ThinkPad T431s / X230s Leaked

Well, since nobody here has tried it, we can´t judge it now - the first chance will come with the ThinkPad Helix. I will maybe a bit awkward when you use it the first time, but in the end, I estimate it will be a thing of "getting-used".

I have tried the integrated TouchPad buttons on a ThinkPad Twist and I like them. If the new TrackPoint buttons will work equally, I have no problems with this change.

 

I'm mainly worried about middle click scrolling. Touch enabled will be a disaster in the making when it comes to accidental scrolling and there's no way a glass trackpad will take less force to press down than the current center button.

While this whole situation sounds similar to the jump from phones with buttons to completely touch-enabled phones that many including myself have adjusted to, my issue is combining an input method which relies on physical feedback with touch keys into this hybrid. As I type this post, my thumb(s) can clearly differentiate between the 3 trackpoint keys they rest on.

Well, you're right. I'm assuming this new trackpoint design functions identically to the previous design when we really have no idea. I guess we'll find out in a few weeks...

 

The new buttons aren´t touch keys. They are mechanical.

You can still differentiate, the middle button has still the little dots so you know where the middle button is. The other buttons have no dots, and I think you can still differentiate if the button is right or left.

 

I'll buy the Asia bit...not the rest.

Well, I have a tendency of distrusting CEOs by default. Let's see if the gentleman in question values his word...

Quite the contrary: I've defended quite a few things that Lenovo had (or had not) done in the past.

However, with the keyboard layout change, they've passed the point of no return for me.

Name ONE laptop manufacturer - apart from Apple - that has a showroom in NYC.

I'll give it a couple of years...and then come back to bump this thread...:hi2:

 

Well, I never visited New York or the USA and I live in Germany, so I can´t give an answer to this question. But here in Germany, we have some stores from Samsung in bigger cities for example, and Acer will build some stores as I heard. And this sentence "It works for many other companys, why not Lenovo?" was not specifically concentrated on notebook manufactures. It is about this general "Manufacturer / Company own stores"-thing. Especially in bigger cities, there are many companies with such, and it works very well (one example for America: Microsoft).

Yes, ok, we will see...

The low-margin thing? It is true. Lenovo has, especially on their cheaper notebooks, very low margins, only 2-3%.

It is your own decision. For me, the keyboard layout isn´t really important. But remember that HP also has a 6-row layout on their Elitebooks (and even worse than Lenovos in my opinion), and the feel of their keyboards isn´t as good. The question is: What would you do if Lenovo really comes up with a 16" W-ThinkPad with 2560x1440 IPS screen in this year? Would you then reconsider a ThinkPad?

 

I can guess that much. Your statements do not reflect such limited exposure, though. They tend to be strong claims as if you had seen the world and you were working for Lenovo at the senior executive level.

 

I've got news for you: had any laptop manufacturer thought that they would benefit from a store in NYC, LA or DC there would've been one by now. the bottom line is: there's way too much involved, with no tangible benefits. In the days when premium ThinkPad models were $3K or more, IBM didn't have a single one on display, and they did own a building in a premier NYC location...

As previously stated - and please don't take it personally because it's NOT directed towards you - I'm not buying that story.

I'm not crazy about the keyboard on EliteBooks and I made that known. There is no such thing as "worse" layout than the one on current ThinkPads, though, unless you threw a layout of a language that I have no comprehension of at me...

No. As I've already said several times, I'm done.

 

We've got a HP 8560p or something in our house, basically the equivalent to Lenovo's T520.

Yes, the keyboard is not as good, but it is decent, which is more than you can say of certain other brands.

Most importantly, it has a much better build quality than any of the recent ThinkPads. It also has a nice touchpad with dedicated buttons, something we probably won't be seeing anymore any time soon. The Trackpoint is different, but not bad either if you use the ThinkPad caps.

I'm probably abandoning ThinkPads too, after the keyboard change I don't see any reason as to why I should stick with them. Elitebooks seem like the next best option. This won't keep me from collecting old ThinkPads though.

