*Official* NBR Desktop Overclocker's Lounge [laptop owners welcome, too]

I'm well aware of quality. Having owned both brands I know which one is better quality, trust me. There also exists something called an off switch to turn of all the lights. Problem solved.

 

Well to be fair most are team player here:

https://hwbot.org/team/premamod/

User are welcome to join in the fun...

I've known John for a while and he doesn't just go about and demolishes a team mates score without us having an internal go at pushing the envelope.

What he tends to do, especially in his role as team captain, is slaughter solo players or other teams scores within the blink of an eye if someone pushes him as far as to press the power button on his system...

 

https://hwbot.org/team/premamod/#Members

 

Hey Prema, yea I remember getting the invite a while back. In regard to John, yes he is a good guy. I know things can get translated weird through text, but non of this is serious.

What is being discussed is specifically about the topic at hand. The reply and context is specifically in response to the comments that have been made.

So going back to the laptops being discussed, I wouldn't quite go as far to say that the Clevo p870tm is slaughtering the A51M. Far far from it.

At any rate, hope all has been well.

 

All good mate, all good!

Maybe we just haven't seen the need to show our hands, yet... to first give ODMs a chance to fix their own firmware:

https://twitter.com/PremaMod/status/1097220895834161152?s=19

Not many reacted in public apart from AW, but there is a lot of talk going on behind the scenes.
Worst case we tried and failed...but at the end of the day we are all sitting in the same boat here.

Edit No. 10 (sorry my mobile connection breaks all the time):

BTW, what's up with hwbot still not acknowledging the existence of Notebook RTX?

 

Ha, that's a good one, that's the sort of thing I would do - talking the wet clothes drying!

 

I hear what your saying and am not really going to go back and hash out what has already been answered many times before...
I will answer the down play of anyone can upload benchmarks. Not everyone can rank in the top 10 or top 20 for the United States. So it's a bit more than just submitting some casual benchmarks. And the dedication i put into it allowed me to go up against the best in the US and rank. That's what it's about to me. In these forums it's just for fun and games and to see what parts can do what in the right hands. That's it that's all. Not everyone in these forums are all that interested in that which I can totally honor and respect. And they are content in doing with the parts they have. Same reason I don't bother with the AMD vs Nvidia. Or AMD vs Intel. Or Clevo vs Dell. Me personally, I don't care. Only which one will net the most points in the end. Or what I can afford to spend on moving up the ladder.

Edit: the blue was because i did not want to use black and bold.
And of course there are no hard feelings.

 

No, that is not memory voltage. It is core voltage and it is an offset. So, the stock max is 1.093V on 2080 Ti. The slider only goes to 100mV on all other GPUs and it does work for most of them. That would be a little less than 2.000V if the slider actually works correctly. So, way lots better if it works, but nothing astronomical if it works like most GPUs (which means not at all in most cases). Also, to realize the full benefit of the K|INGP|IN cards, you have to reach out to Vince or someone at EVGA (not sure which) to get the "real" extreme overclocking firmware. It doesn't ship with the extreme vBIOS. Vince has mentioned this on JayzTwoCents and GamersNexus video. If it works like prior generation GPUs, the K|INGP|N firmware probably will not work for cross-flashing.

 

That may actually be the memory voltage...

 

It's the core voltage, but I forgot (since I use MSI Afterburner because it works better) that it is not an offset like Afterburner. It is the actual core voltage. It matches the CPU-Z and MSI Afterburner core voltage. So, in that screen shot the GPU must be running idle with the low voltage showing. If Precision X1 would allow us to lock the voltage with Ctrl+L like Afterburner, I'd use it and ditch Afterburner, but it doesn't let us do that (which makes it worthless to me).

The memory voltage shows on the far right below the slider for the memory clocks. I am looking at the voltage value in the middle (for core). It does not look like there is an adjustment for memory voltage, just a reading viewable in Precision X1. Not sure if it is controllable by the user or simply scales up by itself as the temps go down or what. Hopefully, there is a way to manipulate both core and memory voltage. The lack of comprehensive core voltage controls on 10 and 20 series NVIDIA GPUs is ludicrous. We should be able to have firmware control over the voltage and power limits on these GPUs the same as we can on K and X series CPUs.

