New details about Nvidia`s Maxwell

Nope. Its all planned.

You bet OEMs want to show notebooks with 800M series there

 

And 790 to follow on 23, I guess.

So boring to hear about 790 as there is nothing we don't know of it.

Hope it wont take long to be revealed.

 

Wich 750m? DDR3 or GDDR5?

 

Source didnt say. It was more general so I suspect he was talking GDDR5 too. But GT 845M will probably be just like GT 750M with DDR3 and GDDR5 models, so one should aim for the GDDR5 model

 

Why are they still making cards with 64-bit buses and DDR3 RAM? Yet on the mid and high end cards they give you an insane amount of fast GDDR5 vRAM. Stupid, just stupid.

 

Hello Maxwell

 

Thanks Cloudfire for keeping us updated with these excellent information :thumbsup:!

845M and 850M are already quite likable with those 3DMark11 points, but the 40W TDP is not super good, I was hoping these closer or under 30W...

I was thinking further and found my super efficient Radeon 8750M with ~17W TDP makes 2000 points ( 2300 with overclock), so in terms of performance / watt these maxwell chips might not better than GCN. Am i calculating something wrong?

 

Take the GT 840M and GT 845M with a huge load of salt. They seem highly inaccurate because they will have less cores than GTX 850M but somehow get the same TDP. That is wrong.
Also the TDP of GTX 765M is wrong.
But GTX 850M and GTX 860M TDP seems what I expect.

Bah I`m gonna edit that chart to reflect more real TDP.

 

860m @ 45W ~ 15% better than 765m.

Maybe it has higher overclock potential too? That would be great.

 

There, edited the Kepler cards to show more real TDP. I put ? over GT 840M and GT 845M because they must have been wrong.

GTX 860M and GTX 850M however was real when you look at the desktop cards which they are based on


Hello Maxwell

I have a guy with GTX 860M GPU-z screenshot, but I have to pay to see it. Seriously
It will eventually leak out any time now anyway.

I`m also very interested to see how 860M do with overclocking

 

Well that is makes more sense, I hope than these not the real TDP figures, just a Chinese guy was writing something. I'm expecting 840M under 20W, 845M under 25W and 850M equal or little over 30W. My guess is based on that the desktop maxwell chip is lot more efficient than GCN, than mobile maxwell should be also more efficient than mobile GCN.

 

This would be normal as cutting compute units only lowers power by a little so they tend to keep the same TDP.

 

Well GM107 have 5 SMM`s. If GM108 have 3SMM`s that TDP will of course not stay the same.

Very true. Just remember that chart you posted a while ago. Maxwell is leaps ahead of GCN in efficiency. Thus TDP should be pretty low
http://tpucdn.com/reviews/NVIDIA/GeForce_GTX_750_Ti/images/perfwatt.gif

 

So according to this techpowerup chart desktop maxwell is 34% more efficient than the most efficient desktop GCN. The most efficient mobile GCN is the Radeon 8750M with 17W TDP and that is making 2000 3Dmark points. It means a 17W Maxwell with 34% better efficiency should do around 2680 points. Therefore I expect 16W TDP for 840M with 2500 points, hope it will be right .

 

tell him that Information is free or not welcome

 

The only reason I don't see it as a valid comparison is that they are complimentary improvements not directly competitive. The only argument to make is two different competing vendors are driving these wildly different approaches.

The optimization of the rendering stack pipeline needed to happen regardless of the GPU vendor. DX inefficiencies are a hamstring on the hardware. Both AMD and NV can optimize their hardware all day and play that game of leapfrog or catch-up as it relates to the metal, but optimizing or replacing DX is going to be good for both. The problem with mantle (or any other hardware-specific API replacement) is that the GPU vendor does not control its own destiny for implementation.

I REALLY believe that the optimization in software (mantle-like innovation) is the true win, but without a GPU-agnostic API driving it I worry for its future. NV's Maxwell is going to see gains immediately for all games. Could you imagine what the picture would look like for Maxwell with a complimentary Mantle-like API to complement it?

Microsoft needs to take a hard look at Mantle and make some changes to DX for the good of all. It seems like they've started doing that so hopefully it continues. Being a centralized software stack for all hardware instead of one written specifically for one GPU microarchitecture is not easy by any means, but it's what the developers want.

It's complicated.

 

No, that is not 34%, that is 50%...

