Let's talk... RAM!

Okay, so I'm about to pull the trigger on some upgraded RAM, I'm looking to toss in some high quality 1866mhz chips. I've narrowed it down to these:

Kingston Hyper X PnP
Kingston HyperX Model KHX1866C11S3P1K2/8G Laptop Memory - Newegg.com

Corsair Vengeance
CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1866 Laptop Memory Model CMSX8GX3M2A1866C10 - Newegg.com

G.SKILL Ripjaws
Newegg.com - G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 8GB (2 x 4GB) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1866 (PC3 14900) Laptop Memory Model F3-1866C10D-8GRSL

So, any preference from people who have tried these? Also, since I have to get 2 kits for 16gb, which RAM banks do I need to match per matching kits (which RAM banks are for each channel, I should say)?

EDIT: Both the G.SKILL and the Corsair are CL10 while the Kingston is CL11... should I be going with the lower rated latency?

 

yes the cl10 is faster. Go for the ripjaws, amazing reviews and they just came out. Plus the price is unbeatable.
In a desktop, slot 1 and 3, 2 and 4 usually are color matched. But for a laptop i dont think it matters. Also, if you get 4x4gb of all the same ram it doesnt matter. Why not get the 2x8GB kit and just use the 2 slots that are easy access?

 

Among the models the OP listed, the Kingston and Corsair are 1.5V DDR3 whereas the G.Skill is 1.35V DDR3L (lower voltage). It will be quite interesting to see how sticks rated for 1.35V perform under 1.5V. If they do work, you can probably achieve some amazing overclocks. Keep us posted!

 

Perhaps my expertise may help you save some money.

I can help you program your sodimms to include whatever xmp profiles you like... along those lines, I recommend whatever Samsung ic is latest, regardless of brand - whatever is generic and cheap - but was manufactured this year.

If you can do some of your homework, and find the SKU- number for whatever is latest.. that should do the trick..

get the RAM you want and a copy of Taiphoon Burner. Learn how to use it, importing premade profiles or creating your own. I create my own, based on what posts well, and runs well everytime.

now also know, I usually never seen any performance difference going from 1600 and up... though 1600 does make the difference it always seems.

1866 seems to get 10% better in benches, but anything higher - seems to usually start slowing down, as if its just barely getting enough juice to remain stable. being 1.65v max on m18x-r2...

using 2 slots you will get better stability. using 4, you MIGHT get a small increase in performance, but not really noticeable. Since your going 16GB... I'd go 2x8...

better on power and such things... will make a difference trying to get higher clocks../ timings

now let me explain something about timings, sometimes you can't get uber tight low timings, BUT you can get T1 instead of T2 - which can make a differenc ein FPS for sure... even though maybe small 5% less in max bandwidth - wich is not noticeable aside form benching.

another thing about timings.... and speed...

the speed ratings are part of an exponential formulae, meaning 1600 is > 2 x 800. so i.e cas 4 timings of 800 vs cas 8 1600 , the 1600 wins.

Tiings are not everything is what I mean to say. Stability means so much more in actual performance. If you have 16GB already in your laptop, I can give you a set of timings to aim for and some notes on where to go from there when trying to tighten them up.

another thing on timings. CAS is not the most important speed factor, in fact its more about latency then speed... and what affects speed more is tRAS. The row vs Column..(think of the combined first few numbers.. though that is not the forumale).

if your aiming for like 1866 Mhz you want to be around 9-9-9-27 as the absoluete god gifted your using nitrogen cooling- minimum...

your going to be using 1.65v .. no worries about it, the max voltage on the alienwares is not even enough to really do any damage to RAM nor is it even enough to really push limits 1.75 is where things start getting hot- and only when the timings are tight - unless your room is hot and other factors come into play etc... 1.65v MAX it out always.

anyways, realistically, you should start with like 933(i.e 1866) @
tCL: 10
tRCD:10
tRD:10
tRAS:27 (first sign of not booting, up this by 1 point - no higher then 32/30 should be blitz perfect)
tWR: is here in AW systems...(covered it after)

tRFC: 128-150 (start with 128, if tRAS hits 30 already maybe increase this by 4 points at a time and try)

think of the next 4 as a set- sometimes just for quick measure, I make tRRD =(x-1) tWTR/tRTD =(X) and tWR =( just abit under the three combined i.e <3x)
tRRD: 5 (worst case 6 imo)
tWTR: 6 (7 -8 max, though 7 should work just as good.)
tRTD: 6 (same as above, make them match)
tWR: 12-16 (try only past 14-15 if everything else fails.)

tRC:0-24 (start at 0, is something comes up try like 10, 12, 14,etc..)
tFAW: 20-32 (try 24, 28, 32 ..)



