HP OMEN 15 and 17 owners lounge

Got me a CB0050NR yesterday and after doing all the tweaking i could i got 4.2-4.3ghz all core 2055ghz on 2080 with 190w bios mod 450mhz on memory and a liquid metal repaste. Temps idle are 33-40 on full load 65-75 depending on the game im playing. Undervolted CPU .125mv and havent undervolted gpu yet. i have the 9750h and used throttle stop to set turbo time to max, set maximum performance in power plan options to the cpu at 99% and set turbo power limits and locked it to 78watts. I dont thermal throttle or power throttle.i have windows 10 1909 fully debloated via script. 32gb ram corsair. 2080 power was set to adaptive. I never saw my 9750h hit the single core 4.5ghz before i tweaked it always was 4.3 max i ran several test like realbench memtest cinebench superposition intel burn prime95. When installing omen command center be aware that gamestream eats CPU at the beginning of startup. i have to manually end the process to stop it from eating 5 cores at 100% usage. Even though i disabled streaming via omen. If anybody has more suggestions lemme know. id like to achieve 4.5ghz all core turbo on this if anybody knows how lemme know. i am considering the 180w vbios mod to see if the extra 10watts towards the cpu would have a different in turbo. CPU stay at 4ghz all the time while i game it boost 200-300mhz

Leaving the voltage at normal and leaving the power plan on 100% made the cpu throttle down to 3.5ghz for some reason dont know why i couldnt figure it out.

i wanted the 9880h with the full 2080 and 240hz screen but unfortunately hp told me i had to wait 1 month before getting it.

i wish there was a way to set memory timing as i have cl14 corsair 3000mhz ram (its cl16 but can be set at cl14 and works did this on a clevo)

 

Thought I'd throw this out there: Finally disabled memory integrity today so I could try Throttlestop instead of XTU. The issue I was having is, even with a 35W power cap (the lowest it will accept) in XTU and -.1V, my CPU was hitting 99 while playing Crysis 2 at 4K/ultra. It turns out the Throttle stop multiplier cap gives much better results, with all cores set to 40 and Speed Step turned on, with the same -0.1V undervolt, temps in the 80s. Underclocking the 2080 didn't do much to help so I gave up on that. So I've got 3 profiles set up in TS now, Performance (-.1V, Speed Step, 65W/65W and it will stress at 90C), Gaming (-.1V, Speed Step, 40X all cores, 65W), and the Oculus one I haven't done yet. It hasn't like undervolts below 0.4 but I will play with it and report back.
So the moral so far is even power cap allows individual cores to turbo up to an insane temperature on the i9. The version of XTU I'm using didn't allow multiplier modifications but Throttlestop has taken care of that. I rather like that it's not a autoboot service, either. As to having memory integrity turned off, I could never get it working on my Haswell machine so no biggie. If anyone knows a workaround, please share, also please any thermal modifications. I took the plastic sheet covering the grill out, it's replaceable if necessary.

 

You can't get higher than all core 4GHz with a 9750H, it's locked within the CPU, you need a HK CPU to overclock. Any settings to reflect all core higher than 4GHz will be ignored.

If it boosts higher in game it's because it's utilizing less cores, you'd also not likely see a correct reflection of this looking at say MSI Afterburner stats in game with all CPU stats laid out.

 

Does anybody know the hp part number for the motherboard with the full 2080 and 9880h for the omen 17t i wanna get it

 

i play three kingdoms msi afterburner shows 20-50% use of all core and i get 4087 stable all cores 90% of the time other 10 is 4187-4387 but if you say it doesnt show it correct id believe it.

 

Yeah it's physically impossible to run the 9750H at more than all core turbo 4GHz. Anything higher will most certainly not be using all cores.

 

Service Manual p 17, L59778-xx1 but who knows what the x mean.

 

Are there any VR gamers with these machines? I currently have the oculus rift and maybe selling it to get the rift s. ((Less cables)) So it would be nice to have a laptop that runs very smoothly with very when I make trips to the friends house.

And no I’m not asking if their powerful enough. I’m asking if they run smoothly. My last laptop had odd crashing issues when playing vr even though it met the recommended specs.

 

Yeah I do some VR gaming and this thing can definitely power anything VR related. The only problems you'll run into is ports for the stuff mini DP and a USB port. With the Rift/Rift S you're more or less forced to use mini DP.

