*Official Alienware M18x AMD CrossFire Discussion Thread (re: Dell/AW Conference Call)*

Dear Fox, I support Shaden motion.

Thanks for considering it.

 

Congratulations!!! I agree. Finding the right technician is all it takes to resolve an ongoing problem.

I think we are also going to talk about regular Dell video driver updates for Crossfire & SLI systems. Do you have any other suggestions?

 

Just out of curiousity, could someone who is experiencing the 6990 issue please try to replicate my problem located here. http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m18x/620846-interesting-audio-issue.html

I am 99% sure it has nothing to do with the 6990 card issue however it is a problem I am experiencing and I am experiencing the 6990 issue as well so.....

Please post your results in either thread.

Thanks

 

Can you add the MB rev. F2 1132 to the MB lists -> have the fan problem too

 

I will sugest, from the bottom to the top...

1. to assure we, everyone, are / is getting always "the right tech..." a persona that know and understand the AW machines, know and understand the related thechnical issues and can make understandable and optimal decisions...
2. to transparent to the costumers the implementation of a Systemic Quality Management system from the designing to the producing to the selling to the post-sell servicing...

edit: BTW, finding the right tech. can't be a matter of a russian rulette...

 

This is interesting. We now have the earliest MB that is having an issue as well as adding a new MB revision number to the list. This now kind of puts a kink in the thought that other than the select 2 F2 1136 MB's that have the issue, that this problem was isolated to the MB revisions newer than these.

Back to the drawing board.

 

These issues are extremely difficult to explain over the phone, especially with a language barrier. While the technician is asking me for my service tag up until they have verified my identity, I am deciding if they have the aptitude, courtesy & patience to handle my problem. If I deem they don't or hear other agents in the background I simply hang up and call again. I don't think its worth it to sit there for hours at a time with someone who I think is not willing or is unable to resolve my issue in the best interest of the customer. Dell has some amazing technicians in Costa Rica & El Salvador. I've been hung up on so many times that I think its fair to do the same if I feel I'm not getting the service I require. Trust me, Dell isn't going to be mad.

I know this maybe a little off-topic but I feel it's necessary because some users don't know when to hang up and try your call again. I have had so many calls handled by amazing Dell/Alienware techs that I hate to hear about a single tech ruining someones day.

 

What gpu's do you have? I think it is important for them to know that.

 

Sky, did dell excHanged your amd card for the nv 580m?.
Because I call them about my Display flicker or flickering and they just giving me a new laptop.

 

I'll answer that in a PM

 

Not a delay tactic. The factory is located overseas. Shipping would take time. Plus what if the unit ordered did not exhibit the problem? Better to get a "known bad" system from the field and analyze it for root cause than take a chance on getting an affected unit ordered, built and shipped.

Thanks for that link. Obvious human error that should have been caught before the unit shipped. I will alert Dell Chris M.

Keeping track of this thread is true yeoman's work. Good job by not only Mr Fox, but also everyone else for keeping things moving and updates aggregated.

Louis is set to go for just about any afternoon, Central US time, next week. Just let me know which afternoon you settle on, and I will get invites out.

Capture requests will be handled by the Alienware L3 team. They will probably only need like 4 or 5 I'm guessing. However, a list of all the affected service tags we can get would be most helpful. I can kill 2 birds with one stone by getting the tags to the engineers and the contact info for anyone willing to do a capture to the L3 team.

So, if you are willing to provide your information, please PM me with subject line "6990 Cold Boot Issue" and include your service tag, name, daytime contact number, email address and shipping info. The L3's may not reach out to every single person who replies, but as I said, we need all the affected service tags we can get. Thanks for your patience.

 

I would be willing to let my system be captured however, I am going to be out of contact from the 11th until the 21st. I am also unsure how it works but since I use my system everyday for work, I would have to have a replacement system in hand before I could send the current system into L3.

Feel free to pm me or respond back here Bill-B if you would like regarding this.

 

You don't send in your old unit until the new one arrives. The only deviation from a normal system exchange process is someone will email you an airbill to print up or set up a FedEx/UPS pick up instead of using the airbill that ships with the replacement to return the old unit.