Looking at the Kingpin user manual on the EVGA web page, they don't mention anything at all about core voltage. They only mention memory voltage goes up to 1.55V with LN2. I'd be totally pissed if I spent $1,900 on a Kingpin GPU and found it had a sucky 1.093V limit like the garden variety. What they have published is no better than I am already seeing, (2.1GHz on water... meh) so hopefully they are holding back for some weird reason.

 

This may only make sense if you have a K|ngp|n card.

You can control the core voltage, the memory voltage and the pexvdd voltage using classified app and evbot. The app can also control the nvdd vdroop, ocp,uvp and ovp. Also though those last 4 seem suspect to me. This can not be done with non kingpin cards.

 

That's good to know. I really want one because it sucks not being able to score any higher no matter what I do due to the inability to have proper control over my GPU. At least my modded 1080 Ti with Strix XOC vBIOS and hard mods was awesome with the extra effort. There is nothing awesome about my modded 2080 Ti. It's just barely better than a stock vanilla GPU. I'm really fed up with mediocre gamer-boy wuss garbage. It totally ruins everything... pure trash. Give 'em some fancy RGB junk and that's all they care about, LOL.

I wonder why they do not mention anything about this in the user manual? Seems like they would be proud of having the only Pascal and Turing GPUs that are not a castrated piece of garbage.

It's almost getting to the point now that I don't even want to do this any more because you pay a butt-load on money and end up with worthless castrated garbage that doesn't really run any better than the gamer trash and nobody even has an opportunity to compete unless they are lucky enough to be part of a tiny elite inner circle that gets special access to unique hardware and firmware that nobody else is allowed to purchase, and isn't for sale to anyone. If you're not one of them, you're wasting your time and money, and living in a dream world, trying to push the overclock using a castrated gamer-boy GPU that will never be worth a damn.

 

The KPE 1080 ti even has voltage control switches on the pcb


But this card is based off of temps and really needs to be in the -30 and below under load temps to start climbing the performance ladder....


Edit:

How many watts are you able to pull from your card?

 

It's hard to tell with the shunt mod since the power is not read correctly any more. Same with the 1080 Ti after shunt mod. If I go by before and after readings on the Kill-A-Watt meter, it is somewhere around 400W (about 100W more than without the shunt mod). The power readings reported by the GPU are not even close to accurate (like 100W or less) due to the shunt mod. I'm sure it would be way higher if I could go up to 1.200V like I could with the 1080 Ti. My max OC with 1.093V on the 2080 Ti is within like 20-30MHz of what the max OC was using 1.200V on the 1080 Ti. But, the limiting factor I have is not the power limit. It's the voltage not being able to go above 1.093V max. I'm pretty sure it's not reaching any power limit, but I cannot overclock the core any further without adding more voltage, which is not possible.

If the K|INGP|N 2080 Ti has all of those finite voltage adjustments like the 1080 Ti then I will try to find a way to get one. And, from that point forward I will never buy any except for K|INGP|N cards. It's really retarded to waste any money on a GPU that doesn't have that kind of control. This worthless gamer-grade feces is for the birds and I'm tired of spending my hard-earned money on broken trash made for children. It's just unfortunate to have to pay so many hundred of dollars extra for such very basic functionality like core voltage adjustment, and even when you resign yourself to getting raped on the price, you have to try like a madman to even find one for sale due to the severely limited availability. I am an EVGA Elite member and have the affiliate code, but there probably won't be enough of them to go around to all willing to pay for one. And, we are the only people that will have any chance at all to buy one. They're not making them available to the general public, and that kind of sucks.

 

Was looking for from the wall since you would need to measure the voltage points on the card to get an accurate reading. Another thing the K|ngp|n cards have....But, these cards work fine with normal means, but really need to be put under LN2/SS/Cass/Dice to shine. Even if they don't surpass all cards, what makes them unique is you don't have to really do anything to them. Throw on a pot. Hit the max vbios switch and bench, while every other card you have to bust out with a soldering iron and add on components to get cracking on record breaking. that is really the main benefit of owning these over the top priced cards.

