*Official* NBR Desktop Overclocker's Lounge [laptop owners welcome, too]

@electrosoft


If I sent you my 11900K would you provide a 2nd opinion on it? I would like to know the SP rating.

This 11900K will run 5.1Ghz all core at 1.375V in the bios auto LLC. And the load voltage is 1.399-1.403V per HWinfo using Cinebench R23 full load. The power consumption is 270-272 watts.

I have no idea what the IMC can do yet. Still waiting on my Z590 Dark to be delivered.

That’s a darn cool feature that Asus has though, getting a prediction of the Silicon rating and Overclock potential. I hope Evga would create something similar. I looked at the Asus board briefly.

 

What are you running your memory at? Two sticks? I can test mine at 5.1 at 1.375 with auto LLC to see what I get. I have an SP83.

 

My memory is Gear 1@ 3066Mhz CL11-11-11-28-248-1T- TFAW 16. Running tXP at 4, DDR4 voltage is default of 1.5V XMP.

My VSA voltage is [email protected] effective.


The cache/Ring clock is 46.

All core is 5.1Ghz 1.375V set in bios and during R23 it runs around 1.399V-1.411V power usage is 270-272 watts (0=AVX2/AVX512 offsets)

Performance is good overall at 5.1Ghz. My cooling allows for better performance, but this chip needs a delid for full 5.3Ghz stable all core.

I was hoping for (slightly) better silicon. Some people have received worse though.

I saw a guy with 11900K at 5.0Ghz 1.375V and auto LLC and it pushes 1.417-1.425V under R23. And that’s only 5Ghz all core. So it could be much worse!

Thanks @Rage Set

 

It came down to cost. I was already taking a huge risk considering AMD as an option and the modest difference in specs between the two simply wasn't worth the significant difference in cost. Or, so it appeared at the time. My biggest mistake was purchasing another product from ASUS. I knew better and did it anyway. I don't like the other options that were available either, so I made judgment call. Probably not the best one. If I knew then what I know now, I would have just found something different to do with my time and would have not spent any money.

But, we've got lemons, so let's make some lemonade. Tomorrow is a new day. A year from now the things that suck about today will either be forgotten or remembered with a view through rose-colored glasses as having been better than it really was.

 

Your 11900K must be better than mine. Using the same settings, R23 crashes hard on me.

If I don't put the cache at 46, but do 43 with the same memory settings/timings, it pulls 275W at 1.469V

 

Thank you for sharing! This is very useful information.

 

You can get a good gauge of your CPU without knowing the SP rating and even some lower SP chips will do better than higher SPs. Have you tried dialing in that 5.1 to see how low it will go and be able to run R23? >1.4v under load @ 5.1 isn't spectacular but we'll truly know when your new toy arrives.

I think once you get your new Z590 motherboard and run the memory properly your pull, heat, memory and cache settings will adjust accordingly including auto settings. We'll have a better idea then. Right now, with the Z490 Dark BIOS being so wonky and the memory running abnormally low it is really hard to gauge the chip's performance.

When is your new MB due to arrive? You might find it will do 5.3 all core or once you actually set the gear and imc properly it may perform hotter and hungrier.

The guy with the 11900k @ 5ghz 1.375v auto pulling 1.425v is about as poor as it gets and is in the land of 11700k's.

Cache is really fickle on 11900k's >45 but that is a lot of v for so little w on your SP83. I know @Talon was running an SP83 before the IMC went kaput and his SP83 ran lower and cooler on his AIO iirc. What does your V/F curve in BIOS show?

 

Technically, the best of the 6900xt models:

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-radeo...cf-16g/p/N82E16814930057?Item=N82E16814930057

Also available on eBay from Newegg but no one is buying.

Prices keep inching down.

If it hits $1300, I'm going to have to toss aside my disgust for Asrock and pick one up.

 

Hey, yeah the new motherboard will be here sometime today.

If I set 5.1Ghz all core in the bios it applies 1.388V automatically.

5.3Ghz does seems to be very temperature sensitive. If I was delidded, I would already be there. I can pass R15 at 5.3Ghz. But not R23.

Not sure if this is possible, but the voltage requirement is less than what the CPU originally called for at 4.8Ghz all core with auto voltage. (Not by much)

Anyways, I hope it’s better on the Z590 Dark motherboard.

This is what I run the cpu at daily in games. It is very stable like this. 5.1-5.4Ghz with auto voltage, and auto LLC.


