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    M15x and GTX 560M

    Discussion in 'Alienware M15x' started by dutchess63, Aug 11, 2011.

  1. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Here you go:
    3dmark06 = P17763 (new bestscore)
    3dmark11 = P2604 (new bestscore)
    3dmarkvantage = P9679 (GPU throttling)

    3dmarkvantage @ 25-24-18-18 = P11187 (new bestscore)

    See the attached pics
     

    Attached Files:

    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #101
  2. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    No guidelines?? Man I have you GUYS :D

    It looks very much like GPU throttling cause the CPU is not holding back.. so if its power throttling .. how come it only effects the GPU ? And not CPU ? How can we pinpoint the problem to know for sure.

    Are there any tools that can show exactly what is happening ?
     
    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #102
  3. KurtH

    KurtH Notebook Evangelist

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    Its cause Throttlestop is locking voltage to the CPU. Just like W said you will only be able to OC either the CPU or the GPU. I had to come to this truth too with my 940xm. The motherboard can only handle so much power draw.
     
    KurtH, Sep 8, 2011
    #103
  4. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    MBO or PSU ??
    mbo sounds a lot more trickier to me. (and potential dangerous to blow up the whole thing.. :D

    If its only psu .. well thats just a external sparepart that need be plugged in right ?
     
    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #104
  5. KurtH

    KurtH Notebook Evangelist

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    Well when i was going for top benches I was limited by my psu but after switching to a 240W PSU there is still the throttling problem when pushing both GPU and CPU. there is no way around it we are stuck. Ill hopefully be switching to an M17xR3 in the next month or less.
     
    KurtH, Sep 8, 2011
    #105
  6. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    I think the limiting factor is really the power table(s) in the system bios/EC, but that is determined by the limitations (real or perceived) of the motherboard and component power handling capacity. That's why the larger PSU offers limited benefits. Power is drawn from the PSU by the computer, subject to the limits imposed by the power scheme; the PSU does not push power to the computer.

    But that's not the end of anything. Power limits are just another factor in the o/c dance. However, it does mean that you can't just push the CPU and GPU to their limits and hope for the best.

    Try this in Vantage -- leave the 560M at max o/c to start, but set the 940xm to 23-22-26-26, with TDP @ 95W/81A and Throttlestop ON. See what happens and let us know.
     
    The Revelator, Sep 8, 2011
    #106
  7. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Well did that but right after the run I found out THAT my PSU was out.
    I plugged it out and in and it came back...but

    Is this an accident ?

    ARE you sure this is the right way ?
     
    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #107
  8. KurtH

    KurtH Notebook Evangelist

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    My PSU 150w popped many times durring extream benching
     
    KurtH, Sep 8, 2011
    #108
  9. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    The PSU tripped to protect itself. We'll need to reduce the load. Where exactly in the test did it happen? If completed, what were the scores?
     
    The Revelator, Sep 8, 2011
    #109
  10. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    thanks :) is this something to be afraid of ?
    or can I just continue, whats the risk here
     
    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #110
  11. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    In the end of STAR WARS (srry I dont know a better name :D
     
    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #111
  12. svl7

    svl7 T|I

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    Interestingly the CPU gets limited by the PSU, but the GPU gets limited by the mobo design... that's for sure. I was able to do some crazy CPU overclocks, but only with the 240W PSU, the stock one tripped at peaks of about 200W while the 240W let me use constantly 220W and sometimes more... :eek:
    So a bigger PSU can help, though as far as I can tell only when it comes to the CPU, and the CPU can take the power from the GPU (which is a problem).
     
    svl7, Sep 8, 2011
    #112
  13. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    New Calico (the second test)? That's strange. The second test is heavily GPU centric and crashes generally indicate too much GPU o/c, particularly the core setting. But I have never seen it cause the PSU to trip. It's almost always the CPU power demands that, if overdone, cause a BSOD or, rarely, a PSU trip. It may be that the stress is revealing an existing weakness in the PSU, but it is odd. You can't just keep dropping back the CPU settings or you kill yourself in the CPU tests. Assuming that the 560M is drawing as much or more power than the 6970M's, I would suggest dropping the 560M settings down to 850/800/1700 and multis to 22-21-24-24. Let us know.

