The Official Yoga 3 Pro Release Thread

"At our meeting last week, Ravencraft and his associates, Brad Saunders, a USB 3.0 Promoter Group Chairman, and Rahman Ismail, the USB-IF CTO, (both of whom work for Intel by day) told Ars that a number of device manufacturers are preparing to launch products in early 2015 that will have USB 3.1 Type-C plugs. 'Some people are trying to get things out before the end of the year, but I can’t say who,' Saunders told Ars. 'Clearly people who’ve been working on the spec for over a year' would be good to bet on, he added."

Source: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2014/09/reversible-tiny-faster-hands-on-with-the-usb-type-c-plug/

So, I'm hopeful that this "early 2015" coincides with Intel's Broadwell-U "early 2015", with CES 2015 in early January.

Right, it also throttles, but it outperforms the Y3P in Cinebench (just one test, though). A Haswell CPU in a thinner, lighter chassis is faster than a Core M CPU? That doesn't sound inspiring.

Hmph, right. I am beginning to think I need to start looking at enterprise laptops.

 

I am really interested to see some battery consumption numbers....

Check out this link....Windows 8 comes with a tool to measure battery consumption in milliwatt hours.

Use Windows 8 Performance Monitor to Analyse Your System Performance

 

Interesting...Best Buy has a 14" ThinkPad Yoga listed. Not really the kind of thing most of us are looking for, but still...different. Discrete video card is unexpected too.

My apologies if this is old news. Didn't see it listed anywhere on the Lenovo site.

-Matt

Lenovo Yoga 2in1 14" TouchScreen Laptop Intel Core i5 8GB Memory 1TB+16GB Hybrid Drive THINKPAD YOGA 14 - 20DM000VUS - Best Buy

 

Here's my take on this thing: Lenovo Yoga 3 Pro review and a first look at Intel's Core M platform . You'll find details on performance, battery life, throttling, display, etc.

Not sure what to say about the laptop, other that I personally would not buy it, based on the unit I got to test. I also can't say for sure if I dealt with a potentially faulty pre-release sample or that's how the final model is goign to perform.

I will get my hands on the Asus T300F in a few days and have a second encounter with the platform. I wonder if it will perform any better, or Core M is just not meant for a serious laptop. We'll see.

Anyway, hope this helps. And if you've got any questions, let me know.

 

Thanks Mike, super write-up. It's a shame that the Y3P falls short of expectations. Maybe the spring time will bring better news!

-Matt

 

bummer! thanks for your review. I think I will purchase the yoga 2 pro then. Any difference there is between Lenovo website vs Best Buy?

 

If you want to pick up the yoga 2 pro then make sure you search for discounts. A few days ago, I remember seeing some good deals for around U.S. $750 for the icore 5 model.

Seem to recall Best Buy tends to have some good configurations at the lowest prices but the downside being the warranty period may be reduced and you may have to go back to them for any problems versus a Lenovo service center - for those of us that travel overseas this can be a big problem.

 

Going through the HWInfo logs again I did notice that the average CPU Package Power is always at around 3.5 W, so I believe Lenovo went with an underpowered version of the MY70 chip in the Y3P, at least on this particular unit that I got to test.

That could mean better performance for the final releases if those will run CPUs at the nominal TDP of 4.5 W. And should also mean there's a lot more potential with this Core M platform than this model shows right now. I've read something about Core M platforms allowed TDPs of up to 6 W, but I can't remember exactly where.

 

I'm really disappointed to hear that chrome is awful in your experience with this unit. I was dead-set on this but the discussion of USB3.1 and the Core M performance have me holding out for the time being

 

Great and very unbiased review MikeTLB. I like this kind, its rare Usually people will just rave about a new product and ignore the weak points. It doesnt make much sense for Lenovo to give out test units to reviewers with worse performance than the production units, or would it ? I mean it cant be in Lenovos interest to get a lot of bad reviews and then ship better products ?!? so why do you guys think the production units will be better ? Any statement from Lenovo on the performance/Throttling/Battery Life issues ?

