M17x DPC Latency

Class action lawsuit against Dell for knowingly selling crap merchandise?

Except only the lawyers get anything out of that deal... we're probably just boned.

 

I just called. Told them about my stuttering issue and kept pushing the fact that i shouldn;t have to sit and wait for dell to figure it out. i suggested them replacing it with an R2 and the offered the ATI cards. Couldnt argue with that. i called the normal 800 number for dell support.

 

So what did they tell you they were going to do?

 

I agree with a class action lawsuit for this matter. I have no idea how it gets started though.

 

So everyone seems to be happy with the ATI cards as a replacement. But i have two problems with that. One - The issue is with DPC latency witch, a new video card will not fix. Two - If you have the 280s SLI, from what i can tell the 4870s are a downgrade. Am i mistaken?

 

You are mistaken, the ATI partially solves the problem and they are an upgrade on most games. They do offer more power at stock and are easier to OC as proven by Mandrake, The Moo, and Scook's bench test.

 

Paritally solves.... Sounds like it does not solve the issue. ATI cards being an upgrade on most games. Sounds more like its pretty even playing field between the two in the performance aspect as well. Bottom line, we still need the true fix, not a band aid.

 

You can either take the ATI and have a very very good chance at not having stuttering and equal or better performance in games, or you can wait for Dell to fix it for you and not be able to even play an mp3. I strongly suggest the former.

 

Heh, they tried that on my system too. Basically the tech just remotely accessed the computer and installed mostly all of the drivers from the dell site. Which I told him I'd done already.

Still hopeful for R2 replacement after John B saying 4870s are just placebo - now if I get offered ATI's I can just tell that to the tech

 

well if it gets rid of the audio crackling and jumpy frame rate or even helps improve what is happening i'll be happy

 

Yea i was offered the 4870s but turned them down because i wasnt aware that the 4870s were about the same or maybe a bit better then the 280s. I still would rather wait for the fix. I like the 280s. Expecially considering i would loose hybrid SLI.

 

well they are doing it for free. so im not gonna say no. i would if i had to pay for it. Guy i spoke to on the phone said they were waiting for Nvidia to fix the chipset drivers and they were working with Nvidia to solve the issue. Also the tech rep, who was american, offered to replace the cards. i just called and bought the issue up as well as my buzzing power supply.

 

I have contacted the lawfirm by phone that did the following class action against Dell:

http://www.lieffcabraser.com/dell-inspiron-3.htm

Let's see if they are interested or not.

Update: The law firm "might" be interested. I will keep you guys posted.

 

1.) Install A03 Bios found under support.dell.com. Please disable in the bios the onboard and the hybrid video.

2.) Do a fresh Windows install using the Recovery DVD.

3.) After Windows finishes installing, install the nvidia chipset driver (Resource CD or support.dell.com). Make sure to uncheck the box for Storage Controller and Ethernet driver. These are the drivers causing DPC spike.

4.) Install the WIFI Driver A00 from Dell/Alienware M17X site

this is what the tech said to do to fix the spikes. Ill do it so I can say i did the next time i call.

 

I'll try that out.

 

i already did that. multiple times, even before dell said to do it. and it hasnt helped me at all.

 

Yea that's what i thought. just gonna do it just so they cant tell me to do it again.

 

I'm tired of reinstalling Windows every couple of days for some new "fix" that does NOTHING except waste many hours of my time. I would NOT have bought 2 of these things if I knew it would be an endless parade of tinkering and twiddling only to get nothing in return. It's stupid, its wrong, and its HORRENDOUS business practice on Dell's part to even expect us to put up with that sort of crap.

I know I'm not alone.

How on earth did the m17x ever make it past the beta stage? Who signed off on the release of these?

 

i know how you feel about that. that was my argument on at least getting the 4870's. if they help i'll be happy. We'll see. ill post up my results when they get installed. should be done next week im hoping.

 

Thats great, however what if i want actually use the NIC? I think i should be able to. I mean it did come with my machine, i do belive its covered under warranty. IMO, not a solution, another band aid.

 

Exactly. They need to quit giving us these pointless 'fixes' and either come up with a real solution or offer some sort of exchange.

 

Here is my dpc latency after the mainboard was replaced and the Ati's video cards.

[IMG=http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6978/dpcati021410.jpg][/IMG]

[IMG=http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/8342/021410ati2.th.jpg][/IMG]

This is with a movie playing in the backgound and a couple of web pages open.

 

looks better than mine. We'll see. if it doesnt work im gonna request a replacement or refund.

 

nice find. this should explain why 1) when i resize windows from windowed to fullscreen or 2) when i open firefox with blank page or 3) when i scroll pdf file pages i get red spikes? visualizations cant be turned off on win7? i mean i want to keep aero of course.

I can say those windows resize moving or whatever circumstances are the only causes of red spikes for me on win7! But even those red spikes are until 5600μs the most. except the rare 999000μs spikes note related which the above occasions and happen randomly without any sign.

as for the nvidia chipset driver i get red spikes under the same occasions with or without it installed. so i have it installed.

of course this was not the case with the GTX280s so ATIs was a serious but not absolute fix for me. but again this was a hardware based fix as you understand not software fix damn.