    To clarify:
    1 core 22x
    2 cores 21x
    3/4 cores 24x
     
    The Revelator, Sep 8, 2011
    #113
  14. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    its New Calico yes.
    I update you shortly with the results
     
    dutchess63, Sep 8, 2011
    #114
  15. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Find attached the results for 22-21-24-24. 95W/81A gave more throttling, so went back to 93W/75A which gave slightly better results

    but stocks cpu are still best : P11187 3dv 910/850/1820
     

    Attached Files:

    dutchess63, Sep 9, 2011
    #115
  16. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Forget to mention Temps hit 96 celsius max
     
    dutchess63, Sep 9, 2011
    #116
  17. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    Well, my theory was wrong. Although I don't understand the dynamics very well, your GPU best performance so far obviously comes from max clocks (910, etc.) with stock (25-24-18-18) multipliers. So power limitations are not the problem, at least at these levels. Since you're already at max clocks on the 560M, the only question is how far you can o/c the CPU without crashing or causing the GPU to throttle causing GPU scores drop during the first two tests. Go slowly and see where it takes you. You need the highest multipliers you can support for the Vantage CPU tests (3 and 4), which demands very little from the GPU, but much from the CPU. The trick is finding the balance. Start walking the multipliers up, maybe 25-24-22-22 and see whether the GPU can hold it's clocks. If it does, try 25-24-23-23, then 26-25-23-23, etc. The 560M behaves differently than the 6970M, which tends to hold its clocks and force the CPU to throttle when power limits are approached. The 560M appears to throttle (or crash) the GPU first, presumably allowing the CPU to maintain its speed. You can use the logging capabilities of HWINFO64, ThrottleStop and GPU-Z to see exactly what the GPU and CPU are doing during the tests and adjust accordingly. You're the chief pioneer and arrow catcher here.
     
    The Revelator, Sep 10, 2011
    #117
  18. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Well I ran today about 25 runs, according to your guidelines and my own, but none of them really added anything except only marginal gain, it looks like 910/850/1820 @ stocks CPU really hit the sweetspot for this moment.

    I am a little bit dissapointed in the 940XM vs 740QM. I wanted to unleash the BEAST but its entirely not possible I am afraid.

    Would Nibitor be able to do something ? Any experiences ? I downloaded version 603 but that has no support for 560M at this moment..

    Or any other TOOLS welcome
     
    dutchess63, Sep 10, 2011
    #118
  19. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    this with 560M of course :D
     
    dutchess63, Sep 10, 2011
    #119
  20. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    It is disappointing and surprising. The Nvidia cards in the M15x all seem to end up being power sinks that suck the performance out of the system, so their potential is never realized. I'll be interested in further observations from svl7, widezu69 and other NV hands regarding the situation and options. KurtH may be right -- you just can't overclock both the 460/560M and the 940xm at the same time. I can see clearly enough that you couldn't max out both, but it seems inexplicable that you can't use at least some of the additional power of the 940xm to pull additional performance from your M15x. I continuously learn something new about these systems, but I'm not quite ready to accept this result yet. But I have no other misguided suggestions for the moment.
     
    The Revelator, Sep 10, 2011
    #120
  21. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    I think it is a setting somewhere. Very strange right after cpu clocks it throttles. Its a setting in bios or elswere. Have to digg deeper.. how to get there?

    btw >> No misguided suggestions in any way. I am very happy with ur suggestions.Many thanks fot ur ideas, I appreciate it
     
    dutchess63, Sep 10, 2011
    #121
  22. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    I have many ideas: would tweaking voltage give more juice?
    I am totally in the black here, but let me know and I will try it
     
    dutchess63, Sep 10, 2011
    #122
  23. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    Meant to ask earlier, but where was that 96C temperature reading? GPU? CPU? Maybe plain old thermal throttling is responsible for or contributing to limited performance. HWINFO64 gives good temp data for both CPU and GPU, as well as CPU power use. Start tracking the temps more closely. May have to repaste to assist the required cooling effort. The NV cards are usually cool runners, but the 940xm can hit high temps quickly when o/c'ed.
     
    The Revelator, Sep 10, 2011
    #123
  24. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    96 was 940 xm CPU. I pasted it 2 days ago.. when i put in. It only hit 96 when OC and still rarely (not average). For the rest its normal, just 10 degrees above GPU
     
    dutchess63, Sep 10, 2011
    #124
  25. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    I am now on new driver 280.36 but no better 3dmark results yet.
    Results are the same.

