*HP ENVY 17 & 17 3D (2XXX series) Owners Lounge*

This makes me think of an interesting idea..... Let's say someone was giving you an Envy 17 3D SB as a gift. All specs being equal, processor, graphics, etc... except the RAM and the SSD/HDD....which option will you choose, 1 or 2 and briefly, why would you choose that option? (I'm looking forward to seeing what the people in the know feel about this)


1. 8GB RAM with (800 GB Total) 160 GB SSD + 640 GB HDD @7200rpm

or

2. 16GB RAM with (1.5 TB Total) dual 640 GB HDD @ 7200rpm

KJ

 

My laptop is perfect, no flaws and seems very solid with no gaps and dents like most Envy's I've seen. The reason I'm mad at customer support is that I'm trying to order another one for a friend of mine, but even after around 10 cancellations and twice as many phonecalls, Dell just won't let me order, or give me a reason as to why. Last time I got so mad I yelled at them asking why the hell they make laptops if they won't sell them.

 

Personally, I would go with what I did...160/640 and 8 GB of Ram. Maybe down the road more ram will suffice...but with 8GB...I use about 17% resources on boot and none of my programs demand all 8 GB...but the SSD has made a difference...

 

But if you had 16 GB of ram and the dual 640 GB HDD @ 7200, is there any way that the 16 GB of system ram will get speeds close to the SSD with 8 GB of ram? What I'm asking is, how close in speeds with the systems be side by side?

KJ

 

Using synthetic benchmarks...I can state that my first Envy with just a 640 GB HDD and my new Envy with 160 SSD both scored 1855 with 3DMark 11. Now, with that said...Windows Experience score on the first machine was a 5.9, because HDD score was 5.9 while everything else was in the 7's. The new Envy gets a 7.2, where the slowest score is the AMD 6850 that only scores a 7.2. My SSD scores a 7.7 with SSD. The way I look at it...I can upgrade RAM later, when prices aren't so insanely high for two 8 GB chips. Price point, SSD is currently a better investment...does make a greater impact..."Right Now". When Windows 8 comes out and new versions of Adobe Photoshop and the like...having that much ram may change things.

I currently run 6 GB of Ram on my desktop...DDR3 1600 at 8-7-8-24. There are others on the EVGA boards who upgraded their memory to 12 GB and memory scores pretty much stayed the same. I get a 7.8 with my Corsair and they are getting the same with double the ram. Mind you the Win7 Experience score tops off at 7.9

One more thing to add: My SSD score in Win 7 is 7.7 On my desktop I get a 6.2 and that is running TWO Western Digital 300 GB VelociRaptors in RAID 0. My VelociRaptors are 10,000 rpm with avg seek time of 7.2 ms. Two laptop HDDS would at best be 7200 rpm with seek time of about 12-13ms. I don't think that two laptop HDD are gonna outweigh the SSD. VelociRaptors are the fastest SATA Enterprise drives for desktop without stepping up to SCSI. If they only score 6.2 then "perhaps" the two laptop drives "might" do a 6.1 if you push it.

 

Thanks for the explination. Good point about Window Indexing...I wish someone with the 16 GB ram would let us know the numbers, and also real time performance. Wonder who is going to get that deal....

KJ

 

I've heard a computer described as a librarian getting books from a library, putting them on a table, and then being able to read them.

CPU = librarian's reading speed
RAM = size of the table on which to place books (bigger table = more books open)
HDD/SDD = how far away the shelves are from the table (how long it takes to go get a book and bring it back to the table)

So, with 16GB ram, you have a huge freaking table. It'll hold more books that you'll ever need at a time. And that is it's downside, it's way more table than you'll ever need. 8GB ram, you still have a very large table, still probably more than you can use at a time.

However, the real difference is in the HDD/SDD. Having a SSD is like having the shelves be an arms length from where the librarian is standing at the table. A HDD is like having the shelves be downstairs, on the other end of the library. i.e. it takes a LONG time comparatively to get books this way, as opposed to the ssd.

So, in conclusion, get the ssd.

 

Caddy for second hard drive arrived today from newmodeus.com, took (only) 7 days to arrive to Paris, France.

Installed the HDD that came with the Envy (1 TB @ 5400 rpm), fits perfectly in the second HDD bay. Everything's smooth right now, everyone's interested in the SSD should go for it!

 

trucha, love your analogy! Lol...I suppose the best of both worlds would be to have the 16 GB ram with the SSD/HDD combo!

