Any recent switchers regret their decision?

Now that the honey moon is over, do you have any regrets?

I switched back in March. I made the switch out of frustration of having dealt with a faulty HP for almost a year and then getting another defective HP as a "loaner" to use while my system was being repaired.

At the time I bought the "middle" MacBook with the DVD writer and 1GB of RAM. I upgraded it to a 160GB HDD and loved OS X. The initial purchase was $1408 after taxes in LA County.

The "switch" was probably a thousand times easier than I thought it would be. I learned all the ins and outs of OS X within a day and had an "equivalent" for every piece of software in just a couple of days after that.

I still needed Windows compatibility, so I picked up Vista Home Premium and installed it via Boot Camp.

However, over the last two months, I've really found myself envying "PC" hardware. Especially when I start to look at prices.

I spent $1408 on a notebook with a 13.3" screen, an 80GB HDD, 1GB of RAM, and an Intel GMA950.

For around $800, you can get a 17" system from Everex that has a Turion X2 (yeah not quite as fast as the Core 2 Duo, but for so much less? I can deal with that), a DEDICATED GeForce Go 7600 256MB, 1GB of RAM (can handle 4GB) and a 100GB HDD with a bay for a second drive.

Whats more is that, for around $600, you can get a 15.4" notebook with a better integrated GPU, more drive space, a gig of RAM, DVD writer, etc.

My friend just went and purchased the $2500 MacBook Pro. I can't help but think of how he could have gotten a similar system, spec wise, for at least $1,000 less.

People talk about the build quality of the Macs and other superior features. I will admit, my MacBook is very well built. It feels solid and it will hopefully last for years, should I decide to keep it.

But that doesn't matter when you consider just how much you don't get for the price.

$1400 (after taxes) for a system with a DVD writer and the lowest end integrated GPU currently available?

$2500 for a 256MB GPU?

$2000 for a 128MB GPU?

I do love OS X. It's much faster than Windows and it works a lot better. Leopard simply blows away Vista in every way possible.

But the OS is only one part of the entire computer. You can have an awesome OS, but it doesn't matter if the hardware really isn't up to snuff. OS X doesn't justify the $1,000+ premium on notebooks versus similarly spec'd notebooks.

OS X isn't as headache free as people would like you to believe either. Just as all the people who had ot reinstall their OS after downloading the Safari 3 beta. I was one of them. Or how Finder crashed on me when I was trying to burn a DVD filled with data the other night.

But above everything else, the software is what matters most. iLife is great. Photoshop runs amazingly well on OS X. But if you use anything other than iLife, iWork, or Photoshop, you can run into real snags and this is where Windows shines.

When it comes to 3rd party software, the choices you have with Windows blow away whats available on OS X. Nero, for example, is years ahead of Toast, despite the pretty GUI Toast has.

Then theres the prices of software and other things. For example, TV tuners. A decent tuner on OS X will cost you at least $200. For a desktop PC, you can get one that has outstanding image quality for less than $50 shipped.

Don't even get me started on how much of a joke "DVD Player" is either. The image quality is absolutely terrible in fullscreen. Leopard is better, but still well behind the options available for Windows. The difference between DVD Player fullscreen and WinDVD fullscreen is just as dramatic as the image quality between VHS and DVD.

Getting a DVD drive replaced on your MacBook out of warranty will cost you nearly $300, unless you want to spend about $250 for the drive and rip the system apart yourself. On most PC notebooks you can simply buy the drive for around $70 and loosen a couple of screws to slide out the old one and slide in the new one.

Gaming? Us Intel Mac users can forget about classic Mac games all together. And games that run under OS X? Better hope they have a UB or you might as well forget about. Sure you can install Windows, but then you just ended up paying $1,000 more for a Windows system than you would have if you had just gotten a Windows PC to begin with.

Macs are great for organizing your digital photos, music library, and some other things. But considering the cost of the hardware, it's not worth the premium you pay. $1400 for a 13.3" notebook with a DVD writer and an integrated GPU is insane. As is spending $2,000 on a 15.4" notebook. No matter how good OS X is, the cost of the premium to use Apple software is just too much and too high.

In the past I used to recommend Macs to every one.

But now, after having used one for a few months, I can no longer do that. The simple reason is the cost. It costs too much for too little when it comes to the hardware. The software itself doesn't justify the $1,000 premium.

At this point, this will probably be the only Mac I ever purchase unless Apple gets more realistic with hardware prices. I'm tempted to sell my system, and I've had a few serious offers.

At this point I'm growing frustrated with my iPod as well. I love my 80GB iPod, but I'm frustrated by the fact that Apple doesn't offer subscription video or music services. I see all the choices on Windows, but none for iPods. I know not all people think "renting music" is a good idea, and I used to be in that same boat. But now that I think about the money I've spent at iTunes.. if I had been renting music the entire time I've been using iTunes, I wouldn't even have spent half as much. $15 a month to have access to all the music I want is nothing. Thats not even lunch for two days, or barely any gas.

I guess I'm just frustrated by the fact that I have a $1400 computer that has an integrated GPU. At that time, Apple was using ATI GPUs. If it had come with say.. an ATI X1400 128MB or something along those lines, I wouldn't have any complaints. Even if the MacBook was thicker, it'd be better. But as it is right now, I am not happy at all. Not happy with the hardware and definitely not happy with the lack of choices regarding music, movies, and software.

I looked my friend strangely when she switched from an iBook to a Dell a couple of years ago. She told me I'd "regret" my switch to a Mac a few months ago. Honestly, she was right.

