BGA vs PGA continuation

Read the numbers i7-4980bga aka i7-4810mq. 80 aka 48 numbers. LoL
Up to 4ghz. More like 2.8ghz

 

Yeah none of the BGA chips except 4700EC and 4702EC have 8MB L3 cache. Not that it makes a whole lotta difference but yet another reason why BGA will never be as good as PGA.

 

Wasn't BGA soldered and PGA socketed processors?

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_grid_array
A disadvantage of BGAs is that the solder balls cannot flex in the way that longer leads can, so they are not mechanically compliant. As with all surface mount devices, bending due to a difference in coefficient of thermal expansion between PCB substrate and BGA (thermal stress) or flexing and vibration (mechanical stress) can cause the solder joints to fracture.

 

That's right

Believe me when I tell you the number of BGA machines that sit well into the 90s in average day to day gaming and their users neither know nor care and they stay for a good while. But it is another reason as to why HQ chips are worse; can't handle heat better I suppose.

 

You will notice there are techniques used to mitigate that, and sockets do not help compliance either, the pins are held in close to the socket.

 

The underlying point here is that BGA can be just as good as PGA... problem is that since manufacturers do everything from a cost efficiency point of view, they end up cutting corners.
Mind you, even PGA isn't that great (it certainly has its own faults).

The loss of modularity is regrettable, but arguably, not really problematic if you get decent hardware that can last you a while (say 3 to 4 years).
I would imagine that RAM and storage might remain upgradeable, and unless you are running on an HDD, you'd be advised to upgrade to an SSD instead (although why manufacturers are so stingy and refuse to put in 7200 rpm HDD's is beyond me... the price differential is barely noticeable, while the gains are large).

With DX12, it might be easier a bit to not having to upgrade (if you have DX12 compatible hardware).
So for example if people get laptops with say 970M, 980M and/or Carrizo... the upgrade path won't be that much necessary down the line (unless you work in 3d design and require more powerful hardware... in which case, people might as well wait for Skylake and Zen to come out because those 2 would be the biggest upgrade paths worth waiting for).

 

Okay... I've gotta shoot down many of your ideas here.

BGA can be nearly as good as PGA... but it is as much up to Intel as it is up to OEMs/ODMs. The fact that the 4980HQ is in every way excepting the iGPU inferior to a 4900MQ or 4910MQ (L3 cache size, TDP limits, OC bins in 4910MQ's case, etc) is intel's design. Manufacturers cutting corners doesn't help, but even machines where corners are not cut like the GT72 and GT80, the chips still fall very short. Intel doesn't *WANT* them to be as good as the old MQ and QM lines were. Simple.

RAM may not remain upgrade-able. Much of it is soldered in super thin machines, and is likely to remain soldered, as users just don't care about it. In fact, recently it's come to my attention that many notebooks exist where the first "stick" of RAM is soldered and additional RAM can be added via slots. Despite what people may think, and how "small" the chances are... things *DO* go bad. And if something goes bad and it is soldered to your board, you're in trouble. ESPECIALLY if it's outside of the Manufacturer Standard™ 1 year warranty that most notebooks have. I can't stress how much I push for someone to get at least two years on a notebook if possible. Of course the cheapest of the cheap spenders can't, but anyone else? Definitely. As for HDDs... it's bloody annoying. 7200RPM drives should be the standard. It's why Apple is always seen as the "faster" notebook because they use 7200RPM as a standard, as far as I remember.

DX12 is no end-all solution, and only affects:
1 - Games
2 - Games that aren't out yet
3 - Games that CHOOSE to use DX12 and don't stick with DX11 or 9 or OpenGL
And believe me, older notebook users (especially ones with 4700HQ chips etc) may very well not have drivers available for windows 10. I know for a fact I'm very afraid that my hotkey utility etc will not work on windows 10, and for the most part I'm going to be using a LOT of chipset and utility drivers that are designed for windows 8.1 on windows 10 when I try installing it on this machine. And THAT is going to be one of the largest pains I will ever encounter. And for integrated users who don't get Win 10 drivers and their Win 8.1 drivers don't work? DX12 is nonexistent.

