M17xR2 Bios A08 Discussion Thread

Very well put Aikimox, but I can see where Joker is coming from as well.

I just have one question as I have a 940XM coming in the mail.

What other possible solution is there for dell to deal with the battery issue?

Also, I understand why everyone is angry, but they just reset it to default its not like they crippled it below default specs.

 

Joker, you wisdom is grand I guess in short, if you have a XM CPU than stick with BIOS 07, and use a mouse Am I right or am I right? just trying to make you smile.

 

Perfectly stated Joker, absolutely perfect. Could not have said it better myself, at least not as quickly as you jumped on it.

I would like to add to that though by saying that even some who know of TS, don't want to run it. I especially don't want to have to run it to make my processor I paid for run the way it use to with a previous BIOS, aka the way it was meant to run when the thing shipped.

 

Yes. With bios A08, just start ThrottleStop, right click on it and select the "Turbo Ratio Limits..." option. On a 920XM, all 4 of these values used to be set equally to 24. Starting with bios A08, Dell has decided to set these to the official Intel specification which is 24, 23, 17, 17. The result is significantly reduced full load performance. To set these back to how they used to be with bios A07 and previous bios versions, it will take you about 15 seconds to change these all back to 24 and then click on OK. After that is done, you can exit ThrottleStop. The next time you boot up and run ThrottleStop, it should take care of this fix automatically. If you leave ThrottleStop running 24/7 then it should take care of this annoyance whenever you use standby or hibernate mode. If you don't leave TS running, you will have to run it for a few seconds every time you start up your computer. That's the price you pay if you want to upgrade to A08 so that your trackpad works properly.

The 920XM was originally marketed as an overclocked computer because setting the multipliers all the same across the board makes your CPU run faster than the Intel specifications for a 920XM. Switching to bios A08 takes away that Alienware advantage that you originally paid for.

Will this be changed in a future bios to the way it used to be? My opinion is probably not. They did this change for a reason. Running a CPU up to 30% slower at full load reduces power consumption and helps reduce or cover up some of the throttling issues on the M15x. The M17x-R2 didn't really have these throttling problems but it looks like Dell decided to "fix" it too.

Maybe Intel finally found out about what Dell has been doing for the last year and held a gun to their head and told them that they are no longer allowed to sell a laptop with the 920XM or 940XM with the turbo multipliers all set equally without voiding the Intel warranty. Who knows?

 

I think we all owe Kevin/UncleWebb a big thanks for devoting his time to making TS. Without him, we'd be stuck with a drastic loss in performance for a half-baked touchpad fix (see the touchpad thread for further info). The M15x owners would have been stuck with a broken throttling machine for the better part of a year had he not stepped in and collaborated with us on a fix for them. Dell rectified the issue for the M15x users a year later--should they also be thanking Dell?

 

Absolutely! Thanks! I'm waiting for my m17x r2 with a 920xm to show up this week, and I'll be installing it for sure - thanks for your hard work!

N

 

And when exactly did you discover the way to hit x25 on all cores?
Two months ago? For how long do you have the machine?
How many people buying this machine with XM's will find out how to do it without coming here?

Thanks for correcting me regarding Throttlestop, btw.

Then I wish you good luck asking for similar kind of obligations from ASUS, or any Clevo reseller
During the time you have your M17X I've dealt with many other vendors and not a single system was perfect. But none of them offered the same level of support. So if you really think that Clevo or Asus will offer a flawless product or that Eurocom will honor their warranty in the same way Dell does - >

 

My system was hitting 18-25x without throttlestop all along depending on the application + load as I explained above.

This has nothing to do with other resellers/ODM's or the level of service they offer. It has everything to do with the level of service (or lack thereof) Dell has given it's customers. Building machines that are broken and then fixing them months to a year later is not what I call quality service--especially for such costly systems. I'm being harsh towards Dell because I know they can do better and we deserve better. I'm not an advocate of any company, I'll always side with the consumer no matter how much I may like a company's product.

P.S. Asus has Gary Key (Asus rep/engineer) active on their forum and he's addressed almost all their concerns. So it's not unique to Dell and keep in mind, Brian is here on his own time. Dell never directed him to be here and probably doesn't even pay him. So a big thank you to Brian for his commitment to providing service to us, even if Dell didn't officially sanction it.

 

Does this effect the 600, 700 and 800 series of CPU's?

I would just like to know if it's worth updating for my 820QM.

 

No, just the extreme procs.

N

 

No disrespect, Joker, but I don't follow the direction of your arguement. This thread really isn't about the overall service quality of Dell, it's about effect A08 has had on the M17x.