I tried to get a dock set up that would let me run everything through the USB-C port and it kinda worked but not for VR. If you're getting the Omen 17 and want to do the 190w vbios mod you will lose the mini DP port. Probably the same deal with a Omen 15, not sure if the vbios mod works for the 15 so don't quote me on that working.

 

Display port only eh? Hmm. . .I wonder if that was the problem I was having with the last laptop? Since my Oculus uses HDMI I never thought to try an adapter for it. But that would be less of an issue if I side grade to the Rift S.

That would be nice if the Thunderbolt port worked. But, to my understanding most laptops have that port connected to the iGPU so I understand why it wouldn't work.

I haven't seen anyone with a 100w or 115w 2080 max-q bios flash on the Omen 15. I'd be curious to find out. It might not have the cooling capacity for that. Plus the small 200w power brick. But, it would be fun to find out actually.

Thanks for the reply though. Finding information on vr gaming on laptops is surprising hard to find.

 

And actually, if you connected the Rift S via thunderbolt by itself it would probably work. In the nvidia control panel you'll see that the video card actually handles the thunderbolt connection. I had a bunch of other crap connected to the dock, including another display so I'm betting the problem was not enough bandwidth. If it doesn't then no big deal, it's only a $7 cable or whatever for DP to thunderbolt. The oculus software was picking it up as a DP connection.

 

I’ll definitely have to try that out then. Gotta put my trusty Oculus rift up for grabs so I can upgrade. And I just pulled the trigger on an Omen 17 RTX 2080 / i9 9880h. There was a 10% off coupon that made it too good of a deal to pass up. And ironically cost $100 less than the Omen 15 with the same cpu and 2080 max-q.

 

Hello, new to the forum. I just got an HP Omen 15-DC1054NR for testing, just wondering if anyone knows (if it's possible) how to access advanced firmware (BIOS) on these machines? For a gaming computer the BIOS on this model are very basic (no pun intended)
If stock HP firmware doesn't allow for advanced functions,are there modded firmwares we can install on these models that would? I just updated the machine to the latest F16 firmware from HP's site. Only have a few days before the return window closes, so trying to do my research fast to help my decision.

I believe this is the older 2018 model, i7-9750H, 16GB RAM, 1660TI/6GB.

If anyone can offer any pointers or share some info I'd appreciate it!

TIA

 

Hi all,

Thank you for the lots of input provided in this thread about the Omen.

I got the I7 9750H RTX2080 17inch version, after repaste of the CPU with LM and the GPU with MX-4 it works great in thermals. Also the CPU is way less jumping in temps and not throttling in short peaks while fans haven’t ramp up yet. I upgraded to 32GB of RAM, first I got HyperX Impact 2666 CL15 sticks, but in Dual Channel they always crashed (was mentioned here earlier). Now with some random Crucial 2666 CL19 from amazon it’s working fine. Where I didn’t find information about, if there is a 2,5” connector included, when you buy the SSD-only version. It’s included in my SSD-only machine, including some dummy in the 2,5” bay.

One thing I have issues with and need your knowledge guys: Power Limits

I am using Throttlestop to apply -110mV undervolting (BIOS F.16). Intel XTU is not installed, XTUservice task is running in task manager.
But I cannot adjust the PL1 power to a higher level when I use the standard profile in OMEN Command Center. It’s capped at 45W PL1 long term power on CPU only. When I load CPU with prime and GPU with FurMark it drops to 35W. I can adjust lower values though.
In the FIVR window, the driver for “disable and lock turbo lower limits” is installed and it’s ticked.
When I choose the performance profile in OMEN Command, I can adjust higher power limits. But the fan curve is really aggressive and I would prefer the standard one and run at 80°C instead of 70°C.
Is there any way to get higher PL1 with standard profile? How do your configs with Throttlestop look like (or are you using Intel XTU?)?

 

You don't need to use the "disable" pack, that's for machines like Dell that have ridiculously low limits. HP has let this gloriously run free. The service is there because OCC uses it but there's no harm in disabling it (I have to no effect).

