Pascal MXM GPU Upgrades

Yes MSI certainly do deserve a similar bashing. I do remember reading what Prema said about that and thanks for reminding me, Nvidia should really be at the top of the $#it list. Honestly there's a lot of ambiguity why this has happened and in my view the OEMs should still be accountable since they are selling the machines as up-gradable (at least MSI and Eurocom are).
If they fought hard for us, that really is great, hopefully it will bear fruit next cycle otherwise it would've been in vain, and a small but strong niche following will vanish from existence.
I don't doubt for a second this was a push from Nvidia, then OEMs raised the white flag and took the immediate path of least resistance because at the end of the day, they'll make bank.

 

nVidia is at the #1 for the list of people who need to be punched repeatedly until they begin crying.

As I said, I completely understand everyone's frustrations and pain, but I have to be reasonable to a certain degree here. Clevo never promised their machines were upgrade-able to Pascal (though I am certain they wanted them to be, honestly). Eurocom is a rebrander and MSI is an ODM/OEM, and I suppose they all got screwed by nVidia when they made the stupid push for Pascal. I still think as Mr. Fox said they could've used the 980 180W design for example, but I guess they had other reasons why they didn't. Either way, I'm not going to give them full blame right now, but I see basically this whole forum leaving MSI alone and claiming Clevo is the devil, and it's not fair.

I'm not specifically trying to say they're a saint, nor am I trying to say MSI is also the devil. I'm saying that fairness is what I'm after. Eurocom is not Clevo and their claims have no bearing on Clevo, as much as to an end-user it's infuriating. MSI and Clevo BOTH discarded previous designs of their cards... the 130W 980s, the 180W 980s, the 200W 980, the 150W 980... even 1060s which have a MXM-B reference from MSI cannot SLI, and thus cannot be used in GT80 for anything, because desktop 1060s cannot SLI. Everybody got shafted this time, ODMs, OEMs and Consumers alike. If they were capable of using MXM-B and did not, then my statements would be EXTREMELY different, as they were prior to Prema making the statement about the behind-the-scenes fight. I look at things from corporate and from consumer and I find a balance, and that's how my statements come up. I don't need corporate to make the bare minimum profit for us just so consumers are satisfied, but screwing us for profits like nVidia does is not acceptable either. There must be some balance somewhere.

Prema said he believes Clevo's non-standard design will become their new "standard", so Volta and later chips will keep it. I'll see how that one turns out. MSI... I have YET to find their GT80 upgrade promise, and they're doing damage control on the GT72 upgrade promise now, as people have found their "upgrade video" has been changed to "private" on youtube now, as well as other things. They're definitely not going to let that thing touch Volta.

 

Which is entirely possible since MXM is not an open specification like PCI Express. MXM-SIG is nVidia, and the MXM specifications are more or less nVidia proprietary.

 

I was just going to say that and I've said it multiple times before, people responded - so what, it's open and there are multiple members blablabla. Yep, tell me that again, I'm all ears.

Who is leaving MSi alone? I for one wait to see how they would respond, but I still said that they'll get their part of the **** storm if they don't deliver a few pages back. In the MSi subforum a class-action is cooking, which I can't see for Clevo. People are just frustrated at Clevo, but MSi would be taken accountable.

BTW Is there anyone left who is still in doubt about nGREEDIA's GREED and EVILNESS?

 

Exactly who is doubting them?

 

I don't know, that's why I asked.

 

weird ES, QS and just odd MXM quadros often trickle down to ebay at lower prices, for those of us in the "upgrade later" boat

 

Here is the latest word from MSI on the GT72/GT80 trade-in program:

http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...for-the-msi-rep-2.795226/page-3#post-10326270

We started a thread for GT72/GT80 owners to discuss the upgrades:

GT72/GT72S and GT80/GT80S Owners GPU Upgrade Discussion
http://forum.notebookreview.com/thr...0-gt80s-owners-gpu-upgrade-discussion.795236/

 

This wouldn't make any sense because the MSI GTX 1060 looks to be standard MXM 3.0b so they can definitely still use the reference design.