    Anybody with Nibitor experience?? Pls comment on how to tweak settings. There are throttle-timers.. which caught my attention. I was able to load the 560M bios but the settings with Nibitor are complex if not hexidecimal - so need some help
     
    dutchess63, Sep 11, 2011
    #125
  26. svl7

    svl7 T|I

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    There are no additional voltage options in the 560m VBIOS, same as with the 460m VBIOS, you're stuck with the stock setting. Only thing you can change are the clocks, but you can as well use Nvidia Inspector for this.
    No idea about throttling options.
     
    svl7, Sep 11, 2011
    #126
  27. Jdpurvis

    Jdpurvis Notebook Evangelist

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    I'd consider a repaste for your CPU. When I first installed my 940 xm, I found that temps could get into the 90's at 26,26,26,26. I repasted, and now maximum temp is in high 70's. Idle for myCPU tends to run in high 40's to low 50's - similar or a bit below my (admittedly puny) GPU.

    Joe
     
    Jdpurvis, Sep 12, 2011
    #127
  28. KurtH

    KurtH Notebook Evangelist

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    But what Wattage were you set at? Also what were you Doing when you hit temps in the 70's? Thats extreamly low temps if you were benching. Reason why i mention benching is cause dutchess is hitting these temps while benching not normal useage.
     
    KurtH, Sep 12, 2011
    #128
  29. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    Any progress Dutchess? Thread just sort of stalled without any further progress reports or conclusions. Bring us up to date.

    Thanks.
     
    The Revelator, Sep 17, 2011
    #129
  30. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Well, I am still working on trying things out but i.e. Nibitor as a sw tool is too unknown to me, just to play with soleley on my own.. and we dont wanna frie this beautifull 560M too fast.. do we :D

    I am studying tru some other posts and other forums i.e. 3dguru but the card is just to new. Any ideas? Sure I would try them .. I leave that up to you, just put a reply here with your arguments and I will seek into it.

    btw Nvidia released a new beta 285.27 which supposed to be a performance upgrade meaning 5-10% faster gameplay. I found that the 560M in the higher cores 900 and 910 (see above posts) when OC crashes with this driver, so for now I reverted back to 280.26 that gives better results with (my) 560M.

    So far I am very happy with these:
    P11187 3dmarkvantage
    P2604 3dmark11
    P17763 3dmark06
     
    dutchess63, Sep 19, 2011
    #130
  31. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    Nothing wrong with those scores. Just checking in; unfortunately, I have no new strategy or theory. You'll be the first to know if that changes. Be well.
     
    The Revelator, Sep 19, 2011
    #131
  32. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Thanks. I will report to you guys 1st thing when new opportunities arise.
    Take C
     
    dutchess63, Sep 19, 2011
    #132
  33. The-Nutter

    The-Nutter Notebook Enthusiast

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    where did you buy the card from e-bay seems to be fresh out of 560m's :(
     
    The-Nutter, Oct 9, 2011
    #133
  34. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    The Nutter, try here: http://web.eurocom.com/ec/upgrades.html

    $291 USD + shipping

    dutchess63, this thread has proved a goldmine of information for me...I've long been deliberating over an upgrade for my m15x's 260m...I think I'm sold on the idea of a 560m now...it looks like good value and I'm definitely after value...buying a house really puts a damper on your technological budget!

    I'm a little unexperienced in the ways of modifying notebooks though...so this shall be a journey of discovery for sure.

    The only problem I've seen so far is Eurocom is trying to charge me $223 for shipping to New Zealand, this seems completely rediculous!!! Ouch.
     
    Ninefingers, Oct 14, 2011
    #134
  35. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    Does anyone know of a supplier in the Asia/Pacific region that might stock the 560m with better shipping rates?

    Done some quick searching, haven't found much yet.

    The other option is to ship it to a friend in the USA and get him to ship it on to me with cheaper shipping.

    Edit: Going to email Eurocom and see if I can arrange a cheaper/slower shipping option!
     
    Ninefingers, Oct 14, 2011
    #135
  36. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    For future reference: i7 Q820 - GTX 260m all stock clocks: 3d vantage: 5761
     
    Ninefingers, Oct 14, 2011
    #136
  37. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    Ninefingers, Oct 14, 2011
    #137
  38. noelho

    noelho Notebook Consultant

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    have you ordered already? do you want to combine orders and ship 2 cards so we can split the shipping and save costs? =DD ..

    im on the north shore, auckland .. which part of NZ are you in? =DDD
     
    noelho, Oct 15, 2011
    #138
  39. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    Hi noelho,

    I'm in Wellington, could bundle them up!