I have to agree with Aikimox and others here. I'm sorry that those of you that have enjoyed a supposedly "broken" machine from the beginning are now losing some of your performance. We all agree that sucks. In retrospect, though, had the tables been turned and A08 gave you max multipliers, would you still be complaining?

Obviously, Dell has been running the Extreme CPU's out-of-spec, possibly to the point of causing people to have to MOD their CPU cooling systems to keep them running cool. Alienware is a big company and has to think for their whole customer base. It is probably in the best interest of everyone to have the M17x running using Intel defined speeds. Like you said, not everyone knows of NBR or TS, etc. Likewise, because of that, not everyone knows about how to control an overheating M17x, etc. It seems "safe" to have things running the way Intel says they should. As such, those of you who know how to run "out of bounds" can use TS and OC your cores just as you did before. For others, hopefully having the ability to start their computers on battery will be fixed, and temps will be cooler.

Hanging on to A07 may not be an option, as we don't know what A09 will bring, but more than likely, the turbo fix is here to stay.

 

you misunderstand me. its not that im afraid to flash the bios, i do it regularly on all my machines. i am a very capable technician, my post was geared towards jumping on the " i got it first" bandwagon. i meant to imply that things like this are the reason why i don't flash the bios until many people have tested it. not beacuse im uncomfortable, the opposite is the truth,actually, but its the stupidity that dell puts in their updates that i am uncomfortable with. all that being said, you'll find that im a staunch supporter of my machine and the AW branding .....for now =P

 

@Joker,

I sincerely hope you'll be happier with x7200

 

I gotca to biggy, I am the same way most of the time. I have had such good luck with all the updates in the last week I could not help myself

 

While I can understand both sides of this issue, I agree with Aikimox. The turbo multipliers should never have been out of Intel-designed specifications in the first place.

If anything, we should be happy that Dell caught the issue and corrected it before any of us suffered hardware damage. I battled overheating for months until replacing thermal paste myself - most 'average' customers wouldn't have noticed an issue until it was too late.

While most of us on here are enthusiasts, we have to remember that Alienware is a company that also has obligations to their vendor partners. If they're running a CPU out of spec, do you think Intel is going to be too keen on keeping their warranty obligations to them - and ultimately us?

My guess is that when Brian chimes in this is most likely the underlying reason for the decision. Before we go after him with stakes and torches we should step back and look at the entire situation and the problems that the change addressed - on all sides.

 

That was in response to Aikimox's accusation that some of us were being ungrateful for the service Dell has provided us.

Why would we complain about added performance? That's usually expected. A performance decrease, however, is not.

Nonsense, the CPU's were always within Intel's TJMax. There was never a single case of an overheating extreme CPU. The cooling mods have nothing to do with that.

Show me some evidence that a single M17x-R2 with an extreme CPU has ever reached TJMax.

 

Dell didn't "catch" anything. They built the system to scale to higher multipliers, they're not morons. Did your system ever shut down from overheating? I don't recall you ever posting that your system was inoperable due to high temperatures. In fact, I haven't seen a single case of that. You replaced the thermal paste to get lower operating temperatures, not because the system was "overheating". If it was, then your system was defective. In fact, I had an M17x-R2 that had a defective CPU heatsink before and I RMA'd it. It never reached TJMax (I haven't seen a single case of that) but I knew enough to realize the heatsink was no good. My next system had perfect temperatures with a 920xm.

This is all speculation. Nobody knows Intel's stance on the matter nor is it relevant. Let's stick to the facts here: Performance was decreased without the need for it. If these systems were routinely hitting TJMax and shutting down, then it may have been warranted. I will be curious to hear what Brian has to say about all this.

 

They should just add the option in the BIOS with a big disclaimer next to it saying this may cause instability etc and then they have the best of both worlds ... One for the enthusiast and the other for average joe ...

As Joker said this was in the system since the beginning and it was not there by mistake so the sudden removal is not a good thing and certainly should not have been the end all be all solution..

They allowed and still allow(i believe?) massive Overclocking in the R1 and whether its stable or not does not matter but they did not just remove it completely so they should find a more reasonable solution to the R2...

 

I have to agree with Joker, the CPU never exceeded the TJMax with BIOSes like the A07 so this downgrade in performance makes no sense and I hope they change it back for the next release (but keep the touchpad fix).
The purpose here is to improve things not to make them worse. The CPU has a very sophisticated mechanism to protect itself and prevent from damage.

Don't change something that's not broken.

 

Yup plus people are forgetting that Dell added CPU overvolting + BCLK overclocking to the R2. That certainly breaks Intel specifications and overvolting the CPU will cause it to overheat much faster than raising the multipliers for turbo mode--remember the CPU scales it down automatically depending on the temperature it's running at. Geez I probably gave Dell some more nerfing ideas..