 

Wait, similarly configured hardware for $1000 less? Tell me where you're finding a Core 2 Duo laptop with 1 GB RAM and an 80 GB HDD for $99 US (considering the lowest MacBook is $1099 US) . But really, you're looking at the MacBook Pro, which always has had a price premium. The MacBook is closer in pricing to its PC competitors.

Its hard to compare Macs to other PCs...its like comparing Hyundai to Lexus, as someone else put it . A lot of the features Lexus has Hyundai also has, but Hyundai costs $20'000 less. Does that mean that because everyone else got their Hyundai for $20'000 cheaper than your Lexus, your Lexus "isn't worth it?"

That said, Mac isn't for everyone, and nor is Windows for everyone. Sorry to hear you're not enjoying your Mac experience, but as former Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau once said, "You can please some people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

With all this said, I switched in April 2007 and I definitely have not regretted my switch. I plan to get another Mac when its time to get a new computer. I agree that Apple has its flaws (corporate, hardware, software) but nothing's perfect and in my opinion Apple's good things far outnumber its bad things.

Watch this thread attract Apple haters like magnets .

 

I don't regret my switch at all. In fact it's made my life a lot easier than most switchers because of the mac specific software. You can't get things like MacDoppler, MacTNC, or SnapzPro that work so well right away. Hell, some stuff you can't find at all for windows like; iStatPro, Growl, smcFanControl, and parallels.

Sounds like you were expecting it to be Windows, but prettier. Well, it's not. OS X is a unix OS. Which is very different from Windows. If you decide to stick with your macbook then you'll notice that more and more third party peripherals and software are becoming available. If you hate it that much I'll buy it from you. For 50 bucks.


Oh, and look through a few of my posts to see why the Macbook Pro is not overpriced. The macbook, however, is a fair bit overpriced.

 

dell 1330 cost same as mbp

 

Sounds to me like the real problem is that you had no idea what you were purchasing.

You like subscription music services, but got an iPod.
You wanted a dedicated GPU, bought a MacBook.

 

That's a good point; I think the real issue here is hardware choice. In the PC/Windows world, you can just get a cheaper processor and spend the money on dedicated graphics instead. Or a bigger hard drive, or whatever. In the Mac laptop world, it's just... Macbook or MacBook Pro. Since the MBP is loaded to the gills it's not such a big issue, but with the Macbook, Apple made certain compromises (particularly GPU and screen size) and some people might have preferred to compromise in other areas.

So for gamers, yeah, Macbook really does suck compared to some of the other options you can buy with the same money. For certain other kinds of users, it's just great.

 

Actually, I feel that they cost more because of the 13.3" screen. Laptops with LCD screens smaller than 14.1" begin to increase in price as the size goes down. The reason being they have to fit the standard laptop hardware into a much smaller package. The macbook was designed for bloggers and students, and it fills that position quite well.

 

It may not reduce the price, but it's still a compromise of sorts. Whereas with a bigger screen you'd compromise portability a bit. (Although not too much with the MBP.) In the PC world, you have more options about what to compromise in this sense, too. I agree Macbook works for its designed purpose. But if you like large screens and/or good gaming capabilities, Macbook is not for you.

 

If you get a Dell, you're getting a Nissan Sentra. If you get an Asus, you're getting a Toyota Camry. If you get an MBP, you're getting an Alfa Romeo.

After 15 yrs of PC usage (Windows and Linux for programming/media/office/school/gaming) and 15 yrs of Mac-hating, I recently got my MBP and I just can't keep my hands off it.

The OS is much, much, much better than Vista (yes, I've been using Vista for a while and it's buggy, a resource hog and it's more limited performance-wise than XP), and Vista is here to stay. Switching to a Unix-like OS makes more sense than ever, and MacOSX is just how I ever dream Linux would become.

Also, on hardware, there are no equivalent laptops (both in specs and in quality) to the middle MBP for less than $2000 (you can find some with cheap crappy parts maybe for $1700), plus the fact that simply there are NO laptops with similar form factor and weight while having similar specs. So the $1000 Apple-tax you describe should be weighed a bit, maybe calling a $300-400 Apple-tax is more realistic. And, still, I think it is worth every penny, considering the quality of what you get.

 

I don't understand what you are saying, clarify this for me will you...

Asus G1S:
Processor & Cache Memory:
- Intel® Core™2 Duo Processor T7500
- 2.2GHz, FSB: 800MHz, 4MB L2 Cache

Chipset
- Mobile Intel® 965 PM Express Chipset + ICH8M

Main Memory
- 2GB (2 x 1GB) DDR2 667 MHz SDRAM
- Expansion up to 2GB SDRAM

Display
- 15.4" WSXGA+ (1680x1050) ColorShine TFT-LCD
- Asus Splendid Video Intelligent Technology
2nd Display:
- ASUS Direct Messenger for In-Game system information

Video Graphics & Memory
- NVIDIA GeForceGo 8600M GT GPU 256 MB Physical VRAM

Hard Drive
HDD: 160 GB (5400rpm) SATA
Optical Drive: 8x DVD Super Multi drive with Lightscribe
Card Reader: MMC, SD, MS, MS-Pro

Interface
- 1 x HDMI Port
- 1 x VGA port(D-sub 15 pin)
- 4 x USB 2.0 ports
- 1 x 4 in 1 Card Reader
- 1 x Express card
- 1 x Microphone-in jack
- 1 x Headphone-out jack (S/PDIF)
- 1 x IEEE 1394 port
- 1 x RJ11 Modem jack for phone line
- 1 x RJ45 LAN Jack for LAN insert
- 1 x TV-out(S-Video)
- 1 x Line-in jack
- 1 x External SATA Port

