Thinkpad has gone down toilet.

she uses a T42p. i dont know much about it other than it being less sturdy than my T400.

 

With all these horror stories here on and on the official Lenovo forums I am becoming less and less inclined to buy a T400 myself.

 

Im sorry you had trouble, but because your small sample may be bad doesnt mean the whole series is bad. I have a dell vostro as my main PC and it is the most solid laptop I have used ever and I have to say my t400 is up there in toughness too. Although I do agree that previous thinkpads were more sturdy, but then again mine is built quite well. My flex is so minor even when I press extremely hard on the WASD area. would I buy a thinkpad again? Sure, I would have to have a copy of windows for a clean install though as I find the lack of this option or base software admin to be quite disappointing. Heck my dell that was cheaper came with the vista disc for a clean install. Other then that I love the laptop.

Well for what its worth I love mine, definitely worth every penny.

 

While a few of iGrim’s concerns in his OP have merit, most don’t. I’ve used several dozen notebooks over the years as well as approved the purchase of fleets of notebooks for numerous companies and this T400 is the best notebook I’ve ever owned. Granted, the quality of notebooks from several manufacturers has gotten better recently, but I received quite a decent value for my dollar with Lenovo.

 

Not so, I simply was saying that in some areas he could be right, but then didn't feel those areas of concern was really impacting most end users. You really need to quit trying to analyze and actually read what the post say, clearly you don't get it.

I have no problem with someone giving a certain opinion about the T400. I think you spend way too much time trying to argue with others and not enough time actually discussing the topic. You may try to actually add something to the topic, because thus far you've not done so.

The fact is one can see the issues that have been brought up and say YES, I understand the quality is lower on these machines compared to the pass. The question is has the quality reached a point that it impacts end users to be productive using them. I say NO! Quality vs Price point that is where Lenovo is now. I understand the complaint, I just don't agree that they impact the machine to the degree that the OP stated. I am certainly not going to cancel my orders for most of the nitpicky stuff he stated.

Now when you want to talk about the actual topic, let me know, if you want to yammer on about my post, then I suggest you use PM for that.

 

I have owned many many laptops, from my 80286 greyscale VGA from the late 80s early 90s to now. I have seen great laptops and I have seen really poor ones. My thinkpad has to be the second best built one of the ones I have owned, taking a distant second to my dell(this thing is freakishly built).

I, like many others, hate to see people blow certain things out of proportion. The keyboard flex is one of them. I have been using my thinkpad for ~3 weeks now at ~16 hours a day and have yet to find an issue with it. I'm VERY critical of my laptops for the first year as it is a test to see if it will stand the test of time. But for the life of me I cant find a darn thing wrong with mine. A clean install would be nice as I stated in my previous post, but then again nobody offers that option anymore (except MAYBE dell business).

Moral of the story for those who search this thread and many others, take what certain people bash and say with a grain of salt. Search the basher's post history and youll see negative post after negative post. It happens with every brand.

 

In what way is it less sturdy.

I've used all the T4x series they had to offer and they're pretty much similar on the whole except the T43 is slightly more stury on the keyboard than the T42 because they added a silicone support under the keyboard on top of the fan area.

The overall build of the plastic body is similar between the T400 and the T4x series. I actually like the T400 a bit more because they apprently added the rubberized finish on the BOTTOM of the case as well. THe T4x only has the top cover done this way. The gap between the plastic and the screen is also better for the T400 than the T4x which is flisy. THe T400 has these dedicated flaps which I believe are for their privacy filters. So all the spaces other than those spots for the flaps are snugly fit to the screen. The T4x has gaps all around for filling dust. The only difference in the negative for build quality in T400 is keyboard flex. You can try to press down on her T42p side by side with your T400 and you should see the difference. You can also go out to future shop and go and press on all their display laptops on the keyboard and will notice most brands (except prob an acer laptop that I've tried before) does not have a flex issue.

 

I would not let a thread like this be the determining factor on rather you buy or not. There is no doubt that most things built a long time ago versus now have changed. The question is can you buy this machine and be happy with it? I have about 24 staff that in April got these machines and I have yet to get one single solitary complaint. Most have told me the keyboards are fantastic one of the best they have used. My suggestion is buy one from a dealer that has a good return policy. Use it for a week and if you aren't convinced you can send it back. However, I suspect at the end of your test run, you'll decide to keep it. Granted many of those using these machines never had an older one and have nothing to compare it too. I on the other had have had many and I still find the keyboard totally acceptable.

