Haswell gt3e to crush Nvidia and Amd low end market gpus ?

Well that's probably because AMD has a weaker CPU paired with their iGPU. If the GT3e iGPU is to compete with Nvidia or AMD dGPUs (which will likely be paired with an Intel CPU), the GT3e won't have that advantage.

 

From GT2 this score?? What will manage GT3 and GT3e?

 

more importantly how does trinity fare on those games?

Results: HD Graphics 4600 In Skyrim And WoW : Core i7-4770K: Haswell's Performance, Previewed

 

In some CPU heavy games yes. But the main problem for Trinity in mobile is the throttling due to TDP issues. In some game with heavy CPU+GPU usage GPU clocks down. In 3dmark11 graphics test with less CPU work its iGPU Turbo is loaded because it fits into the TDP budget. iGPU clock range from A10-4600M differ between 686-497 Mhz. This can make a huge difference.

 

Yup, thats just GT2. GT3e? Everything from 1500-2000 is my guess.

 

Yep, I find that too. Richland is supposed to "fix" this. The odd thing is that wasn't the case with Llano.

 

Very impressive, if all these true that means Intel not just gonna have better CPU also faster GPU. Poor AMD..., it also means I finally can look for nice, premium built, energy efficient thin 14" ultrabooks.
However I concerned about graphics quality, because recently I've tested Intel and AMD laptops with same graphics settings and with high settings Radeon graphics was richer. Looked like Intel skip some graphics extra and movements were strange...

 

yeah, I saw a lot of people commenting on this, not with intel and amd, but between the image quality of AMD and Nvidia, I preferred the AMD, but a lot of people pointed the nvidia rendering as of better quality or something like that

Given that Im rocking a lowly HD3000 and for comparison a 4670m, I cant point out clearly a winner

if you want a 14'' ultrabook, I think you will end up with a 28w part, those are supposed to come with the 5100

 

That is what I think for to have, hope won't throttle like the 25W Trinity; Nice 3DMark 11 score, terrible gaming performance. The 17W Ivy Bridge doesn't seemed to throttling, I have the hopes 27W Intel will do the right thing too.

 

Intel's part will likely be costlier than AMD's so the performance u get from that is still quite good. However, Intel apparently has tricks up its sleeves with its iGPU. Seems like were all waiting for the results now.

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Intel has, in the past, had no qualms about reducing image quality to improve power consumption or performance. This is part of their power efficiency edge, in combination with aggressive power gating. I personally think the eRAM cache is a fantastic idea and won't be surprised if it approaches the performance of the GDDR3 650m, but I can't see it being deployed in anything other than a Macbook Pro 13" type machine, larger ones will benefit more from a dGPU while smaller/thinner ones can't handle the TDP.
Be interesting how AMD's GCN equipped APUs fare

 

Not impossible considering that AMD have ton more experience than Intel with creating drivers for graphic cards. So they are probably tweaking the drivers to create more dynamic picture than Intel. I guess in time experience will help Intel do the same though. After all, With GT3e they are walking right in to the dedicated graphic space where only Nvidia and AMD could roam free earlier.

 

Intel GPU drivers have always been their downfall, and there's nothing to prove that they are committed to improving that. You will likely get one driver update a year, two if you're lucky.

 

You are plain wrong. Intel told they scheduled one major release each quarter and if necessary between major releases bugfix drivers. Intel creates (averaged) every 10-14 days new drivers. Your notebook or Motherboard vendor can release this drivers whenever they want because they have access to this drivers. There are many different sources where Intel users can get new drivers. Last year I installed over 30 different drivers on my system. Here is my not complete collection from last year: http://s1.directupload.net/images/130506/22zki67a.png

 

..........

 

this is exactly what S3 VIA is going to do with all those igpus and dgpus in the market

 

So it seems Intel has begun increasing the die space for the igpu like AMD has done now for years in order to improve igpu performance. Maybe it'll allow for AMD to catch up on the CPU side of things whilst Intel catches up on GPU performance? GT3e Haswell is shaping up to be a very interesting part. Something tells me were going to see a heated battle.

I just hope its not limited to only a select few notebooks. Give us what we ask for!

 

Something tells me its entirely on AMD hands to win or to maintain, they cant lose

larger die sizes means less chips per wafer, means higher cost

 

Not now. AMD is still stuck with 32/28nm. Wait for 20/14nm and it'll get interesting.

CPU/iGPU balancing is only one part of the story. AMD is trying to get rid of stand-alone iGPUs and push towards heterogeneous chip designs while Intel is going in the opposite direction and trying to make their iGPUs behave more like dGPUs. Not sure how it'll play out.