Fax/Modem/LAN/WLAN
- Integrated Intel® High Definition Audio chip (Azalia) compliant MDC fax/modem and 10/100/1000 Base T.
- Integrated 802.11a/b/g/n
- Built-in Bluetooth™ V2.0+EDR

Audio
- Built-in Intel® High Definition Audio ( Azalia ) compliant audio chip,
- Built-in speaker and microphone

KeyBoard
- Standard Keyboard with 88 keys

Software:
Operation System
- Genuine Microsoft® Windows® Vista Home Premium

Battery Pack & Life
- Li-Ion 71WHrs (8 cells: 4800mAh, 4S2P)
- Charging time: 4.5hrs/2.5hrs (System On/ Off) to 95%
AC Adapter
- Output: 19V DC, 4.74A, 90W
- Input: 100— 240V AC, 50/60Hz universal

Dimension & Weight
- 324mm * 284mm * 37.4 mm(W x D x H)
- 3.1 Kg (8-cell)

Apple MacBook Pro:

Display 15.4-inch (diagonal), 1440 by 900 resolution, TFT widescreen Processor 2.2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
Memory 2GB (two SO-DIMMs) 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM (PC2-5300)
PCI Express graphics NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT with 128MB of GDDR3 SDRAM and dual-link DVI
Hard disk drive3 120GB Serial ATA
Slot-loading optical drive 8x SuperDrive (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
Expansion One FireWire 400, one FireWire 800, two USB 2.0 ports, and ExpressCard/34 slot
Video Built-in iSight camera (1.3 MP), DVI, VGA (DVI to VGA adapter included)
Audio Combined optical digital input/audio line in, combined optical digital output/headphone out, stereo speakers, microphone
Ethernet Built-in 10/100/1000BASE-T (Gigabit)
Wireless Built-in AirPort Extreme (802.11n); built-in Bluetooth 2.0+EDR
Modem Apple USB Modem (sold separately)
Input Apple Remote; full-size, illuminated keyboard with ambient light sensor; scrolling trackpad
Weight 5.4 pounds
Footprint 14.1 by 9.6 inches
Thickness 1.0 inch
Video accessories DVI to VGA adapter included (other adapters sold separately)
Hardware accessories 85W MagSafe Power Adapter, AC wall plug, power cord, lithium-polymer battery
Limited warranty and service Your MacBook Pro comes with 90 days of telephone support and a one-year limited warranty. For more information, visit Apple support or call 800-823-2775.

So the Asus G1S-A1 can be found for roughly 1979 CAD (1872 USD)
The MacBook Pro 15.4" is 2199 CAD (not including student discount) (1999 USD)

so how is a $1000 difference according to you anywhere close to real?

For 20 extra dollars in the macbook pro you get a WAY lighter, WAY smaller, WAY better looking notebook. Not to mention the LED backlighting, backlit keyboard, WAY more included software (iLife, Mac OSX, etc.), roughly 4 extra hours of battery life, a way more sturdy design, and optical in and outs.

So what's missing from the G1s in the macbook pro?
A higher resolution (maybe a bad thing depending on who you are), hdmi port (moot point pretty much with dvi to hdmi cables), eSata (firewire 800 is in real world speeds just as fast due to HDD speed writing limitations), S-video (MBP has adapter that granted costs $20), A modem (when was the last time you used one anyway? If you want tho the modem can be bought from apple as well), 4 USBs instead of 2 (Kinda envy this but solved by a hub)

So in total you're paying for a way nicer laptop without retarded LEDS on the side of it for roughly $80 extra to make it spec'd the same minus the 128MB of VRAM. If you go to the 2.4GHZ version of the macbook pro then its no longer comparable so you can't say that its an extra 500 dollars more seeing as how the 2.4 is faster....

so 1000 is ridiculous...

I have used pcs all my life as well, being a tech for many people I know because of my computer knowledge, hated using macs in school growing up like 10 years ago. I research large purchases to death, after exhaustively researching the Asus G1S-A1 I had made up my mind to purchase it, until I saw a macbook pro running xp. It was beauitful and ridiculously light (i had debated an XPS 1330). I would not have bought a MBP if it didn't have the ability to natively run Windows (my choice of versions of course, unlike the mandatory choice of windows vista in the G1s) I would not have bought it, because I have many pc software requirements. I love Mac OSX on the whole though, leaps and bounds above the older MAC OS's. So I get a way better laptop that will last way longer, amazing software choices, and for a very minimal extra amount of money.

To further put this in perspective, I bought my 2.4GHZ MBP (the faster one, also with 256MB of video ram, also ddr3 ) on eBay for 2000 USD brand new sealed in the box, 2025 with shipping to me way up here in Canada. So I ended up spending way less perhaps because of the no GST and getting that much better of a laptop.

APERTURE rocks my socks

So that's why I am not a dissatisfied mac switcher and why I think your arguement involving the macbook pro is completely bogus, sorry for the long read

P.S. macs also have the added advantage of having a region free DVD player
P.P.S. the Asus G1S-A1 is also only expandable to 2 GB of Ram, kinda limiting for future proofing, no?

 

Not quite $1000, about $750.

 

If you're trying to point out the MBP's superiority, you probably shouldn't have used an Alfa as its car parallel.

A MBP is more like a Lexus, whereas a PC is like a toyota. Same thing under the skin, but you pay a ton more for the name.

