MacBook Pro 2012 - a better Thinkpad?

This thread seem to have just turned into a macbook thread, is there really a point of this thread anymore (Was there ever?)

 

I think the point became more of an interest from genuine enthusiasts.

I recognize the discussion about a MacBook Pro doesn't belong here so I'll head over to the various Apple forum areas.

To close the loop on my latest test, the bootcamp control application works fine with Windows 7. I rebuild the bootcamp stick, partition and reinstalled. There is no need for a modded .INF because the Apple Support and NVIDIA drivers are working perfectly with Windows 7 at 2880x1800.

Signing off from this thread. Fing thread killer.

 

i appreciate the info youve been giving, thors!

 

I was referring more to the general bashing couple pages back but yeah I think this thread has served it's purpose

 

The "bashing" started right on page 1 with the OP. The title says it all.

Actually, there has been no bashing. Only constructive criticisms by people who own/use ThinkPads.

@Thors.Hammer's recent technical posts might be better placed elsewhere, but there is no logical reason to close this thread.

 

the new Macbook is insane, it has more resolution than my U3011

 

given that you can achieve 3840*2400 res in a single screen in OSX by using an app, Id say its marvelous.

 

I thought it's 2880x1800?

How you can achieve more resolution than the physical hardware spec with an app?

 

the scaling works by processing the double of what is displaying. You have by standard the 1440*900 res, it goes up to 2880*1800 and is displayed at the 1440*900. you can go for 1680*1050 and up to 1920*1200, the latter meaning it goes to 3840*2400 and then scales back to 1920*1200.

Thats how the app can give you 3840*2400, because the screen supports it.

I have posted the link for the app already here

 

Not going to bother reading through a long Mac vs Thinkpad thread, but I totally agree with this quote. I have owned quite a few MBPs over the years before switching to Win 7/ThinkPad last year. I am fairly good with protecting my hardware, but my last three or four MBPs were complete lemons. The most durable of them was not a MBP but a white MacBook that had holes in the plastic where I can see into the laptop and literally could fry an egg while streaming anything off the internet. The only Mac that tempts me occasionally is the MBA, but frankly, I don't plan on getting any Mac anytime in the future and this is coming from a former Apple fanatic.

 

That club consist mainly of lenovo employees, shareholders and a few deluded fans. There may be good business reasons to effect the changes, but no good reasons from a user's point of view.

 

Precisely.

 

I think it's important to realize that the Thinkpads are not premium laptops anymore. Lenovo simply does not command the same reputation as IBM and it's unrealistic for it to produce expensive premium laptops. Having said that, the Thinkpads still provide a unique set of features (although diminishing with the loss of the keyboard) and I would argue very few people actually need premium laptops. For example, the T430s is nowhere close to a Macbook Pro. However, good luck finding a Macbook Pro at sub-$700 range and good luck find another laptop at that price range with similar usability.

 

^^^ I do appreciate your balanced view.

 

Oh, yes, nowhere.

In fact, except the screen and maybe battery-life, the T430s is better in every single category. Less heat, better keyboards, more ports, matte screen, more robust, no proprietary hardware etc.

But, for sure, "the T430s is nowhere close to a Macbook Pro".

 

Comparing modern thinkpads to apple's highest end glamour products is a pretty good example of apples V oranges, but I guess at least it's entertaining

 

Oh boy, here we go

 

I can assure you that a Toyota Yaris has better fuel milage than a BMW 760, it's also probably easier to park, but I'd still say it's nowhere close to a BMW. As I said, the Thinkpads offer a very unique set of features and I will certainly choose a T430s over a Macbook Pro. However, it's simply not the power horse that Macbook Pro is. It's not designed to be either.

 

So only shareholders, deluded fans, and employees are allowed to think like business people? I'm not saying that I like Lenovo's decisions, I'm against a lot of them. I just acknowledge the fact that Lenovo is a company out to make money and their decisions are very good from that standpoint.

As for T430s v RMBP. No competition, T430s. The only advantages of the RMBP is the quad core and screen. Nice to have features, but not worth it at all terrible ergonomics, bad heat management, less durability, heavier weight, less serviceability, fewer ports, and glossy screen.

Now against the Sony Z, I'd probably take the Z.