Captures would be US only, but if you are outside the US we still need a list of all the affected service tags we can get our hands on. We can determine a lot from those; things like manufacture date, assembly line it came down, mobo revision/date, and so on.

 

It's a CFX of 6990m.

 

I live in the US and have this issue with a system I received last week. I would be willing to have my system captured if it would help the community and Alienware / Dell reconcile this problem. I have

M18x : i7 2860 | 2GB 6990m CrossfireX

 

the problem with this is...it is the same thing as a reboot.

for this to make sense...he would need to set it in bios, boot to windows, then shut down and let the computer sit for a few hours. then come back and boot straight to windows. and see what happens.

what he is doing now is still a reboot. just because he went in the bios once..the laptop has already been on.

 

Way to go Bill. I really appreciate your ongoing service to the thread. I'd rep you but it says I have to spread some around first.
Not only does system captures help with identifying the problem it also may lead to some members getting a system that works properly.

 

Other issues I have with AMD cards + drivers:

1. Lack of brightness control: This is EXTREMELY annoying for me because in the evening, I like to turn down the brightness but can't.

2. System fails to wake from sleep at times and if it does successfully wake, the 3D performance plummets until I restart the system.

3. GPUs tend to run hot unless I elevate the back of the system. Especially the memory and I don't think I should have to do a repaste to remedy this.

4. In BF3 and other crossfire titles, I get green flashing at times which is attributed to Crossfire.

Some of these issues Dell has no control over but they do have leverage with AMD and can make sure the driver side of the problems are remedied. In short, I wish I had gone with 580M SLi when configuring this system, it would have saved me a lot of headache.

 

THANK YOU INDEED Dell-Bill!!! CONGRATULATIONS ON THAT SIMPLY PHRASE!!! +REPS

That's the kind of "starting-up understanding" we all need and ask for.
When someone buy a 4~5 thousand machine, she/he need to know that it will be effectively and reliably tested (not just 'externally') before it's shipped

The same is needed when we call the support service... (or when a tech. comes to our place). We (and/or Dell) cannot afford a russian roulette when trying to find the right technician, in the right 'mood', at the right time... calling again and again for hours and days...

The issues with the GPUs ( as well as with other parts of the machines) could be avoided from the beggining with the 'right' Systemic Quality Management" system...

Please, let me tell you that I have been a Dell costumer since it start selling over the internet (and even before). I had been responsible for the buying of a lot of a diversity of Dell machines for many institutions in almost 32 countries... I still believe that Dell's warranty is the best among all the other manufacturers, but...

In the last years, the issues related to a) bad or missing pre-boxing testing of the equipment and b) lack of 'quality' in the technicians to know and understand the machines, to identify the issues (instead of plain arguing with the costumers) and to solve the issues... (without breaking more parts!) is a BIG ISSUE by itself.

Have Dell researched how much is the (Dell and end-user) costs involved in sending and resending so many replacement machines, so many parts, so many technicians ( breaking so many parts and trust...) to the home / offices of the customers... etc. etc. etc. ???

I DO APPRECIATE VERY MUCH INDEED YOUR EFFORTS AND HOPE FOR THE BEST OUTCOMES FROM THEM.

 

OK team. I don't disagree, but here's the deal. I asked for feedback at the beginning for agenda items and the thread basically got consumed by the current issues with fans and overheating on the 6990M systems. There has been very little feedback or suggestions for discussion topics. (It is also possible that I missed some details considering the explosive growth this thread has seen in just 9 days.)

Here are some things I have identified through osmosis:

• Current Issues with AMD 6990 - Overheating and Defective Video Cards
• Problems with Replacement Parts Availability (affecting AMD and NVIDIA)
• AMD Driver Support - Infrequent Dell Updates versus Imperfect AMD Reference Drivers
• AMD Fan Control - Can We Enable Manual Controls through a Dell-Approved vBIOS or Drivers? Does Manual Fan Control Create any Issues?
• Quality Control Issues - New and Refurb Systems with Out-of-Box Problems

Edit: Topics for future call

● Technical Support Issues - How to Effectively Deal with Poor Phone Support
● Technical Support Issues - How to Effectively Deal with Field Tech Problems
● Technical Support Issues - How to Effectively Deal with Depot Repair Problems​

Not all of these topics are AMD-specific, but they all clearly relate to subject matter that has affected owners of AMD-based M18x laptops. This agenda could consume a fair block of time.