 

Ah, only ~4800 3DMark11 scores on the 860M, not the 5100 I was hoping for at stock, but still will be a huge improvement over the 820 score that my 5650 gets.

 

How much does he want?

 

Yes, I'm a fan of having DirectX improved, made more efficient, rather than api's like Mantle that are vendor specific.

 

Keep in mind that the chart shows total score and not the important one, GPU score. It may score 5100 GPU points. If it does, then it will be very impressive for a 45W GPU

I don`t know. I gave up reading chinese letters, and the funny over-the-top-google-translations of chinese. "Powerful dragon reveal vest card" etc...
He have already uploaded an entire CD containing drivers and such (330MB) to a certain site because apparantly you need some secret sauce to make GTX 860M happy. So I guess he is selling the GPU to other people since they apparantly need the drivers.

This man speaks the truth. Remember its 100%/64%, not 100%-64%. Think of 100% as FPS. 100% FPS is 100FPS. 64% of 100FPS is 64FPS.
We find out how much more FPS a card have by 100FPS/64FPS.

LOL I dare not question our provider. If they shut down, this site will have extremely little leaks in the future :/

I think we might be pleasantly surprised with 2nd gen Maxwell. Something tells me Nvidia is working on driver based optimizations that involve the mysterious ARM processor rumor which have been floating around lately. Remember 2nd gen Maxwell involves the high end Maxwell cards, which should in theory be the ones who need Mantle like improvements because it is where the CPU bottleneck might occur.

If they get Mantle like improvements to work with that ARM processor, it will boost up all games, not just games coded with a special API. Think of it as a perk like you get with new drivers.

 

I was going to mention the ARM reported to be in the top tier Maxwell cards, but I figured seeing it in mobile was a pipe dream until later 2015. Microsoft still needs to optimize DX even outside of nvidia's brute force approach with the embedded ARM CPU. DX is the root of the whole stack that sits between games and nvidia's drivers.

 

I agree, Microsoft should absolutely follow AMD and do some proper updates on their DX API. After all, its universal and works for all brands. Hopefully Mantle was the kick they needed to do this.

One of the reasons why I think Nvidia wait with ARM until 2nd gen Maxwell, its because thats when the jump to 20nm happens. We know that the die`s will get smaller with 20nm, which makes room for a dedicated little companion chip (ARM) that can help out with different stuff.

 

that's low, i can score 1200 @610/800
I was hoping for 5.1k too but i think some oc will make it go to 5.6k which still is very respectable

 

Yup, HP down-clocked the HD5650M in the Envy 14 to handle heat management.

 

ah, that's bad, toshiba did it too but saphire TRIXX can oc it as much as u want until core voltage become the limitation

 

Cloudfire please explain what the charts are measuring and it seems the GTX 870 is just a tiny bit below 780 is that in performance? and if yes would that not mean 256 bandwidth for the 870?and do you have any idea whether the 870 will be released with the 860 in march?

 

I was just thinking about the 8GB vRAM on the GTX 880m and while searching for a way to run Operation Flashpoint Dragon Rising higher than 1280x1024, I found this post:

Dragon Rising max resolution capped at 1280x1024 Fixed! [Archive] - Steam Users' Forums

" This is not a very widespread problem yet, as there are very few people with video cards or SLI/Crossfire setups that have a combined VRAM total over 2 GB. I do foresee that this will become a problem in the future as more and more video cards come out that break the 2 GB barrier. So hopefully people will be able to find this post when they run into this problem in the future."

Funny that post was just in June 2011, only 2.5 years ago. Now 2GB is pretty much minimum.

 

Yeah, that's a good point, it does seem that VRAM required seems to be pretty much doubling every two years or so. But, that requirement seems to be associated with a new architecture (and the increase in processing power that goes with it), the 880M is still on the Kepler generation, I think 8GB cards would be more sensible for the high end Maxwell cards that will appear over the next two years. So, I don't think it has much of a place on a Kepler card - especially not a mobile card. (880M sli would be able to make more use of it though, but still - 4GB would be best I think).

 

score P in 3D Mark 11
the gtx 870 M is just below 780M because it's basicly a GTX 680M OC with an 192Bit Memory bus
They will be all released in March
Note that 860M will be the only maxwell 870M 880M are rebrands of Kepler

 

Is Cloudfire's Chinese chart measuring 3D mark and if yes is it 3D mark 11,13 or which one? and if my purchasing power for a laptop is capped at 1500$ I would afford an 860/870 only so therefore which one should I consider new maxwell with the old performance (860-770) or the new kepler with more performance (870-780/680?)

