*HP HDX DRAGON Owners Lounge, Part 1*

You have solved the fingerprint reader mystery for me, and probably many others. The secret is to STOP Windows on a clean install from loading any updates. Disconnect the LAN communication. (If you get a message from Windows that AES2501A installed itself, your fingerprint reader will be broken!) You must first load the fingerprint reader (SP37920) and then the Digital Persona (SP40216). Then you can let Windows do it's updating. I waited until I had my QuickPlay and Quicktouch drivers loaded before turning the communication back on.

Job well done and I thank you very much Eclypse3D for showing me the secret.

(For others reading this: If windows did load updates, then you should consider executing a system restore back to the very first initial clean Windows image and save yourself the trouble of loading Win 7 again if you want the fingerprint reader to work.)

Eclypse3D, my QuickPlay TV tuner button works on the keyboard. (TV Tuner logic in Media Center s/w is OK also.) I did upgrade to QuickPlay 3.7 before I initialized the TV tuner. I ran the TVTnr driver load from my swsetup file and forced it to run in compatability mode for Vista SP1. I also ran QPW and QLB from my swsetup file. QPW loaded fine without any compatabilty adjustments. QLB I ran in Vista SP1 compatabilty mode... and it still gave an error message, but most everything works. When the quicklaunch buttons start after a boot, you get an error message that it's incompatable, but click the box to run it anyway, and also check the box to not show the message again, then you won't ever see it again. The yellow color on the mute button does not work, but the eject and other buttons do work. Not sure on the bass and treble, but they are not important to me as I use an external sound board. QuickPlay buttons work.

I am a happy camper as I can do a Windows 7 clean install with the same functionality as if I did an upgrade from the original Vista image. This will simplify my system rebuilds.

One last piece of information I'll pass on... for those of you with an Intel SSD, don't load the Matrix Storage SATA driver unless you want to do another system restore or system load. I'm not sure if this applies to other SSD's but with an Intel, it's a sure bust.

 

Whilst this may not particularly surprise anyone, just for my own amusement, I wanted to report the difference just cleaning out the fans on my HDX made, after 9 months of use.

I was running my 880GTS at 550/900/1400 - and hitting the scorching temperature of 78 degrees under extreme stress.

Then I cleaned the fans.

Now I've clocked the card to 600/950/1600, and I'm getting 63 degrees under stress.

Retardiculous.

It's worth noting that everything sounds a hell of a lot quieter now, too Lol.

 

Even if you do happen to let windows update install the new 3/09 Finger print driver you can still go in and manually update the driver and select the old driver from the list, it will show both, and the old driver will be slightly greyed out. =) I am glad my post was useful =)

 

hello. how did you clean the fan? did you uninstall all of the bottom part? may i know how you overclock the gpu and what program do you use to monitor temp? thank you

 

would also like to know. thanks.

 

Ok, Ok...

There's semi-good news and bad news.

Semi-good;
1. The 280M GTX will boot up to windows but the screen is sort of fuzzy. Looks bad even at BIOS post.

Bad news:

1. driver won't install because it doesn't detect the card. Only Microsoft VGA driver works.

2. Mods have to be made in order to get the card to mate up properly with heat sink.

3. No temp readings available, yet.

Not sure what to do going forward to get this card working. My best guess is that it's a BIOS issue. Not sure I want to reflash the HDX's BIOS.

 

Maybe thats why I dont see any difference or artifacts, none of the tvs are that big. Though I hope to get one sometime I'll keep that in mind. Thanks. I wonder how Blu Ray burning differs. I'm thinking I may just get an external Blu Ray burner so I can use it with any PC and it will be faster than the SJ-220. I guess Slysoft would be a better bet to use for that than Nero.