 

So far this Y3P looks like a case of d--n the performance, full thin and light ahead.

 

I've seen on other occasions where manufacturers have multiple hardware sources and can frequently switch between them, which can cause later production runs to go better. Also, other than firmware fixes, it's not unusual for later runs to specifically address hardware issues when/where possible. For example, it looks as though Lenovo moved from the 11n to the AC variant of their wifi card during Y2P production. I live by the "early adopters are beta testers" rule, which means "buy a product within 3 months of launch and there's a 99% chance that something fairly important on it won't work like you expect."

-Matt

 

Does anyone know if it supports a digitzer pen like the 12.5" version does?

 

Given the regular ThinkPad Yoga user manual specifically mentions "pen" and "digitizer":

http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/s1_yoga_ug_en.pdf

while the manual on the 14 doesn't:

http://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/tp_yoga_14_ug_en.pdf

I'd say it's lacking on the 14.

-Matt

 

Can someone please tell me if it's possible to still get dual wifi with 5ghz connection on the Yoga Pro 2 if I get it from Lenovo's site directly? Or do I have to get the one from Best Buy that has it already fixed (someone said something about it being mentioned on the box...)

 

There is a white sticker on the side of the box with the specifications. The updated model will say WLAN: AC+BT4.0 and the processor will be an i7-4510U (original model was 4500).

All new stock should be the updated model, but it doesn't hurt to check. You definitely want to check if you are getting an open box discounted model, since that could be older stock or a demo.

 

I believe the updated model of the Y2Pro is a Best Buy exclusive. Specs on Lenovo's site still say wireless-N. See my post above for info on what to look for on the box.

 

"5.4 Wh (~8 h of use) – idle, Power Saving Mode, screen at 0%, Wi-Fi ON, keyboard’s back-lightning OFF;"

WOW!! This is terrible!! Zero advancement from my Ivy Bridge XPS 12. Not even a single watt it saves in idle(ok, not even 0.1W). And YET it needs a fan and even then has to run a cTDPdown mode at 3.5W.

Now why would I buy this over an Ivy Bridge Ultrabook let alone Haswell? Because of portability? Well Bay Trails are better. And this costs $1300.

I find it amazing if you want balance of portability, battery life, and performance, only the Vaio Duo 13 meets that category. And ironic that Sony sold their PC division so the future is murky. I don't know why Lenovo has such a bad engineering team. Maybe the sacrifice in the hidden specs like these are why they cut costs and save money.

Mike, its not "underpowered". The Core M chips have a "Configurable TDP" that can be set by the manufacturer. Looks like its set at cTDPdown, which is at 3.5W for the Core M 5Y70. 5Y70 chips also have a 6W cTDPup. Lenovo just decided to set it at 3.5W for the strangest reasons even though it has a fan.

Are they purposely trying to run Yoga line to the ground?

 

Thanks for the review, Mike. I echo everyone's thoughts: you done messed up , Lenovo. 3 generations in a row now I've skipped the Yoga series because of stuff like this.

I think my suspicions were correct. Lenovo luckily stumbled upon their hinge design for the original Yoga. That wonderful, practical, and forward-looking engineering is not carried over to any other part of the laptop (save maybe that USB power port). Not the screen, not the battery life/power management, not the touchpad, not the performance, etc.

I could rant for pages, but no need. Suffice to say that I won't be the one creating the "Yoga 4 Pro" Release Thread.

Sony VAIO is apparently still a thing in Japan. I wonder what warranty service will be like if I live here in the US...

~Ibrahim~

 

What type of SSD does the Yoga Pro 3 use?

Also can I upgrade to 16GB of ram or is it soldered?

Whoever finds out will be rewarded by me

 

RAM = 8gb max soldered on.

As far as the SSD, I haven't seen anything official yet, but based on the prior models, mSata and replaceable. They sell them at 256gb and 512gb atm.

