My back won't allow me to carry the BGA filth. That's It, I see this BGA as the Tip of iceberg there's more to it..
It's not about upgrades all the time, It matters because I'm paying for the HW and I have the right to make the decision on what stays and what doesn't and offer some expansion later-on. My mind just cannot comprehend to the BGA design on a $2k machine, Alienware forums with Legacy machines are still alive because ? You know the answer !!
People love to keep their HW for longer time ffs. Not everybody wants to throw them into dumpster when new tech comes, this norm is kicked recently with the Huge Smartphone influx and people accepting the trash in their pockets and willing to charge them so quickly and exhaust all the Li-Ion cycles and then dispose off for a new shiny phone, repeat. So now only a few realize that people with mind are still here (LG V20 2016 flagship with removable battery option failed by bootloader lock is an another issue, Still a point to note)
Previously we had batteries, expandable storage option and this crApple's BGA love had tainted the whole industry and from the basic analytics Intel pulled this stunt from Haswell BGA/ Alienware Privatization 2013 ( - the unseen force behind this push, My intuition says this is the reason behind that and hell even MXM, Dell is a giant corporation and with such amounts of power It can twist the whole industry by a sharp 180 degrees of regression) occurred at the same time frame, leading to this disastrous gimped future we are headed towards. Not to mention the people with minds these days are less numbered thus BGA is flourishing among the mass market leading to this filthy gimp-infection spread like cancer to every industry - Win X (lack of choice) / Console - PC game port Gimps (Downgrades, Half finished products) / Nvidia & Intel's monopolistic rip off fest (GTX 970 fiasco, Intel's Kabylake-Mafiasoft agenda, GeCancer experience drivers)...
Hope this thread re kindles the flame and make people realize that Corporations are here to nail us. Sadly $ <- is the only thing even best of us shoot for, not help us out when they become a gigantic force / market lead, Only the numbers can move these immovable forces (Nvidia's Clockblock backlash from NBR) that are silently crushing (Facebook etc click bait foolish stuff -- Pokemon Go) the thoughtful part of being a Human...Well I guess was too deep but I just want to write it anyways..
LOL.
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I prefer PGA on higher end machines. I would only approve of my wallet vote to a nomenclature that were to overcome some PGA limitation with no penalties. That being said I have no real issue with lower end devices being BGA.
I just looked at the performance of my NP700G7C and other than 3D it is plenty strong enough. Apparently M$ with W10 has made me think to go Linux but I some how doubt that will ever be a stranglehold to the hardware either.
So it ends up being the ability to maintain and service the hardware. Having a TRUE MXM system would have been nice too, thanks Samsung. I am sitting happy and complacent for now other than the fact it is hard to recommend a new PC purchase other than those that just need and internet consumption device and/or to do basic office tasks..Last edited: Sep 23, 2016Ashtrix, TomJGX, hmscott and 1 other person like this. -
My biggest beef with BGA is CPU or GPU issues forcing expensive motherboard replacement instead of component level repairs, and too many of these systems locked out from real control over their performance tweaks. This therefore is the enemy of durability due to making repairs and upgrades much more difficult if not impossible. I would rather have a system last me longer without BGA than buying Apple inspired thin and light un-upgradeable crap. Sometimes you must stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. Please don't drink the BGA Koolaid. I HATE BGA for the above reasons. Rant mode off. This affects all PC users who value stable reliable hardware, and who wish to get the most out of an expensive machine purchase. Gamers, Content Creators and those who value maintainable, durable hardware thusly are affected. Give me PC hardware I can use the way I want, to the best of it's ability, and no locked out, hobbled BIOS or OS restriction crap! Otherwise, I will just keep on running the good old hardware for more years.
Apollo13, TBoneSan, Papusan and 1 other person like this. -
A second thought as a holdup to staying with older hardware is 4K displays. To get HDCP 2.2 for Ultra HD we need to go GTX 10xx and this means BGA for mobile Intel unless you get a monster with LGA. Almost makes thinking about a true desktop a thing to do.
