Lenovo Thinkpad T410 Owner's Lounge

Reading through this thread I see numerous posts about playing games with the NVS 3100 card. People, listen up -- it's a business graphics card. It's not designed for gaming. It's good for CAD/CAM and other business-type graphical applications.

Check it out on:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/NVIDIA-Quadro-NVS-3100M.24738.0.html

Here's the info on the Intel Integrated HD:
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Graphics-Media-Accelerator-HD.23065.0.html

The Intel HD is pretty good for an integrated graphics system. I don't feel the discrete was worth the extra $$$ because I don't do any business graphics work and not much gaming either.

If you want a gaming laptop, get the Lenovo IdeaPad Y560 or Y460. I had a Y560 and it was awesome for gaming. But, not being much of a gamer, I traded it for an almost new T410.... I just wanted to see how well that model would perform. It was the fastest laptop I have ever owned and I've had maybe 20 of them.

 

This is a good point, however some people want a business laptop and only plan to do some light gaming. It is a good thing to keep in mind for people who only care about the fastest graphics benchmarks.

However, that page specifically refers to "business optimized drivers", which leaves open the question if different drivers were installed, might it get better performance?

 

My T410 came with 32-bit Win7 Pro (I bought it slightly used from local Craigslist ad) but it has 4GB of RAM so it's a waste of memory to use 32-bit. I have a Win7 Ultimate x64 DVD I got for attending the Windows 7 Launch Event back in October '09.

I did a clean install, wiping all partitions off the hard drive. (First, I copied the SWTOOLS folder to a flash drive -- that folder has all the drivers and software it came with). Then I started installing all the drivers & software from the flash drive; chipset and video first and then the rest. Be sure to revert your BIOS to default settings before doing all of this so that everything is enabled -- that is, if you've changed anything in there.

Everything is working perfectly and the 64-bit OS sees and uses all the RAM. The i5-520m has the AES New Instructions feature enabled, so if you want to use BitLocker to encrypt your drive it runs much faster when encrypting or decrypting. (Bitlocker only comes with Ultimate Edition, I think).

I would advise everyone to set their Power Manager > Battery > Advanced settings to "Battery Lifespan" and set the stop charging to 95% and the start charging to 80% or thereabouts. The worst thing you can do is apply a charge to an already full battery. Also, don't ever fully deplete your battery. A battery engineer told me that Lithium-Ion batteries will develop copper crystals in the fluid if they are repeatedly fully discharged. He advised to never let the battery get below 20% capacity. Batteries are expensive, make them last.

If you are concerned about heat (and you should be), don't use it on your lap. This blocks the air-intake vents and the laptop can't cool itself properly. Always use it on a hard, flat surface. Office supply and computer stores sell these "Laptop LapDesk" things which have a cushioned pad with a hard and flat surface on top for the laptop to sit on.

I didn't install Norton Internet Security or any anti-virus software because I use Linux to surf the web (I'm dual-booting Windows 7 & Ubuntu 10.04). NIS will slow your computer down a lot like just about all anti-virus software will. So I use Linux for web-surfing (no worries about malware because 99.9% of it is written to attack Windows) and use Windows for everything else.

BTW, for you Linux Geeks out there, ThinkPads have always been, from the beginning, very Linux-friendly and I have no hardware or drivers problems with mine -- nor did I with previous ThinkPads running Linux.

 

Different drivers from whom? From where? Nvidia's drivers are sometimes "optimized" for system manufacturers for specific models, but I can't speak to this since my T410 has the Intel HD only.

I was just pointing out that the ThinkPad line is designed primarily for business apps, not gaming, so buyers shouldn't expect much in the gaming realm even if they do go for the discrete graphics option. I'm very happy with the Integrated Intel HD graphics -- it's pretty good for integrated... best I've seen, so far.

From what I understand, the NVS Quadro drivers are optimized for business graphics. Trying to use other, customized drivers may or may not work. They might not even install considering how fussy Windows is about drivers.

 

This site is dedicated to getting drivers working that will get more out of your graphics than the default drivers: NVIDIA & Laptop News | Latest NVIDIA drivers and related news | laptopvideo2go.com I don't do this myself, but I have seen reports from others who have had success.

 

Thanks! Good to know. +1 rep.

 

News Flash:
Anyone looking for a slightly used T410s (note the "s").
Someone locally here is selling one:

EDIT: Nevermind.... it's now been sold. (link removed)

 

We're all aware of that, we just think it's stupid, limiting, and an excuse.

Business graphics and consumer graphics are *EXACTLY THE SAME CHIPS*. The NVS3100m is a GT210m. That's WHAT it is.