We can't live based on what use to be, we have to move forward!

 

My 2 cents as well is I love my T400. I got mine in September just a month after release and it has been nothing but a pleasure to use. I don't have any of the issues that the OP stated. Off centered screen doesn't bother me and even though I got a replacement keyboard from Lenovo, the original wasn't a deal breaker. Between the T400 and T42 that I had, quality is still there in my opinion.

 

The T400 is still a better laptop than what HP or most other brands has to offer though (minus the keyboard). Plus they are offering good deals with the T400 now too. But the keyboard issue isnt a problem unless youre a perfectionist (like me) but even Im gonna get the T400 cause I need a replacement laptop now. I've tried the keyboard and if you are a normal typer it probably it is not noticible. Its certainly a new typing feel and experience compared to the old ones I have become used to for many years, but if this is your first one it makes no difference. It is only an issue you notice if theres is a standard from which to compare from past experience. On their merits alone I think its ok. Its only an issue when you have something to compare with. Plus don't even get me started with sony's casio calculator style keyboards.

About the noise issue, the T400 I tried was very quiet as expected from an unused laptop. Plus I think noise in general is unavoidable because there is obviously a mechanical device in there generating eddies somewhere... soooo..

 

1. the keyboard has just as much flex as my T400. its not a problem for me on either laptop though, i dont get what the complaints are about.

2. the left palm rest in the expresscard area, i have little flex on my T400 where as with the T42p there is considerable flex.

overall, when closed i'd say the T42p feels sturdier for some reason. it seems like the external case material is tougher and stronger, yet when opened and in use, I'd say the T400 is clearly sturdier in regards to flex.

 

Of course the thinkpads are not low quality. THey are still better or similar in build than most current brands. Only problem is, when comparing with itself, the current products have gone worse in areas, such as the keyboard for T400. May or may not be a deal breaker depending on preference.

But that is of course like asking one's wife if the blue or red tie will make one look better or not for a photo. In the grand scheme if one is a stud already youre still a stud with red or blue tie and if one is ugly they are still going to be ugly with red or blue tie or not.

 

Yea I cant remember now but the one I currently am using is the later model. It has an added silicone support that your T42 does not have. I suspect it was because of complaints being why they added that. I dont remmeber it being a flex issue with the T42 tho. Plus their keyboard isnt 'weight reduced' so theres going to be stronger bending strength than the T400 keyboard undoubtedly. Certainly if you prss on the right side of the T42 (which is constructed similar to the T43) there sould not be flex but I noticed flex on the T400 even on the right side.

Yes, the express card area flexes there for T4x series. As well there is flex on the right side on the border near the ultrabay.

Technically I think the T400 should have a better roll cage for the screen cause its convex so on a flat fall screen side it is more structurally supported. But I also had that feeling and I think it came from the the T400 not being able to close snugly. THe T4x closes more snuggly.

 

Plenty of criticism in here, not enough constructive posts... I bought a T400 knowing about the keyboard flex and that it seemed easy enough to fix. No laptop is perfect. With basic modding skills just DIY until satisified.

http://forum.notebookreview.com/showthread.php?t=379432

 

Uhh.. I don't think you should be doing that first of all. Unless youre using some polymer capable of high temp operation like a high density highly cross-linked elastomer like silicone or something. but its still not ok to do this i think. You are also using commercially available 3m foam tape. Also youre altering the nature of heat transfer in the laptop although its likely a non issue. Ultimately I dont think its safe, and I dont think customers should have to do this.

 

I think you guys all got trolled. Trolled hard.

 

It's possible, but generally, the responses have been constructive, rather than flaming, so I don't think it has been an unproductive thread.

 

I agree. Sadly this is the problem with open registration forums.

 

A lot of it has been rather opinionated, and yes, we did get trolled, but at least it did not get too out of hand.

 

If you are happy or unhappy with a product, it generally is a result of your expectations. Two people can get the exact same product, and their reactions can be quite different due to their expectations.

I have not seen the T400, but I have used two T500s. The second T500 received in late March had horrid keyboard flex (this was after the “fix” . I was able to get a T61 keyboard (just like the one on the T500 delivered in January) and it was much, much better.