 

Oh how we all tend allow thee cheepee priceee to cloud our judgement. Did you ever think that putting all of your money towards specs alone is definitely NOT a good idea? First off, Everex?? Who are they? It's not a well known brand and after you buy this and fall in love with the great specs and then something weird starts happening you try to call the 800 number and HOPE to get somebody on the phone that speaks good english and understands your problem.
See I would rather have good specs and fantastic customer service then a lower price and fantastic specs and end up getting upset that I can't get any phone support and nobody is helping me. Until recently Dell has always been known for cheap but now they are starting to make higher end notebooks and they are getting up in the Sony Vaio price range but one thing hasn't changed is their horrible customer service.
Keep that in mind, you get what you pay for. Enjoy your Macbook.

 

LOL... Agreed.

Apparently, it has changed. I mean you can look in the Dell forum on this site and you can still find some complaints, but it's nothing like it was last year. I think they're probably not up to Apple yet (at least for the consumer Inspiron line) but from reading the forum posts most people seem to get their problems resolved. There are some complaints now due to order delays, but that's kind of a separate issue.

 

Dell stepped up their design and quality. They realized their current plan wasn't working out (HP won over) and they fixed it. Kudos. And while I still think the current Inspirons aren't good looking , they're better than before and the XPS M1330 definitely shows they can design (or find someone who can design ). Now their main concern is shipping all the orders they're getting! .

 

I wouldn't wish an Alfa Romeo on anyone..unreliable and far better sports vehicles abound.

Not quite true either. Spend $2K on a ThinkPad and you'll get a steel/titanium chassis with a roll cage, a keyboard that is spillproof with a drain hole, an accelerometer that instantly locks the harddrive if it senses the machine being dropped while turned on, a keyboard that in terms of tactal feedback rivals or equals the MBPro and a relatively small amount of installed bloatware by PC standards.

 

I was waiting, waiting and waiting for my dell m1330 xps (excellent looks, xps support), other wise would get inspiron 14.1" (but, I would have to deal with India support).
MacBook, fair price (cheaper than m1330) and english support w.3year warranty.
I'm very, very happy and shure will enjoy my MacBook.

 

Oh, puh-leeeeze.

 

Isn't the Macbook pretty much the cheapest 13.3" computer you can get these days? I know it is at least a couple of hundred cheaper than the laptops in this size that I've been looking at.

I know a lot of people have already mentioned this, but comparing the price on a 17" PC to a 13.3" Macbook is not a good comparison. The smaller form factor and the improved battery life that you get with integrated graphics cards are actually considered positives for a lot of people and worth paying more for.

I'm not a Mac fanatic, and I prefer using Windows as my main OS, but pricing really doesn't seem that out of line anymore.

 

Apple needs to make a 15.4 MacBook for around $1200. I want a Mac, but I need/want a 15.4 inch screen and don't want to spend the $2k needed to get the MBP. Apple needs to make an effort to appeal to more people. They'd get a lot more sales that way.

 

apple is such a success specifically because they don't do that. they appeal to only certain segments on purpose- it makes it a little more mystical and validates premium macbook pro purchases. they are making a ton of cash profits.

the apple tax is pretty low these days. they give the edu discount to anyone who asks, so you knock $200 off the price of a macbook pro. that means 1799 and 2299 pricing. the 1799 system is very reasonably priced. the 2299 system is expensive, but in large part you are paying a premium for the faster processor. the 2.4ghz processor is considerably more expensive than the 2.2 ghz one. the last notch up the chain always is. its unfortunate that they crippled the gpu on the less expensive machine, but very few people would buy the more expensive one otherwise, because most people don't value an extra .2ghz of processing power the same way intel does. its intel's fault for making it expensive, and apple's fault for choosing to implement it, but i don't feel like apple is price gouging. it still doesn't seem right, but apple isn't really charging you 500 bucks for the gpu. its the cpu that merits the bulk of that cost.

the only other machines that offer comparable hardware to the macbook pro are comparably priced when trying to match configurations. there are cheaper alternatives but you either pay performance, design, bulk, battery life, screen quality, keyboard quality, or most likely, a combination.

 

Well, they gain some from people who upgrade to the MBP, and they lose some with people who decide to buy from other companies instead. It's a bit of a tradeoff.

...unless you want it in black. That'll be an extra $125, please!

Don't you have to at least claim to be a member of an educational institution?

I agree... I think even without the student discount, for $2000 it's expensive but not unreasonably so.

Yup. But in the PC world you could just opt for the better GPU without upgrading the processor too. With Macs, Steve decides which configurations you can buy and which you can't. But you're right that Apple isn't really gouging... they're just making you buy one thing you might not care about much in order to get another thing that you care about.

I agree with that.

 

Well I've had my macbook for a week now, maybe its too soon to comment but so far the switch has been mostly positive.

The Good:
I love the hardware with its neat little touches.

The OS is slick and by that I mean its simple and very fast esp with bootup and shutdown.

The Bad:

Don't like the noise the superdrive makes when loading a DVD/CD

Although the OS is fantastic the apple software is another matter. I cant use quicktime to watch xvid files because of long lag issues with the codec; I've had to resort to VLC.

I had to resort to VLC when watching region locked DVD's because I couldn't find any programs to bypass the region lock in iDVD (easily done in windows)

Couldn't find tab browsing feature in Safari so had to get Firefox

iTunes will not monitor folders instead it duplicates my mp3's into its iTunes folder which bugs me to death. I prefer using my own file structure to manage my music. I've ended getting songbird - for a pre-release its well implemented.

So my point is, I love my macbook, impressed by OSX but had to find alternatives to apple software which i found a little dissapointing.

just my 2 cents.