There is no reason why lenovo can't include decent graphics chips in their machines. The NVS 3100m is only twice as fast as intel integrated graphics. That is PATHETIC. Anyone interested in making the battery sacrifice for dedicated graphics is going to want dedicated graphics that are actually worth having. Intel integrated graphics are good enough for CAD now. People don't buy dedicated graphics for CAD, they buy it so they can play games on the road. Which is what I use mine for.

We hear this excuse about basically every shortcoming on the machine.
Why is the screen terrible? Oh, it's a business laptop, there's no need to be able to read it well.
Why are the speakers almost unusably quiet? Oh, it's a business laptop, you won't need speakers.
Why are the dedicated graphics only twice as powerful as integrated graphics? Oh, it's a business laptop.

There is nothing stopping lenovo from making the dedicated graphics option a PREMIUM option. As it is, the 3100m is simply barely worth it. It cuts an hour off the battery and is only marginally faster than integrated.

 

Well, looking back over many posts, apparently a lot of folks are not aware of it. And yes, I agree that Lenovo should offer more graphics options for ThinkPads. Gamers deserve good build-quality too, not just business users.

And yes, they may be the same chips (GPU) by another name, but the drivers are optimized for business applications, not games. I suppose you could try using the driver for the "other-named, but same" GPU and maybe get better gaming performance. But since it has a different name, it may not install -- or not install properly. Then there's the issue of "unsigned" drivers that Windows 7 will scream about. There's a bypass for that, you can "force-feed" Windows a driver, but it's kind of risky and unpredictable.

For all those complaining about the screen: For the week I've had my T410, everyone who sees it is very impressed with the screen (after I turn it up to max brightness). I haven't tweaked the settings in the graphics program at all. Just maxed the brightness with the FN+Home keys. What impresses them seems to be the lack of reflection. They all have consumer-grade laptops with glossy screens that makes it nearly impossible for them to see anything unless they're in a darkened room. Yeah, I know, the colors look better on the glossy screens but what good is that if you can't see them thru the reflections?

EDIT: I notice this thread has gotten very quiet lately. Hmmm, I take that as a good sign. People are not storming in here asking to have problems resolved -- that's always a good sign. I think the T410 is a winner.

 

First impressions of my new T410

I just got my T410 and want to share my first impressions of the machine. Please keep in mind I am not a tech guy, I'm just a regular consumer with little technical knowledge.

Here are the specs on my machine:

Win 7 32-bit
Intel i5 M 540 @ 2.53 GHz
4 GB RAM
integrated graphics
320 HDD (too small... almost used it up already)

As far as specs go, I'm only disappointed in the HDD size. I wish I'd gotten a bigger one because it's almost already full (less than 40 GB remaining), but I got this for less than $900 inclusive of tax/shipping so can't really complain about the specs.

First impressions: the machine is very solid. A lot heavier than my previous razor-thin carbon-fiber Sony VAIO SZ-series, but a lot sturdier.

I noticed right off the great speed of start-up and shut-down. Nothing less than amazing. It takes about 45 or 50 seconds from the time I press the "on" button to when I'm browsing the web via WiFi. Shutdown time is also really quick.

The power brick is very small and light. I really appreciate this, as I often travel.

This machine is a bit heavy to pick up with one hand by the corner (like I could with my VAIO) but when I do pick it up by the corner, there is no flex. It's very solid.

I've used it for a couple weeks, and I really like the keyboard. I type much faster than I can speak, so I really need a keyboard that can respond quickly to commands and feel comfortable and sturdy. I give the keyboard an A+

I've noticed that some people have complained about the placement of certain keys (especially FN). I personally don't mind it much, but it is a problem sometimes because whenever I switch language input from English to Chinese, I have to press CTRL and SPACE (this is a pretty common shortcut in China for switching between languages). Obviously I'm used to the CTRL key being in the far left, so my typing can be a bit slowed down by this.

The ThinkLight is way cool and useful, especially when I wake up at 3 a.m. and want to check e-mail or work stuff. I also like being able to use this on the plane, so that I don't disturb other sleeping passengers by turning on the overhead reading light.

I appreciate that the ThinkLight is so easy to turn on by pressing the top right and bottom left keys.

Other keyboard shortcuts seem easy, such as FN+F5 for Bluetooth/WiFi.
Pressing FN also enables the bottom right set of keys to be used for pause, play, stop, and forward/backward for media. This is useful in iTunes.

Have not used the other shortcuts yet, but they seem well-organized.

