MacBook Pro 2012 - a better Thinkpad?

I tend to believe Lenovo's explanation here, actually: that it would cost more to get 4:3 panels, and they don't want to do it unless it's an absolute sure thing, profit-wise.

That doesn't mean I like it.

There's a reason that all my work and home office LCDs are 5:4 or 4:3. Personally I think that anything "wider" than 4:3 is sub-optimal -- whether it sucks because it's 16:10 or it sucks because it's 16:9... that doesn't matter too much to me. Both are inferior as far as I'm concerned.

 

Exactly. Which is where competition comes in, by educating consumers that a laptop does not necessarily have to come with a such a bad screen for the requested amount of money. Especially, if it's not a particularly cheap laptop, and $150+ was paid for the screen update (even though the very panel is sold at various parts sites @ $80/piece, and obviously not at loss).

But it does not have to be a custom panel. If Apple could find a vendor, producing their 15.4" screens, why Lenovo can't go to the same one? If HP could offer Dreamcolor version of the 16:9 15.6", why can't it be in Lenovo W520 as +500 option too?

And besides, somehow the likes of Sony etc manage to produce devices like Sony P series (actually have that one still), with about the same PPI as the current RMBP screen, just 1/4 of the physical size. These were obviously niche and low volume devices by design, and were probably custom LCDs, and while expensive, they didn't cost anywhere near $5k. Or $10k. Or even $2k.

We aren't even asking. Just discussing the premise that a vendor, ordering 50M devices to be sold under its brand, can't offer certain options, not even at additional cost, because of bad suppliers/bad clients/weather/whatever. To me, this sounds precisely as a deliberate business decision.

Hopefully, the competition with others, including Apple making a big fuss out of pixels (which are largely useless at this screen size, I agree, but wow effect has been achieved), and consumer self-education by using decent screens in tablets and mobile phones, will explain to Lenovo why they should better start paying attention to these little details.

Megapixel race in monitors, mobile and, much more importantly, desktop ones, can't come soon enough.

 

I hope so.

Still, I've given up hope on "consumer education" for the most part. I like 4:3 because I spend many, many hours a day working with text (primarily 80-char-wrapped source code, in fact) widescreens are a complete waste for that. But convincing people to ditch 16:9 when movies, Facebook, and (most) games all benefit from it? Yeah... I've just resigned myself to being in a poorly-served niche.

But who knows. I never thought that marketing could make people care about viewing angles or resolution, but lo and behold...

 

It's probably time to upgrade from JES 2 to JES 3.

 

Notably the reviewers found the new chiclet to be better than Apple's. This is notable because most reviewers are generally pretty loyal to Apple.

As for the keyboard survey. I'm pretty sure they surveyed
1. Thinkpad enthusiasts in Japan. They would be used to the Thinkpad keyboard.
2. Companies that buy Thinkpads for their employees.
3. Users of Thinkpads in those companies. They would also be used to the Thinkpad keyboard.

Personally, I find the chiclet keycaps a move in the right direction and the getting rid of the 7th row a move in the wrong. Though considering that Lenovo was the last company left with 7 row keyboards, it seems like my opinion is pretty minority.

As for Dell. I actually think they sell less Latitudes than Lenovo does Thinkpads or HP does EliteBooks. If anything Dell should look at Lenovo and not the other way around.

As for direction of Thinkpads, I want reliability, durability, ergonomics, portability, and battery life. I think those will still matter to businesses in the foreseeable future so I'm good.

As for consumer grade Thinkpads. lolwut. Thinkpads will always be business grade machines, the only factor is what businesses demand.

And unless you happen to be buying 5000 new MBPs instead of 5000 Thinkpads, Lenovo really doesn't care.

You do realize that screens are bigger than the part that shows pretty pictures, and that there are much more things in the screen assembly than just the display panel. Right?

16:10 might be possible, maybe with something using technology like in the Shuriken displays, but with a higher ppi. 4:3 is definitely out.

Thus you are corporate sheep. Welcome to the club.

They CAN offer it at additional cost, but it wouldn't sell well enough to break even or make profit. So it is a deliberate business decision and good decision in a "we are a business out to make money" sense.

I don't think Lenovo needs explaining to. I think they understand, but whether or not they understand doesn't matter since its whether the customers understand and are willing to pay. So it's the customers that need explaining to, so they will start demanding, so Lenovo will start producing.

Agreed.