    After reading my way thru the mammoth 6970m thread I'm thinking about getting one of those now instead.

    Only $100 more than the 560m, slightly more installation hassles but a lot more performance...gonna have a think about it for a couple of days before I decide though.

    Could share shipping on 2x 6970s if you're keen to take the plunge! :D
     
    Ninefingers, Oct 15, 2011
    #139
  40. noelho

    noelho Notebook Consultant

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    ouch .. thats so tempting!! ... at least either way i will have someone in nz to share issues with! haha =D

    how are we gonna split the shipping between auckland and wellington though? ship to one person and then ship to the other person? then fingers crossed the card doesnt get ESD-ed by NZ post! lol
     
    noelho, Oct 15, 2011
    #140
  41. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    I can get free tracked shipping at work with NZ Couriers, so I don't mind receiving it and flicking the other one up to you, with the utmost tender loving care of course!

    Just had a look, C$847 (NZD$1043) for 2 with shipping
    C$448 (NZD$551) for 1 with shipping

    So we save $59 by getting 2 at once, 30 bucks each! :p

    I am tempted to just go for the 560m....but it has been 2 years since I got my m15x and it'd be good to give it a nice upgrade. Argh...decisions!
     
    Ninefingers, Oct 15, 2011
    #141
  42. noelho

    noelho Notebook Consultant

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    i know what you mean ... sigh ... maybe i should just hang tight and stop being an itchy fingered bugger .. its not like i game that often anyway .. =D

    yes ok .. executive decision time! save money for vacation! that will save my sanity more than a new gpu! =D

    i wish you best of luck with either GPU though .. i look forward to reading about your experience with the upgrade =D
     
    noelho, Oct 15, 2011
    #142
  43. Ninefingers

    Ninefingers Notebook Consultant

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    Hahaha yeah...hard to resist those rushes of blood to the head! HmmmmmmmmMMMMMMMMMMMMM
     
    Ninefingers, Oct 15, 2011
    #143
  44. The Revelator

    The Revelator Notebook Prophet

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    FWIW, Eurocomm and upgradeyourlaptop (eBay) are the same people.
     
    The Revelator, Oct 15, 2011
    #144
  45. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    HolyCow the 560m is completly sold out @ Eurocom.
    I think the posts here were very good for business :D

    Hopefully the 580m will come cheaper soon so I can try that too.
    Curious how that develops..
     
    dutchess63, Oct 22, 2011
    #145
  46. Mexic00ls

    Mexic00ls Notebook Deity

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    I know im trying to hold.on till the 580m is available, see that the 6990m are at a pretty nice price i might pull the trigger on an ati
     
    Mexic00ls, Oct 22, 2011
    #146
  47. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    From M17x forum:

    Dell 560M VBIOS HAS BEEN RELEASED
    Release Date: 10/10/2011
    Version: 70.26.36.00.09 , A02
    Download Type: BIOS
    File Format: Hard Drive
    File Size: 8 MB

    Has anybody tried to update his card with this release ?
    What does it do ?
    (remember from my other posts - throttling 560m does happen with 940xm)

    My Eurocom 560m vbios version is 70.26.29.00.06
     

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    dutchess63, Oct 24, 2011
    #147
  48. dutchess63

    dutchess63 Notebook Consultant

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    Did anyone tried overclocking with new drivers 285.62 yet?

    I have the impression 285.62 crashes earlier compared to older 280.26

    Max I can push = core 885 versus 910 with 280.26.
    In 3dmarkvantage the difference is about 800 Performance points less

    Next to it being a horrible installation, had to remove manually the old driver, modify the inf / add my device/hw ID,
    load the correct sections in inf, etc etc
    A few nvidia seconds (read hours) later ...

    I wonder why it made WHQL
     
    dutchess63, Oct 30, 2011
    #148
  49. Trewhela

    Trewhela Notebook Consultant

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    did you try the new ones ??? i try 900 and crash im at 880 at the moment and all good
     
    Trewhela, Nov 24, 2011
    #149
  50. khoa_nguyen2

    khoa_nguyen2 Newbie

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    Hello, so it is possible to upgrade to gtx560m on the alienware m15x. I wonder if it need any different x-plate or driver? Thanks. Sorry for posting this on this thread.
     
    khoa_nguyen2, Dec 3, 2011
    #150
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