 

:cry: I have been sitting hoping for good news all day. That is just so sad. Crazy that is will boot and actually make it to windows though. I wander if because the 9800 is so similar to the 8800 if that is why it worked (Of course I guess we do not know for certain if this is true or not). except for the one on EBay I have not seen any less than $700 (That is the price at R&J). I wish you the best of luck. Maybe there will be a solution yet!! Don’t give up, but don’t try too much and waste too much time and hair if it is lost cause

 

Awh... genuinely gutted to hear this news, but mad props regardless for being the one to throw down and give it a try anyway. Certainly does sound like a BIOS/Hardware issue if you're noticing problems before you even boot; and if Windows isn't detecting it either, then clearly there's some communication between the GPU and the mobo that just isnt' happening right - strange that it works at all, in that sense though.

Still, at least you've gotten somewhere with it; who knows, there might be a trick or tweak out there that will help you along your way with it.

Best of luck if you decide to hold on to the card and experiment a little - but I'd tend to agree on being reluctant to flash the BIOS; I know I wouldn't trade my HDX in for anything - too much sentimentality attached to it, and they are certainly not easily replaced! I'd sooner buy another laptop to have a fiddle with in order to preserve the world's largest endangered lappy, rather than risk bricking it

 

Is this because of different MXM III types: 41mm vs. 46 mm

III-41:


III-46:


http://www.mxm-upgrade.com/types.html

 

See Pages 53-55 of the HDX Manual (linked on Page 100) to see how to properly get at the fans. Essentially it involves taking out the battery, unscrewing the screws in the battery bay, unscrewing 7 of the screws on the bottom at the back of the machine, unscrewing the silver hinge, and then pulling the plastic top off the top of the machine. I then used a can of comressed air I picked up off ebay for a fiver to blow the dust out of the fans (in the direction of usual airflow).

It was the vents that were dusty, blocking the airflow, much more than the fans themselves.

To be honest with you, you could probably just use said compressed air to blow the dust into the vents without removing a single screw, but whilst that would likely clean out the vents themselves, I'm a bit wary of blowing that dust INTO the machine - it just ends up clogged somewhere deeper, which takes it's toll over time.

I use the drivers listed in my sig, with nVidia's ESA tools (Check nVidia website) to overclock the GPU - and I use HW Monitor to watch the temperatures.

I had trouble getting all that to work in Vista the first time I tried using it - ESA seemed to crash my system when I tried to use it - but I DID get it working eventually after cleaning out some registry stuff (apologies, the specifics escape me, was a while ago) - however it was as simple as install and tweak on Win7.

 

What about light suction using a mini handheld vacuum cleaner?

 

Here is what mine looked like after about 6months:

 

Worth a shot, but I'd recommend cleaning the damn thing out properly - I don't imagine a vacuum will do anywhere near as good a job - you'll still have bits stuck in there that you won't be able to get at. Once you have those few pages of the manual out in front of you and a screwdriver in your hand, it really isn't as arduous as it sounds. Only took me half an hour or so, and I was being quite thorough (although getting that plastic thing back ON properly was a bit of a fiddle - didn't seem to want to clip back on properly for me).

CompTrekkie, I'm at work so your pic has been blocked out for some reason :/ I'm guessing it looks like a giant hairball though? Lol.

EDIT: Nevermind just checked it out on my mobile. Would you believe mine was worse than that? It was like a WALL of fluff - I couldn't even really feel the air coming through at the back when I put my hand there, just the heat. So I guess zero airflow ---> good airflow is worth about 15 degrees Lol.

 

is this going to be tricky? because this is my first time to disassemble a lappy?

 

If you do it regularly every 1-2 months depending on your environment, it should work. That's what HP is recommending for vent cleaning:
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c01580483&cc=ua&lc=en&dlc=ru&product=3804112

 

This has some truth to it - it only really becomes a problem if you allow it to build up and get really stuck in there - if you clean it regularly (before the dust really starts to clump up and stick to things), you shouldn't have any problems.

EDIT: And no, it's not tricky at all to remove the cover and clean it, if you think you might need to do that before trying the regular cleaning the vacuum suggested above

 

Whilst not particularly related to the HDX - has anyone else noticed just how friendly Win7 is with HSPDA connections? It's pretty nifty; I'm actually able to use Win7 native software to connect to T-Mobile without having to bother with the T-mobile software at all - and without even having to configure the connection in Win7 either! I just connected once using the T-mobile software, and windows figured the rest out by itself. Handy!