I just went into bios and tried this (though my xmp I set for 1600 at cas 8...

I went and did 2133 with this: 1.65v 12/12/12/36/14/144/6/7/7/48/32 and ran a test and its fine and works.. though same bandwidth as what I get at 1600.. telling you not enough voltage is the reason why performance won't increase...already maxed out :S


now run a before and after test...

and if everything works fine, without having to try different numbers.. try this:

9/9/9/27/15/128/5/6/6/10/24
or
9/10/10/29/15/128/6/7/7/10/24

anyways, playing around with this stuff... you should be able to get the same performance out of ANY RAM.. don't buy into hype and brandnames which all get the same RAM from the same place but make you pay for a sticker that is supposed to fool you into thinking its a heatsink or a brandname that could only mean its so awesome it transcents time and space and will get you laid its so cool...

if you want to not have to manually OC your RAm everytime, you program it with a profile in taiphoon burner, into an XMP profile, and you make sure the same profile is on all sticks.

in fact you can download profiles that are from vengeance and OCZ and such ram too... they're all relatively close to eachother.. but before you burn anything, always manually set to that set and test it first.

every system and ram works differently.. though I tried to provide a loose basis to play with. you should be seeing 30,000mb/s from the setup at best, and nothing less then 27,000mb/s if you some how break past 33,000 your in a top 1% of the absolute best/pro's at OCing.. if your less then 24,000 then your severly limited, and might actually notice something in programs...

MIND YOU - ive seen AW systems shipped that out of the box gave like 8-10,000mb/s only.. so stock settings on these laptops are absolute garbage usually. like CAS 12 1333mhz with 2GB and a 4GB stick .... yeah Im running that now at 2133MHz and cas 12...

but really you will see best speeds, and very fast performance around 1600 with the voltage up and decent timings. The extra voltage actually makes just as much performance as going from medium to tighter timings/speeds... so long as its EXTRA and the RAM auto sets to T1 timings (which on AW systems, you will need to loadup cpu-z and look at memory settings to verify)

hope this helps someone out there..
feel free to say what your running form your experience, we can all try a few things and see where the patterns are, to help out everyone.
Some times, im helping people manually set timings over the phone, and depending on their rig, and such, Im usually able to nail it with 2-3 tries. in person/hands on maybe even less.

if your going to buy expensive for nothing RAM anyways, go with the Kingston, just don't get the black ones which are PnP they'll give you more issues then they're worth.. get the 1600MHz ones and OC them yourself. make sure to get both DIMMs in the same package too...

and if your for sure going to go the taiphoon route, I'd go get Mushkin RAM first. maybe don't see as many reviews or as much advertising for them, but Mike at mushkin does a great job with his company, and their RAM is higher binned stock then the usual lot, even though they come without much in terms of a spd table on them, your free to program them to whatever you like

 

any reason why the alienware 18 has no voltage control for RAM in the bios, i cant find it and remember my other alienware systems had it.

 

Mobile haswell is locked into 1.35V.

Also these are my puppies:

 

Wow, Woodzstack, that gives me a LOT to think about. Thanks, +1 rep!

 

thanks.

however, seems the new AW 18 has no control on volts. the m18x-r2 is what I was using as a reference point. When my aw 18 shows up, we'll see what I can throw at it, and see if the spd tables can control the voltage maybe, other wise being stuck at 1.35v - is going to be the limiting factor. 1600Mhz ram, LoVo RAM might not ever perform as good as traditional, or it might be just as good.


and like in Meakers photo there, Samsung RAM. That's literally the best your going to get, however, I believe they usually mark their manufacturing date on them. Just but the latest you can get your hands on. shouldn't be much an issue with LoVo though


added: edited: Kingston makes some decent LoVo capable ram too, its thie rblack hyperx series, think its PnP... you'd have to at first try it manually setting the speeds etc.. and maybe then small tweaks..

its not per se- LoVo what they sell as LoVo,its just good enough RAM that it functions okay at 1.35v... everyone is still gonna see small performance loss using LoVo RAm as opposed to what we had in the m18x-r2 using 1.65vmax...

since, LoVo RAM is really - the same ram literally.. physically and everything is identical... just maybe its the sort of RAM you'd use at 2133 MHz... or really low/tight timings.

so don't go spending tons of new money on this new convention of lower voltage.. its really nothing more then OEM builders LIMITTING us.. we have always had the ability to lower our voltage and sacrifice performance/top end...

just now, since theres an issue in the world of ICs ( no progress being made for a year on 22nm tech) they started this to distract us... IMO anyways...

in all fairness, this lo voltage thing for the AW 18 is a bad step from alienware, but they're doing it because others thought to do it. its all reguklar RAm at lower voltage.. just better make of the same tech that's been available for the last 3 years...