I would also like to develop a short list of the things that we like most about our Alienware M18x systems and why we are glad to be Alienware owners. Examples that come to mind are things like: incredible build quality, anodized aluminum chassis, excellent cooling system and the best advanced warranty available. This will not require much discussion, but I think it is important for Dell/Alienware to know what they are doing right and what we feel passionately about they should keep on doing. (Please post your feedback.)

My suggestion is that we hold any thoughts of a wish-list for future features for another time. We already have the " What users want in the M18xR2" thread that is being updated concurrently with a blog on IdeaStorm, as well as the " Alienware Community Feedback" thread. My thoughts are that Dell-Bill_B or DELLChrisM might be able get back to us at some point to check our pulse on interest-level for specific new features that are being considered, and maybe set up another call for that. (If Bill has any intel on what suggestions are already being seriously considered, he can share some thumbnails to whatever extent he is permitted to share that information during the call.)

Are there any other thoughts or suggestions?

● For the "Team Red" Panel: please send me an email letting me know of your availability next week. I doubt that I am the only one with meetings at work, but together we can hopefully identify a time that works for the majority of us, Bill and Louis.

● Bill - thanks for your ongoing support. We sincerely appreciate having your help as a liaison with Dell/Alienware.

 

One suggestion/request: Can we take the tech support issues off this agenda, and consider them for a third call with someone up the chain in the Alienware services organization? Neither Louis or myself have any direct influence on tech support beyond messaging and issue updates.

Off topic and just for informational purposes: We recently did a Google+ hangout (video conference) with Frank Azor, executive from Alienware. You guys may have been interested in that. Once Dell Legal is satisfied we have properly added enough disclaimers, we'll be posting the recording on YouTube. If you guys are interested, let me know so I can give you a heads up next time we have one.

 

Not a problem, Bill. Will pull those topics.

I, and I am sure that others, would be interested in that YouTube recording, as well as a Google+ hangout.

 

Dear Mr. Fox:
Cheers on your brilliant exercise of diplomacy! A good lesson for many.

Also the list you manage to arrange seems very adequated to me... Man, your mental 'osmosis' works great!

Now, let's hope that the debate will be less strategically diplomatic (or tasteless "politically correct") and more tactical and operational in the actual production (or construction) of solutions (processes, actions...) that can benefit both Dell and costumers.

You did not wasted your time, my friend; as Ch. Dickens would say: I have "great expectations" from this efforts and " A day wasted on others it's not wasted on one self" (Ch. Dickens).

 

Thanks Bill and Fox: It's seems logical. But please, let's not forget that "third call"... nor the so many issues regarding the tech support (and the costs for Dell and the costumers)...

I'm pleased that the topic related to a Systemic Quality Management is still on the list.

Thanks for the offer: it's certainly of my deep interest that future post.

 

Fox, Bill & "Team Red"....

My points of concern are outlined below and are specifically related to ther title of the thread - AMD Crossfire Issues. This isnt neccessarily exhaustive but immediate things that sprang to mind concerning AMD on our M18x's. Please feel free to contribute your thoughts etc etc. Here they are:

i) Thermal shutdown - goes without saying, this is the main area of dissatisfaction for AMD owners

ii) Lack of fans at boot - the cards idle up to what I believe is an unacceptable temperature before kicking in (if they indeed do kick in referencing point (i) above)

iii) Lack of Dell-ized AMD driver updates (or NV for that matter but as its a "Team Red" call, you can omit at your discretion)

iv) Display corruption - I get horizontal flickering even whilst not under load - simply sat at desktop - clean install - nothing awry that would indicate a cause other than AMD hardware/software

v) CCC error messages upon iGFX switching

vi) Lack of ability to switch iGFX "on the fly" without a full system reboot - I could be wrong but my understanding is that Nvidia 580m Sli does this on the fly.....

vii) Lack of Brightness Control - this should be a foregone pre-requisite by now - every time we get hit with this at some point and it really vexes me

viii) HDMI Audio Driver - again, not so much Dell but as Joker says, Dell and AMD "should" have sorted this one by now. Every time I install AMD Driver Updates, they omit the HDMI driver from the mobility pack forcing a seperate download of the desktop counterpart, extraction and file manipulation prior to installation of the mobility set to get the HDMI audio driver installed. Simple really....but another annoyance

 

Yep! The steviejones133 "list" is quite a representative self-explained one... +reps!