I gave up on XTU and switched to Throttlestop. Yes, XTU is pretty but damn is it weird, different versions don't run, conflict with Omen Command Center, won't install, it has a lot of overhead, and I really didn't like that the service is always running doing god-knows-what.
Throttlestop fixed all my Omen problems, along with just a MX4 repaste. I can now run the i9 at a constant 90W, with the temperature stable in the 80s. It is still very spiky but that's just the nature of the beast.
The three modes in Command Center don't change the fan ramp at all as far as I can tell. They just change the PL1 and PL2 limits, and Performance mode also seems to up the GPU performance in my case (it reaches higher frequencies playing the same game. It's probably also a power limit and not actual overclock). I just leave it in Performance mode all the time now, after the repaste it stays quiet while not gaming, and if I want it to stay silent during a videoconference or whatever I'll just put it in my Throttlestop gaming profile to limit CPU usage.
I've written a lot on Reddit about why PL1 and PL2 limits aren't great for limiting CPU temperatures during gaming. If you want the links lemme know. The best way to control this machine is with two profiles in Throttlestop (you can make your quiet mode as well): One for max CPU for general use, and one for gaming that prevents CPU thermal throttle while gaming. This machine has shared heat pipes. When the GPU is idle the CPU can run at max. When the GPU is running at max, the CPU cannot without overheating. The power limits don't fix this because the thermal scenario is just too complicated with all those cores, and no way of knowing which game is however multithreaded. It handles 8 core loads of the same wattage much better than single, even a single core can turbo up to 4700 MHz with a 35W cap and will still hit the temp limit. So I don't even bother, just leave PL1 and PL2 at 90 W, and set the Turbo Ratio Limits at 38X for a gaming profile and the temperatures stay under 90 C.
There are high and low limits burned in to the -H chips. You can't set PL1 below 35W. As described above it's still capable of overheating while gaming at that setting (sometimes). You can't exceed the full Turbo Ratio Limits of 41X for 8 cores (or the intermediate limits for 1-8 cores active). You can set it, but it won't take. How do I know this? With all set to 48X, and a -.100V undervolt it will bench all 8 cores at 4100 MHz at about 90W. With a -.125V undervolt it will bench all 8 cores at 4100 MHz and actually draw well below the 90W PL1 setting. This is interesting, because it means except for helping temperatures, undervolting below -.1 V doesn't increase theoretical performance in any way. Now I know what the -HK chip is really for (IF it can be cooled and powered, can run like the desktop chip).


Some extra info: This machine doesn't run out of PCI lanes, I have 2 SSDs and 1 HD in it and they all work (and bench) fine. I don't own anything thunderbolt, so that would be my last concern; that if it is out of lanes, the TB3 port may not work or it may cut something else. I haven't seen anyone else post about this issue if you can really load it out fully without issues.
I play a mix of new and old games. The demanding ones DO benefit from MAX fan setting--your repaste and undervolt will throw off the fan ramp. The only thing I use Command Center for these days.
It doesn't breathe well, I removed the black plastic shield from the back panel that covers most of the inlet screen. This, with a cooling pad, helped my SSD temps a lot.
I put some black tag board under the rear feet to keep the ejected air from blowing back underneath and moving rearwards (also to protect my aluminum USB hub behind the machine that was scorching from the blast). At a glance it looks like it shoots rearwards but looking at the inside of the bottom cover there's outlets on the bottom, as well.
I'm using the F.22 BIOS, it doesn't have a Plundervolt fix and undervolting still works. F.24 is out but it just says something about "additional display panels." Like I trust them.
I'm very interested in trying the 190W vBIOS mod but don't want to lose my miniDP port. I'll save that project for the next quarantine when it's out of warranty. Or when I finally buy a game that won't run at 4K, haven't found one yet!
Oh, since you were interested in noise and fan ramp--SpeedShift with EPP 64 works great on mine, it can reach max but it idles down around 800 keeping it mostly silent for Windows work (until something excites it).

 

Hi Guys
I'm just wondering : is any one here have the OMEN 17 with 4K screen to share the info ? plz ! seems like it running 3D benchmark nearly 30 FPS less than my X7 V7 ,evenly O.C core ,memory clock and screen resolution (in 1080p NOT 4K) but almost 28 FPS less is strange ! may be the 8750H ,as i heard some one mentioned the 8750H running game worse than 7700HQ ! any input will be appreciate.