 

Based on what we know, 860m should be 28nm Maxwell, 870m Kepler.

 

And 880m? Is that confirmed to still be Kepler? And when?

 

The 880M is already out. It's an overclocked 780M with more vRAM. We're awaiting the arrival of the 880MX (Maxwell).

 

GTX 870M is a maxed out GK104 card. It is a very high clocked GTX 680M (967MHz vs 720MHz) but is missing 8 ROPs and have 64bit less memory bandwidth.
I`d stay away from that card because ROP does play a role with textures (especially AA) and such in games. Plus it have less memory bandwidth which will further decrease its performance. So just because it score almost GTX 780M score on 3DMark11 (720p benchmark with measly 1xAA), it will undoubtly fall behind when you game in 1080p.

It will be unwise to buy Kepler now. There is literally 1 month before we see the first Maxwell cards (GT 840M, GT 845M, GTX 850M/860M) and I`m sure the next ones will come in June (3 months from now).

Another thing is that since GTX 870M already run at 967MHz, you can`t expect to overclock it much higher. GTX 860M is looking like a beast overclocking wise because believe it or not people have overclocked the GTX 750 Ti (which GTX 860M will be based on) to 1300MHz (!!!) without problems and the card is running temps around 40-50C...
If we can manage similar clocks with GTX 860M, you have a huuuuge overclocking headroom to match or even surpass many 700M cards.

 

So mobile cards arrive at the same time desktop cards do?

Or am I missing smth?

Desktop 800 wont be here till June, the earliest.

 

I don`t know, I`m just guessing.

But word on the street is that current 20nm production at TSMC is LPM, which means low power. They are not mass producing high power there right now, which means mobile GPUs should have priority. Because LPM wafers should not be able to do 200W like you find in desktops. Unless they found a work-around with the designs.

 

It's a matter of need : 860M=770M or a little less, if it's enough go for it, else go for 870 880

 

Cloudfire,unlike most in the forums I am not skilled in overclocking through bios or manually in general, all my overclocking would be limited to the 2.0 boost and on board laptop over clocking like MSI's turbo feature would that be enough for overclocking the 860 or do I need to go BIOS and manually. However, the 870 seems like a heavily milked card meaning they crammed so much power and clock speed into it that it will probably run very hot especially with poor factory default pasting which I probably will end up with, so what is your recommendation in this case. Buy the older kepler 870 with all its clocks and cuda cores but risk its heat with poor paste or go maxwell with a 860 and overclock it with already available easy on board boosts (2.0, msi turbo)?

 

I disagree with this.
You are contradicting yourself. 870m, sure is 192bits vs 256bits for 680m. But memory speed is also important. If 870m memory can reach 1600/1650mhz, then there won't be memory bandwith drop against a 680m wich can't go high with its memory. The only thing i agree are rops. But still, if we can find the card around 300/350$, it's a beast.
And for 860m, if i follow your reasoning, it should be crap because it's 128bits bus, even if you can oc the gpu up to 1300mhz.

 

My next is going to be a 14-15.6" thin and light that can game, I've been watching and debating the current models like a hawk. The 860M has me extremely excited. wish they'd just announce it already.

 

Hmm, you are right. It does have the same bandwidth as GTX 680M thanks to the VRAM clocked high. I didnt notice that
But its still missing 8 ROPs. That will impact performance. There isn`t anything special about the card except it have high voltage memory for high memory clocks. Which helps how much on 1344 cores? You be better off with a GTX 680M and just use one of the vbios laying around. Or better yet, buy the GTX 780M which have 192 more cores and 8 more ROPs and 256bit bus with high voltage memory

While GTX 860M have a 128bit bus, its memory bandwidth is actually pretty close to a card with 192bit thanks to the 8x bigger L2 cache which is much faster than GDDR5 memory. So it should in theory be more than enough to accommodate high clocks.

The thing about all new geforce cards is that they usually have a +135MHz limit on how much you can overclock them. If you want to surpass that, you will need a new vbios made by someone.
GTX 870M will not be a cool graphic card, thats for sure. To give you an idea, check out HTWingNuts results with his overclocking. You should be around the same.

What to do? I don`t know. If you want something to last you for a long time but don`t mind temperatures in the 80s, and want high performance, pick GTX 780M. Don`t just buy GTX 870M because its 800M series. Its still just a rebadge. GTX 780M will be a better choice. If you don`t have the money for that card, try to get GTX 680M.