All core load at 5.1Ghz stables between 1.394-1.399V. With single cores boosting to 5.4Ghz under normal usage it will hit a maximum of up to 1.550V though.


I feel like a delid would totally change this thing! May open up another bin or two.

 

I don't think it is going that low anytime soon but I used a business account promo on Newegg Business to get it for around 1650 plus free shipping.

 

Say Goodbye to Silicon lottery... STORE CLOSING

Edit.
Trick or Treat? CPU Cherry-Picker Silicon Lottery to Close October 31st tomshardware.com | Today

Reduced overclocking headroom and liquid solder are partial culprits.

I wonder if Caseking and/or overclockers.co.uk will continue or not.

 

They must know something about Alderlake that isn't public. Why close when a brand new Intel platform is coming. I know what they are saying about diminishing returns, but this rather weird. October 31, no less when the 12900k is rumored to launch first thing in November.

 

Each motherboard can be drastically different and as I found out in the past with my 8700k and 9900k moving from one brand (Taichi) to EVGA I suddenly had
cleaner power delivery and was able to extract not only lower Vcore requirements but an extra bin. The Taichi needed 1.35 @ 5ghz. The EVGA could go 5.1 @ 1.328v.

With the 11900k, the MSI Z590-A Pro while being a budget board had serious VRMs that could handle 370w no problem but the issue was on the low end. It couldn't
handle dialed in granular voltage and always had to run higher than the Gigabyte I'm using now. Exact same CPU and it would pull 203w and any fine adjustments down and it
would crash. The gigabyte pulled ~181w stock and on its initial 11th gen BIOS release it pulled 165w but clocks were inconsistent. The June BIOS release fixed the
inconsistencies.

MSI released a new BIOS last week. I ended up installing that motherboard in the wife's system and sold the old gigabyte + 9900ks so I'm going to end up updating
and when I have time swap one of these 11900k's in there that I have data on from before to see if they adjusted down their insane power defaults even more. Remember
the original MSI 11th gen bios was pulling 1.6+ on IO/IO2/SA at stock before the June update adjusted that down to 1.4.

A delid has time and time again shown not only meaningful temp drops but also evening out what proves to be on some chips a very wide range of temps core to core (10-12c+).

I'm expecting fantastic, rock solid power delivery and the ability to pin point, dial in and fine tune your 11900k with the EVGA Z590 Dark. It will be interesting to see what their
OC Scanner says too.

 

There is definitely a market for really high quality binned CPU’s I feel like silicon lottery has almost gone the more “Walmart style” with it, or “Gamer boy” maybe the 12900K is top tier silicon and Intel doesn’t let and stragglers slip by their fingers? And maybe this is why Silicon lottery is closing doors.


I would certainly pay a premium for a really good chip though. Silicon lottery advertises 1.462V at 5.0Ghz as bin option #2 for the 11900K. And 4.9Ghz as bin option #1. They are bins all right, but not very good ones.


They also test 5.1Ghz at 1.500V. After getting to know a 11900K hands on, I’m almost certain they would all do that.

I feel like the right person could take advantage of this!! Especially if they did it right and actually tested the IMC, and cpu. Then did a more extreme screening process.

Maybe like bronze, silver, gold, and platinum, maybe throw in unicorn as the final lineup. You could charge $3,000 dollars, and they could run through 100+ CPU’s to find you the best one. That’s top 1% of 100. I’d buy something like that. Maybe not $3,000 dollars. But something half as expensive Lol.

 

It will be nice to see it in action and get your take on it. In depth reviews are sparse for some reason outside of buildzoid proclaiming it the best designed of all the 6000 series cards and one video of a YTr connecting it
to his mini PC.

 

New toy just showed up. I just want to rip it open and play with it like a 5 year old.

 

I think it is a combination of a shifting market that continues to skew towards more casual users and the boosting algorithms making it hard to extract maximal value from overclocked chips. For those not running LN2 or big pelts, the headroom on AMD chips is poor. And while 11th gen was Intel's first toe dip in the boosting pool with ABT, Alderlake seems to really fine tune it on an AMD level which means we may not see much room on 12th gen and most users will simply get what most of their chips can provide right out of the box. You also have Intel and M$ working in tandem with their scheduler and a big/little approach which will potentially add in even more complexity headaches for overclocking.

Competition forced Intel to stop leaving massive headroom for new SKUs and AMD has forced them to extract as much performance from their silicon to compete.

