How do you want your next laptop to be built?

I know what you mean Both my children was forced to buy L450 when they was on school. I gave up after one day testing it. But I'm probably too old learning how to use it Almost same sick design as AcerBook Triton 700

 

A friend living with me has one of those (the L450), I have no idea how the use it with any speed, there's a weird acceleration on it that seems like it's partly based on pressure and partly based on how long you hold it, so it either takes me forever to select anything or I overshoot it and go right to the edge of the screen.

 

Trackpoint really grows on you once you master it - for some to a point they don't want another laptop without it.

 

Yes, I know some people here in the community and at work that really like it. I've never been able to happily tolerate it, even after forcing myself to use it for more than a month it still made we want to cuss. I find it to be a very awkward and imprecise way of cursor control. I also dislike using all touchpads, clickpad and touch display input. The no-button clickpads like Dell and Apple have on their notebooks is the worst of the worst. I find using them to be absolutely infuriating, about the same or even a little worse than Trackpoint. I won't use the clickpad on my wife's XPS 15 without a mouse for even a few minutes. She is used to it and doesn't have a problem with it.

 

How do you feel about trackball? I'v heard it's good for some precision tasks, though not so much for general OS use.

 

I'm too old for this And I don't like (hate) small notebooks. Same with touch screen... It's great learning something new, but not this.

 

I had an old Compaq laptop with a trackball made into the palm rest and never cared for that. I also used to own one of those Logitech Trackman trackball mouse things and never was able to like it. I used it for about 6 weeks, eventually tossing it into a drawer with other unused computer stuff. After a couple of years I threw all of it into the garbage. The trackball requires a lot of lost movement. Touchpads do to a lesser extent. I just prefer using a real mouse and being able to move the cursor as far as necessary with one graceful and uninterrupted movement (assuming the mouse has enough free space to run wild and free).

 

you know what i find ridiculous is, these extra added gadget, feature or hardware seems nice and all but they arent essential to power users like us. simply put people are okay with navigating slowly with trackpoint or touch input and thats the exact goal of OEM along with their stupid default installed apps on their laptop brand.

people get use to it, either to the added software/hardware, and dont wanna bother to learn or change, thats their goal/target to continue suck in and retain customer.

 

FWIW trackpoint is the only mouse input device that can be used without removing one of your hands from the keyboard's home row - which any mouse, trackball, trackpad/touchpad/clickpad/whatever-you-call-it all require... So, if you type and especially edit text a lot, it is an actual productivity tool - alongside quality keyboard. Just saying...

 

I can still remember having to get used to a mouse and navigating entirely by keyboard using tab, arrows and key combos like Alt+F, Ctrl+End, PgDn, etc. That was the fastest way to navigate, and still is for the software that supports it. More and more software is getting dumbed down into crappy smartphone app trash for PC. Even gaming 100% by keyboard was better in many ways. For the most part, using a gamepad controller sucks compared to keyboard and mouse... Slower and not as precise. Feels more like something from Fisher-Price or Hasbro than a precision high-tech device.

 

or maybe it's the customer that's becoming more stupid

 

Yeah, I believe that is 100% accurate. It is actually quite obvious to some of us and requires no speculation.

 

Never had one myself, but a lot of people I went to school with swore by them. The trackman is the hybrid mouse with a trackball embedded in it, right? Seems like a compromise that wouldn't really be as good as either.

 

It's not a mouse at all. At least the one I had was not. It stayed in one place and you used the red ball surface for cursor movement. There may be another product that I am not familiar with that works like a mouse with a trackball on top. That was a long time ago (like 2006 or 2007) so it may be different now.

 

Ah, OK, then that's the one I'm used to. I swear I've seen one that you could move like a mouse or stop and use the trackball, but I can't remember the brand or where I saw it, assumed it was Logitech.

 

Or maybe they haven't got time to learn keyboard shortcuts and are busy working for a living...

 

I've had jobs where keyboard shortcuts were almost essential, so I wouldn't necessarily imply those are mutually exclusive.

 

I saw one of those on the internets, it was DIY. Would love to get one - or maybe build one myself - someday. At home, I prefer a sofa/rocking armchair & trackpoint over table & mouse, or those small tables to put the laptop and/or mouse on - unless I absolutely need a mouse, of course - kinda destroys all the incentive to invest in mice.

 

DIY stuff is the best. I recall an interface that someone made out of a Kinect that made it so you could talk to and gesture at your computer in addition to a mouse, though I haven't heard much on that sort of thing lately.

 

I often hear from my staff and business associates that they are too busy to learn how to do their job the easier way. Apparently, some folks seem to prefer working harder more than working smarter. I even had one person tell me using Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V to copy/paste and Alt+Tab to cycle through open applications was too cumbersome, LOL. As, the old saying goes... you can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink.