 

For the M18x R2, I'd go with the tried and tested HyperX PnP. But for the AW18, as Meaker said, you're locked into 1.35v RAM. Kingston is currently producing a HyperX PnP LoVo part, which is still the one I'd recommend for that, but it's hard to find.

I wouldn't try to run 1.5v RAM, unless you're seriously underclocking it's specifications, and are okay with the potential for not being able to use those sticks. The HyperX PnP 2133s at 1866 might work.

 

yeah they should, they work at 1600 at 1.35v they might have 95% the same capabilities at 1866 in the worst of cases.... in the best of cases they will be faster and work fine, without being laggier from not enough power.

those are the modules that the lovo is made form anyways. same bin ID and everything

so mr.jurassicratchetman what did you settle on/ did you make a decision /buy anything yet ?

 

I bought Thaiphoon and have been just playing around with the Hynix modules from Dell. They're obviously not going to be high end performers, I just figured I should play with them for a while so I can better wrap my head around Thaiphoon and programming my own.

 

Ive run out of memory a few times with 16gb... but I run tons of crap and never turn them off ever... Ive had some programs run for weeks..

and as for thaiphoon burner and Hynix modules... you should be able to set them all to the same spd tables... maybe cas 8 -9-10-11-12 support on them and add profiles for 1600 1866 2133 ...should work great imo at 1600 cas 9 1.6v with no issues and pretty much match 95% of the performance of any more OCing

 

It's feasible to say that 90% of gamers won't use/benefit from over 8gb of RAM.

 

90% of gamers ? I disagree sorry. With windows taking up 2gb, recording FRAPs taking up another 3-4 GBs and then internetexplorer windows galore taking up another 1-2gb....your already bleeding at 8GB and that's without running the witcher2, civ 5 in the background while playing world of tanks for abit before switching back .... 16GB is a must, and that's for gaming today. Gaming tomorrow - well, just keep adding more RAM until we hits the Terrabyte RAM sticks some time next decade or so... then maybe memory will disappear altogether.. who knows.

anyways, even gaming while running nothing else, no facebook/Skype/twitter/ts3/vent/mumble/browsers/misc software like msi afterburner/fraps etc....just windows and say your soundcard software, your nic software, your alienFX software/STEAMsoftware/dropbox/keyboard software/mouse software/multiple monitor software/ videocard software running.. you STILL max it 8gb at times...

I have 6gb in this one pc.. and I only surf and run smaller programs, no gaming, its only a m17x-r4 so it totally sucks for gaming with a single 7970 anyways, but it gives me that message saying I need to close programs because Im running out of memory all the friggin time... with 16GB on the m18x-r2 I get that very very rarely, even though im gaming. Myabe only once or twice everyday. On my friends PC, with 32GB.. never happened once, and never going over 20GB's of usage... but close.. and Ideally you want to have your RAM usage at about 40-50%

this insures your at very responsive speeds, yet still using the RAM you got, and not having more then you need nor having too little and/or slowing down.

By the time we stop using the new AW 18's in 3-4 years, the 32GB limit won't be enough. Mock my words..

 

90% of gamers don't FRAPS/Stream. I currently run all the high end games (from the memory sucking WoW to Witcher 2 on max to Metro Last Light on max and everything inbetween), and have no issues running 8gb.

Yes, if you want to stream, you MAY need more than 8gb. But if you're the average gamer who wants to have music, a game, web browser, and maybe voice chat open, you'll have no issues.

Also, it's really not smart to just background your game while you play another. Especially Civ V, since you can save any turn.

 

I don't even know why people bother to discuss "too much ram" issues nowadays. Ram is just really too cheap ($60 and even less on sale) and even though you may not need it for games, I would guess that 99% of people use their computers for other things since this isn't an Xbox or PS3/4. I'm probably 1% games, 99% other stuff and have literally 20-30+ tabs open in multiple browers all the time, also have a youtube session open, netflix movie/show streaming and pausing, mp3 player, security camera monitoring system which is very poorly optimized, Quickbooks Enterprise in a multi user environment, shipping program running, personal organizer, bluestacks, the list goes on and on...

If you "ever" need to do anything other than play a game, having more memory probably isn't going to hurt you and again, for another $60 bucks, it's really just cheap insurance to bother havign 8GB...

TLDR: If you are 100% sure you will only use your computer for games, then yeah, 8GB is ok, if not, then getting more isn't worth losing any sleep over due to such a low cost and possible benefits for doing things computers were meant to do.