 

Good topics, Mr. Jones. They will fit nicely as subtopics under the broader categories I listed a bit earlier. As I receive more input, I will refine the list and incorporate them and submit them to our panel for quick review.

As a point of clarification, since we are removing "Tech Support" as a topic...

This topic is a broad category to provide some intel on the problems we are seeing with systems upon delivery. One personal example is my M18x exchange system had an issue with the touchpad. The tracking surface was bulged up and sat higher that the buttons. It was a defect on a new system. I used the palmrest assembly (with touchpad) from the system I was returning to replace the defective part. If you have similar examples, please let us know.

 

Thanks fella's.

One more for my list is the continued lack of compatability of the Official AMD Driver Installer Packages (latest one referenced) - the 1.1mb (or equivalently sized) file we are "supposedly" able to use to download and install new drivers with - NEVER works.

We always get a "hardware not recognised" error and have to hunt around for other sources.

 

I also agree with this...another for the list. I see temp differences of 10c+ on the memory sensors (gpuz #3 sensor) over and above the other sensors. Temps during gaming , for me, with a cooler AND elevated easily reach 85c+ on mem. chips....hate to think what they would rise to WITHOUT elevation and additional cooling..that cant be good for longevity (or anything else for that matter!)

 

Stevie, you really hit home with your list. Couldn't have done it better myself. +rep!!
Unfortunately Nvidia has to FN + F7 just to switch between IGPU & SLI. The M17x R3 can do this switch on the fly. Thanks for mentioning Nvidia "Dell" drivers too. It is sooo annoying that Dell doesn't make the necessary changes needed for our units to function on reference drivers. Whenever I speak with tech support they ALWAYS install the Dell drivers that runs like garbage in Battlefield 3, The Witcher 2, MW3(Got it), Sonic Generations, Crysis 2, Mafia II, Alice Madness Returns, Batman AC & Rage. Then they remind me that Dell/AW only supports the old Dell driver. Can someone please relay to Dell that SLI/CF systems require up to date drivers!!! It's not just a question of performance. Rage, BF3 and so many others have graphic/frame rate problems on old out of date Dell drivers. This is a valid topic for discussion and is extremely important.

+rep Bill!! It finally let me give some to ya!!

 

Thermal paste should be a topic of discussion as well. Most systems ship out with a sub-par paste job on all components - GPUs in particular. I've had a couple of systems ship with thermal pads folded in half or completely missing. How you mess up placing a heatsink that already has the compound pre-applied onto a video card is beyond me. 4 screws people. My 8 year old could do better.

I think many of us would appreciate an option for quality thermal paste PROFESSIONALLY applied to the components. And don't charge $45 for it like every other manufacturer does. A tube of MX-4 is $12... you use a fraction of it to paste a single system. Offer it for free or charge a minimal fee ($2-$5). I'd rather you put money into build quality and stop giving me free hats and stickers and leather manuals that I don't need/use.

 

Add me to the list of forum goers with the issue

Rev. G2 1142

5th replacement, can we have 6? Is that even allowed?

 

Please add me to the list of overheating:
Rev G2 1142

 

It seems like they really laid an egg on QC for these 6990 batches. Good thing great support if the right channels are used but just sad to see all these issues.

 

It's not the 6990's causing the problem. The motherboards work fine with the 580M SLI configuration.

 

I suppose we will find out before too long... All of these serious overheating and malfunctioning issues were not present on earlier 6970M and 6990M video cards. It seems this started to really become a widespread issue in the last 30-45 days, so I am still leaning toward the recently distributed video cards being the primary factor. Either way, I am confident Dell/Alienware will isolate the issue and make things right as this is not a minor glitch or an annoyance issue.

We've seen great results with correction of the OSD/Aero bug and 580M throttling issues in a very short time, and I fully anticipate the same type of outcome with this issue.