 

But of course! A righteous computer user will rely on logically justified Ctrl+Insert for Copy, Shift+Insert for Paste, Ctrl+Win+number to switch between most used programs pinned to taskbar - and Win-Tab for everything else! =p

p.s. sorry, couldn't resist. (=

 

My existing laptop is showing signs of old-age, I'm most likely going down the path of building my own desktop. Alienware have gone to sleep over the past 4 years, and no way am I going down the soldered path of its competitors. Socketed choice for me all the way, for what its worth

 

This is exactly what I did, initially I had laptops because I didn't want to take up the space with a desktop & I didn't want the complication of building my own desktop, but when I realised that I only used my laptop like a desktop I realised a desktop was the way to go - it's fun to build your own too!

 

That's most likely where I am headed, too. Hardware upgrades are super easy and cheap. There is less stupid performance gimping crap going on as well. Seems like a contest now which OEM can gimp their laptop crap the most and still find suckers willing to buy their trash for more than what it is worth. Since I do not travel much for business any more, portability is becoming a non-issue. The laptops I already have are good enough for crazy good performance on the go for at least 4 or 5 more years, or until they die, whichever comes first. Isolation from the family also used to be a concern, but since we moved I no longer have an upstairs home office. My home office has French doors that open up to the living room.

 

True that, but I can see you going LN2 to try & get super good benchmark scores - more competition in the desktop space I imagine! Then you'll need a lab/dungeon to run your mist & smoke creating rig - can't have that spilling into the living room! ;-) Joking aside though, there is a lot more room for tweaking: Step 1 choosing the right mix of parts (choose case wisely for airflow!), Step 2: assembly, Step 3: tweaking of all manners CPU/GPU/RAM related including case fan configurations & speeds, case modding for better airflow (incl. more fans or less fans, testing?!) - it's all fun!

 

Open air bench would be what I would go with. Either like this one, or a flat type (not angled).

http://www.performance-pcs.com/primochill-praxis-wetbench-black-yellow.html#Specifications

 

Indeed! I've spent most of last and this weekend just trying to decide on which desktop case to go for, and trying to justify to Mrs Yeti the need for a 2nd 1080

My mind is pretty much made up, I've built my own desktops before and looking forward to a new project. Besides, never tinkered with liquid cooling before. Will be fun!

 

Not LN2, air or (water cooling cpu) but phase change cooling - hardware running max oc'd 24/7/365. Either home build or similar as the link. But I will see what's coming up from Clevo first. I don't trust MSI coming with proper LGA/MXM laptops.

 

Phase Change hey, off to work now, will look at that later to see if I can understand Phase Change!

 

That would be ideal. I also do not trust MSI... way too much gimping crap on their part. They remind me of Alienware in this respect. I won't put up with their stupidity.

it is basically a refridgerator that uses a freezing cold block (literally) in direct contact with the CPU. It has a compressor, evaporator and uses refrigerant just like an air conditioner or refidgerator/freezer. Really awesome. The only downside is that it is very expensive.

 

Not enough cooling power for the i9-7980XE?, needs 400w stock, 800w-1000w OC'd...

"Phase Change:
Hetload which can hold:
300W at -30°c on Evaporator Head "

And, the USA qualified model is a tad more expensive, with the same 300w maximum heat load:

LD PC-V10 115V USA Phase Change - Black
http://www.ldcooling.com/shop/ld-pc-v10-115v-usa/87-ld-pc-v10-115v-usa-phase-change.html

 

I'm with you 100%, I understand that analogy, I know how refrigerators work, that sounds very effective!

 

I'm sure the results will work well. We don't talk about LN2 Clocks.
http://www.legitreviews.com/intel-core-i9-7980xe-18-core-processor-review_197903

 

Thanks for posting that, it was a interesting video. Pity the PC is noisy, well that's what Linus said towards the end. Impressive CPU temperatures, but if phase change is noisy it's not worth it - at least with liquid cooling the extra effort results in some low temperatures & low noise if done right.

 

Seems like something that would work well for a behind the wall setup. I've seen some basement/mancave rigs where the actual box was in a laundry room and the display/kb/mouse/etc were in the main room. Then there would be no need to worry about noise.

 

Ha, that was one argument that a Vega fan was using recently!

 

Of course I don't want to make it sound like that's an end all for noise problems, but more for sort of min/maxing. Putting it behind a wall allows you to just completely ignore noise limitations and focus on performance so you can get something that's pretty loud with little or no impact on the experience of using it.

 

Overclocking, bruh And I would change that radiator fan with a more powerful Delta model

 

That was the first video on phase change cooling I ever saw when I started looking at that option a couple of years ago, and it's a good one. I typically enjoy his stuff, but I have to say that Linus defines many things different that some of us do. Remember, this clown thinks Razer notebooks are good, LOL. I am not sure his definition of noise would fit some of ours and I suspect that it is not any more noisy than a big laptop with fans maxed out and a U3 cooler with three 120MM fans running full blast (which I do not consider loud). Refrigerators are not particularly loud unless the compressor is failing, and it would be pretty miserable listening to a rattling compressor.

I could be wrong and it might be ridiculously noisy, but all I am saying is I certainly would not take his word for it on face value based on other things I see from Linus that don't line up with my perspective on things. If it was really overly loud and obnoxious, that should have been exposed with something more than a nonchalant passing comment as part of the video IMHO. Some people consider a computer to be noisy if they can hear it at all. I don't mind being able to hear it as long as I can have a normal conversation without having to raise my voice to compete with the sound coming from it. Otherwise, I don't care if it is silent or not... not very important to me. Silence might be really important to Linus, which could skew his perspective without some context to defines what constitutes "noisy" by his definition.