Wow this is amazing...doubt we'll see anything like this from Clevo.

 

Good on them taking care of their customer. Clevo should do something like this.

@Mr. Fox Fox @Papusan @D2 Ultima

Edit: I guess Clevo is under no obligations to do it since they didnt promise upgradable Pascal but meh...... consumers always gets screwed.

 

That might've been an allowance granted to them for something, or for a workstation unit. There aren't any 1070s or 1080s with that design, and 1060s cannot SLI and thus are pointless for GT80/P870DM/P37xSM/P37xSM-A/etc

 

What about people outside US? They are screewed? Not good enough bro. Read <Please note that this program is available in USA only. > They try the same **** as Dellienware with their 240w offer for the flimsy 180w psu. Dell changed afterwards, because people outside US was angry of this unfair offer.

 

Even MSI's 1070 SLI models are very similar to mxm 3.0b except they have a little tab to prevent use in older mxm 3.0b laptops.

AMD's Polaris mobile GPU is apparently going to be mxm 3.0b as well...there's definitely more to this than a simple legal issue with the design.

 

How and why nGREEDIAs are not standard MXM, would be a mystery for a while. Maybe AMD as a partner still has right to use MXM, while nGREEDIA rejected it for "the greater good"? I don't know. Let's see if we'll get that Polaris (10) MXM-B in first place.

WOW, that's a MASSIVE blow from MSi! C'mon the rest of the world, sue their @$$!!! EU's court should be involved as I don't know if anyone else (as in country) could pull a class-action.

 

Well, out of sympathy for your situation I participated in the poll, choosing the first response. As an M18x R2 owner who was just fortunate enough to upgrade from 680M to 980M I am fully aware of the importance of being able to upgrade an expensive system. I would be extremely upset if I purchased a $4k DTR whose manufacturer continued to sell them right up until the point of announcing that "hey, by the way, you can't upgrade your GPU's in the laptop you purchased a month too early, thanks for your $4k though!"

I truly don't understand the reason these exorbitantly expensive laptops don't have a component upgrade path in most cases except to chalk it all up to Corporate Greed, plain and simple.

Hey Alienware, Nvidia, Clevo and Sager, a large and growing contingent of your consumer-base CAN'T AFFORD A NEW $4K SYSTEM EVERY 3 YEARS. Either offer an upgrade path or your business model is DONE. (at least you could continue to sell individual components vs. selling zero new systems).

Americans, myself included, ARE BROKE.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lostgenera...o_so_many_journalists_fail_to_grasp_the_fact/

63% of American's don't have $500 on hand for an emergency auto repair or a trip to the emergency room:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/maggiem...have-enough-savings-to-cover-a-500-emergency/

Who are they marketing these things to?

 

No, it's not.

The reason is us.

We've demanded desktop levels of performance in notebooks. Well, that's exactly what nVidia are giving us with the GTX 10 series. What we (most of us anyway) missed is that desktop levels of performance requires desktop levels of power and that MXM 3.0b is physically incapable of delivering that power.

 

That's the 'official PR' story.

 

Exactly. MXM 3.0B is rated for 200W

 

MXM 3.0b spec says 100W. In practice it can provide around 125W or so. It cannot provide the 180W that GTX 1080 needs without auxiliary power which our legacy notebooks do not have.

 

The 150W Quadro M5500 shows a desktop 980 could have been possible on mxm 3.0b without auxiliary power. Desktop 1080 should use less power than 980 but it seems to be the other way around.

Either way 1070 should have been able to be mxm 3.0b.

 

MSI's own Quadro M5500 is a full GM204 with a 150W TGP (slower, lower voltage vRAM compared to 980) and comes in MXM 3.xb format.

It's not that NVIDIA didn't allow ODMs to do b-shaped cards, it's that they stopped providing reference board designs for them.