 

I didn't read this thread, but thought I'd jump in and share my opinion.

I have owned an X61, X200, X220 tablet and W520. I use a T400 for work. Love Lenovos.

I recently sold my W520 and got a 17" matte MBP. Put a Seagate 750 hybrid drive in and did 50/50 OSX and Win7 (bootcamp).

In short, I really don't miss Lenovo right now. The MBP running Windows 7 is pretty incredible. Plus I have the best of both worlds in a stunning 1920 x 1200 display.

Not saying one is better than the other, but the MBP hardware is beyond impressive. Sure it's more fragile than tank-like Lenovos, but for my purposes, it's perfect enough to lure me from the Lenovo loyalty.

 

I always love how people try to come off as an authoritative expert on a machine when they don't have one, and no direct experience. Many of the assertions I see being made here are wrong. Or certainly too extreme.

 

macbooks are over-hyped and over-priced, tiny bang for the buck. I don't know what can beat the combination of a thinkpad and an 24" high quality external monitor.

 

I'm in more or less the same situation, and appreciate informed views like the one above.

 

My day environment is a ThinkPad with 2-3 connected LCD panels. The Dell U2711 is the main monitor. It is pretty fantastic.

I plan to run some interesting tests with another brand soon. I need the right connectors.

 

My only concern about MacBooks is the way they absorb shock. I've dropped my MacBook Pro once and it dented pretty badly. I'm sure the dent protected the internal components pretty well, but damn, that dent really killed its resale value when I sold it last year.

I prefer the way Thinkpads handle shock.

 

This is a really balanced views, both have pros and cons.

In terms of durability, of course the macbooks are going to lose, no doubt about it. Having used several thinkpads and only one mbp 13 I can still say that.

Windows experience in macbooks is your standard one, having encoutered any major problems aside the now your usual windows trackpad instead of your astounding OSX touchpad, and the diminished battery life, that is still pretty good.

@pseudo you do realize that the mbp 15 can still have a matte screen, for now

and people at least compare models of the same size.

 

If you drop a ThinkPad, one of the plastic parts might break. Then you just order the part (or get if from ebay etc.) and replace it, and it's like new. It's very cheap as well.

But if you Drop a MacBook from a certain height, it will, as described by XX55XX, dent. So basically, you'll new a completely new Base unit or Display unit, depending on what got damaged.

I wonder why ThinkPads are compared with MacBooks in the first place. They are totally different Machines with totally different Customers in mind.
Macs are Lifestyle Notebooks while ThinkPads are trimmed for pure business. It would make more sense to compare them to Elitebooks etc. but then again, Black vs. White has always been in conflict.

 

24" 1920x1200 monitors , even IPS, are becoming common today and now cost about $300-400. It's just not too convincing to me that I should spend $2k+ to buy a notebook with only 200 GB HD and on which "everything else is terrible" ("else" means none-apple).

 

Thinkpads as a label can refer to pretty diverse offerings. I would still include the T/W/X series to be in the top category of laptops. They're definitely comparable to the MBP in overall feature set at a lower cost.

 

For another viewpoint, here's my perspective. I've used Thinkpads and I've used Macbooks. I looked at the new Retina version of the Macbook Pro and ordered a Thinkpad W530. These are both high-end expensive systems with similar screen size. Here's how they compared to me:

Screen: the 1920x1080 screen on the W series has been described as one of the best notebook screens available. The new Retina screen has been described as revolutionary. Advantage: Apple

Power: both can be configured with very similar components. Advantage: even

Design: the Macbook Pro is roughly half the thichness and weighs a pound less. The Thinkpad has looked the same for years. Advantage: Apple

Connectivity: the Macbook Pro has 2 USB 3.0 ports, HDMI, audio, & 2 Thunderbolt ports. The Thinkpad has 2 USB 3.0 ports, 2 USB 2.0 ports (one of which is always available for charging), VGA, Mini DisplayPort, Ethernet, audio, and ExpressCard ports. Advantage: Lenovo

Battery Life: rated battery life for Retina Macbook Pro - 7 hours; rated battery life for W530 using same Watt-hour battery - 12.8 hours. Advantage: Lenovo

Durability: the Macbook has not passed any military spec tests, the W530 has. Advantage: Lenovo