 

Well, all CD drives make noise...I find the MacBook to be pretty quiet after a while.

Yes, use VLC. Don't depend on all Apple-created software . Third party is good.

And you enable tabbed browsing in Safari > Preferences. Also, if you don't want to use Safari anyways, you can try out Camino, which is Firefox with a more Mac look, same developer (Mozilla), but you lose all the add-ons of Firefox, if you like to use those.

 

I don't mind that. The little noise it makes upon system bootup annoys me though (not the chime; i'm referring to the superdrive's whirling noise

VLC is great. XVID is a bit outdated though . You have a great machine now...you can afford to watch h264

QT is still better for watching large blu-ray rips though, or any incredibly large video. I've found that mplayer and vlc simply can't keep up - especially if you scrub or skip along the movie. QT does take a while to load everything at the beginning, but after that there are very few problems.

VLC is great isn't it? it works with apple remote too without 3rd party software

Okay this one isn't being fair. That's like someone saying "I could't do this or that in MSIE, so I had to use firefox in windows"...well...of course! True, safari is lightyears better than MSIE 7, but it's still not firefox or camino.

And actually, you can turn on tabbed browsing in Safari - it's on by default in 3.0.3, but it's under Preferences in 2.0.

A lot of the iLife stuff tends to do this. Doesn't bother me for music since it does it so well, but iPhoto makes a mess of my files (I keep my pictures organized by series/volume/chapter and within rar and zip files, which I can read without unpacking them...iPhoto makes a huge mess out of them).

Itunes tries to do this in Windows too - ah well, it's just a different philosophy about organization, sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse.

Hrm, I guess - but even in Windows, other than the OS and the Office Suites, what other microsoft software do you really use? it's mostly 3rd party stuff as well.

 

ok I take the tab browsing comment back, like I said I only had it for a week

Nothing wrong with using 3rd party software, been doing it all my computing life. Its just the apple PR machine had me believe that I wont need to rely on 3rd party solutions, that Steve Jobs had thought of everything. Ha ha well he is just human like the rest of us

 

3rd party is a very good thing. that is why everyone groaned when the iphone was announced to be locked down to 3rd party dev's...

 

Blasphemy! He is a man-god, son of Zeus!... ... ...

 

No, I knew exactly what I was purchasing. It's just that, after a few months of using it, I now know I made the wrong decision.

I've had iPods for years now. It's just recent that I started getting frustrated with the lack of choices for an iPod.

Because I shouldn't have to spend $2000 to get a system with a 128MB GPU.

I honestly don't believe that at all. Macs are well built, but they are not so much better than Dells or any other PC manufacturer. Yes a Dell might be thicker and not look as sleek, but I cannot use my MacBook on my lap for more than half an hour before it gets uncomfortably warm just from browsing the web and chatting. Or the fact that Macs generally include Matsu****a drives that live up to the censored portion of their name. I can't even burn DVDs reliably over 2x. Or the problems with squeaky keyboards on the MacBooks, the yellowing screens on the new MacBook Pros, or the extreme heat issues the first generation MacBook and MacBook Pros had or the leaking cooling system of the old G5s.

I won't deny that OS X is great. Because it is. Leopard is great too. Is it as much better than Vista as you say? Well, I was a Vista beta tester and I've been running Vista Home Premium for the same amount of time as I've had OS X. I previously used XP for more than 5 years. Compared to XP, Vista's performance is exactly the same for me. I have yet to see why people say it's slower than XP. It boots faster (40 seconds versus a minute and a half), software opens faster, and it generally just feels snappier. Resource hog? Go use Leopard I'm sorry, but its true. Buggy? I have yet to come across any bugs in Vista.

OS X is nice. My argument is not against OS X at all. It's against the cost of the overall package of a Mac.

You keep talking about the build quality, but honestly, I don't consider a system that gets too hot to use on my lap just by browsing the web a very high quality and well built system. Smaller form factor? An inch versus an inch and a half? A little under 6lbs versus 6.5lbs? There really isn't that much difference. Especially when you are using it on a desk most of the time. In that case, the half inch and extra half pound or full pound generally becomes irrelevant.

And lets look at the specs for a second. A Dell Inspiron 1520 at $1294 will come with a Core 2 Duo 2GHz (Santa Rosa), 2GB of RAM, a 1680x1050 15.4" glossy screen, 256MB GeForce 8600M GT (the same one as in the $2500 MacBook Pro) DVD writer, 160GB drive, etc. Thats just about half the cost. When you consider how much it would cost for a 2.4GHz processor, you literally come to a $1,000 "Apple Tax"

Read what I said above. $1300 will get you a slightly slower processor than the $2000 MacBook Pro, but a better GPU and all of the other same options. So that is $700 less before taxes right there. You have to spend an additional $500 to get an extra 128MB video memory and slightly faster processor.

Sitting on a desk, your lap, or in a bag it doesn't really make that much of a difference. 2lbs is not very much at all, if there is even that much of a difference between a MacBook Pro and cheaper yet just as powerful alternatives.

MacBook Pros and other 15.4" notebooks go in the same case, so how does this matter? Unless the 15.4" system is 2 or more inches thick, it really doesn't matter. Especially with most being an inch and a half or less.

Functionality is more important than looks.

Which has caused yellowing colors to show up in many of the new MacBook Pros. It also isn't any brighter, it just supposedly offers longer life.

Which is nice, but how often do you type in the dark? On top of that, I know how to type and know where the keys are. I don't need another light eating up my battery life

Mac OS X, Garage Band, iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD are all nice. Garage Band is great too, I love it. But none of those pieces of software are worth the premium.