Skylake is no big jump over haswell, and unless Intel relaxes their TDP limits and turbo boost windows for their Skylake HQ chips, we're gonna be in the same boat. Hell, since skylake has a higher rated TDP than Haswell, we might even have things worse. And also, for users who do things other than gaming, the TDP limit rears its ugly head more, even with windows 10/DX12. Rendering and 3D modeling and other various programs that use the CPU quite a bit will always be hampered. The HQ chips are already mostly ok for most games, so it's not like there's a real problem that needs to be fixed for games, which is even more of a reason DX12 isn't a magical fix-all.

 

All I can say is that with BGA CPUs, I see no reason for anything above a 4720HQ due to the TDP limit.

It would always be better for the consumer to have PGA sorely by having the possibility of a choice. And to be honest, be either PGA or BGA, whatever.... we need better CPUs all in all.

 

The thing that is irritating is that Intel is limiting the BGA chips. There is no reason they can't be TDP unlocked like their PGA counterparts. They use the same silicon, it shouldn't matter if they have pins or are soldered to the board. Intel is creating an artificial limit. Nothing else. That is where my hatred of BGA comes from.

 

^ That's exactly what I said in the GT 80 speculation thread, before it came out. It wont matter much if it has BGA chip or not as long as it keeps the XM/MX features (overclocking that is). Sadly it's not the case. Swapping CPUs is just a matter of the right tools, "a bit" more for the BGA, but still, if you have the tools and know-how, you can do whatever you want. What you can't do is go ahead and get one of those BGA CPUs. They are nowhere to be found. That's the really sad part, along with the no overclocking $hit. I miss the C2D era, there were PLENTY of CPUs - PGA, BGA, ES, QS, awesome samples, nice steppings, there were variations of the same freakin' chip for crying out loud... whatever one could've think or want. Intel is getting more and more money-hungry non-enthusiastic non-innovative each passing year, not to say month. Kinda reminds me to one of their probably biggest partners as of now - CrApple.

 

Why are people saying a higher TDP limit with Skylake is bad? That's good. That means they will require more powerful cooling systems. Maybe finally rated where they should be instead of calling a chip 37W when it really needs to be 47 or 57W TDP really to allow the boost to continue for as long as it should.

 

Wishful thinking: Intel calculates TDP, not as maximum power but some type of average heavier use (don't remember details ATM). Unless they changed the way they rate their system, higher TDP is bad news and since I have not heard anything about them changing how they rate TDP it is still wishful thinking, but we shall see soon enough.

 

I would guess that the BGA connection would melt if the CPU pulled more than 45/47w for an extended period of time.

CMIIW

 

Guess how the GPU chips make connection with the board. Then again they do tend to fail more often than not lately.

I never took Intel's TDP ratings for anything more than just a random number. For example, the Extreme versions of C2Ds and C2Qs (yeah, again, they are great for examples) were both rated at 44W and 45W accordingly. That rating goes through the door, the second you power on your notebook, not to mention if you actually overclock it. Then, this 1W difference is more like (probably more than) 20 times that. If anyone ever passed the 3GHz mark with C2Q knows what I'm talking about. So, if they finally adjust this rating, that would be GREAT!

 

Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_design_power some basic info what TDP is, what it is not.
BTW as triturbo already mentioned, besides TDP being based on some engineering testing (I would imagine), I think marketing ads some fudge factor to it, to make it even more meaningless in some cases, but the fact remains higher TDP means higher TDP unless Intel changed system ratings. Intel had some issues with their 14nm process, so maybe higher TDP is related until they get the hang of it?

 

Because Haswell only went up 2W more than Ivy Bridge and obviously it needed more than that. Knowing Intel and lazy OEMs caught up in the thin-and-light fad, there's a good chance Skylake stays at 37W/47W.

 

I hope skylake hits 57W at default and all the thin/light machines get the i5 chips.

I am evil today.

 

Desktop Skylake K chips are 95W TDP at the same frequency as the 88W 4790K. I don't think that bodes well for thermals unless Intel is just being more honest about the TDP now.

With the more powerful Iris graphics though, we all know what's going to happen with Skylake HQ.

 

Yep, what already happens to Iris Pro Haswell HQ. The CPU part TDP throttles more under load.

 

I think the CPU clock are also slightly less then Haswell.. The leaked 6700K has max turbo of 4.2GHz compared to 4790K's 4.4GHz... This really doesn't bode well..