I love that the CAPSLOCK has a light on it (on the keyboard) so it's so easy to know when it's turned on. There's also an on-screen indicator that flashes in the bottom right when you turn it on or off.

I also do like the large DELETE key. Having it large makes it much easier to use. Not sure why the ENTER key is blue. Doesn't detract, but doesn't seem to add anything either.

Have not used the mouse buttons much, yet, nor have I used the nipple mouse much. So far, not impressed with the touchpad / mouse / pointer system. I often can't figure out how to get the scroll function to work in certain programs. Seemed much easier on my VAIO.

Also, I don't like the feeling of the T410 touchpad as well as that on the Edge I tried out, or on my VAIO.

Other likes:
*The hinges that hold the screen are pretty great; very sturdy.
*The volume controls are very easy to use, and it's easy to mute the computer.
*WiFi receiver seems strong. No problems.
*Bluetooth works fine and has a clean interface, though I can't figure out how to choose where to save files I transfer to the T410 from my phone.
* The always-powered USB hub on the righthand side works great for charging my iPod or Nokia while my computer is off. Will definitely save me space when I travel, as I don't have to pack as many wall chargers.

The integrated camera works fine. I've had great quality video calls with my girlfriend on it. I've used the mic to make regular audio calls with Skype and sometimes it works well and other times the person says they can't hear me well. This may be a Skype issue, not a hardware issue, not sure yet.

Okay, that was the good, now for the bad.

Screen quality is really disappointing. If I move my head just a little bit, I don't get a good view. I have to keep the monitor tilted just right or colors appear off and washed-out.

Black in general appears quite washed out on the screen. Have not been impressed with watching movies on the screen. I know there are different types of screens for computers, but I find it strange that my VAIO (which was 3 years older) had a vastly, incredibly, amazingly crisp and colorful screen (viewable from nearly any angle) and this new laptop which is much newer has a screen which, quite frankly, sucks to look at.

That said, the frame around the screen is very good quality, and if I press the back, the screen doesn't flex and "discolor" like my Sony did.

Sometimes I'll watch a movie with a friend on my laptop, but I don't think it will be as good on this laptop as the viewing angle is constricted.

Also, sometimes when I tilt the screen, it looks like I can actually see a 'grid' on the screen; this makes things look really pixelated.

The other disappointment is also in the A/V department: the sound.

Wow, are these speakers crappy! I have a Nokia 5800 phone with integrated speakers, and music played on those speakers sounds much better than anything I play on this laptop.

That's right, my cell phone's speaker sounds much more rich and real than the T410's tinny speakers. Really disappointing!

Lastly, I haven't yet been able to get a mic headset to work with this computer. It has only one jack for a combo headset. I've heard iPhone headsets work well, but don't have one. I do have a combo headset (single jack) for my Nokia phone, and the earphones work fine, but the mic doesn't pick up much. I know the mic works fine when it's used with my Nokia phone, but it does not work with this computer. Not sure what the reason is.

_____________________________

Overall grade A

The lackluster screen and truly terrible speakers keep me from giving this machine an A+ but it's amazing build quality and suuuuuper fast Win7 operating system almost make up for it.

 

Duuuuuude, how do you have 280gb on your primary drive?

You can switch the Ctrl and Fn keys in the BIOS, though to me it always made sense to have the key I use more (ctrl) closer to the rest of the keys to improve one-hand typing ability (I can do ctrl+L with my left hand alone the way Thinkpads are laid out, but it would take 2 hands to do it the way other laptops are laid out). I think it's worth getting used to the change.

The Enter key is blue because of tradition. The non-typing related keys (like the F keys and the page back/forward keys) used to be gray too. The thought is it helps for usability to make certain keys stand out.

On the mic quality changing at times, go into the SmartAudio software and make sure it's set for VoIP.

You'd probably get better blacks if you performed a hardware based calibration on the screen.

 

Due to formatting, a 320 GB drive has only about 300 GB of usable space, so it's more like 260 GB... It's mostly videos, DVD rips, and iTunes. Hmmm... is it a bad thing to have that much on a primary drive?

Good point, and I probably won't change it. I really only have an issue with this when I'm doing CTRL+SPACE to switch between typing in Chinese and English. It doesn't bother me when I do CTRL+C for copying, etc.

Ah, okay.

 

No, there's nothing wrong with having a lot of data on the main drive. That's what it's there for. I agree that 320 is a bit small these days, especially with the size of HD video files.