Win7 is really winning me over - it really is what microsoft was TRYING to do with Vista. It's vista, but prettier, and less broken! Utterly impressed so far.

 

Is that like an external or express sound card or something? I apologize for my ignorance on this.

 

That sucks..:/ Wait, you went with the 280M because it was the best or because it was good and less expensive than the 9800? Wasn't the 9800 the more sure bet to work because of its type and from what ilovedragons mentioned from him friend? Don't know if it helps at all but here are some MXM sites I've seen (the first one recommended to me by MobileArtist via PM from a while back):

http://www.mxm-upgrade.com/

http://mxmvideoquest.com/index.html


Regarding the possible CPU overclocking, assuming it can happen, do we know with any certainty how far we can overclock each CPU without damaging anything?

 

thanks.
do you overclock the gpu by using nvidia control panel? can't find it there....

 

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=169232&page=616

Download and use the NVIDIA Performance Tool

 

i've already downloaded this but i can't find where to overclock.....
NVIDIA System Tools with ESA Support

 

Nope cant get it to work. The picture is extremely fuzzy right from power on. As was assumed from the onset, BIOS issue stands in the way as it does with all MXM upgrades. You have to be able to flash the video card's BIOS with appropriate info. The only hope is that the card one might acquire already has the appropriate or similar info that's needed. Which might be the case with this 9800GTX taken from an alienware or some such.

It's a bust. Going to sell the card.

No MXM is a sure bet. There's lots of issues that have to line up just right.
Even the heat sink mount from your 8800M GTS would have to be removed (no teasy and can destroy the card as it's glued to the back of it). Other problem is that there are crystal IC's that are in different places with the 9800M and 280M that would require that you fabricate a copper plate to interface between the GPU's heat spreader and heat sink. It's 3/64" gap that needs to be filled because the heatsink of the HDX will hit the tops of those crystal ICs.

So what am I saying? You need a Dremel to make things fit properly. Otherwise forget it. Like I said from the beginning, MXM ain't all it's cracked up to be. However, let's say that HP continued the HDX and later models had 9800M GTS or better. It may be possible to add those cards as the mount holes for MXM III cards is the same.

No, it's not that you'll damage things as it is that things will blue screen on you when you go to high. You're not just overclocking the CPU, you're obverclocking the FSB. Which means your RAM timings will be buggered above certain frequencies of the FSB. Modding the PLL isn't all that easy also.

I have detailed pics of all my work and a great shot of the PLL. I'll post them in a few days when I get back in order and the holiday passes.

 

The length is an exact match between the 280M and 8800M. All mounting holes are to spec also. Issue is BIOS of the HDX and Video ios on the card. They just don't want to be friends.

 

Here they are side by side. Left = 8800M GTS, right = 280M GTX.



Two things you should notice:

1. 280M GTX doesn't come with a heat sink mounting bracket. You would have to remove the one off the 8800M. Not as easy as it looks b/c after you undo the nuts, you will have to pry the bracket from under the card which is glued to the card. What's more, if you install it on the 280M, while the holes line up, the metal bracket's shape underneath will be different and will cover components. Meaning, if you don't do it properly, you will short out surface mount components. 280M and 9800M share the same exact mount which is different than the 8800M's. So the chap who installed the 9800M GTX had to Jerry-rig the mount to make it work.

8800M w/heatsink bracket attached: Notice its pattern.


280M GTX heat sink mounting hole and outline pattern. Notice the difference... 8800M's bracket, while the holes line up for the screws, the bracket's metal doesn't. 280M and 9800M share the same bracket which is straight on one end unlike the 8800M's.



2. The two large silver square components on the 280M GTX are higher than the top of the GPU's heatspreader. ("where is says Nvidia"). Therefore the heat sink from the HDX, which rests partly on top of those two compoments will not sit on the GPU's heatspreader. There is a 3/64" gap. You would have to use a 2/32" piece of copper cut 22/32" square. (Which I did using a dremel and some spare copper I had). Then you would have to coat both sides of this copper piece with heatsink compound. I used Arctic Silver 5.