 

I don't know why everyone seems to think that they need a monumental amount of RAM. Currently I have open:

15 tabs in Firefox
5 tabs in Chrome
2 instances of World of Warcraft
Steam
Hamachi
TeamViewer
Steam
Curse Client
Battle.net Desktop App
EVGA PrecisionX
Mumble
Foobar2000
3 Notepads
2 PDFs in Adobe
3 Excel Spreadsheets
Custom booking/inventory management software for work
Plus the usual Sager driver bloat (about 100mb of Hotkey/KB Control/Etc.)

And I'm only running at 7.2gb used. Hell, I had 3 VMs running the other day, along with the usual compliment, and had no issues.

You're only limited by what you think limits you.

 

I guess you would've ran out of memory if you simply had the Samsung 840 evo installed since that takes 1GB already for RAPID...I edited my post since 8GB is more around the price of $50-$60 NOT on sale. Would be cheaper if there was a sale.

All that said, this is beating a dead horse to me. I can see what I use after the new machine comes, but the cost is just pretty low relative to the machine so for me, it doesn't seem like it's worth the trouble to wonder/debate if I should go with 16 or 8.

I suppose some of us never got a choice to choose neither with the new builds so we're stuck with 16 to begin with, but another reason you (or I) may want 16 is that sometimes, I have ALL my programs running, then I want to test something or look up something in a game so I want to load that up as well.

If you're already at 7.2GB already, you would run into problems if you were to start another memory intensive game.

Bottom line that I believe is that the cost is just too negligible overall and the cost/benefit is probably worth it for the flexibility.

On Alienware, 8 -> 16 GB is a $100 list price upgrade. I paid > 32+% off and come from the mindset that you can always get a sale/deal...(at least in the US)...That $68 bucks is about 2% of the cost of a $3k laptop. Do you see my point now why it's not the biggest place to save?

This is sorta like trying to drive 20 miles to save 10 cents on gas and why I think it's a wasted cost/time discussion since for "these" machines (we are in the M18 forum afterall) where people are spending 3k-6k per pop...that 70-100 bucks is 1-3% of the cost of the machine.

 

Imagine thos eof us who play eveonline with 3-5 accounts at a time. lol. that game draws on resources like mad.. .

 

If he's at 7.2GB.. what will he be at after another 3-4 weeks of leaving those programs open....I bet he's at 7.2 because he just opened them and just tried to hit as much RAM as possible... the thing with RAM is it continue's to load more things into memory the longer your machine is up and running stuff and active... 15 tabs in internet explorer, left open and such , like if they're just forums and crap... after a week would max out 8gb... I've seen it...

some people like restarting everything every time they go to their pc. Some like to have everything always there instantly and already loaded..

 

90% of those apps are normal workload. The second instance of WoW isn't typical, but isn't particularly atypical either. And my machine never turns off, only sleep. So I'm just as typical as you, except maybe trying to run 4-5 instances of EVE at once. (Which would probably require a lowering of settings, with an average consumption of 1.6-2gb each at max.)

Plus, I do have a Samsung 840 Pro w/ Magician installed. What's this RAPID thing you're talking about?

All I'm trying to say is, most people who order an Alienware won't need more than 8gb. People who order 32gb are wasting their money in my opinion, because you will never ever reach that threshold unless you're doing tonnes of VM work, or want a big ramdisk. If you ordered an Alienware for drafting/pro engineering work, you ordered the wrong computer.

 

I don't think anyone is saying you really need more to game, bottom line is if you can configure it at 8GB to save money, that's ok too and you can upgrade later if you need to...but going 16GB since I'd say the majority actually use their machines for more than just games isn't that bad of an investment since it's just 1-3% of your cost of the machine. Maybe it's like getting a mcdonalds supersize meal at 6.49 meal + 0.20 (20 cents!) for supersize version (again 3% more). Might as well load up the bus at that price.

People going 32GB are probably people with too much money and like to just MAX their laptop since they can. They don't sweat it since the cost isn't that great to them and already have everything else inside maxed. Some people just like to top it off.

Here's info on RAPID. it's not available yet on the Samsung 840 PRO till later this year, but generally, it's using DRAM to speed up SSDs even MOAR!:
A Look At Samsung Magician's RAPID Feature - Samsung 840 EVO SSD: Tested At 120, 250, 500, And 1000 GB

"
RAPID is a software-based feature in Samsung's most recent build of Magician. Simply, it uses a gigabyte of system memory for caching hot data. Frequently-used applications are stored in RAM, ideally yielding much faster accesses when that data is needed over and over. Unlike other RAM-based caching solutions, RAPID keeps cached data persistent between reboots by writing information to the SSD itself.
"

A closer look at RAPID DRAM caching on the Samsung 840 EVO SSD - The Tech Report - Page 1

 

okay so I don't know a lot about RAM

if buy this will it work in my Alienware 18 when it shows up?