But as I said before, it's about the 3rd party software. Where are the games? Where is the alternative to Nero (toast is a joke)? What about playing DVDs? DVD Player is horrible.

Real world? Not at all. Rated? Sure.

Which heats up to the point where the user should worry about whether they want to have children in the future or not.

Which a lot of Windows notebooks now include as well.

Windows PCs that include the GeForce 8600M GT are all HDCP certified, so you can add a blu-ray or HD-DVD drive if you'd like.

For $50! Any system that costs more than $1,000 should include a modem out of principle, even if it is unlikely to ever be used.

MacBook Pro with 256MB of RAM costs $1300 or so more than an equivalent Dell, $1,000 when you consider the cost to throw in a 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo

Prove that please. It's a whole lot easier to make Windows region free than it is OS X.

Then why didn't I get a dedicated GPU? A $1300 Dell has the same GPU as the $2500 MacBook! I don't call that getting what I pay for at all.

They've been around since the 80s making servers and other PCs. The one I referenced has had very high reviews across the board with almost no complaints at all.

Exactly. They need 15.4" notebook around $1200 with a dedicated GPU that isn't crippled in some way.

My whole issue is the price of the hardware. Yes the hardware is nice. Even when you take the software and other little things about the hardware (like backlit keyboard), you're still paying a lot more than you would for an equivalent, or very close, PC.

I like OS X. I just don't like that I paid $1400 for a system that doesn't include a dedicated GPU. I shouldn't have to pay $2000 for a system with a 128MB GPU when systems that cost $700 less come with double the memory. I was okay with my purchase at first because I thought I would be using OS X exclusively. But lately I've found myself in Windows Vista a lot more because of.. well, the software.

 

This is a good thread and so far no real bashing but great points made for both sides. I feel really similar to the OP.

I was REALLY debating the cost of the MBP and going to get one, but just couldnt justify the cost in the end.

I have pretty much no experience with OSX but I learn things VERY fast so I knew it wouldnt be an issue, and I planned on using boot camp to dual boot with windows anyways so if there was any windows only task I needed to do I can just do it with no problems. (Gaming was a big concern as is alot of my strange video codecs and things, pretty much making a OSX exclusive machine not an option)

It seemed the optimal solution to my problem, get to put my foot into the mac world door and see why and how OSX is so great while being able to function fully in windows if I found myself a fish out of water.

Then things like the Asus G1S or C90 pop up and stole me away tho.

The ram is cheaper for the PC side because its not registered, also I have the ablility to upgrade my machine myself. I ended up with the Asus C90S. I think I made the right choice because by no means could a macbook touch the value, but its a totally different kind of notebook.

I was upset mainly because the HDD of the mbp was limiting. I wanted to use a 250gb HDD I bought but still have to pay a mac store to install it for me instead of doing it myself as to not void my warrenty, and I have to pay for the HDD that comes with it.

I also really agree with MasterChef, after the education discount the lower end mbp is pretty darn resonable, but the crippling aspect is the lower end video card. I dont think I would be happy with it, and the higher model was way too much more in cost. So thats really what sealed my fate.

I hear reports here and there that there are issues with the mbp aswell, battery issues, and that it wont run correctly under windows (fans not working right and things like that)

I still would like to get to explore the mac world, really I do but they made it so hard to get me to join with how they have priced there hardware and the very limited configuration options (mbp)

So I hope maybe the PC world picks up on the better parts of mac (2 finger scrolling and things like that) because I know apple is never going to make it easy for me to make the leap to there side.

 

SauronMOS, that was a very convincing post.

I received a new MBP last night... but after doing a lot of thinking, I'm pretty sure I'll be sending it back.

 

dell gpu is not the same its gddr 2 mbp have gddr 3 so.

 

Many people take a look at a laptop, and don’t weigh function over form – instead they consider ONLY function. That’s all well and good, and there’s nothing wrong with that if it suits their needs. However, they also need to realize that regardless of whether or not THEY consider it as important, the price of form is also included in the purchase price.

For example, you could take the exact same arguments you made for the MBP and use them for the Dell Latitude vs Inspiron. I can’t count the number of posts saying “The Inspiron offers BETTER performance than the Latitude, for cheaper. The Latitude is overpriced! Anyone buying the Latitude is out of his mind!” while discounting the increased build quality and security features of the Latitude entirely because *they* don’t care about those features. That's simply wrong.

It's true Macs have had some flaws in each batch - but that is true of any laptop. Dell, has had more than its share of problems. I wouldn't say Apple is special in this case.

Half an inch is a 50% increase in thickness if you're looking at it relative to the sizes in question. Similarly, a whole pound of difference means a 20% increase in weight. A lot of the benefits of weight and size are also felt when you're transporting the machine to many places, not just when you're using it.

I can respect your opinion that these differences mean little to you. We each pay for what we feel has value, and if those features don't seem worth it to you, that's fine. However, that doesn't make it any less valuable to others, or the fact that they ARE features of the MBP, and part of what you pay for, regardless of your own opinion about the matter.

Not going to bother doing a spec for spec comparison yet again. Search the forums here, but they're definitely not that far apart.

Also, see above. Picking certain specs as a means of comparison while ignoring others simply distorts the picture. It's like looking at Clevo m570ru and a Dell m1330 and noticing that they both have 2GB of RAM and saying "look! they both have 2GB of RAM but one's more expensive than the other!". While obviously each person will weigh different features as more or less important than others, those features will, again, still be reflected in the price.