The only one of the points the original poster made that I don’t agree with is #6. I don’t care about the off center design at all, doesn’t bother me a bit. But after re-reading it he says that nobody “likes” it, so perhaps that is true, I just don’t care.

I would have added to the list that in the new Thinkpads Lenovo crippled the stereo sound recording of the laptop, and the vertical viewing angles of the screen are quite limited, and I find that much, much, much more annoying than the off center design.

My main concern in getting a Thinkpad is what parts will you get. Which one of the 3 different keyboards (each with a different feel), which one of the screens (each with plusses and minuses). You can get two “identical” Thinkpads and end up with similar machines but appear and feel a bit different.

Would I buy another Thinkpad, yea most likely I will. I like the trackpoint (who else has them?), it is reasonably quiet, and reasonably sturdy. I also prefer the matte screen.

Is the T500 in the same class, construction wise, as my ten year old 600e (which I still use on an almost daily basis for monitoring hardware)? Nope it isn’t. The 600e is built like a tank.

But you generally get what you pay for, and as others have mentioned the Thinkpad is not as expensive as they were before. We purchased two Thinkpad T500’s for less than the cost of one 600e, and that isn’t taking inflation into account, so we probably could have purchased three T500’s for the cost of the old 600e in terms of constant dollars.

 

I agree completely about the trackpoint + middle-mouse button. If one is using Internet Explorer, it is virtually unusable. With light pressure, it scrolls too slowly. With slightly more pressure, it accelerates uncontrollably to the end of the page. How did they mess that one up? The Dell Latitude E6400's middle-mouse button works flawlessly.

When I use Firefox, however, the middle-mouse button is much more manageable.

 

There is no trolling going on here. To further prove my point...

The company I work for has a few hundred T60/T61s rolled out to our employees now both widescreen and standard screen units and a few dozen older t40/t41/t42 units still in the mix. I work in the IT dept and we have 12 of these T400 that we were developing a company specific image for. Here is a list of features on the T400 that have gotten UNDENIABLY worse from previous thinkpads like the t60/t61. One can not deny this list because we have compared these units side-by-side.

• Speaker sound quality has gone down.
• Trackpoint does not scroll smoothly anymore when you scroll webpages using the middle mouse button + trackpoint. This is a major defect IMO as I and others use this feature constantly.
• Flex has increased in the palmrests and keyboard
• Mouse pad has slightly more lag/sluggish feel and is not as "crisp" as our T60s
• Many T400s have been hard hit with the "C2D whine" (power components creating piezo effect) although this may vary from unit to unit.

The only good thing about the T400 IMO is that its quite fast and has a very nice GPU option (ATI HD3470) for a "thin and light" notebook.

 

Wow, well that certainly does suck to hear about all these negatives, compared just thier recent/past machines. I hope that when Lenovo launches thier next T series that it will not have as many issues (ie keyboard flex, etc.) as the T500/T400 did/does.
Oh well, here's to wishful thinking

 

Yes, This small yet VERY useful feature has been RUINED by some defect/engineering flaw in the T400. It just does not work correctly. It works like a dream on the t60/t61 units and its a HUGE shame they somehow screwed it up on the T400.

 

I dont know what you are talking about with the trackpoint and scrolling/functionality. But I can function extremely well with my trackpoint, in fact I never use anything else because it works so well. Web surfing is actually better with the trackpoint then with a mouse imho.

 

Yes, the scrolling speed is all wrong therefore the whole laptop must be crap. Besides, it's not like you can change the scrolling settings. Sheesh!

 

See Im using the standard setting from the factory and it works great! Im trying to wrap my head around how this is an engineering flaw, when I now prefer using the trackpoint to pretty much anything (usb mouse, touchpad, ect). Heck when I use my dell Im upset sometimes that I have to resort to a touch pad or mouse.

 

Yeah, that's a shame

That's because since the T61 there is only armor on the outside, and the pamlrest now counts as inside

Slower then with T61

New on T400? (I have a T61)

You probably got the wrong part in that case, I hear perfectly in the high-frequency spectrum and don't hear what you describe on my T61.

Note that there are mostly two FRU's for the HS/Fan.6. Same ridiculously thick screen bezel as the T61. When will Lenovo learn that the NOBODY likes the off center screen??? Its mind boggling they still implement this idiotic design.