Newegg.com - G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 16GB (2 x 8G) 204-Pin DDR3 SO-DIMM DDR3 1866 (PC3 14900) Laptop Memory Model F3-1866C10D-16GRSL

 

Yes.

/10char

 

I just don't understand it. Faster memory = 1-3% speed increase if the chipset support the new speeds.

But then again. This is Windows where people believe they need 4 gig graphics cards and 16 gig memory.
*hint* games are 32bit. They can adress 2 gig of graphics memory and 3.5 gig of Windows/normal memory.

 

8GB is too low. 16GB is proper balance, seriously. Anything more is, future proofing and for over using a lot of resources...

but 8GB is definitely too low these days.

 

So much wrong. 1-3% increase in speed on a maxed out machine is a pretty damn good increase.

Learn about LAA flags, which can dedicate up to 3gb of past-Windows memory in 32 bit environments, and 4gb of past-Windows memory in 64 bit environments to 32 bit applications.

Learn about high end games starting to produce 64bit clients. World of Warcraft is a leader here, (that feels dirty to say) but there are more in development that have 64bit clients.

Learn about how GPU memory works nothing like motherboard memory, is dependent on the OS, not the application, and can be addressed fully by a properly made driver in both 32 and 64 bit.

 

no offense dood, but you sound abit condescending towards Shompa.

Why not, if you think he is wrong, say so, and explain, in detail, perhaps we can all benefit from the knowledge instead.

I'd personally love reading it. I pretty much read every damn post everyday haha

 

I felt that they initiated a hostile, condescending environment by insinuating that we don't know anything. So I responded in kind. It's just what I do.

 

faster responding RAM, might still only net you the same bandwidth, but it might free up waiting queue's so to speak in other area's of the thinking going on. A slight increase in responsiveness is first noticed when you increase your RAM speeds, but over all - things are generally just as fast, but that half a second delay in programs here and there, might be quicker.

You could speed up your RAM to a point where, in benches it gives higher numbers but in playing games and loading applications, its appears slower too. theres a point when it has to skip cycles and be delayed if its not matching the queus from other things.

think of a horse track, every horse has to line up at the gate/latching and when its populated must wait for the gun togo off, then they race around the track. but they all have to finish before its over and the next race begins. each lane is another ROW and each ROW has its own latencies and speeds. you could speed up all your RAM, but if all the horse for instance, run parallel causing some undesired friction and population along the ROWs as they turn the bend along the column's then will (segments of the track each one races) they will inevitably delay others from passing them, and thus wait their turn - effectively slowing things down.

you could in essence , speed up your RAM to 2x the actual speeds, and things might go one of two ways - really blitz fast with long pauses here and there - delays, or simply notice a small performance boost only, over all, on average. Theres too many other variables. Most of the other variables, are not RAM specific either.

if it means anything, you can think of the ram speed mghz as how fast things run along the track, and the cpu speed as how long it takes the teacher to survey the classroom to see if anyone has a question, or how long before the results/tally of the race is.

these horses as I referred to them, the bits running allow the lanes passing columns and staying in their rows, also do not always run parallel and in a straight line, but more like if you notice the movie tron - they run rampart everywhere - other effects, depending on what sort of instruction set is being given, they turn left, or turn right or start moving in a pattern, this is what the old machine code does, its the Boolean algebra changing highs to lows things like AxA =1 or A+A=0 or if you've heard of NAND gates XOR gates etc... when these lanes are done moving and finish they could have an entire set of different characteristics, before going back into the waiting pens at the finish/start line i.e back into RAM, maybe they grew and now take up multiple lanes, and split into multiple 'horses" or programs/instruction..

and now will have to wait for the next race after the one about to start.. another delay, they get refreshments/recharging at proper intervals and get ready to run again... now sometimes, proper management might run two races at once on the field. starting the 2nd when the first is half way done. but they must wait until the proper queue to go, i.e another , but larger timing in RAM..

if something RUNS too fast once being let go, it would collide and cause corruption, so there is other delays that separate distance and crap too... going too fast can actually cause traffic.

but all this is going on non-stop... T1 vs T2 timings is like how delayed you are, after nodding to the guy with the gun that your ready/ that every one is ready. he either pulls the trigger asap or wait a brief second. it does not affect the race or how long it takes you to run around the track, but maybe it keeps you on the edge of your seat with an impression that things are running very fast and responsive.. but with more spectators, i.e say 4 dims, your using t2 timings/command rate so takes longer for the guy with the gun/cpu to pull the trigger/ un-latch .. 2 dims, use t1 timings, might get a speed increase, especially in programs that take a split second to pop up when you run them - they might start instaneously, but take overall just as long to finish loading.

meh im bored... wonder if anyone will read my random laymans terms of ram haha

btw kool tip. always try t1 see if it works. also, iof you have timing of say 8-8-8-27 or whatever, and when playing with them, it seems only one number can go down one point more, and anymore anywhere else would cause instability. Don't choose CAS - manufacturers do that, as they rate the speed of RAM based on that. do the third one, RAS. makes a larger difference.