For a specialized company like Silicon Lottery, this makes it hard to differentiate your cherry picked parts in a large enough scale to maintain profitability.

Also remember Silicon Lottery holds their chips to much higher standards in regards to what they can and can not run 24/7/365 versus most of our at best quasi-soft OCs which range from, "my games run so I'm good" to "Prime95 AVX enabled or it doesn't count."

 

Yes, there is a market for it. But it is very tiny when you stop and think about it, and it is hard to accommodate when there's not enough identifiable superior product available to begin to even satisfy that tiny market. Silicon Lottery is obviously drawing nothing but losing lottery tickets and have nothing to sell because it's all trash.

All just another indicator that the "demand" for good CPU products with better silicon is at an all-time low. The average PC user and gamer boy is an ignorant schmuck that wouldn't know what awesome is if it bit him in the butt. We are outnumbered by the lowest denominators and the manufacturers are just going to follow the money. Sure, they can charge more for a few small samples, but when you consider that 99% of what they sell is to people that don't know what they don't know, or don't care, it becomes very clear that the goal is to produce trash for dummies and tell them it is special. It's pretty obvious that we're more of an annoyance to them than anything else. We highlight their failures, defects and feeble half-a$$ed efforts while others don't even identify them.

If it sounds as if I am an elitist based on my comments, it is because I am. We are all elitists and should be proud of it. I certainly make no apologies for calling the balls and strikes. It's a tough job, but if we don't do it nobody will. It's our duty and a high calling to let them know they suck, and we noticed, and let the stupid sheeple that go along with the Kool-Aid drinking know that we look at them as being part of the problem and they also suck.

 

LoL... Very similar train of thought to what I just posted almost simultaneously. Like they say, great minds think alike.

 

I wish I had (50) 11900K’s and (50) 10900K’s to just test all day long. That would be a very fun filled day.

 

We have been heading towards this direction for sometime now. We all kinda saw it coming with the whole single core thing boosting higher and higher.

Intel finally got their boosting algorithm together on the 11th Gen. Overclocking one is just pointless unless you have a solid cpu. Or only run multithreaded heavy loads. And then a 11900K doesn’t even make sense in that case lol.


But yep. It is unfortunate.

 

I did that with about 20 samples of 10900K for X170 laptops, and I can tell you that it took a whole lot more than a day of testing and it was not very fun. Designing the process and doing the first two or three was kind of fun. After that, not so much. You spend a lot of time watching tests run, recording the results, marking the CPU, swapping parts out. Lather, rinse, repeat. I was happy when it was finished.

 

I'm not sure if you're trying to post images, but nothing is showing up.

 

There's a motherboard lottery too? Wow so many lotteries.

I'm of the former camp. I don't really care for benchmarks, so if I can overclock significantly higher for a gaming load than a benchmark load, I'll be happy. Gaming performance and performance for everyday workloads are what matter to me. I think this applies to the majority of people.

Add in the fact that every CPU sold under a particular SKU looks the same to the average consumer. They'd scratch their heads thinking why someone would want to pay more for a part than they have to. They probably aren't even aware there are variances in the silicon between CPUs from the same SKU. I didn't know this either before I joined this forum 4 and a half years ago.

Unfortunately the extra performance you get from a highly binned chip doesn't carry a linear price increase over its MSRP versus the performance improvement you get over an average bin of that same SKU. It's much more than a linear increase. I'd love to have that i9 10900K with mythical grade silicon that can do 5.7 GHz all core at 1.4 volts, but I wouldn't pay $3,000 for it. The chip I get is the chip I get. I just hope for the best.

 

Exactly why Jay'z skrapped the 11th gen. He wanted the 4 extra threads as he said in his latest video. Less doesn't always mean more. But coming 8 cores Alder lake ain't on the old 14++++++. And I don't count in the small phone cores Microsoft once again find it ways to push you on the next new and shiny


Btw. A new graphics card ready for the test bench. Gt705 (OEM version) A damn small and nice little card, LOOL



And @electrosoft Please don't be hanged up in my Crocks


Edit. https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-gt-705-oem.c2578

 

This is all I'm seeing from posts from you I assume have images? Maybe its on my end?

 

Well Jay did say it was only like a 5% IPC uplift when it is more than double that, but if your workloads benefit from and can take advantage of all 10 cores/20 threads, 10th gen may be the way to go. Every other scenario, 11th gen will come out on top.

I mean, I see them.......I definitely see them....