The 1080 TI's have a switch that adds .50 to it's already max voltage of 1.093 and the app somehow adds more voltage, but if you are not on LN2, it will just give worse scores. You can push the voltage well over 1.2V, but it wont read that in any program, but using the measurement wires and a real voltage meter will tell you the truth. All without shunt modding. These are the things that make the card appealing to me. Because it sure as hell ain't that price tag! LOL

 

LOL, yeah the price tag is enough to choke an elephant. And, those features make it a must-have at this point. Buying one and paying out the nose for it is the only way to get the overclocking results now that everything is so screwed up. I have an issue with that level of nonsense, but kudos to EVGA for being able and willing to go against the stupidity that has become the norm.

You know, I kind of like doing the hard mods to the cards. That adds to the fun and I'd rather do the mods than buy a special card off the shelf. That is someone else's work, not mine. It is rewarding on a different level when you do the mods and have something unique, and it saves a few bucks as well. Unfortunately, it seems like that is not going to be an option any more. The NVIDIOTS have screwed us all really hard with the RTX cards since they are so mod-resistant. Had that already been discovered, I never would have purchased one. The inability to increase core voltage on the 2080 Ti was discovered by Buildzoid a couple of months after I had already wasted my money on one. I don't usually say "never" but am I more or less hell bent on not ever making that mistake again. Pretty damned disheartening to discovered you flushed $1300 down the toilet on a $hitty gamer-boy GPU that won't realize any extreme overclocking benefit from hard mods. It's better than stock, but that's just not good enough... and, it's not saying very much since stock sucks.

 

Not sure I understand that? You can't hit 2.7ghz on 1.093V
And you need to do far more mods than a shunt mod if you want to get past 1.093V LOL (And that's with love!) You need to frankenstein the card in some cases. But in all cases, the card needs to be below -30C...More like -100C to -190C

 

All good indeed. I liked your guys comment on twitter that was funny to see. It's the pressure like this that keeps things rolling...it may be slow, but they are reacting which is a good sign... another good thing is that most if not all that we all want to see is fixable / software. What really needs to happen is for them to hire you as a contractor to unleash the full potential.

I was wondering about hwbot an the lack of notebook rtx class too... hmm... maybe they'll add it soon?

All good brother and I apologize if anything came off wrong. This is all for fun indeed. I do highly respect the aspects of benching and the accomplishments that come with it. I think what I was trying to convey came across the wrong way about how anyone could bench. -- What I was trying to say is that my respect for one who is trying hard let's say in the 1050 class is the same respect I'd give to someone in the 2080Ti class. It's the effort and dedication that is admirable, then it's the accomplishment of reaching top tier scores that follow.

I totally agree. Granted that some (very few) consumer cards get better binned chips, but for the most part once you hit that wall it's pretty much a halt unless you move to DICE or LN2, but even then there's no guarantee. The score boards would be less of a problem if they were classified accordingly in respect to the firmware, type of card (consumer, super secret limited batch cards, engineering Frankenstein cards etc...) -- The issue is just that like you've mentioned in that it is a very small circle of folks that have access to such firmware and hand selected custom cards.

The issue that I have is that these privileged scores are all grouped in the same category as consumer cards. How is that fair? It's just as worse as 3DMark and how they still can't seem to differentiate those who use eGPU's from the true single native GPU scores. Super annoying I know... and it does take some of the fun factor away from it...

The only reason I'm getting the KP card is because I've been waiting for this for a long long time. Having driven over a half dozen 2080Ti's (FTW3) cards, I just have that urge to just experience getting past the wall presented by the regular 2080Ti cards.. The nice thing is that the resale value will hold strong so there wouldn't really be a loss if I wanted to sell the card.

At the end of the day, although 2x regular 2080Ti's would yield more points, owning one KP card is still cheaper than owning 2x 2080Ti's for what it's worth eh? Haha ..

Are you planning on getting one? I can't believe the page timed out when I had pressed submit ...

 

It's a lot easier to get the "proper" firmware from EVGA/Vince than other brands. They still can't advertise the advantage as Nvidia doesn't want that information out there.

 

@Mr. Fox If we should both get cards, I will be at your house ready to bench the whole weekend!