KJ

 

Right now, if I had the $500 to get the extra 8 GB of Ram...I would sink it into a SATA III SDD 256 GB SSD like the new Vertex 3 and go for the throughput...going from the 250/120 read speed of the Intel X25 to 550 / 500 of the Vertex will certainly make a bigger difference...

 

+1 on investing in the SSD instead of the RAM. Today's prices are just too high -- $170 more for 8GB on one stick versus two sticks. But the real question is how do your apps use memory and disk? For apps that write to disk all the time (like my Adobe lightroom catalog), adding more than 8GB RAM does absolutely nothing to system performance, but adding the SSD will.

To extend the library analogy: if the librarian is wired to retrieve and replace books from the shelves, expanding the size of the table doesn't do squat -- the librarian will still go to the shelves no matter how big the table is, and one is better off bringing the shelves closer. However, if the librarian is wired to retrieve and replace books from the table, and table space runs out, then a virtual table will appear in the shelves a long ways off. not good, unless that virtual table is an SSD, in which case it will not be in the shelves, but instead will be close to the table.

So -- when you have an SSD, the penalty for not having enough RAM is much smaller. The system will create virtual RAM via the SSD, which is slower, to be sure, but in many cases acceptable compared to virtual RAM on a piece of spinning aluminum.

Over the useful life of the laptop, I can see 8GB becoming short, but future proofing this now is just sooooo expensive. If future proofing beyond 8 GB is important, one could even save $60 and order up 6GB RAM, which would allow you to replace the "2" with an "8" later on for a total of 12.

 

...you lost me at "book"

Off topic: sorry if this was discussed already, but do you guys feel uncomfortable in the left handed area when playing demanding games?

 

I'm left handed. What exactly are you asking. I always remap my keys on the keyboard to fit my needs...

 

THX for the Info. I will give it a go today and build in a C300. I am very excited about the results even if I not in the mood to set up the OS again. Not sure if I should set up Win7 Ultimate instead of Home this time.

 

Updated AMD graphics drivers are now available for you owners! These are official packages provided by HP and contain switchable graphics support for the ENVY 17-2XXX.

Driver versions:

• 8.820.5.1000 (AMD graphics)
• 7.11.0.7706 (HDMI Audio)

Download (Windows 7 x64) - ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/softpaq/sp53001-53500/sp53274.exe

For more info as well as links to release notes, visit the NBR driver thread.

 

Hi, the AMD internal number for the new catalyst drivers (11.6) is 8.861 and not 8.820 :-/
Google says 8.820 is catalyst 11.1a based!?

 

Thanks! I'll check these out after work

 

Interesting. Installed them. 3D Mark11 scored 1855 with the old drivers and the new ones get 1855. Wonder what HP does to throttle the drivers. Cat 11.4 did 1953 for me a few months back8.820



OK...couple of things about new drivers 20

1. With switchable graphics....used to switch between AMD and Intel and the computer knew the proper refresh rates between the two cards. Intel refreshes at 60HZ and AMD did at 120HZ. New drivers broke that...so now AMD has to be reset to 120 by hand...if you are running 8.800.8.200 and they work...I wouldn't upgrade to the new HP versions until HP fixes the refresh issue
2. While the 8.820's were installed...I installed Catalyst 11.6 on top. First install was done with everything and Catalyst Control Center didn't work again. So uninstalled all drivers...reinstalled 8.80 and installed 11.6's again...did a custom and chose everything but CCC. Now I have the CCC from 8.820 and Catalyst 11.6 drivers (8.861). Like the new HP drivers...the refresh issue is broken, where when switching back to AMD card...you have to reset refresh to 120HZ by hand...BUT...look at 3D Mark 11 score....up over 120 points. Oh yeah...brightness keys work with HP drivers and not with AMD Catalyst 11.6

 

I gotta ask, I checked HP's driver page and I wonder which updates I should install, and then I saw you post a few pages back:

Should I install all of those? But the Hp on Screen display what is that, gosh newbie question.

 

Envy 17 3D now has option of up to 16GB RAM

16GB 1333MHz DDR3 System Memory (2 Dimm)

Is it a refresh of current 17 3D or our current SB 17 3D can take 16GB ?

When i bought it around March it had option of up to 8GB max.


According to Kingston website

Standard Memory: 4 GB (Removable) or
6 GB (Removable) or
8 GB (Removable)

Maximum Memory: 8 GB using a 64-bit Operating System
16 GB with release of 8GB module

 

Bobmitch,


i am trying to install newest drivers from amd, every time i try to download i get message

amd cataylst mobility cannot be downloaded due to incompatible hardware/software on your computer.

the version of graphics adapter is not supported

please contact your notebook manufacturer for a graphics driver update.

any thoughts?