 

Personally I think Intel had all that headroom because of SKL and 14nm. Both legendary, scaled way too much past their actual intentions ? Hats off to the engineers who designed SKL and 14nm at this point it's 6 years old, both of them and still competitive. AMD comes up with MCM to combat Intel 10nm problem and then improving Zen uArch to the point they addressed a ton of issues like NUMA and etc to a single I/O die but damn they really pushed too much on the Ryzen 5000 client platform, clocked high leaving nothing but PBO and XFR to the point of leaving bugs like Memory related WHEA to USB. SKL 10900K despite being such an old design still had headroom to OC, not only that IMC is also improved on Intel every year thanks to SKL.

FF to 2021, Intel tried to do different by backporting a 10nm design which caused a misfire and IMC & Inter-core latency degradations right exactly where there's no more SKL from Intel as it's from Cypress Cove design, I bet there's some prototype Intel SKL chip which had 12C/24T somewhere, where they try to push ring bus to limits with 12C design but probably failed due to 14nm heat and power also not being able to clock it at 5GHz+. Esp if we see SKL die it's so small vs RKL.

Also now AMD Zen 4 rumors already showed how the IHS is designed on the AM5 LGA socket processor Ryzen 7000 Raphael. See below, has capacitors all over the place making it even harder to delid. And the rumors are high price hike so too much risk here.



Everyone already addressed other aspects such as ATB, XFR and others along with Gamer marketing etc having no more ceiling esp Intel. Even in GPUs Maxwell was last that had that fixed Clock speed on Nvidia hardware.

Truly end of an era.

 

Sometimes you got to smoke the laptop competition and occasionally leave the vrms smoking too

Here are some of my modified X170KM-G benches and total power draw for anyone interested:





I'm glad it's finally drawing above 500w, that's what a real DTR is, with overclocks I've seen the GPU hit 270w tdp now

 

Well, if someone is doing multithreaded only then a 11900K and a 10900K is not adequate. Neither of those would be my recommendation. I say 5900X or 5950X especially.

Now, the difference between the two (10900K VS. 11900K) is minuscule.


If you pop in a 10900K and hit go! That’s like 2,600 R15. If you pop in a 11900K and hit go that’s 2,450 in R15. Now, that 2,450 is on my gimped system with really slow memory speeds. We’re talking about a 6-7% loss in performance.


The 11900K can be overclocked up to a 2,700 R15 score easily.

It was difficult going to this cpu at first. Until actually tested it bone stock at 4.8Ghz all core.

The 2/4 cores and threads are not even noticed. The only thing I notice is the faster IPC.

I think the 11900K is a better CPU. And the only reason I say that. Is because the (Out of box performance on a 10900K) is pretty stale…The 11900K just zips right out of the gate. It’s like Ryzen is. Which we all know AMD did a great job on stock optimizations for Ryzen.

I still have a soft spot for a 10900K, and I really wanted a golden sample that would do 5.4-5.5 all core daily.

 

Yes it does seem to be the end of a truly amazing era. I know a lot of people complained about Intel staying on 14nm forever, but I saw it as a gift rather than a vice. When you make anything that uses power and voltage smaller it is going to get hotter and becomes more fragile. Neither of those things are something anyone should be happy about.

That CPU design seems like a deliberate attempt to go Nazi on people that want to delid. They should understand that what people do with the products they purchase is none of their damned business.

Nice job, brother. You have that bad boy running like a champ. It truly stands alone as the last remaining gladiator lost in the obscurity of a growing legion of emasculated turdbook rubbish made for confused panty-waisted sissy-boys and gamer-girlz.

I enjoy watching his channel and I agree with probably 95% of what he has to say about most things. He is also entertaining. But, there are points where I think he is off base. I can say that about almost every person that writes tech articles or has a YouTube channel. Sometimes they're just wrong. Sometimes I am wrong. But, he seems to be biased in favor of Ryzen now.

 

Yes I felt that way too when I first saw reviews for Ryzen, it quickly became the Ryzen show.

Though to be honest I just like having a good option #2 as normally that would drive the market for more innovation. Now it seems like a big mess for me since I've had to accept that I will likely never get the same value proposition as I had before on my 2700x @ 150 USD. The only thing interesting at the moment is the swan song of AM4 and the 3D cache, Im hoping it will be quite step up for games of course but also for Emulators like RPCS3.

But who knows, for now I just keep pinching pennies and hope the US survives this week and go from there lol

 

Hey guys!

