to fix the screens for people who never notice the issue.

 

Grey lines are different thing than background noise. Grey lines are well known problem with LTN screens, but background noise looks like something specific to 8204. Wrong "color translation" between GPU and LCD?

 

I wish someone had a closeup of a screenshot of a screen with the "problem", because for the life of me, looking at my screen I can't tell if there's a problem or not.
I suppose that means there isn't in my case, but it would be nice to know for sure.

*EDIT*
Ok, in running the Nokia test again, I see a little noise in the "Brightness and Contrast" screen, only on the 2%,4%,6% and 8% screens. The 2% is the worst. The odd percentages (1,3,5,7,9) are a solid colour.

Is this what you are all talking about?

 

Yes, exactly.

 

@Mr.X:
Could you post your notebook's build date, screen type and what is a driver and bios version?

 

Ok since you insist that lines are a different issue - I definitely have noise, and it is visible from a distance.

So I thought I check the Powerbook's high res screen and yes, it does have the noise as well. However, the noise is so faint that it's almost impossible to see on the Powerbook. On the Acer, I can see it with the naked eye, so to speak.

To the people who don't know if they have the issue: You almost certainly have it, but what's the difference if it doesn't bother you? I assume that there are screens with lots of noise and screens with very little and that on the latter, it's really hard to see / irrelevant. I don't mind the noise on the Powerbook at all.

If you must check, do this: Go very close to the screen and look at a solid area of color, like the side bar of the forum. You will see dust. Then, move the window up and down with the mouse and stay close to the screen. You should see the effect that the window is moving "behind" something - those are the speckles. The speckles are easy to see when you move the window because they stay still while the window contents move.

PS: If you see just the outline of the window while you move it, never mind

 

Bios Version v1.3311, Build 06/06

I dont have the problem with grey lines or noise.

 

I had a screen noise problem with my 8204 but was able to totally get rid of it. It appears to be driver based problem. Here is the thread with the method that I used to get rid of the problem.

 

The noise that you can fix by reinstaling the driver is something what I called "HQ overlay noise" (you can recreate it by turning on HQ overlay mode in Windows Media Player 10). I had it permanently when I installed Omega drivers based on Catalyst 6.3. I think this driver turned on something like HQ overlay mode everywhere. In the beginning I thought that I solved the problem after system reinstallation, but I was wrong - the noise was still there, you can check it with Nokia brightness and contrast test. And because you can still recreate it using mentioned mode in WMP10, you can be sure that something is wrong with color translation! It is certainly NOT the driver issue - the noise appears under Linux also. It looks like some kind of Screen-GPU incompatibility - that's what I know so far...

 

hey i wud love to help. ive set the backgroung image to 100% in photoshop, the left side of the image appears a tad lighter in shade of grey compared to the right and when i move that window around the whole image flickers.
so is my display shafted...i wanted a replacement because its less than a week old and a dead pixel, let alone a whole load of driver issues

 

oh, how do u check the build date, bios, and graphics card driver number

ive found this in esettings management
Bios v1.3311 Release Date 02/17/06
My catalyst version is 1.2.2349.28584
and driver no 8.263.0.0

that all sound about right?
cheers

 

You might wanna run an update... the current bios version is 3315... makes the screen brighter.

 

So in "esettings management" the "release date" is the build date?

And I have the page with the new bios bookmarked, does it come with instructions on how to install it? I've never updated a bios before on any computer.

Mine should be here in a cpuple hours and I've already got a huge list of stuff to do with it.

 

Just got my 8204 today and pretty much the only word I can describe my experience with is "perfect".

After doing a bunch of tweaks for a few hours, including updating the bios and downloading the new catalyst, I have been flying ever since.

Went through about 6 levels of Half Life 2 on high settings then played some Battlefield 2 flawlessly.

Just as I had thought, the "screen issue" has been overhyped and I love the screen on this thing. It does get dim when you unplug it, but that's to conserve battery life and can easily be changed in one of the "e-management" programs.

It does get a little hot, but that's to be expected from a 15" notebook with so much power packed inside.

I LOVE this machine.

