The perfect Apple-but-not-Apple notebook.

i think that sony does pretty good laptops. the vaio fw is a really good example. the only drawback about sony is the fact that after a year, they no longer have the laptop parts in stock and you have to buy a new laptop if you are out of the 1 year warranty when it breaks down.

 

Apple seems to think they are.

http://www.apple.com/macbookpro/design.html

Wikipedia agrees that this is "machining."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machining

If they aren't machined, how are they made?

 

Jokes aside I am one who come to the conclusion for Computers (not girls) looks don't matter most importantly it is the specs and prices.
I am one who can easily troubleshoot any software issue so viruses are no sweat.
Even for a lousy brand like Acer as long as the hardware components did not fail on me I make it work anyday.

 

Well, if the Envy is as nice as it seems it might be, then I'm game for one. Don't imagine that it will be creaky and miserable...

Same with me -- hence why my attraction to MBPs isn't so much an Apple/OSX/"just works" thing as it is everything else. I'd be just as happy running Win7 on any roughly equivalent machine.

 

I had to delete several flamebait/trolling comments in this thread. Read the forum rules please and don't post those kinds of things. Thanks.

 

Luke1708, you can get Sony parts for up to 5yrs. I own a Sony TX and can still buy parts for this laptop from Sony.
https://servicesales.sel.sony.com/ecom/accessories/web/index.jsp
Companies like Nextronics and Sparepartswarehouse also sell spare parts.
Those who don't live in North America will find it harder to get spare parts but you can always import and there is ebay.

 

For those who want a summary of the forum rules, you can use my posts as an example on how to be civil

I enjoy listening to a mechanical engineer because they offer expertise in areas I am unfamiliar with.

Is it a coincidence that threads like these always attract trolls?

I have no idea where you live, but here in the States, Sony parts are readily available for OLD OLD models.

 

Not at all -- any Apple vs. competitor thread attracts those who can't think beyond how great their product is. It's the same group of people always leaving pointless comments over at Engadget.

Not pointing anyone out, 'course. Just saying.

If the Envy 15 turns out to be as great as it might be, I'll gladly sell the MBP. I like Win7, have software needed for both (and can run OneNote natively there), ... hmm.

 

QFT

I'm curious what the Envy will be like. I remember when HP started their glossy piano finish trend on their laptops. At first when I saw it, I thought to myself. WTH is this????

While I'm not particular to this specific trend, it did shift manufacturers' thinking and design goals. It did make an industry wide impact which can be universally regarded as positive.

 

You are quite wrong in your assessment of the unibody as a "shell." The unibody is a SOLID piece of material and is not a thin shell comparable to an eggshell. This is a laughable analogy on so many levels. A solid structure is pretty much always going to be more structurally sound than beams and columns of the same size and material. Where did you get your engineering knowledge from? Your plane analogy also makes no sense. Of course a plane will fall apart when meeting resistance. A cheap laptop made from bits and pieces will shatter into smithereens when it falls, while a solid and malleable aluminum unibody laptop will bend dent instead.

Lithium-poly batteries that Apple uses are far more expensive to produce than the common li-poly type in all other PC laptops; THIS is why you won't see them in PCs anytime soon. Being replaceable or not has NOTHING to do with this issue.

No, you won't see any unibody laptops soon but not for the insinuations that you've brought up (that the structure is unsound), but because the process requires a lot of R&D, and the initial costs are high.

 

Maybe you have some expertise, and then again maybe not.

By definition, a unibody literally means ONE body. In engineering terms that can mean a couple of things. In this case, the outer shell and the frame work are ONE BODY. Like an egg shell. Or a brick house. Thin or not, a shell is where the outer skin and the load bearing mechanisms are one. Like a turtle shell. Or a Hamster Ball. Or a hamster cage, although that is a bad example.

When you say a solid structure, I think you mean a mass structure, which the unibody is NOT. Think dams, hills, pyramid, ant hill........

An Egg shell is an EXCELLENT example. They can distribute and stand against forces MANY MANY times their weight, like maybe a fat chicken sitting on top of it.