Clevo is using a single board design for all their mobile Pascal cards due to cost factors of designing them.

TBH, they should have only given the 1080 a special treatment (update MXM spec to 3.2 for up to 300W cards, going all digital output and adding a c-shape format).
1060 & 1070 should have remained in old school b-formats, while being called 1070M and 1080M and let the 1070 (1080M) use the same cores as desktop cards to reduce TGP slightly.

I feel that would have made A LOT of sense, UNLESS Volta can no longer use MXM at all...

EDIT:

Before you freak out about my Volta comment. No I don't know the future, that's just me sitting in 36c and being bored)

 

It most certainly can. Khenglish on T|I transposed a GTX 980 core onto a GTX 980M, and the full card was unlocked. In a P150EM. He was able to overclock it. MXM can supply easily 150W or larger.

Also, a desktop 1080 should use less power under heavy load than a 980, even if only slightly. It's just rated higher I think.

*sigh* so... it's not a legal thing. They just didn't want to.

Now this is conflicting to me. If it were a legal issue, then I'd put the blame on nVidia. But it isn't a legal issue, and Clevo COULD have made MXM 3 design cards, and so could MSI. This means they honestly just didn't. In which case they deserve much of the venom people have been spouting at them, though less Clevo because they never promised upgrades to people and it was just assumed.

*sigh* I'm liking this industry less and less these days. After picking apart MSI's GS43VR disaster where heatpipes from the GPU are running over the PCH and Wifi card and touching the HDMI port and the card throttles lower than my 780M SLI can deliver even with all of that cooling, I'm just not really feeling this anymore.

 

GTX 1070 could be done in MXM 3.0b. This does not mean that it should have been done. I think nVidia made the correct choice. Sometimes you have to cut loose the legacy in order to move forward. That's what nVidia have done. No argument that it sucks to be in that legacy category but that's life.

 

No no. Cutting loose legacy to move FORWARD is one thing. nVidia have cut loose the legacy to stick with disposable BGA $1200 GPUs. THEY CAN DIE IN A FIRE. The only reason they're even being purchased is because AMD refuses to flipping compete.

 

Some PCIe boards are capable of delivering enough power to stable run RX 480.

 

If you mean 80W, yes some can, but not nearly all. If you mean the 192W it can use if you turn off power limits, nope.

 

The new mobile class 1080's are truly awe inspiring. No more "80% as fast but not really". These puppies are 100% as fast. Having already shot my load on the desktop in my sig with a hybrid cooled 980 Ti being pushed by a hex core 4930k at 4.5 GHZ it is indeed mind blowing to see something with 200% more GPU compute power in a chassis with 15% of the internal surface area:

http://www.kotaku.com.au/2016/08/what-a-gaming-laptop-decked-out-with-two-desktop-gpus-can-do/

 

Same is true for MXM. A few systems can deliver a stable 150W but not nearly all of them.

 

That more depends on if the motherboard can deliver the power to the MXM slot, rather than the MXM slot in itself. It's not the same with the PCI/e slots as far as I know, as they *CAN* provide the power but get burned out if they're not designed sturdily enough. On the other hand, MXM won't be burned out, but should simply crash or get power-starved if pushed too far.

It's like how the M17x R4 cannot provide over 68W to the CPU no matter what you do. The CPU can take it. The socket and chipset can take it. But that motherboard won't deliver any more power. Drop it in a M18x R2 and watch it suck 150W like a baby. Same deal with the AW18; the board will shut off if 400W+ is sent through it. Doesn't mean its MXM slots can't deliver that amount of power, etc. Mr. Fox has noted up to 200W pulled by his 4930MX alone in some benching scenarios in that system.

 

It is definitely not a matter of "can't" with MSI and Clevo. They intentionally chose the low road... a.k.a. the "let's screw everyone with MXM 3.0b" road. It's a lie that it was necessary due to power delivery. That would only be applicable to machines that were poorly engineered and gimped long before Pascal saw the light of day.