 

they are moving in the exact same direction

 

Yeah I think Intel will or have to change their driver update schedule now that they will be eating in to AMD/Nvidia dedicated marketshare. After all, with more users buying a notebook with just GT3e they kinda rely on Intel providing driver optimizations regulary

What do you mean by "they can`t lose"? AMD have everything to lose. How do you think Intel on 14nm vs AMD on 28nm gonna play out? I`ll tell you have that will go; It means Intel can shove in more transistors to get much better performance while staying on the same TDP envelope. In the meantime AMD is stuck on 28nm and there is only so much you can do while still staying within the 35W TDP limit they created. Intel have a huge advantage with their fabs.
Both can add more area for more cores or bigger memory, but they still have to stay within temperature and power margins which is pretty slim with mobile CPUs.

 

I think Koala has a point. AMD is unifying their memory architecture with hUMA and shared gddr5 while Intel is adding another discrete cache.

Both are aimed at getting more performance, but through different design philosophies.

Though they both seem to be towards having a SoC with stacked memory eventually.

 

They cant lose. Its simple either there is bailout of the company or there is a dismemberment of intel

With the emergence of ARM, there is a slight possibility of losing, still not real enough for other sectors

I dont know, if you look at how the igpu for intel is designed you can clearly see some tells on how that is moving in the same path heterogenous computing, they have been moving towards like for a long time

 

Aha I see, you are just stating that they can`t afford to lose?

 

no Im stating that they cant lose and intel cant afford them to lose.

Its strange when your competitor is cheering for you

We are always limited to oligopolies in the tech industry due to the extreme high cost of entry and maintenance. However to only have monopoly is something entirely different, if AMD fails, it will probably be bailed, if they are not bailed we see a dismemberment of intel

We the consumer also have to cheer for amd, if intel is divided we will see a decrease in innovation on a very very strategic market, but given the side effects this is a very remote possibility, because of the high R&D costs

In the end WE cant afford AMD to lose

 

I`d like to see some proof that Intel would be split in a new company if AMD would lose. Anti trust laws may not apply now for Intel and AMD because the field of computing is now being defined more broadly than just the PC, according to some recent articles.

People always assume the marked would crash or would be doomed if AMD went bankrupt. Nobody have any proof of it or something to back it up other than something thats been around since ages ago started by some guy so it must be true. Time have changed, it may be different today.

 

yeah the thing is its not that the market would crash, fire would rain down the sky, or something like my cat would start using the litter box.

Its about something resembling competition to spur innovation, its an oligopoly they are already price fixed

and arm is not there yet, it will take them many many years to reach there, but there is also the thing that they are very different archs

 

ARM is not there yet? They (touchpads) are eating in to the PC market share each year and causing PC sales to dwindle down in a steady pace. Acer, Asus and many OEMs have spoken out in media and are all very concerned about the situation.

Have you seen what the upcoming Snapdragon 800 or Tegra 4 can do? 1080p games with rich details, play 4k movies. They will eat more in to the market share. Tegra 5 are already in the works. I can`t blame people since I feel it myself how nice it is to have a light weight fanless device that runs on battery which I can drag around anywhere I want and use for many hours.
So I can`t help but wonder if AMD and Intel may join force sooner or later. x86 vs ARM won`t be pretty in the future.

 

So what? AMD has the jaguar and intel has the atom going in the tick tock cadence now, Both still outperform ARM and will keep doing so

the consequence here is the emergence of smartphones and that gave way to tablets, ARM was available at the time, x86 wasnt. its been barely a year since you can actually do some work on tablets with the MS surface,

Roché on their very mobile workers gave them 2 things, one thinkpad from the X line and one Ipad, the latter is barely used for real things, its more of a high stated mail checker and note taker, all the tables and everything need to be done on the thinkpad

Basically tablets are good for consumption, still not good to be useful. For me its a glorified TV, it has its uses (which for me are none) and thats about it

 

It won't eat into anything unless they can be x86/x64 compatible. Windows as a productivity OS is securely anchored in 90% of the world's businesses. 99% of serious gaming is tied to x86/x64 platform. There may be less need in general for PC's as there's other ways to consume, but for anything that requires horsepower x86/x64 is here to stay and as the majority player.

 

Meanwhile, a bit away Microsoft's sales-offices - you can actually compile most programs without making any changes to the code, for multiple platforms. In fact, that's how many popular programs have been "ported" to iOS and Android - you keep the core of the program, and write a new frontend.

Or said in another way - the way Microsoft has married their software to x86 is not because of the platform, but because of the way their development tools are constructed, and because they are invested in maintaining the "productivity computer" idea.