The plane example is to illustrate that most glaring disadvantage of shell design. Just like an egg shell, squeeze it in your hand and it stays together. Give it just a little acceleration against something and it cracks open.


<strike> The lithium poly batteries are not only expensive, but </strike> the supply is VERY VERY limited. Even if manufactures were willing to pay the extra price for them, there is not enough supply to meet the demand. The manufacturing process just isn't there yet to supply the much larger PC market.

Edit:

Ok, I was wrong here. I have been informed that the batteries aren't really more expensive to manufacture, but they do require proprietary components outside the battery itself. And they are more susceptible to catching on fire.

I must of skimmed past this one. Notice the laptops that actually CLAIM to be Mil Spec use a framework with a "cheap" plastic shell. Number of laptops that claim to be mil spec using aluminum bodies: zero.

The shell shattering is actually a GOOD thing. Better the forces of physics being transferred and absorbed by the shell pieces than being transferred directly to the framework, possibly bending it and the components within it.

And screw Aluminum. If you want a strong metal, go with magnesium. It is stronger and lighter.

 

back on topic, look at sony for a non apple machine that looks nice.

or maybe the dell adamo.

 

Erm it is Magnesium Alloy.
Pure Magnesium is weak and highly reactive

 

Magnesium is used as fire starters

 

As long as you don't mind bending over and letting your wallet take it where the sun don't shine, without lube!

 

Sony vaio laptops look amazing, I wouldnt say Macbook pro unibody is all that strong, my friend got a macbook during the summer and it already has straches on it..

 

Suffice it to say, you know nothing about physics, engineering, or Apple computers. Your continual use of the eggshell comparison is absurd. The connotations are obvious, as an eggshell is ridiculously thin.

If you think that pieces and bits glued and screwed together are more rigid overall than a solid piece of the same size, then you are speaking against physics, not me. Weak spots and the limitations of glue, screws, etc. at the joints are obvious problems.

If you want a far more reasonable comparison, the unibody is the same design as the monocoque frame of a car.

Your plane fixation is pretty funny. Whether the plane is a monocoque frame or not, of course it will not withstand impact against a heavy, still structure because the plane weighs a billion tons! DUH!

An F1 car's monocoque is the ONLY thing that survives massive impacts, but maybe you are onto something, and the frames should be made from struts, beams, and pillars instead (so that they will disintegrate upon heavy collisions).

As for using magnesium, you do realize that constructing a monocoque laptop frame from such a material would be far more expensive than aluminum, right? Costs don't matter? Heck, "screw" magnesium alloys and use carbon fibre (but not in bits and panels like Sony does); instead, mold the fibre into a thick "eggshell" like F1 cars.

I don't know your motivations, but it seems pretty clear to me that you are merely dismissing Apple's unibody process as weak just because you are a Dell fanboy. Even most hardened PC users are smart enough to recognize that the unibody is innovative, but there are all "kinds" out there. If Dell ever rips off Apple's design, I bet you will be overjoyed and singing a different tune.

 

Oh dear.

 

A MacBook Air survives a plane crash:

http://gizmodo.com/5215296/unibody-construction-helps-macbook-air-survive-plane-crash

Imagine that.

 

I'm sorry, but the fact that it turns on in that condition is NOT attributed to the unibody design.
A circuit board bent in the fashion that the motherboard in that laptop is should not be functional anymore. It's pure luck that it's still functioning, and even apple users would agree with that.
Anyone who denies this is a fanboy.

 

Agreed. It's an admittedly fun story though (save for the whole "plane crash" part).

Although tbh, I do think some notebooks stand a better chance of surviving blunt trauma than others, which presumably was the point of that link.

 

MBPs aren't that much cheaper... while a bit less than Adamo, they're still up with Sony and charging a hefty premium on looks.

 

Not to mention the Adamo includes an SSD stock.