Versatility: the Macbook is non-upgradeable, has no optical drive (although they offer an external USB-based optical drive), and all parts are soldered or glued into place or use proprietary connectors. The W530 has a detailed maintenance guide that tells how to replace every single part, memory and storage can be easily upgraded by user, ultrabay contains optical drive or additional hard drive according to user's needs. Advantage: Lenovo

Warranty: Apple is widely considered to have the best tech support in the business, but their warranty does not cover accidental damages. Lenovo is considered to have very good tech support as well, and their warranty can be configured to cover accidental damages. Advantage: even

Price: total estimated price to buy Retina Macbook Pro with my desired specifications - around $2800; total price to buy W530 including aftermarket memory & SSD upgrades - around $2400. Advantage: Lenovo

So with everything taken into consideration, for what's important to me, Apple wins in 2 areas, both systems are equal in 2 areas, and Lenovo wins in the remaining 5 areas. So I ordered the Lenovo.

 

Really great analysis! I never thought to put it this way and I do like the comparison.

 

I'm not so sure about this one. W530 will last 12.8 hours on 9 cell battery when it's off, for sure. If you turn it on, put, say, 150cd/m2 brightness (probably about 12 at W520/W530) and would be actively browsing/using the PC, there is absolutely no way you'll see 12.8. Or 10. Or 9 hours.

The benefit shows up when you need more than 6-7 hours disconnected, or more than 2-3 hours actually using quad CPU (for example compiling C++ code, doing calculations, running VMs etc). In Lenovo world you just go to lenovo.com and buy another 9 cell. Or a slate battery (so no need to shutdown the machine to swap it).

Advantage is actually larger. W530 with FHD and K2000 is $1500 atm. 512GB m4 is less than $400. 32GB RAM - another $200. Total: $2100.

Color sensor, finger print reader, dock, multi-monitor support, trackpoint and Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys: priceless

But overall, I can't get why people compare these two machines. Not only they their design goals and implementations are very different. Either is 150% overkill as something for casual browsing etc.

If you want to run Windows primarily, and OS X not at all (or in VM): Lenovo wins immediately, if only because it can run on battery for 5-7 hours while in Windows. For running OS X as a primary OS: RMBP is the best device ever created, and while it's probably possible to get W530 to do it, it's not going to be the same.

 

I'm currently running a Thinkpad with a 30" Cinema Display at 2560x1600. That is a measly 4160x2500 real estate.
It is sure sweet but you know what is better?

A laptop that can run TWO of those monitors. E.G. TWO 2560x1600 monitors
A MBP Pro can do the internal 2880x1800, and 2560x1600,2560x1600 totalling a whopping 8,000 x 5,000
And if you have an iPad 3, you can extended it to another 2540x1440 wirelessly.

Oh, and displaylink can go even further. I one time had 4 displaylink monitors on a 13" MBP.

I don't think ANY Thinkpad running LINUX (not Windows) can do what I just described. if so, my next laptop will be another Thinkpad. But for now, the Retina MBP sure looks sweet.

 

And what is the problem exactly? Dock has 2 x DisplayPorts. And you can run it together with the laptop screen even in Linux, even with W520 that has crippled Optimus implementation: Tech Notes: Tri-head display on linux Thinkpad W520 (Graphics Adventures) . W530 probably has Optimus fixed, and is even better. Finally, there is still ExpressCart slot, so can stuff eGPU with AMD card in there, and get some more screens.

And there are probably USB video adapters that run on Linux, plus (if iPad connected wirelesly counts as a monitor) there is no shortage of other devices you can connect to even in Windows to simulate one big desktop over the network (in Linux it's actually easier AFAIR).

Counting wireless iPads and laptop screen itself in addition to external monitors, is a bit strange though. It's very inconvenient to use because of different PPIs and screen technologies.

 

I can get upwards of 10hrs on my W520 surfing the web, I don't see why a W530 can't do it. Though, any Flash would bring this down to something closer to 8 ~ 9 hours while streaming Youtube brings it down to like 6. My primary use case (on or off AC) is 720p anime watching, and the W520 lasts me 7 hours doing so (8-bit anyways, 10-bit H.264 makes it go down to more like 5 hours due to the lack of hardware acceleration).

 

good analysis.