 

ok u updated your bios, want to help me on the other thread?

 

I've been having the same problem with my new Asus S96J. I've posted over in the S96J Owners Lounge thread about it and a lot of Asus owners are having this problem too.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=56094&page=54

I have a feeling it has to be a hardward issue because the grain is there even when I boot up in Knoppix. I'm pretty sure it's also not the GPU since external monitors don't seem to have this problem. The grain is extremely bad for me in the very dark shades of grey. It actually appears as if there are only 16 shades used in creating any greyscale images. I think it's an LCD problem and I'm going to be taking it back to hopefully replace it at the end of the month.

 

Yeah, I've checked Knoppix before... That's a hardware issue for sure... I wander if Powerbooks with the same LTN screen and X1600 have this problem also... I mean "background noise", cause we all know that they have "grey lines"... But if it's some kind of GPU-LCD incompatibility, all the notebooks with these LCDs and GPU should have the same problem... This thread shows, that (probably) not all 8204s have it... So? Anybody have any ideas?

 

Hi everyone.

I would like to add some feedback as well.
I bought german version of our beloved 8204 a week ago.
And I too have **** problem with screen quality. And I am too preaty sure it is not driver related as you can see "fine lines" or I would call it "interlace like you use in gif format to save on size" in bios. Tested few linux distros, few windows configurations same thing. I got Samsung LCD like some other users ... it has 3 issues. Light leakage at the bottom, dark right bottom corner and lines and horrible noice or pattern. I am increadibly supprised that notebook of that class has such a major issue not addressed yet by Acer ???

I played HL2 episode one yesterday for a few hours to test it out. Performance is quite ok, but quality is just horrible because of that lcd issue.
It feels like it was 16bit not 32. Worst scenario is dark areas, where you can see banding and pattern clearly.

I think best example of how bad the quality of this screen is, is Nokia test.
On my FS Amilo A1630 good old notebook, every block starting with very dark going to qhite ones, is 1 solid colour.
On 8204 with samsung screen, you can see grain and artifacts caused by constant pattern, created by this screen. Like you had interlace and noice filter on all the time. No thank you.

I have written to Acer Europe Support regarding that matter, but had no replay for 2 days. I think they kind of slow. We will see what they going to do about it.

I dont buy any explanations or dodgy advices like check your driver or so, hehe.

As this topic is about experiance I would like to ask you guys what do you think about main vent grill being placed on the right side so it blows ,sometimes very hot air on your hand, when using mouse. I find this solution not clever.

I think HDD performance is rather slow. Maybe because I got 7200 rpm in my FS as opposite to this 5400.

Usb drain power issue.
As we have a webcam connected via usb installed, we are affected by this bug. Anyone did some tests with the new MS patch ? I installed it yesterday and had no battery time rise. Any comments on that ?

Tom's H showed like another 50min extra on one of the laptops.

Thats all for now.
Cheers to all unhappy and happy with the purchase
Masterfu

 

Okay, I got my 8204 few weeks ago, 0306 build and updated with the 3319 Bios. Tested my screen using the Nokia utility today and noticed the noise problem also on the brightness and contrast test - noises on 2%,4%,6%, and 8% boxes. Now I have not yet tried the fix the problem via reinstallation of mobility drivers and using drive cleaner as Bighead06 suggested here. My question now is have anyone here approached Acer and see if they would repair this problem? Thanks!

 

Bummer this had to show up...its a great machine overall...

 

Where did you guys get 3319 BIOS. I thought latest is 3315. Is there any improvement on it?
I use 3315, and evertything looks fine to me.

 

I just wanted to add on to masterfu's post. I too downloaded the suppose usb fix and have seen no battery life jump at all. I tested the same exact settings both before and after and not a second more of battery life was given once I installed the patch. I have read in various places that the patch might not have the same positive effect on battery life one systems with built in usb cameras. The only direct test I have seen was with an asus wf5 ( i believe). You can search the net for the test as I can't think of the address. Nonetheless the machine did experience a slight increase in battery life of about 45min. If I could squeeze close to four hours of charge out of this thing with wi fi on I would be more then happy. so far though that hasn't happened