I should note do long as you don't care about HDCP a GTX 780m will get you 4K display capability. Mt 675M will only do 3440x1440 on an external.Last edited: Sep 23, 2016 -
HDCP needs to die. It is annoying DRM technology put there to get in the way of legitimate users.
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I do not disagree but it is there. It is just one more reason to have too use newer forced hardware/software upgrades that are unnecessary. If you look at these threads you then realize no one in there right mind would upgrade to these technologies unless they have too.
Papusan likes this. -
I asked @Ethrem if he could change the thread title name to *BGA* and their limitations vs. LGA. Then he could sticked it!! No interest for this. Not a single reply back. He could just say *no* if he doesn't want do that in a reply backPGA is old. We have changed to LGA now. All people know what LGA means!!
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Perhaps @Ethrem has been busy and it slipped his mind. Don't take it personally bro, it happens sometimes. -
But as you say <people know more about the LGA now than the old PGA> And a lot of people don't know that LGA can be used in laptops. They think everything is BGA nowadays
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Back to topic
I tested [email protected] clock speed with my 6700K to see what bench score and power draw could be vs. fully locked mobile [email protected]. It looks like the soldered mobile i7 FILTH are not as energy efficient as some claimeIntel want more $$$ for their mobile i7 but offer less aka no TIM and IHS.
Wiping out the the 6700BGA bench scores on Hwbot with same clock speed. Wprime 1024M maxed out at 31.1W and max 33C degrees. Best Wprime scores for [email protected] in Hwbot (206,273 sec and 6sec 745ms) was smashed in a jiffyhttp://hwbot.org/hardware/processor/core_i7_6700hq/ The result can be seen in pict.
Wprime 1024M maxed out at 31.1W in Cpu package power
Cinebench R15 maxed out at 28.1W in Cpu package power.
See http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...6-owners-lounge.797458/page-201#post-10424577
Awful readinghttp://imgur.com/a/e8Ius
WHY PAY MORE FOR LESS?Last edited: Jan 5, 2017Kent T, Ashtrix, TBoneSan and 1 other person like this. -
Bump this informative thread so new forum users can easily find it.
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Facts: BGA= Soldered surface mount CPU. If it gets hot under load or demanding tasks. The solder joints on said surface mount CPU crack with the heat and cooling cycles aka expansion and thermal contraction. BGA= Sorry, you're screwed. New motherboard please. Assuming you can get one for your machine from the manufacturer at any cost.
BGA= The enemy of common sense on a performance machine, the enemy of repairable and upgradeable. Not acceptable on an expensive performance laptop of any kind, not just gaming machines either, those who do any kind of audio creation or video editing, CAD/CAM users, and all enthusiasts do not need the feces called BGA and it's brothers Thin and Light.
I am an electronics technician. BGA and SMD are my enemies. I HATE BGA. I rest my case. I just told you the reasons why. Many people can't or don't want to replace machines so often. Many must make do for a few years. Also, hobbled BIOSes are also thy enemies. As they limit our ability to tweak and optimize our machines to their best.
Remember too, friends. Heat and excessive amounts of it, are the enemy of electronics when you need reliable and long lasting. Keep those machines cool. They run better and throttle less.TBoneSan, Papusan, hmscott and 1 other person like this. -
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At least it is a solid foundation as a starting point. No amount of money, time or effort can make a BGA turdbook acceptable. Ever. Better to pay a lot for something with potential than waste money on a disposable piece of garbage that cannot be fixed.
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Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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MSI does it right, finds the sweetspot and makes the cooling sufficient and balances the entire system. They understand that there are limits to the formfactor and acceptable temps, at least on their higher specced systems. Wasting 5k USD on a machine that can never hope to achieve the same results as a ~1.2K USD desktop is laughable. And before anyone thinks I'm saying that a 5K USD MSI machine is acceptable, no it isn't. Anything beyond a 1070 is 95% of the times brutally overpriced and shouldn't ever get bought in the first place.