To the right is the top of the 2 components on the 280M GTX I'm referRing to. To the left, out of focus is the top of the GPU's heat spreader. You can see the difference in height.



So as you can see, while it MAY be possible to upgrade the GPU, it will NOT be a simple plug and play. HDX's heat sink is proprietary and custom fitted for the 8800M GTS.

There were other issues I encountered which make the task more difficult than meets the eye. Also, they sent a heat sink with the card which would be installed in the Clevo M570TU which is far more robust than the HDX's - comprising of 100% copper with 3 heat pipes.

Here's a pic of how it comes - encased in a copper "box."

 

FOR DOMINICK7 (and for all, of course):

HDX's ICS PLL chip:

 

Hmm do you think then that because he got it from an Alienware notebook that had similar BIOS info thats why it worked, where as if someone didn't pull it from an existing machine that used it, but bought it brand new it wouldn't work?

 

So basically the best bet is to either pull it from a machine like an Alienware or wait till the HDX18 gets a 9800 or better, get a busted one from Ebay or something and pull it from there?

Hmm I see. If it can work, say with the 9800 from an Alienware I'd be willing to do the work or more likely have someone do it for me, ESPECIALLY if I can install a better CPU at the same time that I had the thing already opened.

 

Well for starters, we don't know where "he" got it from since Alienware never produced a notebook with an 9800M GTX. It was likely a mis-speak and he got it from another computer.

There is no bets bet. It's hit or miss. No guarantees. MXM isn't exactly plug and play and why I have been saying all along that since HP doesn't allow you to get at the video BIOS apart from system BIOS, it will be less than likely that you will be able to upgrade.

It's a big job that requires physical remodeling of the HDX and that doesn't guarantee success. It's one of those jobs that if you can't do it yourself, no one is going to do it correctly for you. Basically, you would have to find someone who has done it on the HDX and if THEY are willing, they may do it for you for a fee considering the time involved. But a Best Buy geek Squad or some such will NOT be able to do it for anyone.

 

This makes me a sad panda.

 

2.0, thanks for taking one for the Dragon team, bro. I'm sure you were as or more disappointed than anyone. +rep for trying!! Very nice, informative pics, btw.
Have you put your baby back together yet, and does she still work?

 

Nope, still disassembled. Will be back to normal tomorrow. You know what I hate? when life gets in the way of geekdom.

But by putting my money where my doubts were, it proves what I have been saying all along about MXM and upgradeability. Easier said than done. Pretty much, if the manufacturer of your computer doesn't offer an upgraded card on a later edition of your model, you're SOL. This is how's it's been from the pre-MXM Nvidia geforce2go days. I recall going from a geforce 2 to geforce 4 440 on a Dell Inspiron. Lots of folks toasted the 440go trying to upgrade. Bad BIOS flash was usually the culprit.

In any event, nearing retirement time as there's not much else that can be done with the HDX. It's a legend that died before it's time. Have to start thinking about my next rig. Matter of fact, my next computing paradigm. Thinking small form factor desktop as main computer with 24" monitor. 15" notebook to supplement and a tablet for work. I'd say about 2 years from now.

But between now and then, I'm just going to enjoy the dragon...

...as is...

 

well done, 2.

so are you saying that you already flashed to f40e? to really rule out bios, i guess you might try that. if you didn't i know you don't want to risk. and it's easy to say it'll work, since it did for me.

fwiw, all i did was download the bios update from here
http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/...&dlc=en&cc=us&product=3747924&os=2100&lang=en
for 9494NR 64 bit, im sure the model doesn't matter tho.

ran it (has a graphical user interface), with the lappy plugged in of course. hit ok on the prompts, and restarted and booted up fine.

not sure if some people are flashing it "manually" from a disk, or what, but....