 

Following up on my last post here, fortunately for me having performance comparable to the latest flagship Asus notebook sporting GTX 1080 SLI is simply a matter of adding a second 980 Ti @ 1500 MHz and upgrading the PSU to a 1200W OR upgrading to 1080 Ti when finances and my living situation allows. Although I am enticed by the prospect of overclocked 980 Ti SLI performance, I prefer a single card system due to the growing trend of non-existent or poor SLI support, i.e.:

Titanfall 1 and 2

All OpenGL games to include Doom 2016

Fallout 4 and possibly Skyrim Remastered

Planetside 2

Dragon Age: Inquisition

Too many more to remember, ah yes, Starcraft 2.

The argument of simply setting the game to single card only isn't so simple. In my experience disabling the secondary card is required, which entails having to reboot, and if you play different games at once, say Planetside 2 with no sli support and then say Rise of the Tomb Raider this becomes tedious rather quickly. Add to all of this broken features in 3D Vision with certain titles like shaders breaking with SLI in The Witcher 3 all compound to make you eventually pull SLI out in favor of a faster single card which is exactly what I have done with both my desktop and DTR, moving from 780 Ti SLI to 980 Ti and 680M SLI to 980M respectively.

If you absolutely don't need the mobility just build a desktop already. Eventually the laptop industry will be forced to offer an upgrade path to remain relevant.

 

OK so im confused now, so we cant even use the 1080 after mods and such because of the MXM format being different?
@Prema @Mr. Fox

 

Yes, you can't
We check now few things by P870DM and who knows.

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I think it's because the MXM have extra pins being used for more data or something, dunno...

 

Nope, its the same. Found that out later.

 

Not data. MXM 3.0b offers the full 16x PCIe 3.0 bandwidth which is more than enough for GTX 1080. In fact, no single consumer video card can saturate that bandwidth.

No, the real reason is power. MXM 3.0b cannot provide the power that GTX 1080 requires.

 

MSI 1080 doesn't have any extra power connector which comes in GT83VR.

It's like they can just give us a lower TDP than the 1080N with proper 3.0b standard at a max loss of 5-15% give or take but..

 

I'm waiting on benches. It should be mentioned you are referring to MSI 1080N SLI cards, not the single cards which have a six pin and are wider...

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

Oh dang yep, The MSi's Solo cards are powered externally, You should have a look at GentechPC's MSIGT73VR (6 pin 1080) and GT83VR (no powerconnector SLI cards) I think they have the bench runs, If you didn't watch em yet..

Really all these MXM form factors and different TDP envelopes like the 980Ns add too much of confusion to the mix, They should really have made 2 cards while Nvidia dropped the form factor and make M and N versions but they have the high hand here

 

Well, what would help is if MSI and Clevo formed a joint venture to standardize the cards moving forward while offering companies that use them the cards at a higher cost while negating those companies needs for as much R&D. Asus will still go its own way, because that's Asus. Few others are not soldered at this point. But this would at least allow for uniformity and interchangeable parts between those left standing...

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So the GTX 1080 will not physically fit in the P870DM either?

So basically it's the same thing different connector? To screw over previous gen owners?

 

Yes. Apparently 1 hole aligns to secure the card. The power connector and EC bypass is the problem. It's still possible to do but not without getting your hands far dirtier than they need to be.

 

looks like it's duct tape time for you

 

Lol. Using duct tape would be the easy part. But having 1 screw alight would be enough however I don't have my 870DM anymore.

 

I'm surprised you found someone willing to buy that laptop in japan.

 

One of our forum members bought it. Yeah... it's a hard sell in Japan unless it's to a foreigner.

 

I saw yours on eBay (just checking if I recognized anyone selling on there). Glad you found someone!

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any news on the gtx 1060 mxm 3b?

 

Gtx 1060 from Clevo is the same format as gtx 1070/1080

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i think i saw a picture here of a standard mxm 3b gtx 1060 card on a msi laptop