 

To be fair Sandy's 2600K and 2700K parts also had 95W TDP. Of course the difference there was Intel didn't cheap out back then and still used solder on the IHS. Interestingly since AMD's Bulldozer disaster, starting with Ivy Bridge Intel no longer used solder except in the HEDT chips. Coincidence?

 

IMHO the big issue is if there are major problems the damage control would be a catastrophe. Say just 10% of all the CPU's have media issues. It would no longer be just a quick trip to an authorized repair shop or even a DIY project. Because of BGA essentially all those systems would require an entire main board replacement.

 

It's worse for you if you are out of warranty and either the processor or graphics card fails. It will be an very expensive experience with Bga hardware. A motherboard with all hardware soldered on is not exactly cheap to obtain if you dont have a warranty anymore... Also more difficult to obtain a motherboard than a graphics card or a processor.

 

You know, I was in the middle of typing that I felt this would only apply to people who cheap out on purchases and buy super low end machines expecting ~5 years out of it... but then I realized that while NBR is a fairly large collection of higher-end notebook users, it's simply that: a large collection.

We're not the majority, not even close, and there's a TON of them out there that buy machines on 1-2 years warranty then instead of swapping them out every year or two like NBR users might, they'll try to keep them for ages, and if something goes wrong, they're so SOL it's not even funny.
Just look at the number of old clevo owners who are popping up on the forum recently... Their first posts are all like "Hey, my P170HM's AMD GPU died, where can I find another?" or "So my 680M in my P150EM died, any replacements?" and "where can I find a replacement 7970M for my P370EM" and stuff. If they were all BGA, they'd all have needed a new notebook RIGHT NOW. And while what $2000 got them at the time can be had for $1200 right now, a simple $450 970M or $250 CPU upgrade is far far far cheaper than a new laptop entirely. Especially if all their old gear works well enough for them.

 

Many places in north Scandinavia costs a Aw17r2 gaming laptop up to 4000$. Not many people buy a laptop like this every second year. To expensive....

 

1500usd shipping cost?

 

Re-opened as requested by @Mr. Fox

 

Thank you, Brother @Ethrem. +5 rep

Brother @Papusan here is a good place for our elitist BGA hate crimes to thrive.

 

Thank you bro Fox.
A place we can discuss BGABooks, their limitations and rank the most disgusting model. Probably not so hard

Edit. @Ethrem Could you change the thread title to *BGA and their limitations vs. LGA* ?

 

BGA Love Crimes thrive also

Meet Public Enemy #1: ACER Predator 21x
​

Nobody owns this yet, therefore no one's feelings or butt can get hurt, much

Size Matters

BGA Matters

undeniable sex appeal?
now picture complementary 17 / 18 models
ooh la la?
or, what'd ya expect ... it's from BGACER
_________________

Available 2017 with soldered Kabylake & 1080s

Random ACER Rep Q & A​

Will people be able to upgrade the graphics over time?
I've been looking at the market, & upgradeable graphics in laptops has been planned for a while but there's nothing like that now
What components can you pop in and out?
The RAM & the storage. In terms of GPU or CPU, that's not something that's possible as they're always soldered on
What type of gamer will buy the P21 X?
... people who won't want to upgrade for a while ...
What scope is there for overclocking P21 X?
Because it's a laptop we have to be a little conservative in this regard, as we don't want it to catch fire. Our Predator Sense software offers two levels of overclocking: normal & 'extreme'. At the higher setting we tune the laptop to push it to its limits without blowing it up

_________________​

I've posted this Q & A elsewhere & already picked what the Rep said apart in my mind, & yes found something disturbing with each (lame) answer, I still do; who would like to paint for us what's wrong with the above picture ...