@Rage Set That is so true. When I was on Team Pure I had direct access to Vince and Tin and that made things 100 times easier. Although the vbios was a whole nother matter.

@iunlock That I can totally understand. I feel the same way. That's why I do not try to rain on their parade nor their accomplishments. Because at some point, I will get around to benching those cards for points as well. And I will be looking to beat them in that class for more points, but not parading it in their face. What usually happens at that point is I start getting pm's on how they can get better scores.

And yes, it sucks that the elites hold most if not all of the top spots, but then that holds true in every single aspect in life....
And it's like 9 of those damn elites pushing me down to 27th place.

 

You're saying exactly what I am saying. The 1.093V limit blows. My max overclock with 1.093V is 2235MHz on core. As long as it is around a max of 30-32°C. At 35°C it crashes with 1.093V unless I lower it to 2220MHz on core. The limit needs to be 1.200V like the 1080 Ti was with the Strix XOC vBIOS for it to be worth a damn. I wouldn't even pretend to try to hit 2.7GHz on chilled water, but with 1.200V I could most likely run 2.3GHz unless the firmware is so terribly screwed up that it wouldn't allow it. The way things are now, I'm basically done benching until something changes or I switch to different parts because there is nothing I can do to push this GPU harder for higher scores. It won't go any higher on core clocks with 1.093V on chilled water.

 

That would be really awesome. I'd love that.

I am going to try to get one. Price alone is going to be hard enough for me to swing, but availability might be even more of a challenge than the price for both of us (along with anyone else that wants one). It was only just recently that the FTW3 became available in enough volume to even try to get your hands on one and I suspect the KP cards are going to be even harder to snag with availability being limited to only those of us with the Elite membership + EVGA Affiliate code. Every time I got a notification of availability from EVGA the FTW3 GPU (1 or 2, or 3... however few they had available) was gone within like 3 to 5 minutes of the email arriving. Before I finally gave up and bought this 2080 Ti, on two different occasions I had a FTW3 GPU in my EVGA shopping cart in less than a minute of them sending the email to me and before I could click the link to pay with PayPal it changed from being available to no longer available. A third time I completed the check-out and within a minute I got an email that said the GPU I purchased was no longer available and my account was not charged. EVGA resellers like B&H Photo had an even harder time getting FTW3 cards, and it sounds like maybe none of EVGA's vendors are going to see availability of the KP cards. That kind of silly nonsense makes me just want to throw my hands up and say screw the whole shebang.

Seems like they would want to manufacture as many as they could sell. If they are worried about making more than they can sell, then they could solve that by accepting pre-orders. But, they don't do that. It's handled like a lottery and only a few are lucky enough to snag one. And, the fact that the RTX cards do not respond properly to mods makes that situation even worse. Unless you get lucky in the limited participation lottery, you're just screwed... that simple. I really hate that. It shouldn't be that hard to buy the GPU you want to buy, or mod one to make it run like one you would want to buy and can't.

If they keep doing this I will probably either stop benching or just buy low end GPUs and rack up hardware points and stop pursuing points based on score ranking. It's not any fun to me when I can't buy the right parts and modding regular parts doesn't produce good results. And, there is no joy in benching a belly-button GPU that runs like crap hardware that the gamer-kids are using to play PUBG, DOTA, Final Fantasy and WoW... meh, no thanks. If I wanted average parts to play games with, I'd save my money and buy a mid-range piece of crap GPU from AMD and call it a day.

 

If that actually happens id love to see two of those monster kingpin cards SLIed up with full waterblocks on them, omg

 

I said that because people think they should be able to get what people on LN2 get and that is just not realistic thinking. They already tried the add more voltage on water and it produce worse results because the cards need to be far in to the - range to show improvement. Remember a while back when I said I have been getting lazy? Because I shouldn't even be doing anything on air or chilled water and all benchmarks should be done on nothing lower than Single Stage or higher, but this stuff gets rather expensive and one needs to take a break at times on the wallet.

We have like 10+ of those cards right now at my local Microcenter right now.

You would think so. Get in while the getting is good, but apparently something is wrong. And of course no one wants to give the real answer as to shareholders this and that and blah blah blah....