 

Ram is soldered. The SSD is not and it's an M.2 stick, so should be easily replaceable. The unit I played with came with a Liteon L8T-256L9G model, which looks like a 80 or 100 mm stick. Haven't pried the laptop open to check it out, but other have: Ϊʲô»áÈç´ËÇᱡ£¿YOGA 3 PRO²ð½âͼÉÍ_PCPOPÅÝÅÝÍø

@IntelUser Thanks for the clarifications on TDP. I know these platforms can be configured to a certain TDP by each manufacturer and Lenovo set it at 3.5W. That's what I meant by "underpowered", probably not the best term to describe it though

 

So far all the so-called tests performed on the y3p in the US and France indicate low CPU performance relative to the y2p. I am assuming ALL these tests were done on pre-production units? Is that a correct assumption? Recently I noticed that on the "recently" created Lenovo Support page there were posted download links to a whole bunch of drivers including bios and heat management etc...Do we know if these are "updates" or were they all already installed on the pre-production units? Is it fair to say that one should wait till the "testers" are using a production unit with all the bios and other upgrades before making a final decision to buy or not?? Please enlighten me. TY.

 

The Sony Vaio Pro 13 had the worst wifi I have ever seen, and no fix in sight. And it felt flimsy because of the excessive flex. And mine had a sharp corner where the keyboard corner met the bottom cover, right where I rested my wrist. I was going to file the corner off if I had kept it. But, I ended up sending it back to Sony after one trip to Sony to repair the wifi accomplished nothing.

I don't know where to look for my next laptop.

Regards, Jim

 

hawkeye62,

Now you said it, I remember that even the Duo 13 has WiFi issues as well. Yea, Laptops are finicky. It would have been awesome if you could build it yourself like Desktops.

Suffice to say even in the 5-6 years into the future if I really want to replace this XPS 12, I am going to be VERY picky.

 

I have a reason to believe the problem might be actually Core M itself.

Intel Broadwell Preview - Eerste tablet met Core M-processor getest - Synthetische benchmarks - Preview - Reviews - Tweakers

The Core M 5Y10 does even worse at 1.59 points in Cinebench R11.5. Sometimes it performs as bad as Pentium, AMD A6(based on Kabini) and Atom.

This is the possible reason: http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/45/IMG0045549.jpg

Good benchmarking chip.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

According to Intel, Core M processors offer 50% and 40% better central processing unit (or CPU) and graphics performance, respectively—compared with the previous generation ultra-low-power Core CPUs. As the above chart shows, the Core M processor’s thermal design power (or TDP) is reduced by 60%. TDP is the amount of heat dissipated by the processor.

WHAT WENT WRONG at Lenovo??????

 

I don't think anything went wrong. That statement holds true with Y-series processors and not the U-series. From what I've been reading Core M is comparable to Y series like the one in the Yoga 11s.

 

At this point the only thing that Lenovo can do to save this laptop and make things "straight" is to rename "Yoga 3 Pro" to "Yoga 1 Pro".
That would put this laptop exactly where it realistically is, at least in regard to performance - between Yoga 1 and Y2P...

/s (only partially though)

Edit: Actually, is it even slower than original Yoga 1?? In that case it would be "Yoga 0.5 Pro"!

 

If you look at those benchmarks you'll see they tested Asus T300F. So, it's nothing specific to Lenovo. It's the Core M 5Y10 CPU that's simply slow.
Intel's theoretical facts about the CPU sound nice, but it looks like in practice it doesn't perform that well.

 

I'm not sure where/how I got this idea, but I'm assuming we'll see 5th-gen Broadwell-U (ultrabook) variants of the Yoga in early spring. Given the M-variant already has a fan, the U models shouldn't be much different in form-factor...just faster. Oh, and obviously less battery life than the Y3P but then almost certainly more than the Haswell's (Y2P).

If that logic is correct, we should all take a big, collective chill-pill and just relax. Everything's gonna be alright.

