*Official* nVidia GTX 10xx Series notebook discussion thread

The only thing, and I do mean, THE ONLY THING, that Optimus does is bump battery life. And to do that, it has to screw with a million other things on a system. Only good implementation of it is on a system with a MUX switch.

And you know what? We shouldn't need it. Battery technology needs to get better. There's tech flying around for the last 5 years about new kinds of batteries; ones able to hold 10x the charge that is currently done; ones able to charge 5x quicker, etc. But none of it ever seems to actually get there. I don't know why. But it's what needs updating at this point.

 

Gottverdammt, nVidia and Microsoft... Why not do it like Macs, and allow switching of the primary graphics adapter? Is that so hard???

 

Optimus started out as a good idea, I was a proponent, watching for changes and fixes to bugs which have now been around for many years.

The MUX switch costs $, so makers leave it off their low end models, and now it looks like MSI has decided to leave that MUX switch off their mid-range models too - dGPU only (thank goodness).

It's also possible it's MSI's way of upselling every potential buyer. "You don't want Optimus? Buy our top models."

Everything below the GT73VR /GT83VR either has Optimus or is dGPU only. The GT72S used to have a MUX switch, now it's dGPU only.

The dGPU/iGPU MUX switch should be like USB ports, a CPU, a display, every laptop should have them.

 

Well nope, even if you have a super battery, an intel GPU will still consume and heat way less than a system with a dGPU running in idle.
SO if you have 200 hours battery life, you'll get 250-300 hours with optimus. Your argument is not good imo .

Optimus on a muxed PC is the best choice out there, and i don't care what some people say, you can't just ERASE a feature because some don't like it, the best option is...to leave the option to choose optimus or not .

 

I thought optimus was dead with pascal in lue of mshybrid

Sent from my ZTE A2017U

 

Optimus will probably never die. I'm sure they'll invent a replacement technology for it with a new name one day, but it's still the same thing when it's all said and done.

Optimus was supposed to be good. It's an unfinished technology.

 

Optimus is only not on the laptops with GSync, most ones without it would still have Optimus.

Optimus will eventually be great, but right now it hurts the dgpu too much. If they can get it working without impeding gpu performance and GSync support I'd be onboard for it.

 

Problem is not the optimus, problem is the stupidity of manufactures in how they implement. it.
I still remember the time when iGPU was first introduced. Some manufactures thought its a good idea to connect the ports like HDMI to the iGPU only despite the laptop having a powerful dGPU. People would buy these only to realize that they can use the dGPUs with the internal screen only.

 

You do have a point where 200 hours on dGPU will equate to 250/300 without.

However, the rebooting is an annoyance for me, even MUX'd. What needs to happen is Windows needs to be capable of changing the primary graphics adapter without needing a reboot. OS X can do it. THAT'S when I would be happiest with the tech. I usually have so many things open that even though I can hit "restart" and be back in usable windows in under a minute flat, it takes a good while to re-open everything (and hibernate has caused too many issues for me in the past to use it).

They will never get it working without impeding performance and negating Gsync support. The iGPU runs the screen. The dGPU simply calculates what happens on-screen. The iGPU would need to be capable of "gsync" for gsync on Optimus to happen. Here is what Optimus prevents:

- DSR
- Shadowplay desktop (and possibly windowed mode; not sure) capture.
- Custom resolutions/screen overclocking by nVidia
- Desktop colour settings etc by nVidia
- Gsync
- SLI from existing in any format (for the little that's worth)

This list is, simply, the things that Optimus, by design, prevents the dGPU from doing. Here are some other issues/design errors that can happen:

- Some games don't see the dGPU or work perfectly with the dGPU. The majority of high profile games generally understand Optimus/have the driver set up, but there's many smaller or more obscure/unpopular titles out there that were never coded for it, and/or never got a driver profile update. Even defaulting 3D applications to the dGPU doesn't always work, I've seen people on other forums need to manually add it to NCP and force dGPU. And there are some random bugs that can happen (albeit extremely rarely) like with Dragon Age Inquisition not working in fullscreen on launch (no idea if it was ever fixed).
- @Prototime's problem a few pages ago where the dGPU simply wouldn't turn off based on how he used it.
- The CPU gets hotter due to the iGPU getting hotter.
- The total power draw on the CPU includes the iGPU's power draw. In laptops, like MSI's recent ones, where they disallow the CPU passing its inborne TDP limits? It means it's that much easier to hit your TDM limit and throttle. It's not such an issue with 6700HQ chips, but the rest of them...
- Slight performance/latency hit, even if negligible most of the time. The fact that the dGPU has to number crunch and then pass the data to the iGPU for it to then render it automatically means there will NEVER be as little latency as a dGPU-only setup. It really isn't much of an issue right now, however I still must mention it.