 

That would surely brick the HDX or kill the card. Perhaps both. Using any HDX BIOS, not just f.40 because then I would be flashing the 280M GTX's BIOS also which is not compatible with HP's Nvidia BIOS. Different timings and voltages, powermizer 8 instead of 7, etc...

Tricky-tricky.

 

oh. ya tricky im sure, but im confused. do you have an HDX 20? i must have not read your other posts or something and missed something?

huh??? did you write a custom program if you have the hdx 20?
i thought most if not all people here DO HAVE some kind of HDX bios, whatever version it is, from hp, no?

this doesn't make sense. i don't know if you believed that i meant to flash the video card somehow with the bios.

clearly i was talking about the hdx, itself, and using the gui, after you run the executable update. i don't even know how you would flash the video card separately, but most assuredly, it would not recognize it as the right device or what not.

besides the update i linked are not individual files, it is an executable that runs a gui to flash the bios. it's dummy proof.

i'm still confused from your statements. so as to be nothing assumed.

i mean flash to f40e bios (i don't know why people keep saying f40 (maybe that is the source of whoever's problems here), then put the 280M card in there.

don't know how it would just magically write to the card, or say how it would surely brick it, unless you know the details of the f40E vs the f39 and there was some change that would not make it compatible??????

on that note, why even stick it in the hdx, if it's not compatible with ANY bios...apparently the card wasn't bricked when you stuck it in your HDX (but maybe because you have a custom program??).

i don't understand.

and i don't understand all the paranoia over the f40 E bios.

how many ACTUALLY bricked their HDX 20? and of those, were they all asked how exactly they did it??? were we to assume that they knew exactly what they were doing or reported things accurately? did they unplug power or do something else while they were updating? did they verify that the file downloaded was complete and not corrupted? was something else at work?

seems to make sense to ask details like this. more scientific approach instead of flat out making people weird about using the latest.

quantifying this. and analyzing it. not just guessing this and that.

ANYWAY, i know it's tricky from the other aspects, like physical mods, etc. but i was just saying that technically, if you were using an hp bios on your HDX 20(never heard of any other)...that was earlier than F40E, and it didn't recognize it because the bios (presumably), then maybe just maybe after successfully updating to the latest bios and trying then as well, you could also rule out the F40E not working for it either, if that be the case.

IF i am to assume you are saying that somehow it would change the 280M bios, just by plugging in the card (after you flash the computer bios), AND you currently used the hp F39 bios and it didn't work, then by that logic wouldn't the 280M now take on the F39 bios or whatever, and do what you don't want to happen, load some hp nvidia thing on it?

of course that if/then statement assumes what is in it. i know you probably had a custom program bios (but i never heard of this). please share.

 

Yes, I'm talking about HDX 20. Flashing to f40e before putting the card in (ie, with the 8800M GTS in) would do nothing towards making the 280M card work. If you understand how the HP BIOS works, the graphics card BIOS is incorporated into the BIOS update. It flash both the system BIOS and Gphic card BIOS at the same time.

What would be needed, which is not possible, is the ability to flash the BIOS of the graphic card separately so the system BIOS can recognize it. Some notebooks have that ability. The HDX doesn't.

If you flash the HDX's BIOS with the 280M card in, you will kill the HDX or the 280M, or both. The 8800M's BIOS which is incorporated into the HDX BIOS is very much different than the BIOS of the 280M GTX.

As for the F40e BIOS bricking HDX's, I've done the investigation with as many as have reported their HDX bricked and the outcome is that it is completely random. They did everything by the book. HP is aware of the problem but can't figure out why it happens. They didn't pull the BIOS update because it is strictly optional and as any BIOS update, done at the end user's risk. Technically, you can brick the HDX with any BIOS update. The F40e has a higher incidence of failure than all the others.

As I said before, it is probably due to differences in certain components used in the HDX. Much like there are HDX's with different sound hardware revisions, different USB controllers, and different Nvidia graphics cards that use Samsung or Hynix memory. I know, I have 2 HDX's built on the same day with different components in them. Each has different performance.