-Matt

 

I think that the new U model might actually have better battery life than Y model, even with same battery.
Why? Well, the slower CPU means the CPU will run at its max power more often, whereas more powerful CPU will run at less than its max power in order to perform the same task. And will do it faster, therefore spend less time and power executing the task.

Obviously there's some golden middle / balance between the power consumption and speed, which also depends on what tasks you do with your laptop. It just looks like the new Broadwell Y model isn't a well balanced CPU, at least for CPU that goes in a regular laptop. Especially if it heats up quickly and needs to be throttled as much as in Y3P, despite the presence of a fan.

Underpowered machines often have weaker than expected battery life only because they need to spend more time running at its max power (which also causes the fan to run faster and spend additional power).

 

^^^ Thanks, nicely reasoned. I'd be happy to agree with your argument, but then the "data don't lie" so I'm going to hold out a few more months, to wait and see what the real-life usage numbers look like. I suspect your prediction will hold true.

Personally speaking, the sweet spot for me is somewhere around 7-8 hours of moderate use. I'm getting around 5ish on my 2-year-old Samsung machine (including 25% battery wear)...I'd love to actually see "all-day computing" on one of my machines! Hopefully sometime soon.

-Matt

 

I think "what went wrong" is an obsession with "thin and light". And Lenovo is not the only manufacturer with that obsession, they all seem to be on the same bandwagon. What is most irksome to me is that as the CPUs get more efficient, manufacturers are reducing battery size rather than extending battery life.

Jim

 

Do you really think it'll be that early? Some sites are saying the new 5th gen series won't come till the last half of 2015... I am planing to get the Y2P in a few days coz my Y1 is basically broken at the hinge and gives off this weird blue coloring now. Wondering if I should just drag on with it though if I can get something by March at least

 

Yeah, not really sure. I was guessing based on reports that we'd see the U-series announced around CES in January...with units shipping in the following month or two. TBH I can't recall seeing an explicit statement from Lenovo that they're even planning on going beyond the M-variant with the Yoga Pro. Seems logical, but that's a guess too. I hadn't heard about delays in 2015 though.

-Matt

 

That isn't necessarily true in the real-world. When I measure power use on my XPS 12, CPU is by far the biggest portion of the increase in power over idle. If I force it to run it at 800MHz, I save quite a bit of power.

The only time where I can see it benefit is in playing iGPU hardware-offloaded video stored in your drive. I mean, in Youtube it has to ramp up much higher so it uses so much power.

 

Please review the following :
The first Core M laptop paints a depressing, mediocre picture for Intel’s Broadwell | ExtremeTech

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/CInebench-Multi-CPU-Yoga-Pro-3.jpg

The author at Extreme Tech states:

"I’m not saying Core M/Broadwell doesn’t have a problem. It’s possible that these weak performance figures and throttling issues are either caused by Intel drivers or by overly aggressive chip positioning. More laptop launches and reviews will establish which of these is actually the problem, but if I had to bet, I’d bet that the issues are mostly on Lenovo’s side. The CPU/SoC, for all its complexity, is still just one component in a complex system — and too many of the laptop’s issues may have little to do with the CPU core. Wall socket power consumption suggests, for example, that the chip does draw 3-4W in light workloads — well in line with Intel’s estimates.

Intel is investigating the issue and preliminary indications are that the situation may be partly resolved through a BIOS update. We’re in the process of reaching out to Lenovo and will update when we hear back."

 

^^This + another obsession for stupid highDPI resolutions that are useless in real life (comon who needs 3200x1800 on a 13" device ? Windows scaling is horrible, app compatibility is far from optimal and power consumption goes up to the roof)
Looks like manufacturers have no clue of what we want. Give me a 1.5~1.7kg 13" FHD laptop with real 10 hours battery life and I will buy it in a breeze !

 

Amen ArthurG!

Jim

 

That's called "Yoga 2", and it has been available for quite some time. Maybe not 10 hours, better battery life than Y2P if you put SSD instead of HD, it has much more accurate FHD display, and it's thicker and heavier than Y2P.