Let's check the upsides of it:
- Better battery life.
- Ability to use system with dead dGPU.
- VRAM from DWM loads into iGPU, and games get basically full access to the dGPU's vRAM.

That's pretty much it, really.

 

LOL my gt80S keeps shutting off when i put it to sleep, esp if i unplug/plug it in... And the supposedly disabled disk reader keeps popping open...

 

do you guys think a 960m will last at 1080p for this console generation? all low of course

 

If you have a MUX switch that lets you boot into either iGPU for battery or dGPU for AC full power GPU usage, why would you also want/need Optimus?

I assume you mean that either you have Optimus/iGPU or pure dGPU, right?

But Optimus doesn't offer any benefit for AC work, or Battery work. Yes, Optimus is bad news on both AC and Battery.

It's better to have pure iGPU if you want to work on battery, and it's better to have pure dGPU if you want to have high performance on AC.

Optimus on battery, with iGPU + Optimus, the dGPU is available - so it can and most likely without a lot of user tuning will be turned on and used, reducing battery time.

With Optimus on AC, with iGPU+Optimus, the iGPU is active and powered on the CPU carrier taking power and thermal resources away from the CPU, reducing CPU performance.

With Optimus on AC the iGPU is being used exclusively for all Windows OS GPU work - reducing the performance of all Windows GUI operations.

It's better performance for Windows GUI operations to run through the dGPU, but with Optimus enabled it can't.

All internal display activity goes through the iGPU - including dGPU access to the internal display, with the iGPU drawing power and heating up the iGPU/CPU.

The iGPU is routing all internal display content from itself and the dGPU interfering with the dGPU access to the display, disabling Nvidia features and the ability to use the Nvidia control panel to manage the internal display.

A simple iGPU / dGPU mux is all that is needed, Optimus offers nothing.

 

On this same topic, does anyone know if P670 has Optimus or just switchable graphics?

 

It should play most games at 1080p on Low-Medium settings. Don't worry.

Don't buy a 960M notebook, though. If that's why you're asking.

 

I am so looking forward to being able to see that img when the site finally manages to give it up for viewing... been refreshed a zillion times, still broken image.

I bet it's awesome

 

To be fair most of the tech you are talking about could be unlocked by Nvidia to run on an Intel IGP paired with an Nvidia GPU. They wont as it would be sharing tech with Intel however.

 

Intel's getting custom screen resolutions/screen overclocking via their iGPU set up recently. They can't get Shadowplay working as it's directly NVENC. Gsync, I do agree. We both know it's just using the inborne Displayport tech in a more efficient way, like Freesync. Though, this begs me to ask why freesync isn't a thing for intel, since it's supposedly open source?

DSR, I'm not sure how that would passthrough, but if intel does get the custom resolutions working, it could work.

However yes, nVidia hiding all their tech is indeed a large portion of the problem.

 

MUX switch. You can choose Optimus or dGPU only with a reboot. Another reason why it's the best of the slimmer BGA notebooks.

 

Lenovo IdeaPad Y910
i7-6820HK, GTX 1070, 64GB RAM, 2x 500GB SSD in RAID 0

 

Clearly he and I have a different definition of monster.

 

Nothing special, really. It's just Spock giving his Vulcan salute and saying "I concur".

 

That thing looks nice! Do you have a link for it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Nothing that works yet, opened Lenovo sub thread here:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/lenovo-ideapad-y910-gtx-1070-w-i7-6820hk.795886/

 

I just wanted to let people know how obnoxious it is for outsiders trying to go through 200 pages looking for information, but your mind devolves into counting how many times certain people can say BGA blah blah in their posts.

 

It's tedious isn't it?

They don't understand just how silly they all look doing that in every thread.

They have this idea that we *need* to hear it to save ourselves from "BGA Turdbooks".

If it didn't get through to us on the first 10,000 posts, why do they think it will help now?

@Charles P. Jefferies is it possible to move all the LGA/BGA rants to a thread of their own. If they like posting them, maybe they can enjoy them all together in one thread so we don't have to see them?

This is the latest thread they killed:

Acer Predator 21 X
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/acer-predator-21-x.795578/

Maybe that thread could be resurrected by moving out all those rants into another thread, away from the content we were trying to build about the Acer Predator 21 X? We lost momentum from their BGA bashing thread bombing; it's not right we have to start all over - you'll notice noone has - we expect them to come back and BGA bash/bomb us again...

Apparently others are complaining as well:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...enix-has-arisen.781814/page-774#post-10338140

 

I love how these 17.3" notebooks (in the so-called, "premium" segment) have 1440p 120Hz G-SYNC displays. Honestly, I find that to be a very attractive feature.