• ~$6000 Silicon GPU/GPU Motherboard Lottery
• pro? it won't get soldered Skylake!
• con? Kaby but launches late into Pascal

(I thought it was bad enough, the consumer implications of Dellware launching their soldered Skylake + 1080 in November)

I'm still amazed that Clevo placed a 130watt LGA 4960x into the P570WM: that's like 6700k + 6820HK in the same space. P21x is so large it implies Skylake-eXtreme will have ample room in there someday, to say nothing of Kaby 7700k here shortly

Dream Scenario: you, potential customer, skip their BGA Kaby, avoid this $6000 disposable, vote no with your wallet. You, ACER, launch a mid-late 2017 140watt Skylake-X model (à la Hotwell-E > Bwell-E | Sky-X > ?) rocking MSI / Clevo MXM 1080Tis with the promise of 1180s & beyond

Nightmare Scenario: soldered Kaby + late-issue 1080s = one-hit wonder

ACER: P21x as you've imagined it is the poster child for a dead-end product as I imagine it, the worst kind of Jailienware I've ever seen. No thankyou, your product lost all its sex appeal before it even came to market. I'm a pretend this thing never happened & encourage others to ignore it as well, starting right now. I'll revisit the discussion when the 140watt 6/8/10 cores launch anew next year to see what you did or didn't do with this cavernous interior; by then you'll have had another year of 'looking into the market', where I hope you look a little harder next time, since cpus / gpus aren't 'always' soldered on, not unless companies like yours insist they are. Since you insist they are, I imagine another dream scenario where P21x gets one production run, fails, & your employees & other companies in general know not to pull a stunt like this again

____________________
edit: oldie but a goodie from page4 of this thread​

You're totally right HM, BGA makes no sense in the highly optioned 18" MSI GT83VR & it will nev-uh ev-uh can not ev-uh make sense in a 21 incher

6700k | 6920HQ | 6820Hk
MSRP
~$340.00 | $568.00 | $378.00
​

LGA's cheaper than BGA, overclocks better too, but we know that; however, who won & lost in the price-to-performance war was a hot-topic last year as it is equally this year. BGA makes no sense in an 18 & it costs more: what is wrong with this picture

​

 

Wow, quite the thread. Makes me glad I bought a February, 2016-build Latitude E6440. As fast as the latest shipping BGA i7's, has the same 14" 1080p IPS display they're putting on the newest laptops with eDP, and I can still toss in an i7 if I want. All for roughly 1/3rd the price of the latest stuff.

And that monster laptop, good grief, who the heck would want something like that? I just don't get the 'use case' for that.

 

Actually, the only person that got called on it was you, and you called yourself out by exaggerating and making inaccurate statements. I've done that to myself a few times... to err is human, so not a big deal.

I agree that putting a high performance CPU in something that isn't designed to handle it is a bad idea. That won't end well. I also agree that BGA in a large/competent and expensive platform marketed as high performance makes no sense, and that's why there is so much controversy. Too many ODMs are selling castrated junk, and they deserve massive public ridicule for doing so. It is totally ludicrous that MSI uses BGA CPU filth in their 17 and 18 inch gamer-boy notebooks and truly retarded that the Predator 21X uses such an emasculated piece of trash for a CPU and BGA GPUs. So what changed between when you said this and now? Going against the flow and resisting garbage is just too difficult compared to surrendering and taking whatever they offer?

Showing disrespect for people whose buying decisions have contributed to our current sorry state of affairs where every junkbook that isn't a Clevo with a desktop CPU and MXM slots is poor etiquette, but hating garbage technology and calling out filth in public is perfectly acceptable. The more the better. They need to be held accountable for their engineering stupidity.

The problem is when people get all butt hurt and take everything personal because they are so self-centered they think it's all about them. The hate is for emasculated BGA trash tech dominating almost every option available in notebooks, not the people that don't know any better or don't care if they own emasculated junk.

If memory serves me correctly, I paid $250 for my 2920XM and $500 for my 3920XM. Because they were socketed, I was able to upgrade the CPU after prices dropped by $700+ on eBay. And, in the case of both upgrades it was worth every penny.

End of Discussion? Let's hope not.

 

Acer create more BGA trash than just the big BGA boy *Acer Predator X21* - The world's first curved BGA MACHINE!! Meet Acer's graphics dock with BGA http://www.notebookcheck.com/Test-Acer-Graphics-Dock-mit-Nvidia-GTX-960M.174548.0.html

Ps @Cass-Olé rep added for your post

 

Sheesh... what a joke! I guess that just goes to show that if you build the filth, the Kool-Aid drinkers will come, LOL. Interesting that they chose such an anemic piece of old tech with 960M.