If you want low temperatures and decent performance, pick GTX 860M. Just don`t expect to max out everything. However, with overclocking, it may actually be a pretty good gaming card. But that needs to be seen on reviews first, so if you can wait til March, do that.

 

Have you seen this one? :thumbsup:
http://www.acadia-info.com/ecommerce_share/product_item/fiche_constructeur/PO-MSI-GE602PE-006.pdf

Here is the 17" if you are interested in that :thumbsup:
http://www.acadia-info.com/ecommerce_share/product_item/fiche_constructeur/PO-MSI-GE702PE-049.pdf

 

@cloudfire
That's why i spoke also about price.
780m price is absolutely insane. It'll cost 2x the price of 870m. not worth it.

 

Cloudfire pricing was the GTX 780 even after the new cards are released will not drop below the 1800$ mark in a laptop and the 870m is probably going to be in 1400$-1500$ range and GTX 680 is now 1640$ in MSI gt 60 in amazon.

Price-wise what is the best bang for buck GTX 680 @ 1640$ or
GTX 870 at 1400-1600 only because GTX 780 is out of the price range and will not decrease. below 1800$ because everyone knows the 880 is not worth a list price of 2000$

 

Just look at 660ti reviews, you'll see what 870m is.

Ho, btw, just found un article ( in french sorry ) where they made a test to see the difference between 192bit/24rops vs 256bits/32rops : 660ti vs 670, exactly same frequencies ( 980boost/1500mhz ), and the ti drops with an average 10% behind. When you use msaa 8x, it's around 18% difference.

Now, seeing 680m can't go high with its memory, and assuming 870m can go up to 1600mhz, there will be around 5% difference. Not bad !

 

Interesting. So with 8 ROPs less it was 10-18% behind.

Not sure why you think it will gain 5-13% with higher memory clocks though. I don`t think the GTX 680M @ 980MHz (GTX 870M) is bandwidth limited with a 1200MHz clock which low voltage memory you find on 680M can do. Or maybe I`m not reading your post correct?

@gust: I`m not sure why you think GTX 870M will be cheaper than GTX 680M. Even if its a rebadge, you can bet Nvidia use the 800M name as an excuse to demand more cash for the product. Wait and see what the price will be before deciding.
Notebooks with GTX 780M may even drop when 800M series comes in

 

I know that 680m with 1200mhz memory isn't really limited. But 870m will be @1250. If you can up the memory to 1600mhz, it will close the gap with 680m ( just guessing ^^ ).
And about the price, i hope you aren't right. Since the beginning, i'm just assuming, not telling this for a fact. If the price is the same as 680m, oc it's won't be worth.

Moreover, with my laptop ( 780dxr ) i know i have no hope for 680m/780m/880m. But i still have for 870m. That's why i'm having big hopes for this card.

 

Well don`t get me wrong. GTX 870M will be a beastly GPU for sure and can play most games maxed out.
But I don`t think it will be cheaper than GTX 680M which now sell for $550. The price at launch was around $900 so it have fallen a lot.
GTX 870M is already for sale and goes for $650.

But then again if you are looking for a new system, I think it will be very hard to come across one with GTX 680M while GTX 870M systems will be plentyful.

 

Cloudfire although the prices you stated are probably true, the laptop prices for "X70",""X80" cards do not usually change at least for the previous 3 generations from 580-780, msi for the 3 cards released them at a list price of 1999$ and minimum goes to 1850 as long as they are the top card in that particular year so the 800 series will not be any different as the 880 will most definitely be priced at the 2k$ mark and therefore the "870" laptop with bare specs "8gb ram" and haswell processor will unlikely exceed the 1550$ mark and that was proven by the 670, 670mx, 770 and especially the 770 was even at 1499$ when released at least this is true in the MSI branded notebooks so its safe to assume they will not deviate from these prices.Yet an important note is this is the case for users like me who can not install their own cards and do not buy customized re-seller laptops..So in the end the debate is this for a 1500$ range laptop do we go for a GTX 870 at 1400-1500$ bare specs "8gb ram and 7200RPM 750gb hd and i7 4700" or do we go for a GTX 680 for 1640 "current amazon price" with 12 gbs of ram, a 3630 ivy bridge? 680 vs 870 ??.780 is out of the picture because it will not decrease below the 1800$ mark