 

Anyone had anything back from John B after providing him your service tag and case history.All i have had was a thank you that was helpful .?

 

and this is what you will get :-( its like saying thank you for being so stupid (not personally its for all of us).

 

That thread that was started by nVidia http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=157614&st=100 they dont even have the decency to reply to anyone i pm the guy that started the thread & he is ignoring me but has been active everyday, really professional of him .

 

And I didn't even get that

 

Maybe buying more time & giving us the run around.

 

They are affraid of a lawsuit. Its normal. Don't take it personally.

 

With Dell and Clevo (and possibly more) after them, I doubt a response is going to either provoke or dissuade a lawsuit, as if its coming it's likely already on it's way!

 

Yes, that's correct. You have to turn off Aero in W7 or do the profile ajustment in the NVCP if you want to minimize the frequent clock state changes.

If I understand you here, yes - enabling Integrated Graphics and Hybrid Graphics will not make a difference concerning the DPC Latency spike of 65k+ which will result in the audio pop/interrupt. I tested with both enabled and disabled and saw no difference in the results for each test case.

--------------------------

I just noticed a post over @ John's Dell Page which I just have to mention...

Yes, I do know what I am talking about. The spike and interrupt can be reproduced under A03 and Vista. See my post HERE. I did not see it before since I roll with Visualizations 'OFF'. Doesn't mean it can't be reproduced even when Visualizations are off.

 

Scary Perry knows his stuff

 

Yes. I do.

It makes me angry when people who can't figure out solutions to problems come begging for help and then get snotty at the folks trying to help them.

If people are so upset, and their computers so broken, why don't they do something about it like the folks on this board who have gotten new video cards, r2 exchanges and refunds? I am happy with mine. This is issue is minor and I have a solution for now. I can play just about any game problem free and listen to my music pop/stutter free. I can wait for Dell to fix this completely (I have the deluxe warranty for 3 years). If they don't they will give me a new computer. It's simple.

 

hey guys i've been following this thread for a while, along with the similar thread on nvidia boards and another one here on NBR in the Sager/Clevo section...

I was wondering whether someone brought up the following hypothesis yet.

IMO the DPC latency spikes stem from 3 sources:
1. Spikes caused by some issue with the Nvidia MCP79M Chipset (present in your faulty M17x but also in the Clevo M980NU)
2. Spikes caused by the first 200m series GPU throttling
3. Spikes caused by the second 200m series GPU throttling

You guys (M17x owners) have all 3 problems happening simultaneously in a single laptop, that is why it is unbearable. If you swap your 200 series nvidia GPUs by ATI ones, you get rid of # 2 and 3, but are still stuck with issue #1.

My laptop has an intel chipset and a single GTX260m, so I'm only experiencing issue #2. My spikes are never as frequent as yours but they are still there.

How does that sound? Has anyone put it up like this before? I think it is very important to draw a clear picture of the problem if we hope to have it solved. The thing is all 3 issues show the same symptoms (DPC latency) so it is a bit confusing. Nvidia may come up with a fix for one problem (i.e. new drivers for 200m series GPUs) but many users will still experience DPC latency from the chipset issue.

EDIT: I may add that from my perspective I'm afraid that Nvidia will come up with a solution for the chipset problem (#1) and claim to have solved the issue but we will still experience spikes from #2 and #3.

 

About the chipset issue.

I have swapped from Nvidia to ATI and it resolved my DPC latency issues. I have a few spikes but they do not exceed 5000 μs (even if they were up to 16000 they wouldn't cause audio stuttering unlike the 65K+)

I have installed Ubuntu 9.10 Vista and Win 7 while I was having the Nvidia cards. No audio stuttering under linux (same with ATIs). That's why I didn't ask for a refund the first place because I installed Win 7 a month later and that's when the problems appeared.

I still don't understand what is the chipset issue that you mention (not personally you, I am talking generally). If the hardware was faulty (chipset) it should cause problems in various operating systems. I didn't have any audio stuttering or latency issue on Vista or Linux with Nvidias and apparently the same chipset but I had on win 7. So how can the chipset be faulty when the problem appears or dissappears according to the OS and the services running?

*EDIT*
I do blame DELL for not testing properly the hardware they sell with the OS they sell for compatibility. But we have to be specific about the problem.

 

the motherboard issue is related to the red spikes when using ATIs.. of course nvidia gpus produce higher spikes but i believe that in both cases motherboard is the issue. why? just because there are not dpc latency issues on R2 with intel motherboard and ATIs. not difficult to understand.

You have a good point with different OSes but why dont all notebooks have dpc latency on win7? what is this that differentiates R2 from R1 so there is not dpc latency issues on R2? of course the itnel motherboard.

I believe that in different Oses the speed of power charge when gpus overclock or downclock is different. So on win7 this happen more quickly and motherboard cant handle the power needs changing so fast. May it be the materials or the power supply dont know.

 

DPC spikes large enough to produce audio interrupts on Intel Chipset boards have been reported in the nvidia forum thread. I believe there was one such post on the first page of the thread.