 

The fact that you cited that article alone makes this post golden. I'm just going to repost it for entertainment value.

http://gizmodo.com/5215296/unibody-construction-helps-macbook-air-survive-plane-crash

Maybe some people do believe the marketing hype.

Maybe some people just prefer it, durability be D*MNED. (excuse the language, but but it is the best phrase for effect.)

http://gizmodo.com/5215296/unibody-construction-helps-macbook-air-survive-plane-crash

I can't imagine being in a plane crash. That's possible one of the most scary situations I can imagine.

HAHA.



Exi here has a pre-XPS Adamo, which while a PC, I have a hard time recommending overall. Plus the resale market for the Adamo isn't very big. At least that is the case in Texas.

That is why my first recommendation was to sell the MBP. I think the money will come in more handy, considering neither laptop is up to Exi's standards.

 

Yeah, I did indeed have a pre-XPS Adamo (which has since departed my company). It was a nice machine and all, but for me, having that kind of battery life on lesser hardware and a smaller screen compared to the MBP bugged me -- along with a couple other reasons. Still liked it and am curious to see the Adamo XPS.

 

I'm not sure I'd ever buy a laptop again that isnt' Apple.

 

I was wondering when that would be rolled out and who would do it first. You forgot the bulletproof Macbook Pro.

As Hep! said, it's a matter of luck. I can bend the Air permanently with my hands with relatively little effort (in fact, when I was travelling often with a soft bag I had to bend the Air back into shape a few times), and unlike say reinforced ABS, aluminium doesn't return any energy in an impact - and there's too little of it to act as a truly effective barrier to permanent damage on the unibodies... especially the Air.

Psychology among a certain type of person is a funny thing: Something like a Macbook Pro which suffers massive physical damage - attesting to a serious shunt - but still will switch on, will in fact garner more awe than e.g. a Sony Vaio which merely popped open along its seams in the same shunt along with minor physical damage and a say broken screen. Many a competing laptop won't exhibit impressive damage because they have better structural integrity - most of them will look pretty much the same, bar a few cracks etc, after an impact that will impressively damage an aluminium Macbook (and may well leave it still partially functional).

 

I guess we aren't all engineers.......

Something I posted in another thread was the phenomenon of Performance V Preference. There was a paper written about it, coincidently entitled "Performances Versus Preference." In human ergonomic studies, the design that people prefer usually wasn't the design that gave them the most optimal performance.

It just goes to show people's preferences depend on many factors, few if any have to do with the performance of the design. People in general are just bad at discriminating between features that they prefer and features that actually enhance performance.

That is why nobody uses the DVORAK keyboard.

Exi, I didn't realize you already sold the Adamo. I'm glad you came to a decision. Having three computers can be overwhelming IMO. Two laptops is plenty for me.

 

and one laptop and a dinosaur desktop is enough for me. btw, lenovo has some pretty nice laptops like the t series or the x series.

 

I know that you’ve been searching for a notebook for quite some time exi. I would advise you to demo any notebook you intend to buy next several times over at a store. I don’t know if you will find that notebook that you’ve been searching for. May be you will need to settle on something that meets most of your needs.

I’m glad that Apple opted for an optional matte display on the 15” and that has improved the looks in my opinion as well with the silver bezel. I also prefer matte displays and am not a fan of the glass coatings on laptops.
I owned a couple of pre-unibody MBP’s. I never had any problems with denting. I thought it was the best looking laptop at the time. However, i also knew full well that it did not rank as one of the most durable but it was the best looking then in my opinion.
If i wanted a 15” it would be the notebook that i go for now. I have thought about it but i cannot really see myself stepping up to a 15in notebook again.

The unibody construction i think it has improved things. You can tell this by reading user forums and seeing now that less people complain about denting than they used to. If their computer dents the hit is not as severe in the main as it used to be. I don’t think anybody would argue though that these notebooks were say as durable as business grade notebooks but most would argue that they may be better than some consumer level notebooks. Most people know what they buy when they are buying it. As was said a lot of people buy these notebooks for aesthetic reasons.