 

Suddenly this thread and any other thread pertaining to Lenovo and the new crop of ThinkPads is a good place to unleash some therapeutic catharsis

 

I have. I loved the Helix for its ability to be both a full Win8 notebook and full Win8 tablet but not so much the 6-row keyboard and TrackPoint buttons in the touchpad.



Sent from my iPhone 4S using Tapatalk

 

Right. Here in this thread is many OT. The main topic, the T431s / X230s, was not discussed since some pages...

@600X,
then do it. But you can be sure, HP will take a very similar road as Lenovo. Just look on products like the Elitebook Revolve, which will maybe replace the former Elitebook Tablets, which comes without a TrackPoint and a Clickpad, or the Elitebook 9470m, which is very similar to the T431s, including Drop-Down-Hinges. You can´t escape from these trends. Also, which Elitebook do you want? The 12"ers 2570p with the 165nits TN display? Remember: All Elitebooks smaller than 15" lack the middle-button for the TrackPoint AFAIK.

When it comes to build quality, I think Lenovo has made big improvement here on products like the T430u, the X1 or the ThinkPad Twist (which I have here in my home, very impressive build quality, thanks to the all rubberized magnesium chassis). I don`t think build quality will be much an issue on the new ThinkPads, like the T431s and the X230s.

I am sorry for that, it is not my intention to make such strong claims. It is maybe because English is not my main language. My statements should just reflect my knowledge and my opinion.

I am not working for Lenovo, and while I have seen some parts of the world, there are many more to discover.

Yes, but you are the only member here as far as I know.

 

The 15" HP doesn't have a middle button either. Not a big deal though, back when I had my 600X I didn't know how to use it anyway.

I'm probably gonna settle for the 14" models or perhaps 12" with IPS mod, though if I want something small I'd rather get myself a MacBook air which is allot more portable.

If HP does take a similar road there are always those fully rugged notebooks as a final escape plan.

BTW, OT ftw!

 

Andreas is another, but he usually just lurks here (and prefers his Yoga to most everything anyway).




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^^^^^ This times zillion and five.

I was not kidding when I stated that my A31p shall be buried with me a few years ago...

 

You see, I see no reasons for going with Elitebooks. They are havy, design-wise they are Apple-Clones, expect of the 8xxxw series, and I absolutly hate the cold metal feeling of the chassis. As you noted, they lack the middle-button of the TrackPoint, which is a deal-breaker for me, since I use this function very often. Also, I can´t stand a worse TrackPoint and a worse typing experience, even if they are better than the average notebook. Beside of that, I don´t like HP many HP products, and I think they are going down, and I estimate that they will leave the PC-business in some time.

My point is (thats what is annoying): You haven´t seen any of the new TPs beside the T431s and the X230s, and you don´t know what they will look like, but I seems that you know exactly how they will look like. You also don´t know how the new Elitebooks will look like (major chassis design is two years ago there, time for a new one), but you are sure that they will maintain things like the TouchPad buttons or the drop down hinges (hey, the 9470m has drop down hinges: If Lenovo would produce them, you would be sure that all Elitebooks will come with these). It is like writing about the dark in a very pessimistic way about ThinkPads and a very optimistic way about Elitebooks. Elitebooks have also no dedicated volume keys, but still these are Elitebooks, it is not important for you. The fact is: HP tends to build heavy machines with even crappier screens (with the exclusion of the 85xxw and 87xxw series), worser keyboards, which are more expensive, and they have a much smaller lineup. They build quailty is maybe better on some models, but thats only achieved by the heavy use of metal, which bumps up the weight. Where is their advantage? The only one which is really better than the corresponding ThinkPad is the 8570p, just because of the Dreamcolor screen, but you have to sacrifice Optimus (not a big deal). Where is HP really innovating? Or: Where is their flagship device to challenge the ThinkPad Helix. I know the answer: They have none.

Those rugged notebooks aren´t really good for normal use. They are too expensive, too heavy. I wouldn´t use one unless I am in the army or working outdoor. Sorry, but this is really no alternative. You can´t stick to the old things forever. What will you do in 20 years? Maybe will keyboards and mice stop to exist?