 

I'm pretty sure you have to download the whole package vs the web installer.

 

You can download Catalyst 11.6 from here:

AMD Catalyst 11.6 WHQL (8.861 May 24) - Download & Discussion - Guru3D.com Forums

My recommendation...do not remove the old drivers to install these. Leave the HP drivers installed. Now run the installer..when you get to the install screen, choose Custom...then install everything BUT Catalyst Control Center. For some reason, when I do the install with CCC, I get an error message at the end of the install and CCC no longer works. Leave CCC unchecked and use the CCC from the HP version. Once install is done, you should be at Catalyst 11.6 (8.861) for drivers

 

Thanks bobmitch,


one more question, is the updates on hp's site for drivers the same from the websites (amd) for instance? they obviously dont have the newest being it was just released...

 

No! As stated by someone earlier...the new HP drivers are Catalyst 11.1a. The driver naming scheme for AMD is that the year and month are the Catalyst versions. The new AMD drivers are 11.6 which means that drivers are released in June 11. HP seems to be about 5 months behind AMD.

 

such is the risk of extending analogies... back to reality at the risk of some oversimplification: the CPU brings stuff into dynamic RAM (DRAM) because it is the fastest repository for the CPU to read from and write to. This memory is crazy fast, physically close to the CPU and optimized for data throughput over what used to be called "the front side bus". It is also volitile, meaning data is lost with the removal of power.

Silicon DRAM is expensive, and to keep costs down we buy what is needed.

The HDD is there because it is cheep and big and non-volitile, and can store stuff that the CPU doesn't need live access to all the time. Depending on how the application is written, will use RAM and HDD independantly for different reasons -- We use different technology for the HDD just to reduce cost: spinning aluminum is cheep (in cost per megabyte), but slow: If the HDD were just as fast as RAM, then we could have one big pot of memory instead of a small/fast one and a large/slow one.

now then, if there is not enough DRAM for the CPU to do its work, it has to utilize the large/slow HDD to keep breathing. when this happens, the system grinds to a crawl, page file usage goes way up, and we get cranky.

The SSD is made from silicon memory -- it is non-volitile (flash) memory and slower than dynamic RAM -- But it is much faster than the traditional rotating disk drive. Thuis -- if the application continuously writes to reads from the disk drive, then it will benefit directly from the SSD, and this is in addition to improvements in boot-up speed of course. Conversely, if the app reads and writes primarily from RAM, then the SSD will be of not benefit, except for boot-up and initial application load.

 

+1 dlleno. I felt as though I was sitting in a very cool computer class. LOL, you wanna teach maybe? It was very clear and to the point. Well done.

KJ

 

I meant, doesn't most of the heat come from the left side of the laptop?

 

Just received my Envy 17 (2070NR) today from JR.com - Couldn't wait for HP to get it in stock!

I've updated everything according to one of the later posts

Couple questions/issues:

1. My brightness keys don't work - all other F keys work as they should (hp is having me enable the FN in the BIOS) [FIXED - combination of running hp assistant and performing other updates and restarting]
2. The PC seems kind of sluggish - I'm talking it feels slower than my 2005 800mhz XP machine with 2gb of RAM - I assume I need to run the throttle test for this to see what the results are?
3. I was having an issue closing/minimizing windows - it was like those buttons were disabled - I had to right click on the task bar to close a window

how long should BIOS memory and hard drive tests take?

TIA

 

using my phone to post this as it is a lot easier to post than edit a previous post, so sorry in advance for redundancy.

Memory test took 45 min to complete and passed

Short hard drive test - 45 minutes
Long test - estimating at 405 minutes

hard drive test came back positive (passed) - should I try to do a system recovery?

 

On the subject of video drivers, etc. Two questions to the readers:

Anyone ever figure our a way to permanently change default graphics to intel, instead of AMD? Beyond having to manually change after reboot if desired.

Anyone confirm when loading processor even a little ( example, playing multiple videos at once) that they also get a ticking sound coming from left hand side, between the touch pad and cooling fan. I get this noise and have confirmed it is not present when on intel graphics at all. Sometimes loud, sometimes ticking fast and noise is less noticeable. I know one other person who can verify the same locally. It's definitely not the hard drive, not the DVD drive and not the cooling fan. Can put ear to unit and hear source right between fan and touchpad, and makes it sound like its coming from esata/usb3 combo port opening area. Something to do with use of AMD graphics. Hp says maybe motherboard. Not so sure if one other person has same experience and noise not present at all on intel graphics.