As for the discussions on the MBA. This has not been reported in this forum but the MBA suffered from hinge problems and cracking which Apple has now stepped up to fix. Other laptops have had other issues so Apple is not alone in having some problems.

In the upper end market i do think that Apple pricing is very competitive and continue to be so.

The HP envy does not come with a built in drive, that kind of rules it out for me anyway.

 

It is true that unibodies no longer dent at the corners at the drop of a hat: sharp corners strengthen the edges, so it won't dent but will chip or crush. One exception is the back left corner: It's one of the weakest parts of the structure and the chassis will buckle when hit there. It's also true that the unibodies are weaker than the machines they replace in terms of overall rigidity: for well-trafficked machines expect long-term drooping and deformation to a larger extent than the pre-unibodies.

 

With all these complaints about the current Apple offering, I can see a future migration toward non-unibody, non-aluminum (or metal altogether) in future MacBook line.

 

Is it the OS that you like or the hardware? If it's the OS you like then you don't really have any options except the MBP. Personally, I prefer Win7 (or even Vista) and hardware wise, the Dell Latitude/Precision, Lenovo X/T/W, or the HP Elitebook IMO matches or exceeds the MBP in most if not all aspects.

 

Kinda points to my reasoning for an MBP. Don't particularly care much about having Snow Leopard -- it's the hardware I enjoy, hence my interest in the HP Envy next month. Also enjoyed Vista (and especially 7) and would gladly switch back provided I can find a laptop I actually like.

Just so happens that for now, the MBP is the closest thing to what I want in terms of the actual laptop proper.

 

i'll be sure to introduce my laptop to my hammer and post the results. since i am a mindless apple-zombie, i expect the laptop will shatter the hammer. this is a reasonable test of the strength the laptop is purported to have.

 

This is partly a psychology and partly a wording issue. But your conclusion is a bit off from the rest of what you are saying.

I don't know what study you are referring to, but from what you said it was shown that people's preferences tend to not coincide 1:1 with enhanced performance. That does not necessarily mean that people are not good at distinguishing between what they prefer and performance, which is kind of an odd thing to say anyway. It assumes that they should prefer performance above all else and ignore other factors.

 

"Performance v Preference" by Robert W. Bailey. Proceedings of the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society 37th Annual Meeting. 1993, p 282-286

You won't find it on the Internet. You'll have to :GASP: go to the library to find a copy of it. Imagine that. Google isn't the authority on psychology!!! Edit: look under Human Ergonomics

I ran across it when doing some reading about the DVORAK keyboard layout. I think you misunderstood my words. It's not so much people should prefer performance and ignore other factors. It is that when they are asked which design they liked better, rarely if ever was the design chosen a design that offered an enhancement in performance. Even when metrics to measure which design enhances performances, people still had a hard time shedding their initial preferences.

It is the reason why developers spend so much money on direct observation studies and usability labs. We as human beings are just bad at discriminating performance from preference.

Not that it is a bad thing though. Like Rachel said earlier, some people just don't need a heavy durability laptop. Some people don't need accidental protection plans. Or insurance for that matter. Some people do just fine on their own. I myself use a tablet PC and never looked back. I didn't realize how much I was missing when I couldn't carry around my laptop. Now I can talk directly with users with my tablet PC in hand and take notes to reference later. A lot of times I'm just standing there filling out a support ticket while they explain their problem. I realized the office users have their own language when talking about their computer problems and when tech support people read their tickets, they often have little to no idea what the problem is. Sometimes I just takes walking a few yards to their desk, talking for 5 minutes and then just rewording their ticket. Or just deleting their ticket because they fixed the problem afterwards but never bothered to inform us.

Edit: I forgot to post my favorite link.

http://go.notebookreview.com/?id=52...ruction-helps-macbook-air-survive-plane-crash

 

Do you enjoy posting pure crap, or do you actually believe the nonsense that you write? What PROOF do you have that the new designs are actually less rigid than the old, and that the unibody is going to warp and bend easier than the paper-thin sheet metal of the old type? Just because you are on the internet and are an anonymous source, it doesn't excuse you for spreading nonsense. What you are claiming is against common sense. How can the unibody's much thicker panels be LESS rigid than the 1mm thin sheet metal body that it replaces? You have no evidence and exercise no common sense.