You might be interested in an article I wrote: Where's All My Disk Space Going In Vista? | directedge.us

 

Unless things have changed, with the right software you can make your hard drive faster if you have less data on it because the transfer rates are faster on the outside of the platter.
At any rate, I was just amazed because even on my T60 that is over 3 years old, I've used less than 60gb, but then, I keep files I don't use often (photo backups for instance) on a separate hard drive.

 

@panyan:
You didn't say which screen you have. Is it the WXGA (1280x800) or the WXGA+ (1440x900) ? I have the latter and after making some adjustments to the color settings in the Intel HD Graphics Control program, it's much better than the default settings.

As far as hard drive space: Like someone else said, I keep my large data and media files on an external hard drive so there's always room for large downloads or program installation. Another option is to create a separate partition for your data/media files so you don't cramp your OS drive.

If you click on "Computer" while in explorer and your C: drive shows a red bar instead of green, you've got too much on your operating system drive. This will cause your computer to get slower and slower because Windows needs space to write temporary files, which it does almost constantly. You can free up some space if you don't use hibernation: Open an administrative command prompt and type:
"powercfg -h off". This will free up around 3 GB. (The "hiberfil.sys" file will disappear. You can see it with "dir /a/o".)

 

As an IT pro for over 10 yrs, I can say that this is a myth. A full disk drive performs no slower or faster than an empty one. The only possibility is that certain areas of a disk are faster than others, so if the full disk can only write in the slower areas, that would impact, but it has nothing to do with temp files. The only really major problem that's caused by a full disk is slow or impossible defrag. Windows makes the bar red just to draw your attention to it.

 

And with Win7 this myth is even more history!

 

Definitely true about defrag. It will take forever on a full disk that is badly fragmented.

 

I'm about to buy a t410 but considering a few things. How would the discrete or integrated graphics handle video editing? I don't need great GPU performance but videography and video playback are big points for me.

Also, how big is the case against the t410s keyboard? I really want a Thinkpad particularly for the keyboard, but if there's noticeable flex amongst the t410 models I really have to reconsider.

 

Some have reported flex on palmrest or keyboard. I have neither on mine, it's rock-solid.

I can't speak to video editing but I'm very impressed with the Intel HD -- all video, even hi-def 1080 plays smoothly. It is reportedly twice as powerful as the previous integrated GPU (4500MHD) they were including with the Core2 Duo machines. The new one is 5700MHD.

The screen is another matter. You'll probably want to pipe your video output to an external HD monitor for video editing. It's a good screen but not ideal for video-intensive work. Get the DisplayPort adapter to hook it up to HDMI or DVI. Just my opinion.

 

Okay, thanks for the input. The Intel HD you speak of, is this in regards to discrete graphics? I'm debating whether or not I should sacrifice some video power and get more battery life, or the opposite with discrete.

 

The Intel HD is the integrated graphics. The discrete is an Nvidia card that has drivers optimized for business applications. It's maybe twice as powerful as the integrated Intel HD and consumes a lot more power. I'm guessing you'd be fine with the integrated. That will give you more battery life and bring down the cost of the computer.

 

Unless they dropped switchable graphics in the T410 there's no reason discrete graphics would consume more power when you didn't need it. The 4500MHD that came in my first T400 wasn't quite up to the task of playing all HD content smoothly using dxva, but I think the T410 integrated graphics is far better.

If the T410 intel graphics is adequate now, you need to ask yourself whether you game, use gpu intensive software like cad etc or watch HD flash content which you need to discrete graphics to hardware-accelerate (dxva).

 

The T410 does not have switchable graphics as far as I know. Just the T410s.

 

Flash is CPU (not GPU) intensive, unless you're using Flash 10.1 which, last I heard, was still in beta and rather buggy.

 

10.1 is out of Beta...but you'll want to turn off hardware acceleration.

 

Flash HD is cpu intensive which is exactly why you want to hardware accelerate it.

marlin, why do you say that?

 

Because it doesn't seem to work well.

 

What gpu are you using? I'll find out how well it really works when my T400 with the 3470 arrives.

Without hw acceleration a P8600 is at around 85-90% cpu load when playing BBC HD.

 

Whether it's my T60 with a v5200 or my X201 with the Intel HD, stuff works fine with hardware acceleration turned off, but I get occasional pauses in playback with it turned on. This is the first flash to have hardware acceleration I think, so maybe that's why.

 

I'm about to purchase. The Intel HD integrated option seems fine for my use--the most I'd be pushing video demands would be in watching a DVD in high-def. Any insight? I'd like to save battery power with the integrated option, but the discrete might be worth it if I truly need it.