 

But if you already have a W510, T420, X301 and a T61p....

 

I was simply using manufacturer-provided numbers. Whether or not these numbers are attainable is another story entirely.

 

Adding 1.5M ( 1600x900 ) and 4.5 M ( 2560x1600 ) to 10M (2560*1600) is not bad.

But adding 5M (2880x1800), 4.5M (2560x1600) and 4.5 (2560x1600) to 40M (8000x5000) is certainly much better

 

I'm very well aware of that blog post. I did quite a bit research on this.
When he wants to run tri-head, he needs to kill his current x-session, and run a custom xorg config file that sets his X11 preference.

This is before he enables/disables settings at boot time. He even notes if you want better battery life, you have to choose a different option at boot.

This is not an elegant solution when you have to dock,undock, plug and re-plug throughout the day. Just last Friday, I had to undock and redock my thinkpad 3 times and connect twice to two different LCD panels for different meetings. I would need to reboot (to set my bios preference) and log-out/restart my x11 session each time for each scenario.

So in his scenario, if i was him,
1) I would need to shutdown.
2) Thinkvantage and F1 to BIOS to set discreet
3) Boot into OS.
4) Kill whatever running X11 session
5) Start with different xorg file for tri-head.


On a mac, it is just plug-n-play. I never shut down my computer. I always put all my laptop to sleep from home to train to work. Having to do all the above is a hassle.

I went and tried a bunch of machines before settling on a T420 with the mini dock 3. I speak from experience.

I'm well aware of the eGPU route. But the eGPU is not plug-n-play while you are running. You need to reboot. Do a sequence to power up the eGPU before the laptop starts up so the PCIe bus can see the running card.

Again, not a very elegant solution. Thunderbolt is the future.

 

Well, I'm sure it can, especially with dual core etc. But even if idle, power consumption depends on brightness dramatically, the difference between 0 and 15 can be 7-10W or even more with FHD screen, making the difference in hours. At least it's the case with my W520. Numbers with quad core, lots of RAM, mSATA, slightly more usage etc. are going to be a lot worse.

My point was merely that while Lenovo's numbers and Apple's numbers have some truth to it, they can't be compared directly. At least in Lenovo's case 12.8hrs probably means "we switched off all that could be switched off, got brightness set to 0, put a single mechanical HDD to sleep, inserted the weakest CPU we could find and 2GB RAM, and out the batch of our 10 testing machines not one has managed 12.9 hrs"

Well, it's not a fair comparison. Thunderbolt or DisplayPort+Optimus CAN work elegantly and plug and play with any OS. I have external 3 screens connected to W520 (2 DisplayPort, 1x USB), press a dock button - all goes to one screen, put it back - all 3 are back.

If it is not quite plug-and-play in some OS - it's a temporary problem of that particular OS/hardware/drivers combination, not the hardware or technology itself. Likewise, if not all Mac touchpad gestures work in Windows, it's not a problem of the touchpad.

Thunderbolt is probably the future, I agree. But I suspect the real future is the less bandwidth-limited version of it, not what we got now. In 2012, I'd much prefer DisplayPort+eSATA+USB3+Ethernet+ExpressCard to any number of Thunderbolts.

 

If you want comparisons that are closer to real life, the W520 (10.8 hour battery life according to Lenovo) was tested at 9 hours by Laptop Magazine and the Retina Macbook Pro was tested at 8 hours. Since Laptop magazine uses a very light load to test battery life, these numbers can be viewed as the higher range for both systems. Since Lenovo rates the W530 as having roughly 18% better maximum battery life in comparison to the W520, it could be projected that the W530 would last over 10 hours with the same usage. While 10:8 is not such a dramatic difference as 12:7, Lenovo still has the advantage in battery life, and that was the point intended.

 

This is a fair and honest question. Do you have 2 displayports working with Linux on resolution greater than 1080p.

Simple question..

Can you power two 2560x1600 screen on your W520/W530 under Linux..

That link you provided sure doesn't nor has any of the hundreds of forum posts I've research indicates. The answer is no. I've even bookmarked somewhere a tech post from Nvidia that says it can't be done either in Linux or Windows due to the physical display port itself.

If you do, then you are the 1st guy on the internet that I know of.