 

Hi All!,
this is my little contribution to the community. I have a OMEN 17t, i7-9750H RTX 2080.
I was thinking to install a 5TB hard disk to my laptop.
"Technically" only is possible ot install up to 2TB of mechanical 2.5" HDD or 4TB-8TB os ssd. That means 7 to 9mm witdth as maximum. A mechanical 4TB or 5TB mechanical 2.5" is 15mm width so it is impossible...or not...XD. I finally achieve to install a 110 € external 5TB USB 2.5" into my HP
You can see my photos...

 

Will i be able to get 45watts on the cpu in gaming or will it be reduced to 35?

I think that was your question? The Intel 45W rating comes from all 8 cores running at the base clock, which I think is 2.3. Games don't load all 8 cores at 100%, the actual load is dynamic between your CPU and GPU, so there's really no way to manage it other than with monitoring while gaming. I use a second monitor with Afterburner for this, but the 3.8 has worked magic for me. Watts don't also translate directly to a reported CPU temp, it depends how it's distributed. Some games run hotter than others on the CPU. I also haven't found a utility that reports GPU wattage; Afterburner will show the load and frequency from which you can infer but running at 4K Ultra the 2080 doesn't always max out on mine (probably because it's gsyncd to 60 Hz). Every system is unique.
Mine runs games with the 3.8 limits. The power graph can show some spikes above 45W during loading times, but during play I've never seen a game that CPU intensive. They all seem to hover around 30 to 35.

 

hwinfo has an OSD function that can output the GPU power. Enable it in the setting then it will send the reading to RTSS

 

Hello everyone.

I got a 17-cb0020nr and would like to add some custom control of the fans.

I'm not a heavy gamer. but I would like to be able to change the fan to go on higher before 60'c as it is its only starts to ramp up at or around 70'c

Has anyone found a fan control utility that works with the 2019 model of omen? the omen command center cool sense only has the two options. normal is too weak, and max is too much when gaming at 50'c

I understand that my temps are nominal and at this time i have nothing to worry about. but would like some future proofed way of managing it so when it does become an issue (like in the middle of summer) i can control the fan a bit more.

thanks for the replies. (or lack there of) - I made a more aggressive trottlestop profile that keeps my heat at about 50'c while gaming.

since most of the game i play are not very resource hungry i found a lower balance, battery friendly profile to actually work well. since the SSD and good ram run things efficiently lower power less heat i can still play smoothly and have good temps.

Ijoined this website to hopefully get chatting with other Omen owners and find help with possible custom Bios, opening up the advanced menu HP have locked down. but it seems this thread is dead. so i'll log out and look else where for info and advice.

 

Hello.

I've made a configuration file for Notebook Fan Control. to work with the 2019 Omen 17 CB0020nr

This link has my Throttlestop folder already configured. (you need to setup auto start with windows through Task Scheduler)

And the XML file needed to make notebook fan control work - just add it to the config folder with the other XML files and the option will sohw up in the program. - (just remember to reboot before using NBFC for the first time)

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12XBqwkYOVoOjKG5kRtbfT2iU__80uwXf?usp=sharing


With these two things setup. I can run Aida stress test for hours. my laptop never goes above 65 I've edited the temperature when the fans speed up. so once it hit 65 it is usually fast enough to hold it there.

tested games like Resident evil 2 and 3. fallout 4 and a few others. all seem to run well at max or near max settings.

 

Thanks for sharing the idea with NBFC! Your config file also workes with my 2019 Omen 17 cb0230ng.
So finally i can use performance profile without the too agressive fan control

Does anybody know a programm, which can read the fan speeds? HWMonitor does not show it, Speedfan either and HWinfo64 shows not plausible values (10500-11000 rpm at fans stop and fans full)

 

Aye, the profile should technically work for all CB00 series laptops. it will most likely work for other HP laptops too, as a few of their pavilion laptops are basically the same computers just with a different case.

Even a simple program like Open Hardware monitor won`t even show there is a Fan controller in the system. it must be because it does not have the driver to detect it, like Speed fan and others. personally speaking I'm just happy to have found a program that can control the fan, better than the omen command center.

I don`t even need the command center to control any part of the laptop. the CPU profiles are managed by Throttle stop, I have it default to the standard battery profile. even while gaming its fine for me. I`d expect though that the more powerful systems may need the gaming profile to be enabled for intense or competitive gaming. then the NBFC app for the fans. I'm planning to add more fan level steps for more temperature levels. but for now its fine.