There is absolutely no reason to go with the worst option. A MBA incorporates all things you hate.

Yeah, right, I didn´t know he is here in this forum too, but I know him from the German ThinkPad-Forum.

 

I am also a fan of yoga, which has a lousy touchpad but the touchscreen greatly reduces the need for a touchpad.

 

I may not know how the new ThinkPads (e.g. T431s, X230s) will look like exactly, but I do know enough to say that I won't like them. Heck, I don't even like the X220, but I just needed something that could get the job done, so I didn't care about any of those smaller details. It's got a good battery life, IPS, performance and is compact.

As a matter of fact, I stated that we won't be seeing those anymore.

You're the exact opposite, always praising Lenovo, so I guess we're even.

So what, HP uses horrid screens, it's not like Lenovo's bad TN's are any better. Both have their line of laptops with good displays. Older ThinkPads didn't have Optimus either BTW. It's not like I'm gonna need a good screen anyway, or are you seriously trying to tell that doing stuff with graphics is possible on a 12 or 14" screen?

The new ThinkPads don't have any volume control options either.
My only reason to go for HP apart from design (I prefer it to the new TP design) is build quality. I was really shocked when testing all the different models. Those things are built like tanks. I don't care about weight. The 600X wasn't exactly gonna win the lightest laptop award, but it sure was rigid. Exactly the kind of thing I am looking for.

I've never been a fan of tablets, so the Helix was never gonna win my heart over anyway.

They are so expensive in fact, I would only ever buy slightly older models which have become cheaper over the years. What an evil plan. But hey, it has worked out with ThinkPads, so why not. Fully rugged is my last resort, luckily semi-rugged is also an option. Just because such notebooks might not appeal to you doesn't mean they don't appeal to me.

Commit suicide.

Seriously though, I'd just convert to Apple. Speaking of, the MBA looks good and has 16:10, so why not.

 

Nein, nein, nein, nein, nein, nein, nein!



Sent from my iPad Retina using my finger

 

Yeah, right.

You are only talking about T431s / X230s, you don´t know the rest of the new lineup. If you judge the hole lineup looking on bot of these things, why not judge the HP lineup by looking at the Elitebook Revolve?

I think you still overestimate the importance of T431s / X230s. They are just mainstream-X1 Carbons, just an addition to the line. They are not going to replace all ThinkPads.

Ah, so you prefer the Apple-Design (because HP has no own design).

So I assume you know the build quality of the new ThinkPads? The Twist is also very well build for example. If Lenovo incorporates the technology of the X1 Carbon within the T431s / X230s, they will be also very well build. Or just look at this picture, showing an unknow next-gen ThinkPad:

I looks like it will be build like a tank. I don´t know which model this will be.

Because they incorporate everything you hate. You would leave ThinkPads for a Macbook Air? Seriously?

 

So dramatic!

I have Apple, Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo and Samsung computers (listed in alphabetical order) in my collection. Would you consider me a crazy person? (And I don't care if you would.)

Lenovo is nothing. I use some of its products, as needed. I don't identify myself with it.

 

I take it you feel the X1 Carbon is superior to the current generation MacBook Air. Correct?

 

Actually, if I had to choose between the X1 Carbon and the MBA, I'd give the MBA a serious consideration. This is in spite of me not being a fan of Apple at all. But the MBA can hold its own against its competition imo.

 

I think you underestimate it. I'm quite sure they will implement most of these models "features" into the coming main ThinkPads models.

Compared to the T431s and X230s yes, though I still favor HP's boxier approach.

I assume you have held them in you hands too? ThinkPads are already well built, just not quite as good as they used to be. I highly doubt that ThinkPad in the picture will be anything even close to tank-like, the lid is way to thin and fragile. But then of course how could I tell such a thing from a picture. I guess you'll have to prove me wrong.

If it means 16:10 duh? Who wouldn't? So it has a drop-down hinge. Big deal. Anything else? Oh yes, a six row keyboard. Guess I'm not missing out on anything.
OK, it may be white, but I'm sure you can paint it black.
If all fails, there's always a MacBook Pro with Retina screen. (which can be painted black too, I hope )

Oh, yes yes yes!