You can bend a MacBook Air? WOW! You can bend a laptop that is barely a few mm thick at certain points! I've had to bend the old MBP back into shape too. I guess the point is that people should take care of their notebooks and not toss them around. In my case, the MBPs that I've worked with were repairs for other careless users.

That the Air survived a plane crash is pretty funny. The story isn't meant to be taken seriously, but seriously, if that had been a Dell Inspiron, it would be in many, many, many pieces, and the logic board would have shattered like a cracker.

It's time to add some of the trolls to my ignore list because it is pretty clear that they are just trolling and spewing ridiculous assertions --such as the idea that unibody designs are inherently inferior (LOL). These types of posts are part and parcel of a forum with so many PC fanboys. Does anyone recall the thread in which trolls were claiming that Apple's sales were declining, that the company was losing its market share with the unibody, that the 13" MBP was $1499 (when it starts at $1199)?

I have no problems with the opinions of trolls --I merely object to lies and falsehood being promulgated as fact.

Complaints? I've yet to read a single unibody owner complain about the current design. The only exception is Vogel, who complains about ALL of his laptops (read his posts).

I actually liked my E6500. It was quiet and ran really cool. The screen was 1920x1200 and dual-CCFL. I also liked the magnesium finish and strong internal frame and could live with its massive thickness. If I had had the model with an nVidia GPU and lower resolution, LED display, I would have kept it.

Its build quality isn't anywhere near the MBP though, unless you think that thicker is better, and that a laptop made from dozens of bits and pieces is preferable. The Latitude also has an issue with paint chips on the FAKE speaker grills. Overall, if Dell wants the Latitude and Precision lines to be true MBP competitors, it needs to make the laptops thinner and use better quality construction: not just some bits of magnesium fused with plastics.

Then again, even the premium Sony TZ and Z lines have questionable build quality. The ones that I had creaked like the floorboards of an old house. I guess the point is that the material AND construction matter, not just one or the other. Make a unibody shell out of egg, and it will be weak. Make paneled laptops out of carbon fibre, and it will still have lots of weak spots because it is glued and screwed together at too many points.

 

Wow, I guess you missed the part where the number of unibody laptops claiming to be MilSpec: zero.

Number of framework laptops claiming to be MilSpec: Dell, Lenovo, HP, MotionComputing, Panasonic..........

Lies and Falsehood I tell you!! The Man is holding us down!!! Fight the power!!

Edit:

Um, Edit button ftl??

 

Maybe you got yourself a defective one? On average, I've seen a few dozen Latitudes/Precisions and maybe a dozen MBPs, and they have for the most part been better built than the MBPs.

 

Read the Latitude review here. The reviewer mentions that the palmrest's plastic/magnesium hybrid (or whatever it is) is thin and flexes more than it should. This is true also of the plastic bezel covering the LCD, etc. These issues make the Latitude an above average laptop, far superior to the Inspiron but short of the upper-end Sony, Asus, and MBPs.

http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=4645

Another problem with the Latitude is that it is far too thick for an "elite" notebook. I actually LIKE that Dell didn't use the "tapering" design on it like with the XPS models, but the result is that the Lat is just so thick and monstrous.

One great thing about it is that it uses a (mostly) unibody internal frame made from magnesium. The frame is fairly thin, but because it is magnesium and is mostly a single piece, it is incredibly strong and makes the overall feel of the laptop seem very sturdy.

 

But seriously, you don't actually know. There 'common sense' as held by people who don't actually have any relevant knowledge of that they're postulating on, and there's common sense. I'm not going to argue this out too much with someone as laughably conditioned as you are, but since these things interest me I'll touch on some of your points.