I like something that works now. I have two 30" and another 27" cinema display all running 2000x resolution.

 

Which is the problem with many of these tests, as CPU eats very little, and luminance is unknown. With a device with such a big screen, the screen consumes a lion share of energy when idle.

"Set screens at 40% brightness" means exactly nothing. To get more realistic numbers, it would make sense to set both devices to a certain luminance, like 120cd/m2, which in W520/W530 FHD is close to upper-middle of the 0-15 scale, and in the new Mac is probably closer to the lowest.

Frankly, just looking at the battery capacity is probably going to give better precision. Lenovo 9 cell has 94Wh, the new Mac about the same. CPUs and GPUs are either the same, or comparable too, switchable graphics etc. present in both. Consequently, battery life, running similar software, is likely to be in the same ballpark (may be one is 1-3W more efficient when idle than another, because of screen tech, chipsets, power management etc, but with batteries of this capacity it hardly matters). Getting "similar software" isn't easy because of OS differences.

 

I have 2x 1920x1200 27" screens running from DisplayPort + 1 USB + laptop screen that can be turned on at the same time. Under Windows, w/o problems, no reboots needed when docking/undocking. Single U2711 also works. Don't have 2 to try.

If it does not work with Linux for whatever reason, or does not support 2 screens more than 1920x1200 at the same time, I don't understand what it has to do with Apple or Lenovo or Thinkpad or Thunderbolt. It's nVidia drivers or Q2000 hardware or Linux limitation, that may or may not be fixed with K2000 series. K1000/2000 have DisplayPort 1.2 btw., so daisy-chaining of monitor should work.

Perhaps a device with FirePro video and eyeFinity would work better at this time, and for that reason HP mobile workstations, or 2011 Mac book pros, are better than nVidia-based for this setup.

 

It boils down to this. There are buyers like myself who want the highest performance UNIX/*NIX/LINUX based portable workstation. They don't care about the specific graphics GPU in the laptop, they simply want it to work with a *NIX based operating system for whatever reasons. if the w520/w530 did what I need it to do today, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

The Thinkpads are up there in terms of linux compatibility and that is why I chose them over a comparable Dell/HP.

I am amazed at how my thinkpad works with a lot of stuff - esata, fingerprint login,etc.. But the display and gpu are still very problematic.

I'm brand agnostic. However, If the MBP Type-R works better as workstation, I'll definitely consider it over a comparable future Thinkpad.

 

Still, if they have very specific GPU requirements (such as CUDA, or support of more than 2 screens larger than 1920x1200, etc) in an unsupported operating system, they have to care about the GPUs specifics.

Experience that applies to 2011 15" MacBook Pros, which used AMD cards, is likely to be very different from 2012 models, as they are back to nVidia again. Same in W520/W530, which have different GPUs, and the one in W530 is supposed to have DisplayPort 1.2, with more bandwidth and support for display daisy-chaining.

Perhaps that would work on Linux better. But it's most likely to be laptop brand agnostic issue, but GPU/OS specific.

 

Here's Notebookcheck's review of the W520 which uses a much more realistic test that doesn't simply rely on the screen. The Verge also rated MBP's (with retina) battery life at 5 hours, which is a lot less than Apple claimed (and they're even Apple-biased). I think the Lenovo will score much better, not to mention the
benefits that having a removable battery brings (and removable RAM and HD).

 

Of course, things will be different depending on the configuration of the system. I use my W520 on 9/15 brightness (I find my Dell Ultrasharp U2312HM too bright at 0 brightness), and I find that the difference between having the display off and 9/15 brightness is roughly 3 W, while the difference between 0 and 9/15 is like 1.5 W. I think Lenovo tests using MobileMark or whatever it's called to measure "battery life". I have tried BatteryEater Reader's test on my W520 for fun around this time last year, it lasted 5hrs 45mins and had 50% left before I got annoyed from not being able to play around with my then relatively new laptop. Do note that my battery has since been recalibrated and exposes 10 Wh more than it did when it was new (104.46 Wh full charge).

 

Historical perspective:

Quad core machines before Sandy Bridge got maybe 3 hours of battery life. 4 if you were lucky.

Quad core machines are relatively new on the market. If you are getting 5-10 hours using ANY brand, it's pretty damn cool. It is really rather remarkable.