 

Its such an absurd arguement for most people too. They always sound confrontational, and the average user isn't ever going to upgrade an internal component (even here) or care about the often almost non existent delta in performance. I've used BGA vs MXM 980ms, and much to my shock /s it worked just as well in each one. Even the Optimus "crippling" isn't noticeable in most standard gaming situations. Literally everything from this:
- DSR
- Shadowplay desktop (and possibly windowed mode; not sure) capture.
- Custom resolutions/screen overclocking by nVidia
- Desktop colour settings etc by nVidia
- Gsync
- SLI from existing in any format (for the little that's worth)
- quoted From D2 Ultima

That Optimus blocks most pc gamers don't utilize or care about. I know it annoys users here, and even myself, but you just gotta move on, there's almost no economic incentive to change any of this. P870DM sales are a pretty much irrelevant fraction of PC sales compared to 2000 dollar and less systems no matter how much you don't want it to be.

 

That's interesting, about the Optimus comments bothering you, I'm sorry, I didn't realize saving people from Optimus would offend people.

It's not the same as the BGA vs LGA rants, as it potentially affects all BGA users - not LGA, they don't have iGPU.

MSI has recently added a number of new mid range laptops with Optimus, and it's already causing new owners problems.

And, I am constantly helping people debug Optimus issues, which end up with them dropping that laptop and moving to one without Optimus.

Do you have an Optimus laptop, and have no problems?

Here are a couple of recent posts for users unable to function with Optimus:

GS43VR and HTC Vive - "Compositor Not Available (400)" issue.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...not-available-400-issue.795757/#post-10336261

MSI GS43VR Phantom Pro's Owner's Lounge
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...os-owners-lounge.793376/page-39#post-10337204
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...os-owners-lounge.793376/page-39#post-10338195
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...os-owners-lounge.793376/page-40#post-10338236

MSI GS63VR Stealth Pro Owner's Lounge
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...ro-owners-lounge.795498/page-13#post-10337880

 

I'm not against talking Optimus I was more saying even the optimus stuff. The BGA is even more absurd as the users are so aggressive about. I had an Optimus laptop (GT60) for over a year. Besides having to occassionally remember to force dgpu on a few programs I had no problems with it. That year I had 3 other roomates with Optimus machines as well. No one ever mentioned anything, it all was fine. Optimus makes so much more sense than just a dgpu for a lot of people. The Gigabyte Aero without it would suck, and I did comparisons with my GT60 as well. Running with 880m would last like a freakin hour, while Optimus tripled that. Still terrible battery life, but if you want a machine to actually last through the day Optimus is the only option. The Razer Blade for example is a machine that strongly benefits from Optimus.

I understand that Optimus can cause numerous issues, but they are issues that most users will barely encounter or not encounter. But don't worry I don't mind talking about it, you speak about it cordially. I just mostly don't get the arguments that it shouldn't exist. Especially on like an XPS 15 smh...

 

Yeah, it's the Optimus warning / discussing season

New laptops, unexpected moves by vendors to change aspects of laptops that weren't Optimus and now are.

It's the rare time I harp on something to alert people to be aware and investigate their purchases before rushing in to them. To have patience and wait for owner reviews to learn the gotcha's of new laptops before rushing to purchase.

It's a general warning without Optimus mentioned most of the time, but there are times it comes up in other threads - people unable to use their new laptop for their intended purpose - so I put out the general notice info.

I'll try to reduce the frequency

Sorry it bothers you. But, I am disappointed you mixed it in with the BGA bashing, I was hoping we were going to build up enough support to get those roving bands of BGA bashers thread bombings stopped

 

Lol it doesn't bother me. I'm just saying from my own usage experience with both I think its exaggerated. My new machine is BGA but its not Optimus, so I agree with you lol. I just don't like giving people the impression that these things are like absolutely retarded to consider buying because that's not true. They just have pros and cons.

 

Please never stop with optimus warnings.

It's broken an entire year of my experience and slowed me down a lot..m well with an 860m, it was probably also the gpu fault too.

About bga vs lga , let's just say the following : an bga and an lga cost the same. Someone knowing the distance can save a life ^.^

I may end up with an bga non optimus laptop (cost difference, and speed of when I can get it ) , but I lov the fact that I know the differences, and I'm thankful for knowing not to invest in some models.

All is knowledge . Let's not overhype something that has lots of marketing already. If they invest a lot in marketing, we need to expect really good products. I mean it. Let's not let them sell us bad products! If we can force the market for better products by lowering demand for bad ones, we advance. Otherwise,... what do we pros do ? Just desktops ?

 

Just a quick question, in a laptop with Optimus, can it be switched off? I'm excluding laptops with MUX switches here. Maybe in the BIOS or something?