The previous designs have a (relatively weak in comparison to some other premium non-Apple notebooks) subframe. The unibodies have no subframe. There is definitely more material at the corners but as a whole, structural integrity is down as in many places, the machine has less support than the non-unibodies. And in case it didn't dawn on you, the purpose of machining is to remove material - the block does not magically stay the same block when it is machined.

Of course, I could have bent my TZ's, X300's, and indeed the current R600, etc - but the difference is, that for the most part given the same sort of everyday force on the machines, they stay straight. The Air is comparatively easy to permanently bend in everyday portage if you don't actually house it in a rigid structure - and this from a notebook that is heavier than some of it's counterparts. Aluminium has no advantages in this type of build, apart from (as I said before) looks and tactile feedback.

The careful use argument is the most revealing one I think about the psychology of ownership. The aluminium *is* more delicate, especially when it's used as a primary structural component and in a sparing way as on the uMBPs, and does condition users into using their machines more carefully than they would otherwise until this is the norm for them. I do not throw my machines around. I *use* them for actual work, and that is probably the difference between an extreme enthusiast like you and me. I expect them to survive everyday use that the flagship Sony's, Lenovo's, HP's and Dells manage for the most part just fine.

No laptop I have is totally perfect, it's for sure. But some have more compromises than others in terms of utility. I'm critical as a) I actually use these machines to work and b) I don't buy into a company. This is also why I view each machine on it's own merits - I don't say 'HP sucks' for example unless all of their machines have an issue and I have experienced it. e.g. I say 'XPS M1330 sucks' rather than 'Dell sucks'. There's a reason why I say what I say about Apples - I've owned every refresh of every Macbook Pro variant since release for example which have been used concurrently with other Windows machines, and (until recently when I stopped travelling with the machines as regularly as I used to) I had problems with every single one of the Apples as a result of inadequate product engineering.

 

Regardless of the flamefest going on...

Someone suggest a 15" or 17" laptop that is an inch thick and provides the same (or better) specifications, features and performance as a MBP.

I am waiting for one to come up as my penryn MBP is due to be upgraded

Z

 

We can suggest:
provides the same (or better) specifications
But not
features and performance as a MBP(Direct Comparison NOT POSSIBLE)
Because it won't be running OS X unless...

 

Regardless of OSX show me something that has:

- Minimalist chassis design
- 15" or 17" screen size
- 1" thick
- dual core cpu
- 8gb ram support
- 9600gt or better
- minimum 1400x900 res
- at least 5 hours battery life
- small power brick

Can't be that hard can it?

 

If you are so concern about design get a Mac because you are looking for a Mac look alike which is like trying to find a Zebra out of a herd of Mustangs.

- 15" or 17" screen size
- dual core cpu
- 8gb ram support
- 9600gt or better
- minimum 1400x900 res
- at least 5 hours battery life

This is much more reasonable.

 

Well, that was the purpose of this thread. I think the consensus is that the closest contender is going to be HP's Envy 15 set for release mid-late October. I know I'm anxious to see some first reviews.

 

It was meant as sarcasm. The common thread to this forum and just about any other forum is the amount of whining that people post. The manufacturer should have done this, the vendor should have done that, like the company owes them anything (face it folks, vendors may correct some things to please customers, but it's all just business).

I mean if you don't like a product, don't buy it (or sell then buy from a different vendor)- end of story. No need to bash one company over another (PC vs Mac or whatever).

But I already spoke too much. Everyone have their opinions.

Again, my sarcasm is directed to people's perceived sense of entitlement, which is what many of these postings degrade to.

 

Even better, I can find something with quad core support, a better screen, 8GB RAM, ROLLCAGE chassis, and accidental protection.

That way I can throw my laptop out the window.
Drive over it with a truck.
And get a replacement all within a business day.

And it will cost less than a MBP. So I have enough money left over to buy a steak. Or actually, four of them for my friends and I. Or a "companion." Which ever one fits your bill.


You list those features like they THE features to beat.

 

I thought we were in the Apple sub-forum talking about "The perfect Apple-but-not-Apple notebook."
So I am guessing they are the features to beat

HP Envy looks pretty damn good...