In the same breath as his passing comment about noise he also mentions heat getting dumped into the room. That would actually concern me as much or more than noise.

A good second option to phase change cooling is using a chilled water loop, but I suspect there is at least a little bit of sound coming form the chiller because it also uses a refrigeration system with a small compressor to make the water cold. I know @Johnksss@iBUYPOWER uses chilled water and it is very effective.

 

Why stop there? Just mate up a leaf blower intake to it.

 

This is one place where I would definitely question the practicality, in a typical A/C unit the radiator and fan are on the outside of the house. You're dumping heat into a practically unlimited system. If you had this thing connected to an outside compressor I can see my way to that a little better. But indoors, you'd need extra ventilation/air movement for it not to get uncomfortable.

 

Yup!

Hey, I'm staying with air cooling until my next build where I'll consider all options, although I can imagine that after some initial research my attention might not rest on phase change that long! Sub ambient is always gonna be some kind of hassle with condensation, etc, I would think - I've not looked into it, but I can imagine expense, impracticality for marginal gains, etc. I'll certainly look into it all as possible options for the next build. Silence is important to me - one of the luxuries of a desktop & I see it as a no brainer not to exploit that potential for an extremely potent yet quiet machine.

 

I went dual AIO and it's pretty quiet, (H011i for CPU and MSI Sea Hawk for GPU). I'm told dual Krakens is quieter since you can have 240mm radiators on both CPU and GPU and work the fans less so I might do that. Don't think I'll bother with a res/pump loop, I need easy/modular more than I need pretty.

 

A chilled water loop is probably extremely good (not quite as great as sub-zero, but as low as 4°C-10°C CPU and GPU temps is still awesome) compared to ordinary liquid cooling and a lot less expensive than phase change. My next desktop will be an open-air bench, so pulling the water block off and adding a dice pot or LN2 for the crazy stuff on weekends would not be much hassle. I'd still love to have phase change though, just for the craziness of the whole shebang.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/hot-...hp-790watt-cooling-capacity-waterchiller.html

https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cooling/hailea-hc-500a-water-chiller-review/1/

 

That's...really cool. And it looks like it can integrate into an existing coolant loop? That would be a fun upgrade for an existing system.

 

Yes. That is exactly what Performance-PCS.com sells them for. I think it would be a pretty awesome setup.

 

unique contraindication, condensation .. Almost here in Italy, years ago when I try a second stage phase change (noise apart) the max room temp to not show condensation was up to 25°(77F) on 4930k at 1,45v (280w)

 

To add some words to the whole phase change/ Water cooling....

Phase change is one part while cascade is the other part of that. Phase change can get as low as -30C to -40C, while a cascade unit can hit -110C. LN2 can hit -190C. And for the record. LN2 is hella noisy. Just like Dry Ice is at -72C.

The bigger the compressor the longer you can hold a -temp with say using R507A. Or you can mix certain gases to get a very nice blend, but if you do not have the tools to do this or let alone fix it when it breaks. You will be out a very large amount of cash when you have to ship it back to be repaired. No normal AC guy can repair this and have it working the same way you bought it. Why? Because they go by the book when loading the gas and that is just not going to work on this type of setup. So just remember that when it breaks down or starts leaking. The can do the hardware repair portion, but the gas side you would need to explain and hope they understand and get it right before they charge you an arm and a leg for wasting these expensive gases. I have my own tanks so that was never an issue for me. (Same with an LN2 tank and a very good relationship with Airgas for LN2)

Water chillers can range from 0 to -30C (if you home brew it or alter the thermostat on a store bought one.) They also can keep your temps low for a lot longer than a phase change unit can. If you overrun a Phase Change unit then you will need to shutdown the system and let the Phase Change unit cool back into the negative temp range. Then you can start back up. This also brings in condensation and more importantly than condensation is the ice quickly melting on top of your gear. This is why prep work is 100% Mandatory! The better the job the more water build up the board can handle and dissipate over blue shop towels.

My Water chiller barely ever runs and I have the temp set to 99F on a 5960X running at 4.5Ghz. It only has one pump and no add on radiators warming backup the water. The cpu is sitting at 40C right now. And pretty much stays around there for being on 24/7. So that means my water chiller is pretty silent for at least 95% of the time. Now.... When I use it for benching, then I drop the temps to 0 and it can handle the 5960X for quite a while allowing it to bench some what competitively with the water benching group, but a home brew setup will drop to -30C giving you basically a phase change unit that can run 24/7. At which point the noise level will climb exponentially and last for a very long time! Benching is in no way shape or form going to be quiet! So anyone not up for that should just run AIO blocks with very low noise fans. (Or stock noisey coolers)(For the record. I have 2 of those for testing new video cards and they work better than using the stock coolers)


Just some info on what to expect. And these are not from videos on the net, but my own personal experiences....

 

Thanks for that info, good to hear it from someone with direct experience. Sounds like a pain in the butt, but I guess worth it if you want to push to the extremes!