Thanks for any input.

 

I wouldn't suggest using system recovery because you might lose your Adobe applications. I'd make sure all you're drivers are updated through HP.com, or use the HP support assistant. My original Envy 17 was the same as yours and through Jr.com as well. I never had an issue with it and it was very fast. I know HP made a change to the quick ship models with the hard drive's rpm speed. Mine was definitely 2x 500gb 7200rpm, they changed it to 5400rpm now. Possibly that may be the issue why things are sluggish? Check the model of the hard drives through Intel's Raid Utility.

 

According to jr.com, they are still 7200 rpm.

 

Regarding the Adobe applications I posted like 2 or 3 pages ago a way to get it back after a system recovery or minimal system install (provided you backed up the SwSetup folder).


I really think it's time to edit the first post of this thread so that we sum up all issues or tips encountered till now. Could someone do it?

 

Also another "interesting" thing. This week-end while browsing and watching a video at the same time suddenly the sound went mute, I noticed the sound icon in the notification area had the little red cross just like when it is mute (or when no sound driver is found?), and like 5-10 seconds after I got a BSOD with no information about what driver failed or something I could look for, nothing in the Windows event logs either...

Note that this happened after I installed the latest IDT drivers. It happened only once so far, so not sure what could be the cause... Anyone got this as well?

 

Hi Guys,

I want to build in the SSD into my Envy17 right now but I cannot open the housing. The screws are out already but it's holding in the middle where this rubber 5th rubber foot is. It holds very tight? Must I pull harder or is there anything else I must do? I cannot slide the cover plate because it`s still fixed at this point. I also found this video but the guy opens it easily there but it does not look like it was fixed properly in the middle (between the 2 screws).

Thank you, best regards and I hope for fast suggestions if somehow possible to continue,

DvP

Edit: Found something in the Youtube comments that helped:
"@Airbag888: There is a small catch at the front of the cover just at the middle rubber pad. Just gently insert something thin in the crack between the chassis and the cover. I used a tiny flat screwdriver. "

Edit: Sorry, another question: I installed the SSD now and it's shown properly in Windows, BUT the bios does not let me decide from which HDD (or SSD) it should boot!? I can only select HDD, USB or DVD/BluRay. Is there any workarround for that or am I just blind/dumb?

As soon as I connect both SSD and HDD the system will boot from the HDD, no matter what I do. The only thing I can think about right now is to swap the mounting places!?

Thank you!

 

fish1203, if you updated the IDT drivers from Windows Update, this will most likely happen. We discussed Video and Sound drivers regarding Windows Update and found you should NEVER update video and sound drivers that way. Best way is to use HP Support Assistant which will scan your system and suggest and download the appropriate drivers, you can go to HP.com and search for updated drivers, and last resort is to go to the developers site to download the drivers(but that's not guaranteed to work, like Windows Update).

I'd suggest to uninstall the IDT, and get it from HP.com Good luck.

KJ

 

If you intend to use the SSD as your OS drive. I suggest that you put it on SATA 0 (main port) and temporarily remove the other drive. Run either a clean install or your recovery disks to get back up and running. Remember, you may have to repair the MBR, because the SSD is smaller than your HDD and you might get the error after reboot...no biggie...Make sure that you created your recovery disks...and you might want to also create a system repair disk to repair the MBR. The system disk option is in your maintainance folder. My guide gives you the fix for the MBR...works to break up raid or just repair the MBR when you use recovery disks to install OS on a disk of a different size than the one the machine shipped with...Make sure to copy the C:\SWSETUP folder and the TriDef folders to a dual layer DVD...you will need to install HP software, Adobe Premiere Elements, Photoshop Elements, TriDef 3D and drivers

http://forum.notebookreview.com/hp-...ay-fix-hp-envy-17-3d-pavillion-notebooks.html

Once you have Windows up and running on the SSD...then you can put the HDD back on SATA 1 (secondary SATA) and format it...to use for programs, etc.

 

@ Bobmitch
Hi, thx for the answer but my original question is still unanswerede. To go the safe way I disconnected the HDD and put the SSD on the spare place (SATA 1) and install worked. But if I connect both drivers now only the HDD will boot and never the SSD. I could remove the old boot partition on the HDD now but I don't know if the SSD woul start then. Alternatively I could swap the SSD to Sata 0 and put the HDD on Sata 1. I am not sure if the SSD will automatically boot now. I would leave the HDD untouched right now to keep the recovery partion and all original files until I got the System set up on SSD properly ;-)
By the way, I used a retail Win7 Home Premium and I will install the necessary drivers now by hand.