This isn't the first time it's happened. When the Nvidia card was introduced in the HDX, the early BIOS bricked a few ATI only mobos. HP pulled that one because the failed to label it properly as for Nvidia HDX's only. Subsequently they made their BIOS compatible with all units.

HP has a history of BIOS update issues across their lines. Sometimes they correct them, sometimes not. Rarely do they correct them for discontinued software.

 

i tried asking this apparently stupid question before and it went unanswered until now. thanks.

or none?

so when you were putting this 280M GTX in, and referring to it(source of incompatibility) probably being the bios...you meant the video bios? if so, then it makes sense. because if you just stuck the 280M GTX in when you did, with the F39 bios, then you were not actually doing anything to the graphics card in terms of writing to it.

what i was thinking was that the computer's bios somehow interacts with the video card (separate from the video card's bios), and that changing the computer's bios to F40E, may somehow bring some nuance that would allow the 280M GTX to work. that was my thinking.

 

Unequivocally will corrupt something. At a minimum, the graphics card.

Correct. I'm referring to the video BIOS. But at the same time, the HDX's BIOS, which tend to be "whitelisted" (meaning have a list of compatible components that will work with the computer - anything else is prevented from working properly and in some cases prevent boot), wouldn't simply read the 280M's BIOS and make the necessary accommodations.

Unfortunately, updating to f40e wouldn't have any bearing on the situation. The ability to modify the HDX's BIOS is what is needed. If that were possible, BIOS undervolting, overclocking and video card compatibility would possible.

HP notebooks are notoriously difficult for doing mod work and upgrades. HP locks things down tight.

 

IMHO, the only GPU upgrade that is potentially likely to work, BIOS-wise, is the 3700M from HP (and not 3700M from other OEMs like IBM):
http://www.sparepartswarehouse.com/HP,Laptop,Part,493984001.aspx

However, it is too expensive to consider...

 

wow $1500!

here is one for less. only one with hp indicated
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nvidia-Quadro-FX-3700M-MXM-III-for-IBM-W700-HP-8730W_W0QQitemZ320388624231QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Video_TV_Cards?hash=item4a98a66f67&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12|66%3A2|39%3A1|72%3A1234|293%3A1|294%3A50

$380 free shipping.

we need someone rich here to do the experimenting.

 

Yep, nice find. Though it won't physically fit the HDX though. You will have to make my aforementioned modifications so the heat sink will properly mate. What's more, it likely won't work because of the clocks and voltage difference between the 8800M GTS and this card. The g92b's use a lot more watts (twice as much) than the g92s.

Where as, the 9800M GTX has the same stock clocks as the 8800M GTS. That being 500/800/1250. So that might be the limit as far as upgradeability.

 

Not sure if this is a GENUINE HP card with HP-specific Orion BIOS - the HP one I mentioned one post up is originally fitted in HP EliteBook 8730w Mobile Workstation. I don't think HP has any model with the 9800M GTX and I don't think getting a non-HP 9800M GTX would work.

 

I noticed that our 8800M GTS has a 'sweet spot' by clocking it as the 9800M GTS except for the memory (@900 instead of the 9800M's 800MHz).
8800M GTS @ 600/900/1500 = ~9700 3DMark06 points and same temps as non-OC'ed.
(the 9800M GTS is factory clocked at 600/800/1500 and yields ~9700 points in 3DMark06).

 

Yeah, I am rocking 610/975/1525. Will give that one a try later too.

 

I'm running 635/1015/1588 and geting 10008 in 3dmark 2006

 

Your fuzzy screen is a memory timings problem. What is concerning video bios what is GPU-Z displaying?

 

is your system stable with this setting?

 

too much a cost for a mere extra 300 3dMark06 points (my 8800M GTS @ 600/900/1500 = ~9700 3DMark06 points and same temps as non-OC'ed). you seem to have the better VRAM variety, and perhaps if you reduce your mem clock a bit by 50-100MHz you would be able to achieve HIGHER 3DMark06 scores. Yes, there is a known paradox!

 

will try that