Meaning that what you are really saying is that as long as the arm devices don't natively run windows, they are no good. Which is not the case. And frankly has not been the case for at least ten years.

 

I never said that they are no good, not even remotely. The point is that the most predominant OS by a long shot is Windows. Bazillions of dollars invested in hardware, OS, applications, utilities by companies and home users. Home users can more easily switch, but companies would need a very very significant reason to change. It's not only OS, but it's all the software would need to be recompiled. It would take a paradigm shift in the industry for that to happen.

 

Sure. And yet, there's no reason why different software foundations, closed and open, that are made with a very clear intention to port across platforms in the first place -- wouldn't be possible to exploit more easily, and more cheaply, for a wider variety of services.

I mean, there's no paradigm shift involved here. The foundation is already there. Only thing that has to happen is that people stop buying tickets to a company's eco-system rides, and start paying for solutions to services they actually need.

 

What exactly is your point here? You clearly didn`t get mine.

I said ARM and chips alike is becoming a threat to PCs. You said it didn`t because ARM "is not there yet". I said ARM is already eating in to the PC market and its shrinking for each quarter. That Intel or AMD creates a low power sucking CPU is valid how? They still have to fight ARM and the touchpads with Atom, Jaguar or ARM will still continue to eat away market share from PC, especially notebooks, since it a ton more convinient with a touchpad than a notebook.
So regardless if you like it or not, ARM is here to stay, hence all of the above might be enough reasons for Intel to buy AMD and still not be under the Anti trust law.

Its nice that you have a certain episode from a company where they picked Thinkpad instead of iPad. In a work enviroment I guess notebooks still rule since it can do a lot more than a touchpad plus the input methods is much more easier and faster. But I can post 100s of reports where PC makers and the whole industry is raising the alarm against touchpads. Not to mention sales statistics.

Hardcore gamer laptops and desktops will still be untouched by ARM and likes, since the technology is nowhere near that performance. But its still a small niche, and it is not where the money is made for the PC industry. Its the mainstream notebooks, the ones with IGP and an i5, or netbooks. And they are hurting badly. Netbooks is officially dead thanks to touchpads. Tegra 4 and 5 is getting pretty close to what is considered enough for the mainstream folks: Play movies (even 4k), games in 1080p, no fan, no noise, consume very little power and therefor give 10 hours+ battery life. And that is why PC sales is shrinking.

 

I got your point, let me explain my post to you:

1) You argue that ARM is eating PC margins, at start they were just complementary devices, now they are trying to eat at consumer consumption models

2) I argue that consumer patterns of consumption may be or not satisfied by the tablets, it could be another netbook affair all over again.

3) arm has competitors on the x86, which are devoting a lot of resources to that, with chips much more powerful than anything that ARM can churn out for several years

4) I pointed out that while this may suffice for consumers the vast majority of enterprises while giving tablets to their employees are still faced with limited functionality. And that is very daunting. The case of Roché is but one among several others. And its not the problem of proprietary software its their incapacity of delivering office experience

New points

5) Netbooks are dead because of their lack of power, not because of touchpads, touchscreens or other exotic proposition, its simple as that. The price wasnt so inviting anymore

6) PC decline in sales is no mystery either, its simple decline of demand due their needs being satisfied. Companies have pushed for more time in between purchases, for example my father is rocking a x61 for work and he works as a director in Pilkington, no plans for a new one. For consumers the power is now enough for most of the tasks that they do. The "privacy" of laptops leads you to buy 1 for each in the house, thats a spur, but it has been fulfilled. The other problem is the economic crisis given that they have enough power why would they invest in new (now) luxury needs? Their only alternative is to invest more on developing countries where the demand is still there and where they are still growing, however there is a very very large gap in our consumer patterns to your consumer patterns

7) its not that easy to redo x86 apps for arm format, that leads to usual loss of performance and more developing costs that may off set the value of insertion, not to mention the need to adapt the UI to perform the tasks which may in turn not be on the guidelines of the strategy for the said app or family. Leading to sometimes disaster in sales like the surface and windows 8, the latter could have been much better if the UI was more mature

PS: this is way off topic to this thread, we either continue on another one or stop here

 

I don't think you're quite saying what you want to say. It's architecture vs architecture (ARM vs x86) in different market segments (mobile vs traditional PCs).

Saying "ARM is already eating in to the PC market" doesn't make sense because it's really not. How many ARM PCs do you see around? Next to none. Mobile devices are overtaking traditional PCs, sure, but both those markets include ARM and x86 devices.