So if both "HDDs" are bootable the Envy 17 will always boot the one on Sata 0? How stupid is that?

 

You should probably just boot the machine with the SSD on SATA 0. Do not connect the HDD. Then you might get the "missing OS" error or some other error that forces you to use the MBR command. Keep the HDD disconnected until you are sure the SSD is booting. What is happening is that the computer is following the MBR that is on the HDD. My bet is that you get an error booting just to the SSD. Fix the MBR and make the SSD the boot drive.

 

Hi,

Sorry, but you are getting me wrong. Maybe my English is not good enough ;-) I have both drives in the Envy. On both is already Win7 64 (HDD: Original install, SSD: My new clean install with retail Win7 Home Premium). If I connect my SSD only (Sata 1) it boots properly. If I connect both (HDD on Sata 0) but it also boots properly the old Windows. Of course I do not have both OS in the Bootloader and I don't care, BUT I want the SDD to boot and not the HDD. Sadly I cannot change the HDD boot order in the Bios. Maybe it is always checking Sata0 first. Then I will have to exchage the drive bays and switch HDD and SSD.

 

Again...remove the HDD. Make sure to put SSD on SATA 0. Make sure you can get into Windows on the SSD on SATA 0. Then put the HDD on SATA 1, later after you are sure SSD boots properly. I believe that the bios defaults to SATA 0 for boot drive. The HDD is going to be secondary...so you want it on SATA 1....but don't re-connect it until you are sure SSD is bootable.

 

Yep KJ, I know that. As a matter of fact I took the latest updated from HP, which was last Thursday or something like that. IT is detailed in the HP updated drivers topic: http://forum.notebookreview.com/hp-drivers-software-forum/556469-drivers-hp-dv6-4xxx-dv6-6xxx-dv7-5xxx-dv7-6xxx-envy-17-2xxx-intel.html

 

That's all I wanted to know. The SSD is bootable already and also alone without the 1TB drive In a few minutes I can confirm that the Envy17 can only boot from a SATA 0 HDD, at least if there are 2 bootable HDDs. But still - that is extremely stupid! Why no switchable boot order for HDDs?

EDIT: Next stupid thing. Sata 0 bay has a drive caddy which is vibration protected and this one does not fit into the Sata 1 bay. So the SSD will be vibration "detached" (which is useless) and the HDD will transport vibration to the housing of the notebook :-( What a mess!

 

Yep that's a shame, but really the "vibration protection" of the 1st bay isn't really doing anything... I have the 1 Tb HDD in the 2nd bay and I don't feel any vibration at all.

 

Hmm, ok would be a possibility :-/ But what if I kill the boot partition of the HDD (Sata0) and boot then with the SSD built in the Sata1 bay? Does anybody know if that will work? Alterternatively I could do what Bobmitch said but I just don't want to put the bootloader onto the HDD. This should be ONLY my storage drive.
Seems like I do have to live with a vibratation protected SSD and non protected HDD. If you buy an Envy with 2 HDDs built in, is the second one still not vibration protected? That would be quite fully

Edit: Ok, done. Now i do have a vibration protected SSD. I must take care not to tell any of my friends who are PC enthusiasts too

 

Oh, in that case then I'd call Envy tech. I do hope those guys will have the fix for you.

KJ

 

just wonder if you've worked out your issue or if you sent it back?

 

Question. Are you trying to dual boot from SSD to HDD??? If that is the case, then you would have to install the OS on the HDD on SATA 1 again! The master boot record is set to boot from only one drive. Much like if you were going to dual boot WinXP and Win 7. You install XP on C and Win 7 on D. In your case, you cannot dual boot without reinstalling the OS on the HDD...which means you wipe it. Once only C is bootable...and you go to install Win 7 on the D drive as well...that is when the master boot record is created that gives you the choice of drives...

 

It looks like my freezing has seized..May have been the hard reset that was performed, or combination of system restore/ not update the intel wireless driver

I see that intel has a new driver dated 6/6/11 - Has anyone been able to successfully update the intel wireless driver to 14.1.1? Mine stays at the 11/2010 driver (the one the laptop was shipped with) I've tried uninstalling the old one before running the newly downloaded EXE and it still does not show the new driver date

The new driver is supposed to help with machines freezing when downloading large files (mine was doing this)