LGA turdbooks or BGA turdbooks with completey insufficient cooling deserve the just dissapear from the market. I'd be so happy if companies would finally drop the idea of pumping ridicolous hardware into a notebook and instead get good hardware and optimize their systems instead.
But I'll make my point clear:
MSI BGA Dominator 7700HQ with 1070 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8700K 1080SLI Clevo.
Yes, the MSI has a really really mediocore chasis, but you get good speakers, much better software, much better support, much less noise, better cooling, good temps, smaller PSU, less SLI issues with games that don't support it etc.
If anyone actually gets to the point where he actually cares about the differences between a 8700K and a 7700HQ then a Micro ITX Build Xeon build with 32+ cores will smash the crap out of the 8700K. I don't see the reason for the existance of those LGA notebooks, especially since people don't even get upgradability to another series without modding. Anyone with an ivy bridge CPU and MXM port will have pretty much the same performance in gaming as a 8700K +1070 when they upgrade their 3920XM notebook to a 1070 MXM GPU.
So in a nutshell, both the LGA and BGA are both crap thanks to piss poor design and terrible build. If clevo would at least come up with some kind of actual solution where the noise and the heat is acceptable, nobody would complain, but nope, still the same garbage.Dr. AMK likes this. -
My P870 Clevo speakers work fantastic and sound excellent. Don't know what the speakers are like on other Clevo models, and I don't care. Doesn't affect me. If they are no good, then people should not buy it. Not my problem.
I don't like any OEM software (it's all bloatware trash in my opinion, including Clevo and MSI,) and I don't have any issue with the fit and finish of the Clevos I have owned. The stuff I do on purpose would void the warranty with most OEMs, so I do not count their support as being all that important. I would only buy only from a boutique company like HIDevolution, that supports hardware mods instead of looking for lame excuses to shirk their duties under the hardware warranty.
Yes, sloppy Clevo heat sinks is a problem. So is cancer firmware among all brands, along with the other engineering defects notebooks have become famous for. I am not willing to become part of the problem by stooping to the point of purchasing a BGA turdbook no matter how well it overclocks. I just refuse to participate in the damnation of this niche market by purging my conscience and allowing room for any compromise with disposable BGA garbage. It's a matter of principle and I will not compromise with retards that manufacture turdbooks. I derive no benefit from it, so why bother? All it does it keeps their doors open and lights on, and honestly, I do not care if any of them survive since they sell nothing of interest to me.Last edited: Mar 13, 2018 -
Not talking about OEM bloatware, talking about actual needed software such as CCC, SB XFI software etc. It's all garbage.
Also BGA notebooks are only turds if they have thermal throttling issues due to ****ty heatsink designs like clevo notebooks, or terrible BIOS, power management etc. Hell I would argue that if it wasn't for Prema, Clevo LGAbooks would be as garbage as BGA with terrible design.Dr. AMK likes this. -
@FalkentyneMaybe you can give out some information to Danishblunt? Seems he can't find the MSI posts.
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I do not like having stuff like CCC, SB XFI and Dragon Center installed. They serve a purpose for the folks that have need of them, but overall my systems work better without them. They carry enough bloat to diminish the value of the features they support. But, they are easy enough to install or remove, based on individual preference, that it doesn't warrant a lot of discussion.Last edited: Mar 13, 2018tilleroftheearth, Ashtrix, ole!!! and 3 others like this. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
And danishblunt has me on ignore. And he ignores all the MSI threads. Otherwise his lie of 5.2 ghz 1.270v STABLE on a BGA throttlebook would be shown for ALL to see as a LIE and PHOTOCHOP EDIT WORK!!!!!! He can mod his own EC and bypass the SHA-1 and SHA-256 checksums?? THATS PLURAL. CHECKSUMS. NOT CHECKSUM. Svet can't do it. @Prema has had many bricks before he could do it. Yet Danishblunt can do it but doesn't know where PIN-1 is on a PLCC clip ??????????????????ole!!!, Dr. AMK, Papusan and 1 other person like this. -
Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
This is what happens if you try to DISABLE NOS in a MSI Throttlebook.