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

Our feedback to vendors does have an effect, they want to sell laptops to happy customers, not have 10k's of unhappy owners *not* buying new laptops.

Asus went from almost 100% happy G750xx owners to a whole generation of many many unhappy *optimus* G750 owners.

That was when we could accurately gauge the effect of Optimus, because the CPU's were the same across the generation, and we could see the devastating effect the additional 10c of temperature caused by activating the iGPU caused.

The worst part was is that everyone was looking forward to the new generation of GPU's, which got extra cooling because they added heat, but Asus didn't realize the iGPU was going to add so much heat, so Asus didn't increase the cooling for the CPU's, bad news. CPU throttling on the Optimus laptops, where the previous generation dGPU laptops doing the same work didn't throttle their CPU.

I mention this because we all petitioned Asus to drop Optimus in the next generation, and they did

All but the lowest end models, for battery use, had dGPU back again.

So, it's worth it to make your voice heard and your needs known to the vendors.

 

So when I get my GT73VR it will run cooler if I run dGPU all the time?

 

@Galm17 sorry man, here goes more Optimus talk

No, on a pure iGPU only Optimus system the internal display is wired to the iGPU only, and the dGPU goes through the iGPU for all display operations.

It's a physically wired thing that can't be affected by a BIOS option, or software in Windows.

Owners with such laptops have tried all sorts of stuff to try to get Optimus disabled.

Including uninstalling the iGPU Intel video driver and disabling the iGPU through the Device Manager, with unpredictable results from machine to machine.

Usually it just breaks optimal use until the device is re-enabled and the Intel Video driver is reinstalled.

That's why it's important to know the exact details of the function of the video Mux, Mux + Optimus, and Optimus only implementation on your desired laptop *before* you buy it.

Also, your return period will fly by, be aware of your return date(s) so you don't get stuck with a laptop you don't want.

 

Yeah usually. My GT60 was upgraded to a 980m and i had disabled optimus for that.

Again @hmscott go for it! Your doing a good thing. I shouldn't have even said anything lol. You are non confrontational when you talk about it, I literally have never been like tired of hearing it (unlike the bga debate).

Edit: interesting scott wth happened on my system? I totally couldnt use igpu after the modded driver install.

 

The iGPU won't be powered up and vampiring power and thermal headroom from your CPU, so yes, it will help reduce temps - some idle temp reduction, mostly load temp reduction.

Running dGPU only will also stop Windows GUI operations and apps stuck on iGPU only from running on the slower iGPU instead of the big bucks dGPU you spent all that money to get

Some complain about normal low load work on iGPU heating up the CPU enough to turn the CPU fan on and off frequently as the added heat kicks in the fan curve earlier. dGPU operation should stop that annoying CPU fan oscillating start/stop.

 

IDK the specifics of that laptop, especially after swapping in the 980m for the 880m, but it's possible that new GPU didn't have allowance for iGPU wiring and went straight through to the display instead of though the iGPU, effectively cutting out the iGPU.

That's cool

 

Not sure, it was a Clevo 980m in an MSI GT60, i didnt think it could cut through to the display like that. I could force igpu but no Optimus switching would occur.

 

Optimus licensing / activation is keyed to components, so that could have been it as well, if the iGPU was still available but the Optimus code wouldn't "see it" with the new dGPU and new vBIOS.

That's an odd one, but a fortunate turn of events for your laptop

 

I wish they would release the 1050 already. My current laptop is on its last legs and I'd hate to have to buy one with a 960m just as it's about to be phased out...

 

Whats your budget? You could squeeze a 1060 for 1300.

 

I'd rather spend closer to $1000, but we'll see I guess. The 1060 seems like overkill for me though, since the only 3D gaming I do are pretty much MMOs. So I'd rather not spend more $, and get more fan noise and heat (isn't the 1060 a 100 watt card?) for an unneeded advantage.

 

Yeah then that's hard. Maybe find a good deal a 970m laptop. The 970m is 70% faster than a 960m and would suit your needs. Power draw is still high though.

 

I normally avoid recommending purchasing obsolete hardware, but you do not seem to care nor need the latest.

http://www.xoticpc.com/sager-np7256-clevo-n155rd1-p-8671.html

This laptop is good, and it's well within your budget.

 

Thanks for the tip. Hopefully my current computer can last a little longer and some laptops with the 1050 will appear in my price range.

 

That's a solid recommendation there. Just note the build quality on it is fairly bad. Price to performance wise its pretty much unbeatable, but if you can stretch your budget to like 1000 (or wait) you can get a 960m or 1050 laptop (hopefully, it still could be a bit higher than that) that will be built a bit better

 

Yeah, I didn't know if you wanted to wait or not. Good idea on waiting!

We should see the rest of the cards by October.