 

1. Display, 2880x1800

this resolution for a gt650m you get 2 things. much resolution for a little screen. maybe if macbook pro have a 32" screem this resolution is OK LOL!

and much resolution for a midle range video card, gt650m, maybe if Macbook PRO have a gtx680m, it is ok LOL.

I do not know what happining in the brain in the apple PPL to made this resolution for a 15 and 17 screem and for use with this GPU.

BR

 

I don't think Apple ever will, since it's counter to their philosophy of solving all the problems for the end user. It sells higher resolution on the basis of clearer text and details provided by having more actual pixels, and some users would complain that the native resolution is unusably high.

What's too small for someone may not be too small for someone else. I love the FHD screen on the Sony Z, but many others think text is too small.

If the MBP's primary purpose was to game, then yes, that would be useless. But it's not, and so the 650 packs enough power.

Besides, you don't need to use the native resolution to game, as the pixels are so small. Even on my WSXGA+ screen, I don't think native resolution is necessary in FPS games, although RTS games still do benefit from it.

 

Just throwing this in here for giggles, but for the "Thinkpad X240" to have the same level of "retina-ness" (1 arcminute subtending angle between pixels at 16 inches away), the screen would need to be 2560x1440 (the same that is in most high end 27 inch monitors).

I used 16 inches (distance from screen) for the 15.4" retina MBP and 15 inches for the 12.5 "X240" because of the 3 inch diagonal difference.

All I can say is, if Lenovo announces that kind of screen (no TN please) in the X240, it will be on pre-order. They won't be able to get my money fast enough.

 

If Lenovo offers even a TN 1600x900 display on the next X-series, I'd be very sorely tempted. 1920x1080 or better, and I'll be upgrading

 

I believe in a 15 or 17" screen, you will ned a microscope to read in 2880x1800

FHD in 15, I fill very small the characters. most time use a 125% zoon in screen to my eyes not cry.

it is just numbers. because much people buy the bigher, the CPU with more GHz, the screem with more resolution, the VGA with more GB. and much times, it is not the best for the use.

in games, you are righ, the FPS go down, very down. but for all the use the screen wil be slow. is like you get a macmini with nv9400 and use it in a 1600x900 display and use it in a FHD+ display. you fill diferent and slow all, until the dock.

BR

 

Apple has much fewer laptops in their line up so their volume per each laptop is much higher hence cost is decreased substantially. Why they had no Ips panel is purely a design consideration. Lenovo wanted to focus on battery life and Intel integrated graphics does not support 10 but panels. Hp designed their product around Ips and didn't even set up optimus.

This doesn't apply to Apple since their os doesn't actually give that resolution. From reviews, the effective resolution is less due to scaling. For example if their resolution is effectively 1440x900 they have 4 (2x2) pixels to represent 1 pixel making it theoretically sharper looking. so it will be sharper when compared to a similar wxga+ panel but you not get the increased real estate that people think you do nor do you get really small fonts because of this.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

No. That makes it worse, not better. 4:1 is what causes blurry text and apps that look bad. When you have 1:1 scaling, you get the sharpest and best looking image possible.

Apple scales when it deems it necessary (ie apps haven't been updated for the retina display). It really is a 2880x1800 screen.

 

I don't think Apple makes an immediate profit now, over its relatively low volume 15" pro model. And it's quite possible they're not going to in this generation at all, with all the work that went to improving OS etc. But it's a flagship model, it's an advertisement too.

Lenovo needs to start doing the same IMO. Premium laptops (like X1, the Txx0s version etc) don't sell in huge volumes, but screen is one of their major issues. And, I'm sure, it would cost little to update their screen with something of high resolution & decent quality, relatively to the rest of the effort went to this model. Even getting a TN similar in quality to 15.6 FHD would make them really fantasic devices, that customers buy happily, enjoy using and buy Lenovo again.

 

This statement is only true for windows. Read the anandtech article on scaling. While the panel is that resolution, the MBP doesn't actually actually offer that and scales it in all modes (the default mode is how I described above).

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk

 

4:1 is as sharp as 1:1 (which is the sole reason they went for it). In theory.

Problems start with apps that do their own off-screen rendering and draw text with sub-pixel rendering on bitmaps, that then go to screen. Then all this subpixel stuff suddenly breaks, and things like File:Subpixel w.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia start to show up. All applications doing this (and there are many), need to be updated.

 

When done properly, the new 2880x1800 resolution keeps things at the same size but much more defined (sharper, as in a focused photo). Example courtesy The Verge:



It is not scaling, in this case.