How should I install my NVME M.2 raid in PM1 and PM2 M.2 slots??? Or should I use PM2 and PM3 M.2 slots?


On the Z490 Dark it only has PM1/PM2 so that’s how my raid is setup.


But on the Z590 it has PM1/PM2/PM3

 

Here is the new motherboard!!

Evga is using a very high quality M.2 cooling solution on this board. (Same thermalpads used for the Kingpin Hydrocopper Waterblock) these are 13W/M*k. Very good thermal-pads!! The M.2 is sandwiched between the motherboard and the new heatsink design. And thermal pads are on both sides of all three M.2 SSD’s.

 

I’m glad we have a group of friendly PC enthusiast, that we can share our cool new hardware and experiences with.

Even though I have been building computers, and overclocking for years and years. I wasn’t really an extreme enthusiast lol. That was a couple years ago since I joined this forum maybe 2-3+ years ago. (I’m not certain)

It was literally every single person in this forum that kinda slowly sent me in that direction of maximum performance potential.

Just want to say. I appreciate everyone in this thread very very much!!

 

We are glad that you are part of it.

 

I've realized I'm becoming the same way too. Before I asked for help with my Ranger, I had little desire to start OC'ing and pushing my computer to its limits, but within about a year, I'm finding myself doing CB runs on my G14 every night and constantly fiddling with the voltages of my 4710mq.

I've found quite an enjoyable "sub"-hobby, so thank you all for showing me how addicting and fun this stuff can be

 

This will let me keep using my desktop while this takes place. Who knows, it might even score a fews point on HWBOT in dual core class and single thread benches.

I have been talking to James at RockitCool. I want to find out about a Ryzen 9 bare die setup he knows something about that I cannot find any information on. If that is not available for purchase, I want to see how much it would cost to have an IHS made from pure nickel rather than copper. @Papusan or @jc_denton was it one of you that James did that for? I cannot recall. If so, do you remember the approximate cost?

 

For anyone that wants it, I put all of the necessary stuff in a 7-zip archive. Best way to do it is use a PCIe PS/2 add-in card, PS/2 keyboard and mouse, and a SATA optical drive using a Windows 7 SP1 CD to install to a SATA drive. I then clone or restore a Macrium Reflect image of the fully installed clean Windows 7 OS to NVMe.

I never had any success attempting to install from USB. With all of the required drivers and updates integrated in the boot.wim and install.wim, I kept finding that I was unable to get past the missing driver prompt in the last step of Windows 7 setup. Installing Windows 7 to X299, Z390 and Z490 was a breeze, but X570 not so much.

Download: AMD X570 Windows 7 Support Package.7z

 

New build is running good!!!

11900K CPU voltage in the bios with Z490 Dark was (1.022-1.028V)

11900K CPU voltage in the bios with Z590 Dark is (0.977-0.992V)


I have gained so many features so far!

I can raid (3x) M.2 NVME SSD drives together) I own several 512GB Intel 660P’s. So I can make a fast 1.5TB raid 0 OS/Storage drive.

I can overclock with Per-core-overclocking in the bios now.

I can now see the (2) best cores on the CPU.


I can finally run my memory fast!! Still unsure of the IMC capabilities. But so far 3600 works great! Will push it further tomorrow.


Also, check out the Evga Z590 Dark Auto OC!!!!! (Evga OC robot is going hardcore mode!!) 5.3Ghz all core on an auto overclock is pretty solid. Z490 Dark would always lockup if I ran auto OC.

(First of all, I never used auto OC on motherboards in the past) however, Evga is a beast at creating a really good auto OC tool. It actually pushes the CPU. Whatever that Evga OC robot says is more or less what you’ll be able to achieve. The Z490 Auto OC was fantastic on 10th Gen Intel. As is the version on Z590 with 11th Gen Intel.

 

It looks great, too.

I see you did the Mr. Fox trick on your mobo speaker to keep the beep from being so obnoxious, LOL. It took me a while of looking at that photo and wondering what you were showing us.

 

Yeah lol. I used the same black fabric tape you placed on the Z490. I peeled it off, and placed it on the Z590! Lol. Great idea BTW. I copied you. That beep is crazy loud without it.

 

Aye I was the same too, I remember I hijacked a thread to post my i7-4940MX scores with some insane overclocks lol, using a trashy Lenovo and an ice pack on the heatsink lol. Looking back on it I should’ve posted in the relevant place but I’m glad @Mr. Fox and @Papusan and some other forum members encouraged me to keep going. I wouldn’t say I’m an overclocker but more of a mad scientist always pushing the limits of hardware, sometimes a bit too excessively

I couldn’t be more happier being on NBR!