Even Dell's past history has distinguished them as being a customer-centric, do-the-right-thing company. Some of us will remember the issues with the NVIDIA defect, which was not all that long ago. When NVIDIA refused to acknowledge a problem existed, Dell was there for us and went above and beyond to make things right for customers that still had a warranty. They out-shined Apple and HP, both of which initially joined NVIDIA in denying a problem existed. When it eventually became common knowledge, they pointed the finger at NVIDIA and left many of their customers high and dry, and most of them outside of their warranty period.

 

I have done an investigation on the M18X mobo and found out that we don't not have any option to do anything other a complete motherboard revision for all current M18X users for on-fly graphics switching because a barebone MUX like design is involved on our current setup.

A MUX in this case has two senses depending on what sense is being made active to activate the chosen "path" so to speak, so if its S0 and S1, say S0 is discrete GFX and S1 is Intel, it wont be possible to activate them in windows even though the EC controls this. The flag is set in through the EC to set the option for the switch while in windows (effective at next reboot) but because the MUX has been activated with a certain sense at the start of POST its not going to work while in windows. Not without extra logic to handle this, They may need the discrete GFX on standby even when its not in use for a dynamic switch. Its power gated and powered down but not entirely closed off.

In the current setup the MUX behaves exactly like a typical MUX completely shuting off one section of graphics to the point its not even detectable to the BIOS as if it doesn't exist. Dynamic Switching needs both graphics solutions to be 'visible/system aware'. Only possible through dedicated logic.

Why they choose this route is really confusing, there is hardly much cost increase in going for logic that can control this dynamically. Why even go down the bear MUX route is beyond my financial understanding.

Cant really find any such logic on the motherboard, but there are several empty spots were this could be soldered on to.

To me it seems there were plans to have it dynamic but some decisions where made at the technical management chain and decided to put that on hold. Which is a terrible shame. You can see traces of this idea in the unlocked BIOS menus which do nothing because the logic needed to make it work is absent on the mobo.

Will definitely ask them why they made this decision, was it commercial or technical. MSI has used the same HM67 chipset and provides Optimus. So technical excuses are not very likely.

 

Well it looks like I definitely have this issue...(I have 6990's in CF, 2860QM):



My fans rarely move off 30%, even though they don't actually sound like they are on at all (after a cold boot). Looking back over the past three days via GPU-Z sensor log, they have been up to a max of 170 RPM, but that was like for a minute, and have hovered around under 100 RPM (sometimes staying as low as 3PM for long periods). When I restart the system, the fans come on for about 15 seconds quite high...then as soon as the logon screen comes up they are off again.

My FPS in games have also dropped rapidly (which tech support advised was due to the overheating and low Mhz I am getting).

Spoke with Premium Tech Support last night, and they are going to highlight to Customer Care that the system was 'dead on arrival' against my Service Tag! They have advised me to ask for a replacement system with 580's in Sli...which I will do, even if it means paying an extra £500/£600 (note: I am within the first 7 days cooling off period, laptop was delivered last wednesday).

So all in all not great luck on my first ever Alienware (Command Centre installed wrong, crossfire not enabled, US keyboard fitted - should have been uk, and now this fatal error)...I will say though, every Tech Support guy I have spoken to has been great, so hopefully Customer Care will follow their example.

 

GPUz is giving you false readings, HWiNFO64 will give you the right sensor readings, they are not in the 100s when they do spin they spin in the range of 2800-3800rpm. Even when they spin high GPUz sometimes shows zero or some low value.

 

Well, after a few calls to Customer Care/Technical Support...I have essentially agreed to return the laptop (being collected this Friday).

Technical Support were unable to obtain sign-off on a new system with the 580's, unless they had made three repair attempts to the laptop. They could only send someone out to replace the graphics cards/heat sinks (which would have still cost me the price difference between the 6990's and 580's).

So I have to return the existing system, and then once they have received it at their depot...begin the whole order process again, so will unfortunately be without a laptop for a couple of weeks. But I would rather do that, and know I am getting a brand new system...as who knows what the heat that has been getting generated in the system has damaged (due to the fans not working 99% of the time).

Hopefully Dell Sales will be able to do something on the UK price of the 580sli upgrade (now that the price has been reduced considerably in the US)...but I expect that might be a difficult ask.