You either get BD PROCHOT (see the prochot thread) or THIS if you have an unlocked SKU:
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Falkentyne Notebook Prophet
You aint seen nothing yet, brother.
That screenshot was a 150W TDP GTX 1070, if you exceed 160W NOS limit and NOS is disabled (power flag "41" in EC RAM register C6 means NOS is disabled).
You want to see a 195W TDP GTX 1070 when NOS is disabled? Try not to vomit please.
Ashtrix, Dr. AMK, Papusan and 1 other person like this. -
...and reminding themselves that they have nice keyboards and audio features.
I only got this far because the observed behavior is (sadly) expected.
I have grown numb to it. Status quo.
Last edited: Mar 13, 2018Ashtrix, ole!!!, cj_miranda23 and 3 others like this. -
Last edited: Mar 13, 2018Ashtrix, ole!!!, cj_miranda23 and 2 others like this. -
Let's be honest - there's no make that could be 100% role model for every else.Ashtrix, ole!!!, Mr. Fox and 1 other person like this. -
Ashtrix, ole!!!, Papusan and 1 other person like this.
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I respect all opinions. The fight between BGA/LGA needs to be continued to keep the balance, even if it repeated everywhere. We can't live without both of them somehow, and I hope that the DTR will not be dead anytime soon. I convinced most of my friends now (Designers, Developers, Engineers...etc) to switch to DTR to get the performance they need, you can't imagine how many times they are thanking me that I changed their working lives to be better from BGA to LGA.
In the same time all my family members and other friends (normal users) I advised them to use some good BGA laptops especially from MSI and some Alienware models, and they are happy as well.
I hope to update this thread with all Clevo LGA/BGA NEWS and market performance, this will give us who is really winning and give us chance to decide our coming purchases better, let us see what will Clevo bring to us from the new models and new inventions.Last edited: Mar 14, 2018Mr. Fox likes this. -
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I won't state that every MSI notebook is good. There are ones where I wonder what the hell happened, but anything with a GT in front of it, is basicially the perfect notebook. Extremely good sound, extremely good screen, Keyboard is the best on a notebook, Cooling is tight and sufficient, support from MSI unlike other companies is brilliant, always getting software, useful BIOS updates, hell even vBIOS updates software updates etc.
Hell anything related to clevo is a god damn nightmare, software and drivers are a disaster, rarely if ever updated, BIOS is something we have 3rd party for because apparently clevo doens't care enough, heatsinks etc. are janky af, Sound quality is terrible, Keyboards are a joke, Screens are, mediocre on 1080p levels, the 4K screens are excellent, however rather meh for gaming. If it wasn't for Prema, Clevo wouuld be considered a disaster in this forum. -
Also the experience you get with Clevo is utter garbage. Thanks to the trashy desktop CPU and the power management on these crappy clevos, performance is actually worse than other notebooks. Then again, most people here who buy the 8700K do not really do any hardcore gaming on it neither do they seem to care about their frames, but this is what you basicially get:
I don't know if Prema fixes this or if it's a hardware level problem. But I am not having this in any way shape or form. I don't want to spend ~5k dollars for a barely functioning machine, but then again we got lots of people who want to have a portable barely function bragbook that on paper sounds great but in reality is nothing short of a mess.
The only game where the Clevo did better... or not. Was in CS:GO. Average FPS was higher but those min frames are nothing short of a disaster, especially for a CS:GO player. If you have a 120hz or 144hz monitor, those min frames really will piss you off.
But instead lets rave about the theoretical performance of the desktop CPU's in ntoebooks. yaaaaay
Just to demonstrate even further how pathethicly bad the performance is to a desktop:
This is mrfox old P870DM, with a 7700K OCed to 4.7ghz and 2 GTX 1080 in SLI. He has everything turned to max settings @ 1440p, except for hairworks which would kill his frames and this is the least demanding area in the game, there is almost nothing to render and no NPC's etc to eat up any ressources on the CPU. This notebook can be considered heavily modded, so this is basicially close to the max potential you can except:
Results?