 

hum it is intriguing how the RMBP do with the Windows OS.

 

Mine just arrived. Going through 1st boot now.

 

I doubt the will be much change from the "normal": half trackpad features, GPU only, poor power management.

Resolution wise there are no major problems with DPI set to 150 or even 200 in Windows 7 or 8, if one is using only major apps from major vendors (which people easily switching OS-es generally do).

 

PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN! lol jk, but definitely let us know your experience

 

Forums need a "Like" button... for these occasions!

 

So much for getting any work done today.

 

Wondering why the Moiré effect on the background picture.

In any event, enjoy!

 

Good thing Lenovo didn't think of getting that screen, putting it into a slightly modified W530 frame, calling it "W5 Titanium" (or use any other buzzword) and sell it for $2.5k. Cause then I'd be down $2.5k...

 

Good thing indeed, as a proper name for it would be Ideapad Y590. Glossy screen in W series would be a good time to start looking for another laptop brand for me

 

Thanks. I guess the bad pic is from my point and shoot. I don't have a good DSLR.

 

very nice! i have a 4 year old hp laptop that i installed an ssd drive in and it's perfect for me and still runs without an issue. i am so close to getting the new retina mbp though - i saw the screen in person and it's absolutely unparalleled to anything i've seen on a laptop before...

enjoy your new machine!

 

Hopefully it is only a matter of time before other manufacturers (are you reading this Lenovo?) start putting these higher resolution screens into their 15.4 inch laptops.

 

FHD on the Z still is usable for some. I don't think full resolution no scaling on the RMBP would be usable for anyone.

The T4x0s and X1 are still much higher volume machines than the Sony Z or RMBP. Their last halo product laptop, the X30x series was cut in favor of the cheaper T4x0s since they couldn't get enough volume on the X30x to make it worth continuing.

I would hope that it would be worth it putting high quality panels on their premium machines, but it doesn't seem like it is. Hopefully customers will realize the benefits of a good screen now that good screens are pretty normal on phones and stuff.

 

2 insteresting links
HOWTO: 2880x1800 Without Scaling in OS X - MacRumors Forums

up to 3840*2400 res for you to choose on OSX

Gamers - I got my 15" Retina $2799 - Have questions? - MacRumors Forums

drivers for the 650m on windows

 

Well, it's true. It's definitely the best notebook screen I've ever seen. Fusion just smokes on this machine with the additions installed. The VM at 1920x1200 full screen with Windows 7 set at 125% DPI is amazingly easy to read and use.

Anand is going to post some instructions on how he bootcamped his Retina and what drivers he used. Looking forward to trying the native 2880x1800 resolution with Windows 8 at 125% and 150% DPI. That should be fun.

This is not your Dad's ThinkPad. As we have discussed already, there is no comparison other than speed. This VM is nearly as fast at my i7 Optimus T420.

[UPDATE] I just finished installing the Windows Update updates. The VM is now running at 3840x2400. I am not kidding about this. Holy crap.

 

Lenovo's apparently coming to their senses with X1 Carbon, having a decent 1600x900 matte TN from LG instead of the usual stuff, with almost 1.5x brighness of the FHD screen, so quite usable outdoors too.

If they let T4xx series have it, and add a decent IPS screen option with the same resolution to X240 models, dark times of poor screens will be over.

 

Thor do you have a screen calibrator? ( Spyder etc )I would love to get more Calibrated gamut data. sofar true color accuracy seems to be off especially in the greens.

 

Really glad you are so excited like this! I envy you Does this mean you are no longer a ThinkPad?

 

Baaahhhh.

Really though, I'm not sure what your point is. I think that they shifted to 16:9 because it's cheaper to do so. That is -- at least as I read it -- what the blog entry was stating. Is that not why you think they did it? Or do you think they moved to 16:9... why? Just to spite their users?

The X30x used a pretty awful display though. It had poor contrast, low brightness, very narrow viewing angles, and worst of all it was a custom part so you couldn't even upgrade it on your own! From what I've gleaned, they did it because it allowed them to make the lid that much thinner, but... damn. If there ever was a demonstration that thin isn't everything, this was it!

At least as far as screens are concerned, the T4x0s is a massive improvement over the X30x.

 

And for the "pics or it didn't happen crowd", here's a pic.

That's IE9 at 100% zoom on bungie.net. I haven't installed Chrome or FireFox in the VM yet. Or any other apps for that matter.

Freaky man, really freaky.