You will also note that the Inspiron only offers up to a T7500 (and yes, I DO need and use the extra 200MHz from the T7700 often), so if you're still using this for "just as powerful alternative", this would be false. Also, doesn't the Inspiron only offer GDDR2? there was some controversy about this earlier because they misadvertised it as gddr3. I didn't bother reading through it though, so correct me here if I"m wrong.

2LB being of importance is a matter of opinion and depends on each person's carrying needs. Regardless, this is still a difference that can be reflected in price.

Not true at all. Many cells by major brands are all custom-fitted to laptops almost perfectly. E.g. the 4X tom bihn brain cell will NOT fit conventional 15.4" laptops (they're too big to fit). The idea of a carrying cell is to fit it as snugly as possible - this means that there are different sizes for different laptops.

A matter of opinion. Even if I agree with you here, that doesn't mean that you aren't expected to pay for those looks as well. Why are sonystyle laptops so expensive for inferior performance specs, for example?

That's just a defect, which rarely appears, and there is every reason to expect it to be fixed by the next batch. You'll note that the Inspirons have screen problems as well with graininess and whatnot.

As for the screen. I personally see it as much brighter and more vivid in color than any other screen I've seen before on laptops. No way of comparing the battery life at the moment. I suppose you can choose to disbelieve both features if you wish.

Very often actually, but the lights don't really do anything for me as anyone with a laptop really should know where the keys are anyawy.

They don't take up much battery life though. Some EE grad student on this forum once did a calculation for how much power it ate - it turned out to be entirely unnoticeable.

You can run games on boot camp. It is annoying, but being able to legitimately and legally run both OSes (i.e. having more options), is a plus, not a minus. The inconvenience does detract from it though, but usually gaming sessions are extended and so a reboot isn't that bad.

Hrm, there aren't great dvd players for Windows either though. You're stuck with bloated useless software like cyberdvd and windvd. I end up just using VLC for everything just out of convenience.

Actually, I just got over 4 hours on battery last night...so...I don't see why it's not real world?

Well, that's a separate complaint from "sturdiness" per se.
However, I find the build quality lacking compared to my old thinkpad, but that's another issue.

... ... ...
should it come with a parallel port for printers as well?
Sorry, but there really should be a limit to legacy stuff you want to include on a laptop. If you really want to add an extra port or connection for something, I'd prefer it was another USB port at least.

There you go throwing the word "equivalent" again. Only certain specs are equivalent. The rest are not. Whether or not those differences are worth the amount you set (which is a bit inflated btw), is up to the individual, but they are there, and they do add value.

Keep in mind that you're not just paying for the hardware specs itself, but also the exclusivity of such specs - i.e. the only 15" with a LED screen, the only systems that can legally run OSX, the only 1" thin 15" laptop ... with the emphasis on only. That adds value as well.

Finally, the Inspiron is a "budget" laptop, with all the sacrifices related to such. If you are deliberately limiting your focus on the specs to compare and willing to distort such comparisons, you could make any of the arguments you made above in the comparison of Inspiron vs Latitudes, Thinkpads, V1S, G1S, LG, HP, etc. etc. etc. – any notebook on the market: because you are selectively deciding to bias certain specs and ignore other specs.

The major criticism of Apple can be that all these things that "add value" are forced upon buyers because of the lack of customization options - i.e. for most PCs, people can choose which "value" they want and thus pay only for those they feel are necessary. This is, however, a separate argument.

In short (short? this thing was way too long), most of the things you outright dismiss are actually features that do add value to the machine, and consequently add to the purchase price. Like many people, If you don't feel they're important, of course you're better off getting a different machine.

 

i gotta admit i agree mostly with the opinions of myself and taelrak, and disagree with the OP on most counts, although he does raise some valid points.

you have to understand that macs are not intended to cater to everyone. apple sells machines that look absolutely stunning, with great attention to detail in design. take the macbook pro. the machine is very minimalist and sleek. its also VERY light (just under 5.5 lbs) which does make a huge difference against a machine that weighs 6.5 lbs. the overall "thinness" of the machine also really takes away from some of the bulk and inconvenience of larger machines, and it adds to the practical portability. you have to expect to pay for that. whether you want it or not is something entirely else. but if you buy it, you have to pay for it. that is understood going in.

that is a term we like to call "apple tax"

however, apple tax is not very high on the macbook pro. most of what you are paying for is top shelf hardware. keep in mind that the gpu model (8600m gt) and the ram type (gddr3) have more of an effect than anything else in determining gaming performance. vram amount takes a back seat to the other factors. the crippled macbook pro gpu is still faster than the ddr2 version. you are also paying for a fast, top shelf processor. whether you need it or not is something you have to decide, but if you choose to buy it, you are going to need to pay for it. for some people, a t7700 is necessary because some people need all the cpu power they can get. even if you don't need it, its still in the machine, you have to pay for it.

the LED screen is drastically brighter and it also extends battery life beyond non-led lit screens.

you can easily get 4 hours of battery life in osx. with some effort, you can get 5.

when it comes down to it, comparably configured machines from other manufacturers end up being priced comparably to the macbook pro.

yes, you can buy a much cheaper computer that is reasonably close in performance. but you cannot buy a machine that matches the performance and is much cheaper. you would have to compare the macbook pro price to the asus g1s price (or another machine with a gddr3 gpu and a top shelf processor - t7500+). when you look at the difference of those prices, then you can say "oh - the internal equipment is the same. that must mean something else is driving the price difference." then you compare the machines, side by side. the asus g1s is bulky and doesn't have the same quality of design as the apple machine. how much is that worth to you? i don't know the actual price difference, but it should be close at this point.

but that is true of ALL computer hardware. keep that in mind. you are paying top dollar for top shelf. if you need it, then you can use it. otherwise you will feel like you have been apple-taxed.

in the most apple sided case, you can call the price of the expensive machine $2000 after discounts and a free ipod and printer. thats assuming you take everything they give you and you would have bought it anyway.

personally, i did need a printer, and i was gonna buy an ipod anyway. that puts the "real dollars" of the expensive machine at $2000. compare that to an asus g1s, which can be had for just under $1800. immediately- you can see the asus g1s has a t7500. done. the t7700 has almost a 200 premium over the t7500. or you can look at the build quality. it should be obvious. look at the two machines.