I used to have an EEE PC you now, it's not like there is only one brand out there.

 

Here's my 15" 16:10 Retina MacBook Pro which I normally run at 1920x1200 in both OS X and Windows 8.

 

I thought the point of ThinkPads was that they don't break in the first place.

Haha! That's a good one. Protip: Competitiveness is a function of value, price and market size. Even if *you* value your completely tricked out oh-das-shiny SparklePad, even if you are willing to pay thousands of dollars, it doesn't matter if no one else shares your opinion.

If Lenovo were able to build a sailboat out of toothpicks, with excruciating detail and even a few customers willing to pay up, they'd be out of business within a quarter or two if they ever went that route. There simply aren't enough people with that kind of pain. Tell me how "out of business" aligns with "competitive".

 

Anything and everything designed and built by humans is liable to break...

Your point being...

 

Mountains can break, too

 

Well, thats not my point. It is about 600X, I kno him from the German ThinkPad-Forum, and he is constantly writing about leaving the ThinkPad-Brand (but he don´t do it), bcause the changes of the ThinkPad line. It is unlogical if he says, that he we´ll leave ThinkPads to use an Macbook because it already incorporates all the things he hates about the changes of the Think-line (drop-dwon hinges, Clickpad, Chiclet keyboard, all parts non-user-replacable, being very thin etc.). So I woulnd´t consider you as crazy, but him.

Well, I´ve never compared them side by side, but overall, looking on the specsheets: Yes, since the X1 Carbon comes with a TrackPoint and a matte Display, which are both very important to me. I don´t see whats so special about the MBA.

 

Neither do I, but there must be something since Lenovo - as well as pretty much everyone else - are bending over backwards in order to create a MacBook-killer but no one has quite gotten there yet...

 

I have also noticed certain similarities between those two. There also seem to be a bunch of other notebooks that are trying to reach a similar goal, how do you call them? Ultrabooks?

Abandoning ThinkPads doesn't mean I'm gonna sell all the TP's I own. It just means I'm not gonna be buying any of the newer models anymore and given the recent changes, I don't see why one shouldn't believe me.

I'll keep my eyes on some iconic ThinkPads.

 

Specs sheets are only part of the story. Some things you really have to experience. You can't substitute experience. It's the reason my collection is diverse and includes selections from several vendors.

 

Many people live on Google bits these days. They think search results are knowledge.

 

What do you mean? The "magical experience" of a MBA? I have touched them several times and tryed them out, and I still don´t see whats so special compard to many UltraBooks. Compard with the Asus Zenbook or some Samsung UltraBooks it feels very much outdated.

 

I second this.

On paper you will all agree the X220 is far superior compared to the X301 in pretty much every aspect. (except perhaps screen res. but hey, IPS makes up for that!)

Yet I prefer the X301 over my X220, the overall experience is just so much more enjoyable.

Just having contact with a laptop won't unleash the "magic" upon you, it is essential to make the computer part of your daily life.

 

You can´t look on a spec sheet without looking on the price and the age, the X220i is of course better, because it is newer. How much did your X220i cost? 690 €? And now imagine how much the X301 did cost when it was new. All the money goes into the details, the chassis etc. You can also see what material is used, the X220i just uses ordinary Magnesium and plastic for the base, while the X301 uses high-quality Carbon and Magnesium in a mix, and it comes with an all rubberized chassis. Thats also in the spec sheet. If you think "Hey, this 600 € notebook has more ports and more power than this 2000 € notebook, so it is better", your thinking is pretty unlogical, because you forget about the rest.

This "magic" is maybe there, but it is also there on other Notebooks. The original X1 has also a king of really cool "magic" to it. Both are flagship products. The X220i is not.

No. A "magic" is there on the first few moments, or in the first few weeks, but this effect disappears after a time, when the device gets an ordinary part of you life. My L520 also had a magic in the first days. Now, it is just my daily-driver.