I been said to do that. it's cool to do the new stuff, but if you don't stay on top of that, then you lose points fast. Most of those guys on top have many points using lessor hardware. The categories with the most submissions is where it's at. You stack up there, then it's allot harder to get knocked down the list.

 

Didn't Buildzoid or someone do a hard mod on a Pascal card that enabled physical dialing in of the core voltage by just turning a knob/dial - so bypassing any kind of firmware or software voltage control? Wouldn't that be possible with Turing?

 

That would be correct. They usually use controller pots to control the core, memory and pll voltage while monitoring temps and voltage with a VMM/DMM. Along with removing the power limits and insulating the card. These mods suck on anything not using extreme cold.

 

Ah, what happens if you use those mods when not using extreme cold? If you're able to set the core voltage manually & accurately, then why is extreme cold important, couldn't you just set a realistic voltage that your cooling methods can deal with (like say 1.1 - 1.2V for the core for Mr Fox's behemoth water cooling)?

 

To be honest, you would think so, but from prior testing....Not really.
The best way to try to explain it is this...
The cpu and gpu core have a built in unseen temp setting in what can best be explained as stages.
Example:
Stages are as follows
30C
0
-30
-80
-120
And at each stage you are allowed to use more voltage or in some cases less or the same voltage.
So say you wanted to hit 2300 on core, and the internal temp is set to -47C to -63C. Then you would need to between this range or else the test will crash or the gpu will crash at idle or any other host of anomalies because the core is considered to warm. Once your in the sweet spot for that 2300 range then you can generally bench almost all benchmarks. And as you go up that threshold changes again. Along with voltage needed to run a certain bench. This is why it does not scale well on air or even water. Chilled water gets you better results as does water running at -30C from a home made water chiller. Cards scale with temps, but then you hit that brick wall and no amount of voltage is going to help. The cores basically says. No. You need to be here and we will allow you to use that voltage and go further.
That is an example not a complete science.

Another example:
Just like some users will have a lower voltage with a higher over clock and their score is much higher, but their temps are in the - range or around 0C under load. then the second you hit say 3C under load it crashes.

 

I see, that's an argument revolving around 'the fact' that Turing cards don't respond well to increased voltage beyond stock levels unless they are extremely cold. So it's not specifically related to the fact that the voltage is being manually controlled through the controller pots, instead it's just that Turing cards simply don't respond well to increased voltage unless very cold. So even a card that had software increasable voltage up to 1.2V would show the same limitations, so nothing to do with the controller pots. @Mr. Fox was keen to get increased voltage limit for his 2080ti, so you don't think that manual controller pot mod would help any because he can't run his cards cool enough with his current setup, he'd need colder temps? Same would go for a King Pin card that could hit software controllable 1.2V then.

 

The voltage mod that worked for Pascal does not work for Turing. Bullzoid burned a lot of calories on trying to restore voltage control and it never worked correctly. The NVIDIOTS went way overboard with foolish nonsense to ruin things for us with Turing GPUs. The first six minutes of this video will sum things up pretty well... long story short, the retards that engineered Turing effed things up real bad. It passes the litmus test for gamers because stock performance is excellent. For overclockers, it fails the litmus test because it's trash for gamer kids, not a great product for overclocking enthusiasts.

No so much other than they botched things up with both hardware and firmware. They took their engineering blunders from Pascal and put them on steroids to magnify them. If the firmware wasn't such utter rubbish these GPUs wouldn't require extreme cooling as a partial workaround. Even with extreme cooling they're not as good as they would be had the Green Goblin not screwed them up so bad. I think Bullzoid characterizing it as a 'fricking pile of garbage' is very accurate. LN2 should be an extreme thermal solution used by a very tiny minority of overclocking enthusiasts to achieve freakishly extreme results; not a partial workaround to trick the GPU into behaving the way it should behave on water if it were not screwed up. We cannot really characterize this as anything other than a totally botched up product if overclocking is your interest. There is no excuse for having to run sub-zero cooling for such modest overclocking gains. If you want to get really pissed off, watch the whole video.

The only thing the NVIDIA brand has going for it now is the fact that their GPUs don't suck as bad at overclocking as AMD's GPUs suck at overclocking.