I also can confirm this was/is an issue on the XPS M1730 which uses the Intel PM965 Chipset.

 

As I mentioned before the red spikes are indicative of the delay and that the color is red does not mean that it causes problems. Delays that range from 0-16000 μs are not causing audio stuttering because the delay is too short for the human brain to realize. The latency is irrelevant to the chipset as systems that are Intel based (as BatBoy mentions above too, thank you) experience stuttering too. Check the Nvidia forum to confirm my sayings.

Among others, BIOS differentiates R1 from R2 and of course the GPUs that are ATIs only.

As I mentioned in a previous post of mine, the OS does not know how to overclock or downclock the GPUs by itself, it requires specific drivers in order to do that (that's why they are called drivers) and a proper BIOS. There is a feature of Nvidia drivers responsible for upclocking or downclocking the GPUs and that's the powermizer. This is where I mostly locate the problem. A proper BIOS is needed for the ACPI (check an older post of mine too about ACPI and power management). Unless you have those two factors functioning properly, there will be issues as we all notice. And to prove that, do a format, install windows and chipset drivers only, go on youtube or play an mp3 while checking the dpc latency. I doubt you will find any red spikes above 5000 μs.

If you believe that the problem is located on the frequency that the power charge changes, then you shouldn't worry since it can be handled through software. But I highly doubt that this is the problem.

*EDIT*
The 5000 μs spike are caused because of the battery ACPI, disable it and you will get rid of them

 

no effect on my red spikes. still there with it disabled. thus with windows aero disabled still red spikes.

 

Do you experience audio stuttering?

This is the latency so far while listening to music and browsing:
http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/6210/dpc.jpg

 

Again we can try to fix it, but Dell has sold a machine that is suppose to be the state of the art, ideal for gaming and powerful. Even with the ATI cards we get some lagging in the graphic(even though it is a minor issue). I have heard the roaring high pitching sound 3 times during my total gaming time of 20 hours. Yea it is a minor issue but that doe not change that the m17x r1 system if having a technical issue that was suppose to be solved before it hit the shelves(the internet store). The hard fact is that there is not suppose to be red spikes, high latency issue or any other issues in a high end system. A high end system is suppose to be perfectly usable and not partly usable. We should be disappointed and perhaps even a little angry about this issue. Remember this we bought a new system. Not a second hand used system. We paid the full price for it... I even bought the best of the best insurance, which so far has given me the email service showing me how to install the A03 bios and reinstalling win 7. Is this suppose to be acceptable?

 

I take it that's with the 4870s enabled?

 

This can be a driver related issue

That high pitch sound that you mention I suppose it comes from the current that goes through the coils under heavy load. That's normal.

I totally agree with you, it's a high end product with unacceptable flaws for its price.

 

Correct SAUCE

 

Batboy, the only time I ever had stuttering was while the LEDs were changing colors. From what I understood at the time, the BIOS controlled the LEDs, which was the problem - the BIOS simply wasn't fast enough to keep up with the constant demands for changes, especially when using the LightFX plugin in WMP. I never had stutters when I kept a solid color and kept on LightFX 1 or 2. I also reduced my stutter greatly by uninstalling the audio driver and letting Windows install the default one.

Was there a separate issue with the chipset? I don't recall reading about it...

 

I could live with that.I currently only use my 9400 integrated while surfing net,music,movies.

 

Of course I can live with that too, since I do not experience any kind of annoying stuttering anymore. I have been in your shoes and I was switching from integrated to dedicated all the time. It was really annoying.

 

Issue solution:

1.) Install A03 Bios found under support.dell.com. Please disable in the bios the onboard and the hybrid video.

2.) Do a fresh Windows install using the Recovery DVD.

3.) After Windows finishes installing, install the nvidia chipset driver (Resource CD or support.dell.com). Make sure to uncheck the box for Storage Controller and Ethernet driver. These are the drivers causing DPC spike.

4.) Install the WIFI Driver A00 from Dell/Alienware M17X site.




I did all these steps and still have the audio stutter and pop. What happens when I want to use the a wired connection there is no driver. I am very upset that I have to disable things on a brand new computer to get it to halfway work. I want a computer that works without having to turn features off. If I bought a new car they would not tell me I cant use the radio while the windshield wipers are going! I go to school online and the 500000 spikes interfere with the streaming of video to my Procter when I take test. When you buy something new You should not sacrifice to get it to work. What is the next step to get a functioning m17x without having to disable stuff.


this is my email to the tech guy who sent me the list yesterday guess Ill wait and see.

 

Ditto. And I didn't get audio pops. However, my games that used LightFX, ran like mush sometimes. The Witcher - Enhaned Edition is supposed to us the LightFX on the M1730. So I start the game and it runs at almost 2/3rd the frame rate than what it could normally achieve, with or without SLi. The moment I disabled the lightFX by renaming the FX directory, the problem stopped. I have never had audio pops or stutters on the M1730 with and without powermizer. With and witout Windows 7. Spikes never exceeded the 45k range, either. Of course, I never used a combination of light effects and normally kept the system running single setups for the lights via BIOS while completely disabling Dell Quickset.