I totally agree with the opinion that Lenovo made a stupid design mistake to chase the thinness and lightness and sacrifice the performance and battery life.
But, I'd personally love to see even lighter and thinner Yoga than my Y2P, IF the performance is at least the same and battery at least somewhat improved. I was just using my Y2P as a tablet for couple of hours, and after some time it does become heavy and bulky. If it was thinner and lighter I would definitely use it more often as a tablet. I don't mind the 13 inch size, I love bigger tablet screen.

FHD screen is nice, but when you compare it to Y2P/Y3P screen then it's obviously less sharp. Most desktop apps scale just fine and modern apps scale perfectly. And some desktop apps that had problem with scaling are slowly being updated. This hasn't been an issue for me at all. Running at 32000x1800 and 180% scaling when on a laptop, and at 1600x900 and 100% with another FHD monitor hooked up, only because of problems with limited scaling options when using multiple displays. Which Windows 10 will solve.

There's definitely both need AND want for thin and light convertibles (not so much for regular laptops because they're not being used as tablets). But NOT if you sacrifice both performance and battery life, and not to mention function keys, which Lenovo did with Y3P.

 

The million dollar question for Y3P NOW is:

Can Lenovo save the day by updating the Bios so that the FULL M chip potential is achieved and throteling? is at minimum?
and Will that improve the battery life?

So far I have not seen ONE SINGLE reply to any of the customers concerns from Lenovo?? Why do they remain silent on this?

When Surface Pro 3 had issues MS immediately addressed the concerns and they continue to provide fixes with regular updates!!

Ashton wake up dude!!

 

Why is Lenovo silent? Lol...
They have remained COMPLETELY silent on all issues Yoga 2 Pro has for already more than a year! Terrible and unreliable wifi, screen flickering at low brightness, sound problems, easy to crack screen even by just opening the lid, low performance in tablet mode (heavy CPU throttling)... We're talking about a popular premium laptop, not some cheapy budget laptop.
No hardware fixes, no software updates, nothing. Look at Lenovo forums - so many people complaining about issues and not a single response from Lenovo (except censoring posts that call for some action).

Lenovo has its own way to deal with issues, no matter how serious they are and however many users they affect - ignore it all, no matter what. It looks like they only focus on development of new products. Once a product is released the support is practically non existent.

Lenovo products have REALLY good design and form factor, I have to admit that. But everything else is a disaster, both hardware components and software drivers.

 

I have to say, although its probably the fault of the ENTIRE PC ecosystem, the biggest fault may be with Intel. I've noticed lot of "ODMs" follow Intel's way of thinking in a lot of ways. With Intel devices they got lots of problem in the beginning but they fix it up. Sure, not all manufacturers are like that. Also, Intel is pretty good at hardware, but they are mediocre in software. Look at their graphics drivers. So do many PC OEMs.

There's a possibility that lot of PC designs are very closely based on Intel's reference designs. Sure some designs like the upcoming Asus T300 Chi are nearly exactly based on the Llama Mountain reference platform. Who made up the push for Ultrabooks(well they made the brand too)? Who pushed HARD for Convertible and 2-in-1s? They are both from Intel.

I have absolutely no freaking idea how BIOS/Firmware settings can be so bad that updated BIOS/Firmware can result in drastic improvements. The only time I remember that it makes that much difference is if the system doesn't have chipset drivers installed. I mean, it requires completely not recognizing the CPU and platform to make 20-30% difference. A BIOS issue? That's nonsense. It just doesn't make sense. It's much easier and convincing to conclude that probably at least 1/2 of the problems on the Y3P is due to Core M significantly underdelivering(or perhaps not since they said "cool system can increase performance by 50%", maybe that's how they get those "fantastic" benchmarking scores)

The Core M 5Y10 scores 1.59 in Cinebench R11.5, which means comparing to the Y3P it corresponds mostly to max clock speed differences. So a 25-30% loss in performance running real applications versus "benchmarketing" may be a real thing. 25-30% difference in CPU performance is something that goes from "awesome" to "time to sell company stocks".