 

Do you really think Dell could and did foresee that Joker and others would find a way to take the CPU to such a level?
I don't think they ever considered anything beyond the 5% BIOS OC'.

 

So what if we did? You keep bringing in this argument and I want to know where you're going with this. I explained to you quite clearly that TS + our OC'ing on the side has nothing to do with A08. Re-read my post again if it's still not clear.

 

Im sure they knew there would be some crazy people out there who were going to push the boundaries beyond factory spec somehow...

It happened to a good degree on the R1 even before throttlestop came along and the R1 bios was much more wide open with built in FSB and RAM adjustments even on non extreme CPUs ..

I doubt Alienware is dumb though but i also think when they design the machine its not what they had intended to happen but then again look at desktops and people hitting 5ghz plus on CPUs designated to run at 2.66 ...

Stuff happens and they need to be prepared for the worst so if they dont want anyone monkeying around at all with there machines its very simple and lock the BIOS down right out of the gate but they didnt do that ...

 

wow I am just getting blown away by the ignorance in this thread.

What they did was lower the, lets put it this way, stock multiplier of 24 down to 17. It use to, since the day they released the system, run at a multiplier of 24 turbo even at full load. Now at full load it only runs at 17. This had nothing to do with anyone finding a way to make the system do this with a third-party program or otherwise. This was a built-in thing that made it an Alienware rather then just another i7 extreme using computer.

Again, let me just state that the system was shipped and intended to have the multiplier of 24 at full load. If it wasn't reaching TJMax I see no reason to go and mess with this.

Sorry if I come across harsh but in my line of work, this performance drop from what I had at stock from day one is unacceptable. I shouldn't be forced to OC when I don't want to just to get the performance I once had.

 

What Aikimox fails to understand is that our tinkering on the side with the machine and OC'ing the CPU beyond what AW gave us is not even the problem at hand.They didn't hinder our ability to OC the CPU (yet) with the tools we have at our disposal. What they did do is reduce the STOCK operating performance of the system.

To put it so clearly that even someone unfamiliar with the system could understand, I'll give you the story of a fictional character named Joe Sixpack:

-Joe Sixpack bought his M17x-R2 4 months ago with a 920xm + 5870m xfire and does a lot of CPU intensive work as part of his job while gaming on the side. Joe Sixpack never OC's his system or has even heard of NBR/TS or any of us nefarious overclockers.

-Bios A08 is released, Joe Sixpack sees it and is happy that now he'll finally be able to use his touchpad! He flashes his machine and then goes back to working on it with CPU heavy tasks the next day.

-Joe Sixpack scratches his head wondering why his system is all of the sudden not performing like it was a few days ago.

-Poor Joe Sixpack has unknowingly lost up to 30% stock performance on a system that was working great a few days earlier. He paid $1000+ for the luxury of this faster CPU only to get quietly shafted.



Get it? If not I can't be more clear than that.

 

I dont think its ignorance Rockwell B1 i just think people have different views on how things should be done ...

Some people believe that whatever choice a corporation makes must be the right one...

Then there is the other group ..

 

seems the last few BIOS updates from Dell for both the R1 and the R2 have been an Epic Fail

 

Once again, perfectly said Joker. And that is exactly what happened to me. I don't OC this thing even though I know about all the stuff. I'm a game artist so using my Autodesk programs and such are pretty demanding programs. The performance drop is clearly seen when doing this stuff going from A07 to A08. Using A08 is basically forcing me to OC to get the performance I had since day one and paid for.

Ah, yea that must be it Quad. No uh further comments on that matter...

 

And you keep saying that whatever performance you gained during the last 2-3 months should be the new point of reference for Dell?
I could only agree with you if after the A08 release the system wouldn't even boost to the stock OC'ing level originally offered by Dell without using any software.

And even in that case, I fail to see the reason for such a fanatic bashing towards Dell and ATI, exactly the opposite from what we heard from you back when you first got your R2.
But that's another story not directly related to the topic...



<<< Didn't notice your last post. Well, for those unhappy with the flash - stay with the A07 till things get fixed or buy a plastic lunchbox

 

After reading all these pages of information I'm kind of glad I haven't updated my drivers for awhile

I still love this thing to death, but Dell needs to get its together. Two months shy of half a year later and a solid fix still hasn't been put out for cf, and now they backtrack on the CPU's as well.

It's disappointing really

 

I really don't know how else to explain this to you. I know the problem is you're just not getting what we're complaining about and if you did, you'd likely agree. Maybe someone else can do a better job. I'm going to create two photos, one with A07 and the other with A08 and hopefully that can show the difference.

 

Well, we danced with the De(LL)vil - that's what we get. Small self-destructing portable tiger and a bigger "elephant" that someone is consistently tranquilizing.