Also there would definitely be investigations by the US and/or the EU for anti-competitive practices if Intel were to buy AMD. Saying that Intel would be safe because Intel and ARM (the company, and it's licensees) both exist in the field of "computing" is like saying that Standard Oil didn't have a monopoly because it existed with firewood in the field of "energy". Without AMD, Intel would simply be uncontested in certain market segments.

Which is not to say that we "need" AMD... If ARM can gain significant market share in the desktop PC market then they can be a suitable substitute for AMD. But as of now we can actually see the effects of AMD on Intel. It's likely that Intel's focus on the iGPU and lack of improvement on the CPU side is a result of AMD's weak CPU design and strong iGPU.

 

Touchpads is more or less a PC. That was the whole point with the rumor that started. Since ARM is taking a huge slice of the PC market and touchpads can be used the same way as a PC, they both fall under a general term called "Computing".
So if AMD dissappears, Intel will have the PC enthusiast market by itself, which is a very small market, while fighting against touchpads in the mainstream market.

I don`t know exactly what qualify as anti trust and what does not since I haven`t studied the laws, but there is more or less a very diminishing difference between a PC and a touchpad if you ask me.

 

touchpad = trackpad = pointing device that is used to command an arrow for interaction in a visual UI

 

Just because something has a keyboard doesn't make it an actual computing device capable of doing productive work. It's like comparing a Segway to an actual automobile. They both get you from A to B, but one is a lot more comfortable, faster, and can store and do a lot more.

Tablets and convertibles are toys. Maybe that's what people have wanted all along with laptops, but laptops were the only thing available. I personally could never survive with just a tablet or convertible. They're too weak.

 

So what can a PC do that a touchpad with a keyboard can`t do?

I totally get that the workstations (science calculations, 3D programs etc) and hardcore gaming is still PC territory though. But for the Average Joe, what is the difference?

 

well pretty much everything, a touchpad without a cpu, ram, mobo, screen, is a very useless thing, do please put that in a good looking carcass that has a battery built in, along with a keyboard, we call it notebook in this world.

try to make table and a presentation, I use those things in my uni, I also need for that very impressive and powerful hardware, afterall excell is a pretty nasty app

 

For browsing and video watching, not much really. But I've yet to find any Android device that doesn't choke on true 1080p and not to mention compatible codecs for a wide range of media file types. I can't get mkv's to play a lot of times.

And my daily engineering load, multitasking general office apps. Manage a dozen excel spreadsheets, same amount of browsers/tabs, 3D CAD browser... My crap work laptop with Core i3 and 8GB RAM chokes all the time as it is. I need an i7 and 16GB RAM. And that's not that serious of a workload.

 

GT3e tested: AnandTech | Intel Iris Pro 5200 Graphics Review: Core i7-4950HQ Tested

 

And it delivered. Talk about putting a deadly blow to AMD. One thing is that it beat Trinity, but seeing over 2x the performance when Trinity had a huge lead before? Couldn`t imagine this in my wildest dreams. AMD gonna have a hard time matching this with Kaveri. Intel might now be ahead with both GPU and CPU performance for all future

Highest settings in all games. HD5200 vs 7660G:

Metro Last Light: 107% faster
BioShock Infinite: 157% faster
Sleeping Dogs: 45% faster
Tomb Raider: 163% faster
Battlefield 3: 71% faster
Crysis 3: 105% faster
Grid 2: 143% faster

Intel Haswell HD5200 is in average 113% faster than AMD Trinity 7660G

 

Kaveri is gonna use GDDR5 cache in the cpu

 

Mobile Haswell SKU will be extremely expensive so there is no point to compare it to Trinity/Richland. OEMs will choose dGPU instead of Iris Pro anyway.

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Heat
Power Consumption
Thin build

All these points speaks against your theory that OEMs will rather use discrete GPUs.

It will be very interesting. No doubt about it. GDDR5 alone won`t magically make up for the difference though

 

I can buy a Trinity A10 notebook right now for $500 on a sale. Id be willing to pay more if it included more premium features too. I can't yet buy any GT3e notebook and I doubt ill be able to get one for $500 on sale if and when it becomes available! It will surely cost more that's for sure, but performance has jumped a lot. Richland will give a generous bump in performance for similar costs but Kaveri GCN will put this GT3e to shame both in cost and igpu.

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"but Kaveri GCN will put this GT3e to shame both in cost and igpu."

Based on?

 

It might contribute significantly if the PS4 bandwidth is any indication. And while I realize that console is a different design, AMD might incorporate some design aspects into Kaveri. With HSA being in it, not to mention changes in Bulldozer/Piledriver architecture on the CPU side... it could contribute a significant boost to APU's on all fronts - but this is just guessing game at this point because we don't know what kind of results will these changes brings in the end.