Intel Broadwell Preview - Eerste tablet met Core M-processor getest - Synthetische benchmarks - Preview - Reviews - Tweakers

 

I think this shows that the fault of the issue lies with the chip, Core M.

Core M kontra inne uk³ady „laptopowe” :: PCLab.pl
Core M kontra inne uk³ady „tabletowe” :: PCLab.pl

LOOK at the applications tested. That's using the Yoga 3 Pro.

 

That's pretty pathetic for a "regular" laptop grade CPU.
In half of the tests it even gets beaten by Pentium N3520 (Atom successor), which is the CPU in budget Yoga 2 11.
However, Core M's TDP is rated at 4.5 watts, and N3520 at 7.5 watts. Core i5-4210Y and Core i5-4200U (and higher) are rated at 15 watts.
This CPU has a pretty good performance for TDP of 4.5 watts!

The only problem is that Lenovo put this CPU in "Yoga 3 Pro", which is a premium laptop with full performance expected.
If they had released this laptop as a new line of Yoga laptops, something like ultra thin and light with lower performance, then no one would expect high performance out of it, and the laptop would perform "as expected".

Yoga 3 Pro is actually a good laptop, its only problem is a wrong name.
This isn't a successor of Yoga 2 Pro. This is a new line of Yoga with low performance but classy ultra thin and light design. Lenovo should rename it and save the day while they still can.

 

Just got mine, a 256gig version! Hope a bios upgrade fixes the high power consumption....

 

I just my 256 gb clementine 2 days ago, so far really liking it. Only issue I have is that the fan spins up all the time (even though it is much quieter than my Yoga 2 Pro I7 fan) and that the capacitive windows button on the screen is not very responsive - I have to touch it hard and sometimes a couple of times before it will register. I like the keyboard a lot - feels more tight and I like the feel of it even better than my Y2P. Screen is much better - seems more vibrant and the color is better and it is more responsive. I LOVE the form factor - light, thin, hinge works better than the Y2P. Hinge will make a clink when you jiggle the laptop but I kind of like it, and really, why would I be jiggling it anyway except that the sound is kind of cool. The hinge makes the screen stiffer so that it is easier to press. Hate again all the garbage Lenovo installs, I wish Microsoft sold a version in their store with just the stuff that comes with Windows 8.1. I may need to do a fresh install. But because the windows capacitive button on this unit is so finicky I am going to have them send me out a new unit. I can't live with that. Otherwise, real world performance for me is better than my Yoga 2 Pro - but I am not a power user. I write emails, surf the web, use Microsoft office, run some easy windows store and also desktop programs, and usually only use it for max 5 hours at a time. Anyhow, just my initial thoughts from someone that actually owns one, heh.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Excellent comments, TY and to the point that this is NOT a HIGH PERF unit!! Please keep posting as you get more time with it.

 

Low thermals *DO NOT* justify the lack of performance. Look at Intel's claims

-http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/intel-core-m-performance-vs-haswell-y.png
-http://www.omicrono.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/intel-core-m-3.jpg
-http://liliputing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/intel-core-m_08.jpg

This is misleading. By cleverly hiding parts where its weak at, it makes it look much better than the chip really is. They make it look like the chip would do *all* that at such low power envelope when in reality is either/or.

It can do fanless..
http://cdn3.mos.techradar.futurecdn...sor LLPT Final Distribute r1-page7-580-90.jpg

...without the performance.

It can achieve fantastic performance...
http://www.mobilegeeks.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/intel-core-m-3.jpg

...maybe with ideal copper plated heatsinks and top notch design when the system is running cool.

And this is a lie: http://media.bestofmicro.com/O/U/451902/gallery/Core-M-vs-iPad-1024_w_600.jpg

A8X performs on par with the Core M at 1/2 the price, and no fan without costing $2-300 for the chip. This also tells me the reason they did everything to prevent Nvidia from getting x86 license is because they would have had even the Windows ecosystem threatened.

Yea at $1300.