 

I will be very interested to find out the reasoning and purpose behind this current design if Louis can share that with us. I'm not a raving fan of switchable graphics and the long battery life is a nicety more than a necessity for a gaming beast in my humble opinion. The versatility is a good selling point for those that want the best of both worlds. It is a cool feature, but would be even more cool on-the-fly. My impression is that many of the folks that are enthusiastic about switchable graphics find the need for a reboot to be inconvenient. If the design was implemented for a technical reason versus a cost factor, then I would be very glad that technical won out in the decision making process.

Nice post, mharidas. +1 rep

 

tatally agree, the only problem with the 6990M is the flikering. any thermal problem or hight tempeture, fan spee. the bios or the motherboard control that i think

 

Think so too. I can't imagine myself in a situation where I will need such a 'nicety'...

 

Well that's restored my faith in humanity!

Just had a call from Dell Sales...who had been called by Customer Care after I arranged my return.

They have decided to give me the upgrade to the 580's from free, as well as upgrading me from 1 years premium support to 3 years.

Completely unexpected...and I'm chuffed at this. It's not often in this day and age that I experience great customer care/service, so I would just like to highlight the fact to Bill at Dell that even though there are issues at the moment....they are going the extra mile to make things right.

Brilliant!

Now I just need to wait until the machine is collected on Friday, and I can get my new system ordered.

Hopefully everyone else facing similar issues, will also experience resolutions like this.

 

Same here. Great post. One of these days I'm going to find mharidas' LinkedIn profile and send it to HR.

Great to hear. Mind sharing that rep's name and email with me in PM, so I can send kudos to their manager?

 

Oh! One more thing that deserves its own separate post-

New Dell AMD drivers are in hand and being tested. Louis says they should be up this week. (Direct result of a Google+ Hangout question to Frank last Tuesday.)

You guys should definitely have "Driver talk" on your agenda.

 

Cool! Thanks for the heads up on the updated drivers, Bill. We will keep an open eye for them. We were definitely going to include that on the agenda.

@steviejones - Dell driver support is something you have been visibly passionate about in the Community, going back to when you where an R2 owner. Are you interested in starting a thread on this and jumping on the new driver release for testing. Time is short, but it would be nice if we could have some initial feedback on the call to go along with the driver talking point. You could actually open a new thread today in anticipation of the new Alienized AMD driver release this week.

I know I have been impressed more than once by mharidas' technical knowledge. That is one reason I asked him to be on the panel. Sharp fellow.

Agree about the kudos, too. I'm a fan of letting managers know about their awesome staff members and do so frequently. The flames always seem to come in droves from disgruntled customers, so the feedback helps keep things in perspective. The acknowledgment motivates employees to continue doing good things and I have always found that positive feedback from customers is an excellent KPI tool to assist in evaluating staff performance.

 

That is great news, are you based in the UK? I wish I could experience a similar service.

I received my M18x with CF 6990's on 19/10/11 and have the same overheating/ thermal shutdown issue as reported. So far I have spoken to Customers Services in India and Tech Support in Slovakia, pointing them to this thread, then had to escalate to a Team Leader. Three days later and no response, I have been chasing them every day!

I cannot stress the urgency enough in my emails; I use my machine for work, pushing 3D and sharing my desktop to remote clients, naturally when the machine overheats and shuts down, I lose connectivity .... and subsequently clients.

The issue is easily replicated with FurMark from a cold boot. I have been recording the logs in HWINFO64. I have seen card temps rise to 107*C before system shutdown.

Just monitoring Windows and IE usage, shows the card temps get around the 84-87*C before the fans kick in, when it does work.

Really frustrated by the shoddy support, and if I can get hold of them I dont think I have a choice but to ask for my money back.

 

I'm having issue with fans and thermal shutdown. Rev.F2 1129

I was playing bf3 at Max setting yesterday and the fps reduced badly , then it just shut off automatically , then it boot with fans running and the screen went black.
Before that ,while playing bf3 , it might due to overheat my screen keep frozen , nothing I can do and must force to shutdown and reboot.

Also having same issue like joker did.

 

@Mxrise Can you try something for me, please? Next time you boot up cold to start the day, just reboot as soon as you get to the desktop. Then monitor fan and thermal behavior from there. Let me know what happens. Thanks.