CAS is how long it takes to ask and get the awnser... RAS is how long you have to wait to get the attention. its like being in a classroom. You don't care how long it takes to ask a question and the teacher to explain it to you(from when you finish asking to where the teacher starts to awnser), but rather, how long your holding your hand up waiting for attention ... once something is going to reply, they're gonna be pretty static on how long it takes them to say the same thing. but getting their attention earlier, is always better. Early bird gets the worm. RAS FTW!

 

There's a lot of technical jargon to go with RAM, and it's rather hard for most to understand, though you've laid it out quite well.

As a more simplistic version of what you're saying...

There are two kinds of 'speed settings' to RAM. One is the 'timings' and the other is the 'frequency'. Increasing the frequency at the cost of 'looser' (worse) timings doesn't always give you a net benefit. That being said, lowering the frequency to 'tighten' (improve; make better) the timings also won't necessarily show a net benefit.

This gets into some really high end stuff, and for the majority of users, I'd suggest just sticking with stock RAM, or faster aftermarket RAM at stock settings. But if you want to get into the real nitty gritty, I always suggest that you overclock the frequency to the next step at a 10% loosening of the timings, or try to get tighter timings on the frequency it's already set on. If you can maintain the same timings with a higher frequency and it sits stable, you're golden.

 

I didn't read most of these postings, but I will tell you this. The 8gb of DDR3L that is installed on my new Alienware 18 is super fast. I don't know how it could get any faster.

I have a 128gb Samsung SSD installed with my games on it, but the Windows 8 operating system is installed on the factory Alienware hard drive. It literally boots in 5 seconds. No lie.

Programs start in mere seconds, so not sure upgrading to more than 8gb would do much for me.

 

Stuff starting and etc has more to do with the SSD than the RAM...

 

I just wanted to say a quick "thank you" to everyone who participated in this thread. Very informative and interesting stuff.

I'm considering upgrading the RAM in my M17X R4 to 16 GB and a higher frequency. I would like to be able to encode HD videos in the background while I am still gaming. I get a major performance hit if I try this now with 8 GB installed. So I'm hoping 16 GB and higher MHZ will do the trick.

 

If your (laptop example/so-dims) at 9-9-9-x @1600 your pretty good. 10-10-10-30ish @ 1866 and your timings are actually VERY tight... think your refresh is something like 10 1/4 ns or something or even less...

2133 @ 11-11-11-33+ is too tight in most cases. You'd need more voltage to keep up, and the system can become picky. HOWEVER 12-12-12-33to36ish is like same performance most cases as 1866 @ 10-10-10-30ish so long as your not too low on the wattage you need.. otherwise, 2133 will even be slower.

The voltage itself can make a difference in speeds. try it. 1600 with lowest voltage vs highest.

The timings are very important, hut at the same time they are not as important as some think. They are not the time it takes to do anything, only the time it takes to get ready, or inbetween doing things, or how long a window of opportunity is open. your actual speed is still the one listed with Mhz.

some may think 800Mhz cas 4 is same as 1600 MHz cas 8 ---- IT IS NOT AT ALL. That would be like comparing a stock Honda civic to a McLaren, but only giving the Honda user half the time to prepare , half the time to setup, half the time rest, and have the time to refuel.... he might be forced to run blitz as can be, but he's also going to lose the race big time.

now 1600 is actually more then 2x as fast... because anything with a Mhz attached to it is part of an exponential formula, however, theres many limiting factors, and thus in reality 800mhz might be only 25-40% slower.. I used to get 19,000mb/s from my old 780i FTW motherboard with a set of ddr 2 800 RAM. course, I also managed to break the 1700 fsb limitation, thanks to shading in some 100kOhm resistors

if people must know, when RAM is actually doing something, actually running with code and being changed and working, not waiting, i.e using its Mhz value.. it spends more time, even at those high speeds, then it ever does waiting around doing nothing, usually. that's why timings are still not as importrant as some may think, but still - very important.

 

So when overclocking the RAM do you have to do it manually? Can't just set the speed in the BIOS? I've tried setting my Crucial BallisticX1866 to 2133, but it only shows are 1866. Here IS A cpu-z pic of its timmings
View attachment 102020

 

Yes, you set the values manually in the BIOS as the post points out. I have used very similar settings with my Kingston HyperX and they work really well. You do need to max out the memory voltage though. Otherwise, you will have issues with lower voltage. Below is an example of using settings similar to what woodzstack posted. Credit where credit is due, I only found this stable after following woodzstack's advice to max out the voltage setting. You might not be able to get it to run faster than its rated speed in every case without modding the SPD, but you can definitely change the timings.