But this discussion is too much OT. I won´t continue it. The topic is "T431s / X230s" - open a new thread if you want discuss the other things, or this thread will be closed. Otherwise, the thread is getting nowhere.

 

Regarding those two systems - I've pretty much given up on any laptop manufacturer for now.

I had hoped that a new, post-Retina-MBP ThinkPad would have an acceptable display to counter any fruity threat. Not so.

Overall, I think Apple really is shipping the system to aspire to right now. Of course, ThinkPad features are completely absent, such as the TrackPoint, good Linux support, maintainability…

Now, we have the choice between an awesome non-ThinkPad and middling ThinkPads. I was hoping to find a suitable replacement for my T30 this year. (It does run, but I need VT-x now.)

What I actually *can* sink my money in this year is tablets and desktops. The former come with great displays as is, and the latter I can attach to a great display.

The striking feature about Apple are the displays. I don't think the upper echelons at PC manufacturers really get this. Or they are afraid because a good display can easily double BOM cost.

 

Regarding the display, I think T431s and X230s won´t get higher resolutions since they are still members of the Ivy-Bridge lineup. I would wait for Haswell ThinkPads (which will maybe announced on the annual Lenovo Accelerate Partner Forum at the End of April, see: Lenovo Accelerate 2013 Channel Partner Forum) if you wait higher resolution. I estimate that thsi step will come this year. Still, Displays are not Lenovos prime priority, but just look on the devices Lenovo announced on CES 2013: Edges with FHD, IdeaPads start to get HD+ (Z400 Touch), there will be this Touch-Monitor with a 13" 1600x900 IPS display, the ThinkPad Helix with a great 11,6" FHD IPS screen. Thats the right way. T431s / X230s are just a minor step.

 

i really hope the new Thinkpads get quality screens this year as you say. not necessarily high res, but rich colors and contrast plus IPS. if its the new Carbon that gets this screen, i'll get that. if they include them in the rest of the lineup, i'll likely opt for one of the T series models.

high quality screen and a model with thunderbolt is all i want from my next thinkpad.

 

I totally agree. I can evaluate a machine against my technical requirements and pretty much tell if there is a show stopper in the first week or two.

The real character of a machine is revealed after. Sometimes months after. You can't test life in two weeks.

 

They better make them a prime priority. "Just" full HD or "just" IPS is not going to be enough going forward. A standalone display needs a calibration story. And the Helix couldn't really look flimsier than it already does… Nothing about the revealed future lineup is truly convincing. Still, I'd like to know more about any changed details of the minor revisions - the T431s and X230s are nothing but that, after all.

 

"20 years of ThinkPad" is actually starting to be old. Imagine if you were still using walky talkies. The brand needs to change, but rather than instantly brining something completely different (like what BlackBerry just did,) Lenovo is gradually changing the ThinkPad brand making new users (like me) to think it was like this all along. If this were an instantaneous change, they would likely keep the old models around for a year before completely comverting.

Here is my criticism for the T431s and the X230s (along with the E431 and E531.) :
1. Yes some people like bigger clickpads, but the clickpad space isn't even maximized even after having removed the physical buttons. There is still space between the clickpad and the keyboard/bottom; the physical buttons on the edge are also gone.
2. There are no visual markers for the existance of the trackpoint right/left clicks... it's as if Lenovo don't want people to know they had existed...
3. The trackpoint buttons served for 2 purposes: to be used, and to not accidentally trigger the touchpad. We thinkpad users are already used to place our thumbs there. Lenovo will need some pretty precised palm/thumb rejection.
4. When Lenovo replaced the keyboard, they had the support of quite a few people who experience the keyboard on the original X1 (and the new Edge series too.) This time around, the glass clickpad on the X1 Carbon was praised but not it's integrated click function. Most people actually despised it on the E430 and E530. For Lenovo to add a good and responsive glass clickpad (although i like the textured ones,) fixing the bottom clicks AND add the top clicks is going to be challenging (expecially with fitting 3 buttons on the top row)
5. The new hinges... wow. If they're like the ones on the E430, I'm going to cry; but they're like the ones on the X1 Carbon, I am still sad. The E430 can't be opened naywhere near flat. The ones on the X1 Carbon goes to about 175 degrees, but requires the bottom of the screen to actually support the body. You can tell that they're just like the ones on the X1 Carbon as the silvery part of the hindge goes all the way down to the bottom of the laptop, meaning that the bottom of the screen will be partially under the base as soon as it is opened (likely won't touch the ground depending on height of rubber feet on the bottom)