 

Nah you explained it well enough...

This crippling bios for Extreme CPU users has really nothing to do with YOU Joker but you are just looking out for the best interest of Joesixpack which is the guy who is going to wonder what happened to his awesome performance ...

You really cant make it any more clear... Im sure Aikimox understands this and i think he is just giving you a hard time ...

 

No need for those, I just noticed your previous post and fixed mine. I see your point.

Wise guy, heh?

 

It's not a matter of reaching TJmax on the CPU's. Personally, I never liked my M17xR2 with the Extreme 920's (before I ultimately returned them to dell because they wouldn't start on battery...both of them!) running so loudly with fans causing it to practically lift off the desk, just running normal stuff. I couldn't imagine gaming or anything with all that racket.

In any case, we can conjecture forever why Dell decided to set things back the way they were designed to be, but the obviously, there is a reason, right? You think the engineers just pull out of a hat things to screw with for no good reason?

 

Here are some tests I did for those that are curious. I used bios A06/A07/A08 for the tests. The most drastic differences are seen with 2 and 4 threads active (most applications and even games use between 2-4 threads). With 8 threads active, without TS, the difference isn't as huge, it's about 0.5x multi difference but when all 8 threads are not active, the difference is substantial enough to be concerned, especially given that the CPU is running very cool.

Every test was run with Throttlestop turned OFF. It was only shown in the photos because it is a wealth of information regarding load states, cpu temp and multiplier settings. Again, this is with the system completely at stock:

2 THREAD RUNS:

BIOS A06/A07:



BIOS A08:





4 THREAD RUNS:

BIOS A06:


BIOS A07:



BIOS A08:



Photo of the new multiplier settings with a 940xm + A08 bios:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

3166 to 2710? Ouch......

 

Like I said, your point is clear now, Joker .
Thanks for making the efforts and posting the pics.
A08 is a weird BIOS indeed...
In the end, the only thing I wasn't happy with was the amount of criticism towards Dell.
But that was before I went to Brewsters with my friends
Now, I don't care, lol
The only thing I care now is for a good game of Worms Reloaded to make things perfect again! Cheers!

 

would a better option for the multiplier 24 on battery issue have been to limit the multiplier only on battery rather then reset to base values and lose the edge in performance

 

If you're bored Joker and want to create some more data how about a wPrime 32M test using 3 threads and compare A07 to A08. A lot of modern games, on average, only fully utilize 2 or 3 threads even though it is spread out amongst all the cores.

wPrime is very CPU dependent. When these CPUs are lightly loaded the multipliers jump around quite a bit as tasks rapidly move around from core to core so sometimes a benchmark time is a little easier to understand. If one test took 20 seconds and bios A08 increased that to 25 seconds then I think that would be more obvious to users what has been lost when using an Extreme CPU.

This bios update is resulting in a significant performance hit when the CPU is lightly loaded which punishes owners but doesn't solve anything. The core temperature and power consumption has always been well within the Intel spec. The Intel default TDP/TDC settings have always limited the maximum amount of power consumption from these CPUs by using turbo throttling and these CPUs are still ultimately limited by that, the harder you try to work them. They'll just turbo throttle the maximum multiplier to keep within the TDP/TDC specs.

 

could i use throttle stop on my cpu to raise the multiplier up and increase the performance without heat or stability problems even though i don't have an extreme processor

 

NO.,you can use it to raise the TDP but not the multiplier.(i7-620m) TS will raise the multiplier of XM cpus only, you cannot change the multiplier of any other cpus.

 

it would be awesome if we could just have someone write a custom bios on these forums that would fix everything and let us change any setting we want.

 

He's got my thanks, and I ain't even gonna upgrade to the new BIOS!

 

This is a very good idea here the best of both worlds Performance on mains(A07) stability on battery(A08)

 

I never had problems with the A07 and the x25 multipliers on battery either on Windows or Linux, I don't see the reason for this change...

 

I didn't have issues with battery/heat on A07 either. The gpu driver issues are something altogether different. It's a shame they are shackling the performance of the extreme CPU's.
Thx joker for the tests. Hopefully someone from Dell will take this thread seriously.
**Edit** I use Autodesk software suite too and I don't OC. No need to unless this direction of BIOS revisions is followed. At some point we won't be able to hang on to A07. I guess that makes me a Jane6pack?

 

Has anyone of the alienware people who monitor/comment on these threads posted anything about the issues with this bios.

 

Nope not that I have seen in the past few days. Its been a ghost town of late. No responses or any news yet.
It sure would be interesting to see and hear what they have to say about many of these matters.

Cheers.

 

I would love to have A08 with just the mouse polling fix. Did anyone who took the dive notice better touchpad performance?