Well, frames on least demanding scene in the game, around 75-85fpsish.
A PC:
1440p, everything maxed out including hairworks, which is insanely demanding, he even maxed out hairworks. Plays on much more demanding area. Same FPS.
Bottomline:
"Desktop" performance in a notebook = Joke.Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2018 -
Elitism at its best, buys socket LGA notebook, upgrades every year for that 2-6% performance (doesn't upgrade the socket cpu), wastes bandwidth and time on nbr... Sorry thats just my opinion.
@Danishblunt not all notebooks are the same, this is like comparing a founders edition with an asus strix.Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2018Dr. AMK likes this. -
Also most MSI laptops have very weak chassis, very bad backlight bleeding due to weak lid, significant throttling (1070 can go down to 1060) and horrible cooling, I have yet to see one MSI lappy with good rigidity, just checkout notebookcheck on every review.Dr. AMK likes this. -
Marionette doll fits very well in the ugly BGA world.
Yeah, MSI have better cooling (sarcasm). And I can see @Danishblunt continue talk exactly as before. Aka with huge lack of tech knowledge. None can take he serious if you talk with him about tech!!
Last edited: Mar 14, 2018Ashtrix, Dr. AMK, cj_miranda23 and 2 others like this. -
Most of these replies are jokes and brags, they can be useful for uplifiting reasons, but not everyone on this forum needs or sports a bga, it almost feels like spamming.
I have yet to see a good reason for bga other than 2-5% performance increase. (without heavy modding like above, as time = money for some)Dr. AMK likes this. -
Two things we can count on...
- LGA elitists will never stop explaining why BGA garbage is inferior
- BGA suckers will never stop complaining about their broken garbage and the plethora of problems they have
One thing many of us can agree on is that the notebook market is dominated by trash that is broken, OEMs/ODMs that build them are all incompetent and take no pride in anything except for the craftiness of their marketing hype.
The notebook-hating trolls in forums like overclock.net are more right today than they ever have been, thanks to the progression of incompetence in notebook engineering. -
Also there is no flawless notebook. Msi does however have the notebooks with the least flaws. Again only talking about the gt series which i mentioned already. Yes the chasis quality even on the gt series is mediocre at best especially compared to the likes of alienware but that is still a much better tradeoff than crappy cooling, garbage keyboard, garbage driver support, garbage software etc.Tmash likes this. -
Current Cinebench R15 numbers from Papusan's LGA Camp.
42x - 954cb
43x - 976cb
44x - 999cb
45x - 1019cb
46x - 1040cb vs. MSI BGABOOK with unlocked current gen i7 trash. Same 46x...
47x - 1064cb
48x - 1080cb
49x - 1102cb
51x - 1138cb
Expect run one bin higher clocks if you shall perform equal with same clocks on BGA hardware.
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Anyways glad to have someone with constructive contrast in this thread instead of fanboysim about spending 2 months on getting 1138cb on top of an air conditioner and calling bga is crap even though its just a socket, soon: How to apply for LGA religion
@Papusan you need to use google ads as well to preach it, why not start a patreon?Mr. Fox likes this. -
Now we get LGA notebooks with ****ty keyboards, crappy software/drivers, terrible temps and a price where people would legit be worried about their bank account. Same issues since 2012, twice the price for the privelage of having the ability to brag about a socketed LGAbook.
As mr.fox already pointed out, LGA elitiest will never stop trying to explain that 5% performance difference is important and worth having a portable furnace and BGA people will never stop trying to justify GTX 1070 hardware in a tiny case with mini fans throttling the hell out of anything, while normal people shake their heads wondering why everyone is missing the point of a notebook.skandal likes this. -
Ashtrix, 0lok, Mr. Fox and 1 other person like this.