 

Holy mother of hell Fox... that's on the R2 ?

very nice. Very unrealistic for most, but your tRAS is very tight, wow... insane.

I'm actually having extreme difficulty with the new alienware 18. Nothing sticks in bios. Its pissing me off. However, I'm getting about the same performance bandwidth wise, which I'm suspicious of, because I really shouldn't be, my timings are not that great, but oddly, everything reports my RAM at 1.5v

thought this was using LoVo and the limit was 1.35

Know whats up with that ? Is the bios so screwy it reports wrong voltages ? ( AW 18 refresh)

I've not gotten a chance to install a liscenced copy of Thaiphoon this time around yet, rather broke for abit, and I'm unsure about the voltage from the motherboard - which I suggest, making sure, it ALWAYS is reported correctly, before writing to spd tables.



thanks for the mention btw

to mr ht_addict. set your memory to 1866, then 1.65v, then to custom and mimic the timings you have in your 1.5v xmp profile. probably won't work at 1.5,,, or go into thairphoon burner and up that to 1.65v and write it.

 

Yes, that's on the R2. Amazing, isn't it. What a beast.

I'm not sure on the 18. I'm not doing a great deal of advanced tuning exploration until Alienware has a new BIOS/EC available for the 18. That could change enough stuff that I would need to start over on performance optimization tweaks, so I am planning to spend more meaningful time later on as opposed to wasting (to some extent) time now. I think those readings might be inaccurate and I don't want to break/fry something by accident due to reliance on incorrect information. The actual memory performance seems better than I would expect from ordinary LOVO memory. I trust the performance readings are accurate, but I am not sure the voltage and timings are being displayed accurately. It would be a bit risky for my own comfort level using Thaiphoon Burner under those circumstances.

 

I actually want to get it running at 2133 or 2400. I've gone into the BIOS and set it to 2133 and set the timings according to CPU-Z numbers and all I get is a black screen. Any other settings i should be playing with? I have voltage set to 1.65v.

 

Did you already try following the really great guidance that woodzstack provided in this post? It will take some trial and error to find out the right combination for your memory modules. Start low and work up until your machine boots stable, then check your timings. You can get close without booting Windows. If you press F10 to save and exit, then re-enter the BIOS. If it has not reverted to "Default" on its own, then you are getting closer to finding settings that will work with your memory.

If you choose timings that are too aggressive, the system may still boot but the settings may revert to defaults if your BIOS does not like them. You can try these settings... they are stable for me with Kingston HyperX 1866 flashed to 2133. They may not work the same with different modules, but it's a starting point that may save some time. Be sure to run the Dell/Alienware ePSA (F12 at boot) and Windows Memory Diagnostic to verify stability once you find settings that stick.

XTU does not have a setting for tRC. That must be set in the BIOS, but the other settings can be saved as an XTU profile and exported.

Sometimes the settings do not stick in the BIOS after multiple reboots. You many need to reset them when the BIOS restores memory defaults.

 

we share the same sentiment of caution with the new aw 18 then.

If XTU doesn't touch rTC then just set it to 0 or 24., say leave at 0 for 1600, and if you want to go 2400 set it to 24... don't forget this is just for XTU... once its set, go into xtu and go nuts bringing up your speeds and stuff (timings, though I think you first have to set your actual speed in BIOS too, as XTU requires a boot to change the actual speed)
.. should work either way, and it will not affect performance, unless performance would have a 10 digit number...


OH Fox, I'd like to report, that, unless people get the absolute latest NAND/ RAM chips, they're not going to be able to manage those settings/timings at 2133 , 1866 sure... which will still be very fast.

 

1866 is going to give you the vast majority of performance increases too.

 

I agree... RAM "upgrades" are mostly a big to do about nothing unless you are running slower than DDR3-1600 or have too little RAM (under 8GB) then it can sometimes be a good upgrade. Going from stock Dell DDR3-1600 to Kingston HyperX DDR3-1866 was unremarkable and modding the HyperX to run 2133 was unremarkable. Changing the timings as shown above was unremarkable. That was a cumulative process that may have diminished the experience somewhat. If I dropped in my stock Dell DDR3-1600 sticks I might notice a difference, but I suspect nothing earthshattering.

You can measure the differences very clearly, but you don't really "feel" anything like you do upgrading from HDD to SSD, better CPU or more powerful video cards. I don't recommend that anyone spend a wad of cash on faster "high performance" system memory... personally, I consider it a waste of money. It has minimal affect on benchmark scores and zero effect that I can detect in gaming.