BTW @tps3443 I love the auto overclocking feature dark boards have, why can’t any other company do it like EVGA!

 

Brother Papusan went through Rockitcool, I reached out to them as well but they replied to me like a month or two later at witch point I had already reached out to BartX. The original cnc milled prototypes cost me 25€ a piece and I had the option of having them nickel plated.

 

Looking good so far!

I had to switch to LTE on my phone to see them.

You are using ibb.co as your hosting site and for some reason comcast has blocked that site so all my devices when connected to comcast show this:

 

You should use Cloudflares DNS servers and/or host your own. Comcast...don't get me started.

 

I use Cloudflares because Comcast took forever to resolve on numerous sites especially when camping best buy, but it doesn't prevent Comcast from blocking sites they deem malicious still for whatever reasons floats their boat.

I used to use my own terminal adapter before Comcast went full gigabit and offered me a free combo router. It's a PITA. I may switch back to my own.

 

I feel disappointed with the PC community and how the 11900K was judged and Z590 as a whole. I’m not following the Google Review and opinions on these CPU’s at all! Any review of the 11900K is a massive misrepresentation of an awesome CPU. To be totally honest, 10th Gen was disappointing. It was bumped to 10 Cores cores because the IPC sucked… The platform requires massive tuning to obtain good performance.

If someone looked at me and said, “I can essentially provide better multithreaded performance than a AMD 1950X (16/32) Threadripper” “And 20% faster single threaded than prior Intel 10th Gen” all right out of the box!!! No more of that weak stock Intel performance. This cpu is a “Install it and game type of chip!” Now I

If I were a regular consumer, I would say, (TAKE MY MONEY!!!!!!!)

First things first, the 8 cores matches 10 cores and some, from last generation. And the second thing, my latency is 38NS at only 3733Mhz. My bandwidth is over 61GBPS.

This chip is a little killer guys lol!!


I do not have the time to properly tweak the system right now due to work. However, I did set 3733Mhz and it hit 38ns first run during a 15 minute work break. I haven’t even touched the CPU cache frequency yet.

This thing is a monster at 3733Mhz Gear 1

61GB Memory Bandwidth
38NS Memory Latency.

Very minimal tweaking here to obtain this. 3733Mhz CL13 with basic timings.

I would say it’s certainly an i9 all day long, I (was) anticipating losing a few things, but that just hasn’t happen at all.. This cpu is a performer.

 

Unfortunately, this is often the case. While unfortunate, I think to some extent this should be viewed as expected an unavoidable. Here's why:

• Many of the "professional" reviewers are not real enthusiasts. They get excited, or pretend to be excited, about some of the most pathetic garbage we could imagine. They have minimal overclocking and tuning skills, and if you are objectively looking at stock performance the OOBE experience with 11900K leaves something to be desired. You are getting great results by applying what you have learned and it seems that you have found 11900K to have decent overclocking headroom and it responds nicely in the hands of someone that knows what they are doing. That is awesome and it is what we have come to expect from an Intel CPU mounted in an enthusiast motherboard. The motherboard you are using to get those results is an expensive part designed to do what you are doing with it. That might not be exemplary of typical experiences involving an inexpensive motherboard that is designed to tickle the fancy of consumers with their bar set much lower and a wallet-friendly budget.
• Contrast the above with the stock OOBE with Ryzen CPUs and the exact opposite it true. Their stock performance is stellar and they suck, or at least show far less improvement, in the hands of a knowledgeable enthusiast that loves overclocking. Coming from an existence dominated by Intel, I find it difficult to not be disappointed with Ryzen having been spoiled by a great experience with Intel where my efforts yielded amazing results. If I were a noob that didn't have the same skills I would be in love with Ryzen.
• Some of the "professional" reviewers are shameless shills and fanboys that will either say whatever they think will produce the best results with their sponsors, or they are fanboys that turn a blind eye to the faults of the products they review because they are not going to say anything but nice things about products and brands that they adore. In some cases their fanboyism goes to the extreme and can only be regarded as irrational bias against all competing products. They ignore, trivialize or make excuses for the shortcomings and defects of the products they prefer, while identifying and harping on the shortcomings of competing products. They are unable or unwilling to be objective and honest.