If you need a performance profile alternative, there is a profile in the throttlestop i`ve added called benchmark. its about the same or a little higher clocked than the performance profile on the command center. ( only use my throttlestop package if you have the I7 9750) its only configured for that CPU on the CB00 models. other gen CPU`s will need tweaking.

the only thing I'd need the control center for now is the Macro support. .. since I rarely use macros, as most games have customizable keyboard layouts, its virtually useless in most cases. meaning control center at this point, if you don`t use the macro keys, could be disabled or uninstalled.

If i do find an app that shows fan RPM speed I'll post it up. But out of all the fan programs I've tried messing with, I've actually never seen a field with the rpm speed in any of the apps. I've used

 

This is impressive, thanks so much. I couldn't figure it out.

 

Fan control works with a HP Pavillion 17 Gaming cd- xxx (i7-9750h, 1660-maxq).

 

F.30 BIOS out today, anyone try it yet? I'm still on F.22, really don't want a plundervolt fix.

 

Just installed f.30 coming from f.25. There doesn't seem to be any difference in performance. Running a 154 undervolt on my 9750h and 200w 2080 vbios. I'll do some benching soon

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk

 

After 12 years I finally upgraded from my still working DV7T. Can’t wait for the beast!


OMEN 17t-cb100 Laptop

• No DVD or CD Drive
• 1 TB 7200 rpm SATA; 512 GB PCIe® NVMe™ M.2 SSD
• Full-size island-style white legend 4-zone lighting RGB backlit keyboard with numeric keypad and 26-Key Rollover
• Security Software Trial
• 32 GB DDR4-2933 SDRAM (2 x 16 GB)
• OMEN by HP 17 Laptop PC
• Intel® 802.11b/g/n/ac (2x2) Wi-Fi® and Bluetooth® 5 Combo(MU-MIMO supported)
• Office Software Trial
• Windows 10 Pro 64 HIE
• 17.3" diagonal FHD 144 Hz IPS anti-glare WLED-backlit (1920 x 1080)
• HP Wide Vision HD Camera with integrated dual array digital microphone fTDB
• 4-cell, 70 Wh Li-ion polymer
• Intel® Core™ i9-10885H (2.4 GHz, up to 5.3 GHz, 16 MB L3 cache, 8 cores) + NVIDIA® GeForce® RTX 2080 Super™ (8 GB)

 

Which is the 200? I've only seen the 190W. Does your displayport work?

 

hi, i got O17 and wondering if this support Crucial XMP 3200Mhz CL16 ram. mine came with Micron(crucial)3200mhz ram but running at 2993Mhz. that might be due to lack of XMP profile.

 

I followed this guide by Damafiagamer. He has linked a 200w area 51m vbios. Unfortunately the mini display port doesn't work and I am using USB-C and HDMI.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/hp-omen-17-2019-rtx-2080-vbios-modding-190w.830760/

 

any of you guys having issues with blank external monitors on the latest nvidia drivers? Specifically USB-C to displayport/HDMI. Or is it only the guys with modded VBIOS?

 

I'm using 451.67, with the F30 BIOS. I do NOT have the vBIOS mod. Just checked with two different USB-C hubs. I don't have a thunderbolt one.
Neither worked, blue screen on the TV. In HWInfo it sees the monitor name but doesn't fill in the rest of it. Windows display settings shows monitor 3, but it's smaller than monitor 3 (both are FHD) so it's not detecting what resolution it is. Nvidia control panel doesn't show the TV at all.
Bummer, hope they fix it. I know it's not the adapters, both are verified good previously. Anyone want to volunteer to roll back their video driver and tell us if it works?

 

That's exactly what im getting too, F30 as well. Good to know its not the vbios.
446.14 is the last driver that still works.

 

There's an update for Omen Command Center via Microsoft Store (I have auto-update disabled) and the OCC SDK via HP Support Assistant. Currently running 9.8.6.0. Anyone beyond that? Does it add any more functionality?
I ask because OCC stopped working when I got this machine and it was irreparable after an update, requiring a total reinstall.

 

My keyboard button for occ stopped working recently. Not sure if it coincided with the latest occ update or the latest windows update. The app itself works though if I open it manually.