 

My point was welcoming you to the club of people that actually think Lenovo has good reasoning behind their decisions.

 

I'm sure you plan on dialing up the magnification a little?

 

And now all it needs is a little button, pressing which the 15.4" will transform itself into a nice 31" screen. Or 32". For 27" it's a bit too small

 

From the standpoint of a geek or the standpoint of businessman?

From a business standpoint, I do think they have good reasoning. Given their constant growth and increasing revenues I can't help but believe that they have good business judgement. (I've never done product development a multi-million dollar hardware company, so maybe I'm way off on this... but what they said seems to make sense.)

That doesn't mean that I think that the end result is good for people like myself though. In fact, the end result is quite demonstrably inferior for my use cases (and probably for a large number of people on this forum.) Understanding and agreeing with the logic of a decision doesn't imply support of the outcome.

 

No need. Even at 150% DPI for the OS, the desktop environment at that resolution is pretty useless on a 15.4" screen.

The only reason I set IE9 at 100% is to give you an idea of how much vertical display it was really getting. I started to use CNN or ESPN as an example, but I decided Halo was much cooler.

I dropped the VM back to 1920x1200 and 125%. It's really nice on that setting.

On the question of will I continue to use ThinkPads, the answer is yes. I can't take a Mac into my client locations. I would have to seek new employment in order to do that. So I will always have company owned and paid for assets for real work. Not sure if they'll remain ThinkPads or not.

I plan to keep my personal ThinkPads, too. But that is going to depend on the wife. If she ever moves to a Mac, all the personal ThinkPads will be sold. In her case it will likely be a MacBook Air but I need a drop proof bomb proof case for her. She tortures machines.

 

girls in general torture their tech stuff. my ex went through 2 laptops and a couple of iphones within 2 years.... :|

as for your last screenshot - holy crap! i cant believe that's on a LAPTOP!


aside - post # 1001, complaining about my ex. now that's classy.

 

Yes us women torture our gear why else did my husband get me an x220 and a Toughbook CF-31 for on the road.

come to think of it our daughters arent much better

 

Personally I'm going to keep using a ThinkPad for my laptop, but my need for a laptop is decreasing by the year. I suppose eventually the screen/keyboard/etc. issues won't matter at all since it's easy to get good desktop screens and buckling spring keyboards last forever...

 

THIS.

I use different tools at different times of the day and of the week. For example, I did not get an X220 because I don't need IPS for such a device: an iPad and a large IPS desktop panel are much more satisfying.

 

After installing Office for Mac and doing some other tweaks to OS X (security related ), I decided to install Windows 8 in a VM. That worked as flawlessly as Windows 7 under Fusion though I could not get it to go all the way up to the 3840x2400. It topped out at 2560x1900 or something like that.

So I figured what the heck, time to try bootcamp.

I am running Windows 8 x64 RP at 2880x1800 right now. I bumped the DPI percentage to 175 and disabled the adaptive brightness under the power profile.

Device manager shows no banged out drivers after installing the Windows Support. As expected, only the NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M is shown under the device mgr Display adapters node.

I appears the trackpad, hotkeys, backlighting and everything else is working properly. I don't know yet how well it's going to cool, and how the battery will perform.

I'm pretty astonished at what I am looking at here. This was just a test install. I will probably nuke it and re-partition. Screw OS X !!!

 

One more post then I'll STFU if you want me to.

Here's the WEI score from my bootcamped MacBook Pro Retina running at full native resolution with Windows 8.

Who was it that said Windows 8 sucks? Eat this!!!

 

Something is enviously wrong with those numbers!

 

The W530 with a good Samsung SSD should produce similar numbers.

It appears I found a bug. The bootcamp control panel seems to have some sort of issue on Windows 8. So you can't get at some of the properties, change the startup disk, etc. I also think the fast hibernate and resume for Windows 8 is screwing with the control panel applet.

I am going to nuke the Windows 8 install and re-create my stick with Windows 7. I'll see if the issue is reproduced with Windows 7.

Seems pretty minor so I'm sure that will get worked out over the next month or two. If you want to flip between the OSes, you have to remember to use the Mac option key.

Time for a cold one.

 

I havent encountered your bugs on bootcamp, I do have a mbp 13 2011 though. in the bootcamp control panel I just click the os, and press apply, it determines which OS it will start again in the next boot.

Win 7 AFAIK has problems with the resolution, you are going to rely on nvidia for that

have you used the modded inf that I posted? it should make the 650m usable