 

Yes as you see.., You should not rely on that Acer would seriously offer people proper socket hardware in their best high end laptop now or in the future. This is what I call... TRASH. A graphics dock with Maxwell BGA. OMG so distant

 

probably cause the 960M chip is cheap af right now

it was already outdated when it launched as the 750ti, it's only belongs in the garbage right now

 

Well, since it is Acer they got the last part right. Par for the course. Garbage in/garbage out.

Maybe they'll offer BGA 960M SLI and BGA Celeron CPU in the Predator 21X turdbook for less money to the Facebook gamers.

 

Here is what is being missed. So long as the standard holds too BGA eventually it will start outperforming PGA hardware substantially. This may not be today and my guess is we are all having fun poking the bear but one day that will end. The bad thing about it too is they will all tout about "I told you so and BGA is so great" when we few here will know the truth.

 

Whether that's true or not remains to be seen. If BGA becomes the only option for desktop as well this will be a self-fulfilling prophecy by default whether it is accurate or not. The current state is that BGA is crippled and socketed desktop CPUs offer superior performance by every measurement.

 

if intel make a true pga socket 6700k variant, it'll cost 1k like the old XMs

:|

 

if that day ever comes I'll still opt for a LGA socket. Not out of stubborn pride, but still under the firm belief that an expensive enthusiast grade machine needs to be serviceable. This mentality that there's nothing wrong with having a $3000+ disposal laptop that's only useful under warranty is horrid.

 

to be fair though, dell warranty is comparable to having a socketed machine

 

Right on... can't hang with that BGA feces.

ha ha... sometimes you really crap me up, bro.

 

Will Dell's warranty help you in the silicon lottery? What if you want a better binned chips because the one you got is useless for more than 4.1 GHz? Can you then Ask Dell for help so you can get a better chips? Is an extended warranty cheap? What if you can't extend the guarantee within the deadline due to lack of money? What if you only have money for a single option? Either choose the hardware you want or pay for an extended warranty? Are you screwed? I would pay for better hardware. Not for better warranty!!

 

Yes, BGA= Disposable. Why suffer from disposable when a GPU or CPU has issues. I HATE BGA! And I am not a gamer even. This issue affects all enthusiasts and high performance computer owners.

 

yea, there's no substitute for good hardware


good thing about 6700K, you can buy socket clevo and 10 different cpu from micro center, keep the one that overclocks the highest

 

Yeah, I really wish everyone else saw it the same way Vote with your wallet

 

mmm hmmm, tell that to @Raidriar Warning: Alienware 18 parts no longer manufactured aka warranty on a Dell socketed machine nets what, a BGA in trade?

mmm hmmm, @ the Jailienware Depot

_________________
the Elephant in the Room​

Gentlemen. I'm trying to troubleshoot a no-start situation for the Corsair ax1500i Doom'sDay Machine in a brand new Area-51 R2 Dorito at this very moment, & only have time for that one all-important $400 elephant in someone else's room right now & sadly not my own
Scenarios:

• owner purchased ax1500i Amazon (no start)
• owner went to Frys for ax1200i (no start)
• courier delivers new ax1500i (no start)
• leave 1500i cables in case, remove 1500i
• courier delivers Hx1000i today, insert = start
• Hx1000i works with 1500i cables
• owner buys HX1200i (no start)
• owner installs 1500i into different pc = start
• 1200i also = start
• stock 850w worked the whole time as system tester
• owner is competent enough to start the 850w & 1000w

Verdict? Alienware sold a gimped motherboard incapable of powering three of the finest power supplies yet invented. I dare you to find a confirmed 1200i/1500i swap online, anywhere the past 2years with the stock mthrbrd

​

Cheap Frank. El-Cheapo. And uh, you're 'right' old man, it ain't a $500 board ... ... ... it's $550 from Dell Sales. Cheap board with an ultra-premium pricetag

_______________________________​

Three people tried ax1200i, each got nothing but a 'click'. The mthrbrd's gimped ... it may be the only mthrbrd on Planet Earth that can't these Corsairs = true Alien Hardware

• JonnyGuru thinks it's the power ok signal = a Bios issue
• Alien Sabotage = go back to Dell for their $465 1500w?

Mobius ... 1200i will work in A51 R2
if you CHANGE the ____ mthrbrd to something normal​

 

you lost me at "can't power 3rd party psu"