 

Well, only you can answer the question of "worth it if I truly need it".
Here are a couple links with info about the Nvidia card and the Intel HD:

Notebookcheck: NVIDIA Quadro NVS 3100M

Notebookcheck: Intel Graphics Media Accelerator HD

They are both "Class 3" graphics solutions for laptops. The Nvidia is higher on the list on the right, as you can see. But it's not really for gaming, if that's your point. For gaming, get an IdeaPad Y Series with an ATI card. I had one of those and it was pretty awesome, performance-wise.

 

I never have figured out if a discrete GPU is needed for anything other than gaming and graphic design. So far, I have come across nothing other than those two things that needs it, but maybe I'm missing something?

 

The main thing other than gaming and graphic design is going to be flash based HD content and even more so in the [near] future. I had a T60p with the V5200. It wasn't very good at hardware-acceleration for even .mkv files. Flash HD is just well past it's time.

The laptop I'm typing this on is a T400 with Intel 4500MHD. It's not great either. Playing movies with dxva on, scenes occasionally break up because it can't properly decode/resolve them. Haven't tried HD flash but I imagine it won't be great.

From what I understand though, the Intel graphics in the T410 is a lot better than the 4500MHD and the processor is obviously way ahead of the Core2Duo. So it should be a lot better than the T400 in it's effectiveness to hw accelerate. But the point of a discrete gpu will always be that it can do the job more efficiently. You can turn down the cpu and let the gpu handle the processing.

The down side in the T410 is that while you'll save power by using the gpu while watching HD content with low cpu usage/load, you'll use more power all other times. So I think it definitely makes sense to get the integrate graphics since it's also cheaper. Unless Lenovo releases switchable graphics for this model through a driver update.

 

They say the Intel HD in the new models is roughly twice as strong as the 4500MHD. The new one is a 5700MHD. It does the job for me, for flash and anything else I throw at it, except for recent games which, of course, it's not designed for. You can play older games with it. I ran Half-Life 2 on high detail and it was smooth.

 

It is, but it's the same one that's in the X201. The thing I don't get, is why bother with hardware acceleration if the same things work flawlessly with it off on either my T60 with a T7400 or my X201 with an i5-520m?

 

It's not a question of whether it'll work or not, it's about efficiency. I'm at 90% cpu load with a P8600 (at full clock speed) playing some HD flash content. Batteries don't last very long when the cpu is taxed that much.

 

Tax the CPU, tax the GPU. Either way you lose your charge faster. (Depending on which GPU you're using.)

 

When the gpu does it, it's a lot more efficient. It's designed to perform just those functions.

 

I was just playing some 1080p video on youtube and my T60 with its T7400 cpu was only at like 50-60% utilization.

 

And it's a ton lower gpu decoded. Even 50-60% utilization zaps battery let alone 90%.

Go play some HD content with low compression like what's on the BBC site. It'll easily get up to and stay at 85-90%.

 

Where on BBC do I find such video? I'm not seeing any HD video here....

 

BBC iPlayer - BBC HD - All programmes - Page 1

 

Typical BBC, no HD video for the US. I swear they hate us.
Or I guess they just don't want us reaping the benefits of the TV tax. Still, they could show us advertisements and make money off us at least.

 

I use a vpn connection, it's a pita.

But I think you might have missed my earlier post in which I said integrated graphics would be better in the T410 because of it's much better gpu and cpu, and lack of switchable graphics. If it's slightly buggy decoding flash at the moment, that's because it's the first iteration of hw-based flash decoding player and will surely improve in the near future.

 

Well I just kinda wanted to see what kind of CPU utilization numbers I'd have gotten with those videos on my X201. Because 1080p on youtube (which is pointless because the 201x doesnt have a 1080p screen...) only uses like 24% cpu on this.

 

What's odd is playing BBC HD this P8600 isn't much better than my T2500 was, 5% difference.

 

Try something like this:

YouTube - BBC Motion Gallery - Life in the Blue (HD) 1080p

Select 1080p from the 360p selection. Water is always a good example of viewing quality, although this encode doesn't look that good for HD.

For some reason the Flash 10.1 release doesn't work as well as some of the RC versions. Odd. Claims HW acceleration on these Intel HD drivers, but given the CPU use, I wonder..

Silverlight 1080p uses much lower CPU, and an MP4 file almost nothing.

 

Yes. I wish Lenovo would get their finger out and update the Intel HD drivers.

The latest June'10 Intel driver version release notes specifically mentions fixes from Flash. Having 6 month old drivers on new technology is annoying. Saying that, the current drivers are stable. I just know that there are some improvements coming...

 

Eh, even with the water, still 30-40%.