 

^Truth...

After playing with the Dell supplied Hynix modules, I've currently got them running at 1866 with pretty decent timings and I'm convinced that there really is no point in throwing money at RAM for me.

 

Is it easier to over clock after flashing the modules to a faster speed?

 

I have my DDR3-1866 HyperX RAM using stock HyperX 2133 firmware. The settings above were manually set in the BIOS, not flashed to SPD. I did it to test the difference in performance and it was such a minor (under 2.5%) improvement as measured in memory benchmarks that it's hardly worth messing with. (See stock versus overclock results in attached thumbnails.) So, long story short, I am not flashing custom settings to my HyperX modules other than the stock firmware mod. I also wanted to show it can be done with manual settings in the BIOS.

If you cannot find settings manually that your system successfully boots with, and passes memory tests without failing, or freezes and BSOD issues, then I would advise against flashing your memory with any custom settings that you do not know for certain will work. Whatever timings work excellently by setting them manually can then probably be rightfully assumed to be values that can be flashed safely.

 

its easier to OC the RAM, when they all have the same SPD table... That's something people never understand too... with mixed vendor RAM... like 2 sticks from stock and 2 sticks from shopping around. What I would do then, is for sure, copy one sticks profile and write it onto to all 4.

Then test your RAM and OC it and have some fun. Then, when its perfect, copy the current setting to a XMP profile and write it to all the dimms. Then go and load it by XMP whenever something fails.

When you can reach a higher plateau, then write it to a second XMP profile. Also make sure your enabling EPP on your DIMMS to.

When all dimms have the same ranges, i.e cas8,9.10... on their profiles and the same rated speeds, things wont screw up as much.

Now ever wonder where the BIOS gets those odd numbers it comes up with, when it defaults to its own timings? Well, those are actually ON THE RAM itself.

if you load your ram MODULES AND TAKE A LOOK INTO THAIPHOON, YOU'LL SEE HIGHER THEN NEEDED RANGES OF LIKE CAS 11, CAS 12 ETC..

if you eliminate the slower/higher numbers from the spd table ranges then you can also force the bios to default to something faster, same goes for the speeds MHz wise.. if you have a 1333 profile on the RAM, the BIOS will default to it in the worst cases if things get screwed up, and pretty much use the slowest values of everything on the ram, and the lowest voltage supported. That's your default.

Thought to add that, considering how much else Ive shared in this thread, might as well keep contributing.

so, when you messa round with your RAM and write SPD tables, eliminate the ranges which are just absolutely not acceptable at any speed - no matter what, same for the voltage, and same for the speed, BUT - do give yourself some flexibility mind you.

Like if you see a range of CAS 9,10,11,12, 13.. with fractions of them etc.. you might want to eliminate 13, 12 and ADD 8. by adding the 8 you will be telling your motherboard, your RAM can support that timing too, and in many cases where it might not boot, it will actually allow that timing.

if you see ODD, and I mean seriously, ive seen so many odd numbers.. for speed ranges like 1300 1350 1423 1456 1561mhz.. that's just the vendors filling up OEM RAM with non-motherboard supported timings to help FORCE OEM specifications and forcing you to stick with the default wherever it lands/ usually being 1333/1600 etc..

you will not be able to run those speeds. they're there to just fill up the blank spots, so you can not easily re-write them. Most cases on these dimms of RAM too, there is some level of protection to stop you from writing on them too.

You will notice on Bought RAM from online wherever you shop, that the tables on those, usually are pretty blank.. heck, ive gotten mushkin memory that had 1 timing only, and 5 other profiles BLANK - but damn was it friggin good memory...(Thanks Mark @ Mushkin )

This is why I say write to an XMP profile, unless your using like Kingston hyper-X - in which case, it came with a XMP profile for you to use specifically - use that, and write to the other one if needed, however, even on these brands and such, I've had to eliminate lower speeds and such and random filled in tables.

hope this helps, if anyone has questions, feel free to post them in this thread.


so maybe a TL R

if you want to OC to like 2133/2400 make sure the range is written on the modules, can help when certain types of bios protection and windows safety features are written hardcoded into them. Make sure the ranges for the timings too are there, and voltages.
This is a big concern for those with stock RAM and mixing with non-stock. find your best piece, and write all modules to the same table, and to be safe, write to the spare xmp profile 1-2 and use that as your sort of testing clip board, so that in the worst case when writing to RAm you do not screw anything up and it can still load if not supported. cheers !

 

My feelings on ram are that they are the last step of the system, the may as well tweak to get everything just so, that last percent or two.

 

So when tightening up on the timmings which are the important ones to play with? I have my memory running at 10-11-11-28 @2133. I ran memtest and it passed as well as benchmarks in Win8 with no crashes