 

People who don't regret switching haven't dealt with their Mac's, inevitable, hardware failure yet.

I'm not a recent switcher. I've owned several Macs over the years, and I love OSX. But Apple cuts way too many corners on their hardware. I've washed my hands with the Macbook line. Hopefully, they'll figure out how to engineer a decent case by the time the next Macbooks are released.

My wife still loves here iBook, though. It's a shame they don't build them like that anymore.

 

oh wait this is a macbook thing.

yeah the macbooks definitely have a higher apple tax than some of the other systems.

they are for entry level computer users who like os x (or dislike windows) and aren't interested in gaming (or at least not 3d gaming). they are very much so a fashion statement. if you value os x a lot, then it might make sense to get a macbook. a ton of people are happy with firefox, facebook (yes, facebook is a separate entry), itunes, and ichat. nothing else is important to like 80% of computer buyers. oh yeah, and email. maybe they would get so far as to use iphoto to organize their pictures. possibly microsoft word for typing. for these people, the macbook is a stylish way to accomplish said tasks, its a little more expensive than the PC laptops, but its unique and you don't have to be (as) worried about breaking the installation, or viruses. you get a clean operating system. you get a little bit more piece of mind. and the BIG thing is - no spyware. unavoidable with even the best tools on the PC. the best you can do is destroy it retroactively or render your system basically unusable.

 

What about the MBP?

 

At the moment I sort of regret going with the MBP over the Macbook since I don't play games as much as I thought I would and the GPU just makes the damn thing run way too hot in windows (even with sufficient underclocking). But then I think about in the future how much LANage SC2 will bring and I feel ok again.

 

hah. starcraft 2 will run very happily on your macbook pro. it would almost certainly be a struggle (at best) on a macbook.

you probably aren't really* using your gpu just working in the operating system. even when the OS is doing opengl things like sweeping rendered windows around, its not intensive by any means. but there are a lot of hardware advantages of the macbook pro anyway. its nice.

 

Too many LCD issues.

I also have a problem with the aluminum casing. For a computer that sits on your desk, aluminum is fine. For something that I'm carrying around daily, aluminum is too soft of a metal. It bends and warps way too easily. MBPs also have Airport reception issues because of the aluminum enclosure.

 

The whole LCD thing has been blown way out of proportion IMO. It's a very well-advertised problem, but that doesn't make it a problem for the majority of MBP owners by any means. Many many many many people have MBPs without any LCD issues at all.

Also, since Apple is recognizing it as a problem, you can simply get replacements until you get one without the defect.

The aluminum casing is annoying though. It's pretty, but I do feel the need to baby it, and it's hot. I would've preferred CFRP.

 

I don't view this as a viable solution. They need to start shipping them, consistently, without the defect.

There are multiple issues with the MBP LCDs. They need to stop fixing these issues with band-aids.

 

Sure it is - it means that at some point, you will get the screen you are satisfied with eventually. After that, what Apple does with their production process and QC shouldn't matter one bit...at least not until you need to get another laptop or send yours in for a replacement/repair

Although it may seem like a "band-aid" solution, it is much better than having them simply deny the existence of the problem and offer the consumer no options whatsoever (*coughdellcough*)

 

yeah why isn't that a viable solution? it seems perfect. if quality control is low but customer care is high, i think it balances out.

there are no issues with my lcd, aside from being dangerously bright and gorgeous and attractive to theft. also it might attract bugs at night (not that any other laptop wouldnt) but this one ever moreso, because its SO bright. no dead pixels, no funky color yellowing things...

 

I can't believe you guys view going through multiple machines before you find a good one a viable solution.

They need to get these bad ones out of circulation. They're, effectively, having their customers take care of their QC.

 

Exactly...

 

Well, I'm not saying it's a "good' solution. But it's certainly viable, and it's better than being stuck with what you get and not being able to exchange it for a better one.

Of course, ideally, there would be no problems at all but...it might be a while before it gets to that point.

What I find "good" is that Apple is willing to recognize the defects (most of the time), whereas many other manufacturers will just say it's "within specs" and ignore you. That isn't always the case though, even with Apple, but at least it's a start.

 

I agree, that it'd be better if Apple didn't have quality issues in the first place, but since they can't fix that right now, at least they're willing to "compensate" for that with customer service and often, higher model replacements.

 

Put it this way:

Defects are a fact of life for any laptop maker. This is true of Asus, Sager, HP, Dell, Apple...etc...no one is immune from it.

If you are one of the unlucky few to get such a defective model, regardless of brand, wouldn't you rather that you'd be able to replace it until you are satisfied, than to be stuck with it?

 

you used the word "viable"

i thought you meant "viable". i think you meant "ideal" "optimal" or even "good"...

viable just means its livable. you can deal with it. its not perfect at all. if you get a bad machine, you send it back, you aren't screwed, you get on with your life. that is viable. that is what viable means...

so, yes, i think it very viable.