 

1080 TI Kingpins go up to something like 1.4+volts using just software, but it doesn't help any when the card is not cold enough. Here is what seemed to be the ideal spot on chilled water. Any higher and it would just crash.
1.41V memory and 1.17V core.
Software would only show core at 1.093V max or most of the time 1.063V

Edit:
Not sure what was going on with Buildzoid, but others are able to run higher voltage just fine.
https://wccftech.com/nvidia-geforce-rtx-2080-ti-galax-hof-oc-2-9-ghz-3dmark-world-records/

 

The new Radeon doesnt suck at overclocking, it just needed new drivers. I havent tried the updated firmware yet either, as there is a new one out. They are getting better, and better.

 

Well, the clock speeds look pretty nice but the scores don't seem to follow suit. That would be quite the downgrade from 2080 Ti. Definitely an improvement for AMD though. If they continue on their current trajectory, they might offer a good option one of these days. They're not where they need to be to get my money yet, but they're closer than than they have been in nearly a decade. They are worthy of having us all paying attention to them now, and that hasn't been true since the first generation GCN cards were annihilated by the Green Goblin.

https://www.3dmark.com/compare/fs/18399313/fs/18086743/fs/18318952

 

I agree, but to be clear, @Rage Set nearly matched the Radeon VII score you linked, https://hwbot.org/submission/4086333_rageset_3dmark___fire_strike_radeon_vii_27159_marks and he was using nearly stock clocks, and air. Not saying it would be comparable to your scores, but with a comparable set up as yours, I think close to 30,000 is doable with the AMD card. Im already getting OCed 2080 type graphics scores with my card.

 

Don't forget @Prema, @iunlock, and myself's score using laptops...

 

Not many people benching with an all AMD setup like mine, as I am number 1 thru 15 on 3d marks website for firestrike. I still cannot figure out how the one person ahead of me on HwBot scored a 25,200 with the same set up as me. Obviously 3dMark didnt accept his score, or he would be ranked above me on their site.

 

What score?

 

https://hwbot.org/submission/4074892_ethanlerma_3dmark___fire_strike_radeon_vii_25210_marks

 

Working on setting up the 2nd test bench tonight for the purpose of binning. It'll be much more convenient and free up the main test bench...

About to test a few full nickel and copper prototype IHS on the 8086K's...

I've finally decided to just put the Gold water block to use lol. It was just a collectors piece in my hardware china cabinet lol.

 

So how is he ahead of you?
Nevermind, that's ragesets score.


Edit: Tess hack
https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/33632823

 

That is @Rage Set score.

https://www.3dmark.com/compare/fs/19019306/fs/18357407

https://www.3dmark.com/search#/?mod...zen 7 2700X&gpuName=AMD Radeon VII&gpuCount=1

 

Take the check out of "show only valid results"

 

LOL, ok. I didnt even think about that...

 

The longer you wait, the higher the scores has to be. When is a matter of time? Soon one week since your post your statements.

Maybe you still waiting for fixes so that DGFF graphics won’t go up in smoke?
https://www.3dmark.com/fs/19011465


When are you finished tuning your new Alienware Area? This weekend? Maybe @captn.ko can be a stand-in the meanwhile?

 

LOL what? I had a hard time trying to make sense of what you're trying to say.

I'm not waiting for anything. It's called having other projects to attend to.

What is your point anyway?

 

Sorry.
Maybe re-read your own post Here we go #4797

 

No need. That's not what I was referring to. What I was referring to was your wording.

Fantastic score by Prema... New mark to reach for.

 

Jesus you guys are fast in finding stuff...
Please don't use me or my mods to start unnecessary arguments about if "xyz" is better.
If I would want to go that route I would have done it a long time ago. Thank You!

We are trying to get UL to clean up their lists, maybe post there to push it:

https://support.futuremark.com/futu...d-in-wrong-category-when-used-with-a-notebook

And here to get Notebook RTX category added on hwbot:

https://community.hwbot.org/topic/40155-please-add-hw/?do=findComment&comment=528150

 

Sooo, when are you going to have SLI 2080 working so I can buy another DTR? hahahaha.

 

link to the fantastic new score!

nvm, found it linked in the next thread i was reading through haha. so @Prema finally joined the RTX hype train eh?

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