 

My key still works. Whopee. Thanks, I'll leave it be. Unless they add some amazing new feature like fan ramps or improve the keyboard lighting. I really dislike that it's A) UWP B) Runs as a service C) If you screw it up, no keyboard/fan control.

 

So just to touch base, as a user of one of the older BIOS, F22 IIRC, is there any reason to update to the latest BIOS; has anyone noticed any changes?

I have noticed recently my HP Support Assist mentions my battery calibration is screwed up but the steps don't seem to fix it, but I'm pretty sure one of the BIOS mentions battery, so they've potentially changed the software/calibration methods and that's why the error.

with F30, undervolting still works correctly, right? No plundervolt OC lock?

 

Yeah F30 is fine. It benches slightly higher. There's a bug that's developed but people seemed convinced that it's the NVidia driver and not the BIOS, that USB-C display adapters aren't working anymore (myself included). Undervolt still fine for me.
I've updated everything except Omen Command Center and its SDK which Support Assistant is whining about. Also same thing with the battery calibration--8 months old and this has never run on the battery. I explored the options and it looked too complicated to feel compelled to deal with it.

 

Can any one tell me how the fans are with this system ? . I’m thinking about sending back my alienware m15 for one . But the fans on the Aw are really quiet so trying to get some input

 

Hi I Just updated my Omen 17 (model cb-0009nl) BIOS from F.25 to F.30.
All is well and the undervolt is still possible (tested with TS 8.70 and verified with HWMonitor 1.41.
So no pludervolt in this bios update fortunately

 

I can only speak for my model (Omen 17 cb-0009nl), and fan noise is quite under control on this unit. A little bit better than my previous Asus G751JY probably. Fan noise doesn't have that 'high pitch' noise some smaller noteboks have when their smaller fans spin faster. Even on MAX FAN mode (can be set in Omen Comman Center) the noise is not that loud in my opinion.
Overall the fan system is build quite well for a gaming notebook.
You can hear the fan noise at idle/normal/max fan it in this video review if you like (the base model is similar to mine but my GPU is better).

 

Agree with this. Another nice thing is once is if the cooling system is working properly (mine wasn't as delivered) it takes a pretty significant power demand to spin up the fans. They only seem to kick up above 70C. I leave it in Performance mode all the time, and it stays perfectly silent during Zoom/Teams meetings, etc. Every now and then a misbehaving Chrome tab or Windows Defender background scan can draw over 30W on the CPU and you can hear them a little as they spin up in to medium territory, but it's nothing like playing a game and maxing out the GPU. Max fan on this isn't silent, but it's not really objectionable either and you can still game on the internal speakers. It's quieter than my old MSI GT was at full-tilt, which bothered other people in the room.

 

How is it with gaming I like fan to be quiet as possible even if I have to down clock the cpu


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Depends on the model. I've got the i9 and the 2080, there's no silent way to exhaust 200W of heat. It is really not that bad, it's quieter than a Helios 300 or a MSI. It actually is quite similar to my old HDX 16 which was DV7 platform. I game with both a headset and the speakers. On headset can't hear the fans, the speakers on this kind of suck but you can tweak them up with the Omen Audio control panel and then its good enough. I'm in a NYC apartment sitting next to my AC, there's already a lot of background noise so the fans really aren't that noticeable. When the AC runs can't even hear the computer fans.

 

Oh regarding your downclock, that will keep it silent when you're using it regularly, but as soon as that RTX gets going at 100% that's the vast majority of the heat output and it's going to go max fan or close to it. It depends on the games you play, I can run Sleeping Dogs or Prey at 4K Ultra and it doesn't hit max fan. A lot of older games just aren't that demanding to a 2080. Control or Metro Exodus will definitely max it out.

 

I just got my Omen 17t-cb100. Even at full blast during the benchmarks I ran so far. They are not bad at all. I'm also not running on the cooling pad yet. Temps are also not bad. The PSU is freaking huge though...LOL

 

Ok I have a alienware m15 r3 not and on silent mode is very quiet . It the price of the omen I might want to try it out .


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Anyone tried the F.12 Rev.A for HP Omen15-dc0000 ?
Im currently with F9, because I dont know if they removed undervolt capability. Can someone confirm? Worth upgrading? any performance/stability/heat increase/decrease?