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I also hear many mobo failures lately but limited to certain models. (also issues like battery has to be 50+% in order for the gpu and cpu not throttle, which questions longevity)
Would be amazing if mods dedicate a thread for LGA fanboysim or any non constructive arguments, as I have yet to see one thread without this spam, what adblock will never solve.Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2018Mr. Fox likes this. -
Dno the temps were actually rather good on GT 70 2QD but then again I had the revamped heatsink version (CPU under stresstest ~90c, gaming 75-80, GPU 75-80c). I agree that the original version of the heatsink with hardware like 780M is TERRIBLE.It had some issues with the heatpipe that it actually messed up the vapiration point. It would sometimes just work in reverse, instead of transfering the heat from GPU to heatsink it would do nothing.
The only thing that really really pissed me off was that the GT 70 2QD had much better thermals than my P157SM on stock despite using 1 f****ing fan. You have no idea how much that pissed me off.
Not saying that the GT 70 cooling was magnificent, it had it's odd issues, however MSI fixed it with their GT 72 series, that revamp of the cooling system was just insanely good.
Just to give an idea on how much better the MSI cooling is in that machine:
4700MQ, 16GB RAM and GTX 980M on youtube etc. on a stock P177SM-A was louder than me playing dota 2 on my GT 72 with 6700HQ, 16GB RAM and GTX 980M. When playing dota 2 on the P177SM-A, same settings mind you, the thing is so insanely loud that using headset is a must.
Temps on my repasted GT 72 are 65c on CPU and 71c on GPU, while playing on Dota 2 105FPS (Oced IPS Panel),
meanwhile
the P177SM sports an amazing 83c temps on CPU and 87c on GPU on 60FPS, yes, also repasted, not modded. Panel wouldn't go past 64hz so I kinda gave up on the idea of OCing it alltogether.
Currently I'm fighting the somewhat terrible fan profiles on my P375SM-A, while having fixed everything else. The list of things I've fixed are:
- GPU heatsink got modded.
- Repasted everything
- Completely removed stock Clevo center and used a modded version, still no acceptable fan profiles, trying an XMG version which indeed seems to be a slight improvement, still not optimal.
- Removed the XFI software and made my own custom drivers, which stomped the living crap out of the crappy XFI software which made the system actually sound pretty good.
- Trying to find optimal voltages for my 4940MX etc. it seems to be different than on my P157sm (I suppose better mosfets and voltage control)Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2018Tmash likes this. -
, fixed it with xmg bios and xtu-less CCC as usual, a trade off that is acceptable for me for now, as hardware issues are irreversible (the msi ge63).
PS: Agreed about the p870dm keyboard, its like tablet typing. Love the steelseries keyboard on msi and the current on p650 which has a sheet of metal on the bottom and doesn't flex, keys need medium force but tactile when depressed.Last edited by a moderator: Mar 14, 2018 -
To me what really made me hate the P650 series was the god awful keyboard, the useless god awful speakers and generally it feels really mediocre. The display has very nice brightness and can be used outdoors however the actual image quality is meh and backlight bleed was severe, but then again you really don't notice backlight bleeding anyways, so who cares. The notebook is ok at everything and isn't terrible at anything (maybe except for the 2 points mentioned, personally those were really garbage)
I would advise you to just go in a store that has a GT 72 Dominator model around. Try it out, play some music on it, watch videos, write a little text on the steelseries keyboard. It will completely blow your mind, your P650 will seem like garbage compared to it. It also has a mux switch, is insanely quiet under gaming for a gaming notebook. It's a damn near perfect notebook. The only complaint I would have against the GT 72 dominator is actually that the screen is way to flexworthy. It doesn't really bother me in any way shape or form, but it's defnitely not a strong point.
I've sadly never had a GT75 notebook but I'm sure @Phoenix can tell you how friggn amazing that thing is. As far as I can tell it's a high end version of a GT 72 notebook with optimizations here and there, so I'll assume it's even better experience.
BGA vs PGA continuation
Discussion in 'Hardware Components and Aftermarket Upgrades' started by Papusan, May 6, 2015.