Some nice (but crazy and highly unlikely improvements Lenovo can make)
1. Just looking at it, people have no idea that it is a 5-button clickpad. Paint on 2 horizontal red lines for the upper buttons and a vertical line at the bottom to separate the 2 keys (or even add texture) Also, it would be nice if the middle was also clickable as Lenovo seems to like "uniformality"
2. Actually maximize the space of the trackpad, or truly minimize the size of the chassis
3. Curve the trackpad such that they aren't uncomfortable... or even allow it to be a separate clickable entity. (Samsung can do with with a touchscreen, I expect Lenovo can do it with a black pad)

What I think the future of ThinkPad (and Laptops in general) will be like:
1. Higher resolution/quality standard (the minimum should be 1600x900 for 14" in 2013, 1920p by 2015, ThinkPads actually dropped in PPI standard when transfering from 4:3 to 16:9)
2. Thinner, smaller, lighter (should be a gradual reduction, but with processor speed not being as important and Intel really pushing it, expect ultrabook domination sooner)
3. Unification of ports (USB is taking over, expect legacy ports to only be available via adapters, the CD drive will be the underdog option, Lenovo already plans on killing off alot with their OneLink adapter)
4. Alternative input (touch, voice, eye tracking, mind reading? this thread will become meaningless by then)

2-4 are all part of the reductionism trend. I am not saying that the machine will be less capable, but more capable with less. You may have heard of e-ink, Microsoft Surface, and the BlackBerry10. What if we made a physical keyboard they can change the letters on them by applying e-ink, then coupling touch input with BB10' keyboard software to make an words come out instantaneously. The advancement of technology today is they the machines are "smarter" while we can get dumber (reminds me of the first time I used a GPS)

Bets on the T440 or the T450?

 

Hi all,

does anyone have info about when the T431s or X230s are intended to be launched?
Any hints on the screen res?

thanks a lot
Hecke

 

They should be announced in March.

The manuals say that it will stay the same as T430s / X230. But we will see if this info is valid when they will be announced.

 

Do we know the size of battery in the x230s yet? Anything over 50whr would tempt me.

 

I'm guessing around 40Wh perhaps, after all it is a 12" chassis and not the thickest either. This should give you about 6h of battery life.

We'll have to await more detailed information.

 

Lenovo N2C2BSP THINKPAD X230S 3320M 4/500 12W 3G ordenadores Portátiles en tienda.manchanet.es

 

That appears to be an mistake, just search for the model number of this machine (N2C2BSP), and you will see: It is a X230 Tablet.

 

Does the x230t have a 3 cell battery?

 

Yes, there is also a 3c battery available for the X230t.

 

Just my 2 cents here: I haven't owned any of the "classic" Thinkpads, though I do have an x120e. Personally, I actually like the new design here - it's cleaner and a bit more modern while still maintaining the Thinkpad business look. The only thing that worries me is the lack of physical Trackpoint buttons - at the very least, the height of the touchpad is different than the physical buttons, and the drivers aren't necessarily great (they're OK on my x120e now, but the multitouch and 2 finger scrolling were terrible for a while, not to mention the original drivers kept messing up my scrolling settings). Hard to say if that would be an issue though.

As for batteries, I'm mainly hoping they don't permanently seal the battery in. At the very least, I'd want changing it to be as easy as changing the RAM in most machines, just in case if I have to replace it a few years later. (takes a few minutes and maybe a screwdriver, for instance) This is the kind of stuff they screwed up with the carbon (and the t430u meanwhile gets that right, but has a 1366x768 screen.. ughh...)