Who cares about touchpads anyway?

I'm all in favor of removing them and shielding the wires to the line-out.

Relative to what? What's the better alternative?

Cool down

 

Mine also works perfectly. I use either trackpoint (aka tracknipple as per it's top secret code name) about 75% of the time or a mouse the rest of the time, but never the touchpad.

Long live lenovo!

 

Same here, but on the X200 I don't really have a choice

Actually even when I have my Logitech VX Revolution mouse plugged in, I find myself using the trackpoint to do most things. It's just so much easier than moving my hand all the way off the keyboard to the mouse... Even though the mouse itself is nicer to use. Yeah I think I'm getting too lazy

 

The touchpad is there to scroll using the entire touchpad with ONE finger, to off the A. freaks promoting their two-fingered scrolling

But I agree: a T400 w/o touchpad wouldn't be that bad.

Perhaps they should make it a resistive touchpad. Captive just never works for me.

 

The "Standard" setting for the trackpoint is very choppy; the Latitude's is much smoother. The "Smooth" setting for the trackpoint is terrible in Internet Explorer (not Firefox!). It either scrolls very, very slowly with light pressure or incredibly fast with slightly more pressure. Has anyone tried the "smooth" setting in IE? If not, try it.

 

Umm, IE? Does IE work with anything properly?
Hint: NO.

 

Your going to base your sample on 12 machines? That hardly seems definitive. Your points may have some validity. I certainly have seen some complaints regarding the keyboard. It's the first I've heard of the trackpoint issues and Lenovo is certainly not the only one with the infamous CPU.

Because you work in IT as you say does not give your opinion any more weight. We try to help each other here in a positive and constructive way. When you make a thread designed to provoke and come off as a bit of a pompous know-it-all, you're not going to make many friends here.

I think a lot of the issue as others have mentioned is the price of ThinkPads is way down. It's not a perfect world. I think Lenovo decided to make ThinkPads more accessible. I think the quality is still very good, perhaps not quite as good as before, but you were paying a lot less back then. It's sort of a scale with no right answer.

 

Shocking that a Chinese company has made the Thinkpad line of less quality than IBM...

 

The feel of TP is way better than the average/typical 700-800 dollar laptop. Especially for U.S. customers, there's a wide selection in the outlet for a very reasonable price. My NMB is by far the best keyboard I've ever used. The others all feel the same.

Ultranav exists for a reason and if you don't use it and complain about it..

 

People still do the whole...Chinese company line. Come on at least add something useful. There is no inherent inability of a chinese owned company vs US owned. A lot of Lenovo top management is American too.

 

I do not believe there is a nationality issue. People make the policy that corporations follow. In all nations there are reasonable caring people and greedy scoundrels. Its unfortunate, but my recent experience with lenovo would also support they have moved to the latter.

I will not purchase another lenovo product, and would recommend that you do not either. This statement is based on my experience with defective product and lenovo policy to selectively only consider facts that enable them to escape responsibility, and they are rude about it.

 

Did you try to escalate the issue? Ask to speak to a supervisor? The rep didn't want to send a keyboard and a palmrest for my friend at first. Then I made it sound like that I became more than upset... you know the drill.

Of course, every case is different.

 

That is legitimate. I just tire of people commenting on how horrible the products are because of the chinese ownership.

 

Being called a noob. Thats actually a new one for me.

And my T400 has been perfect. No CPU whine, no fan whine, only a slight amount of flex(with the original kb and chassis as well. Same thing with my friends T400. And my other friends T500's.

 

I find his statement hilarious (the one you quoted). I guess the 17 years of notebook ownership mean nothing, and I am now officially a noob again.

 

Being an adult and working as an IT professional do not guarantee maturity, especially on the internet .

 

OK there buddy.

 

Who the hell has the time to start a 10 page rant thread about a laptop? Don't you have better things to do? Like find a better laptop?

 

My T400 has been perfect for me. When I'm gaming my computer never get's hot.

 

I think two things are happening that make this seem worse- consumer notebooks are improving in quality, & premium/business brands are having to "consumerize" theirs to some degree in order to compete with budget brands. It opens their market up to the Big Box Store type shoppers, but also alienates the old-school die-hard fans who nitpick about things like color schemes changing, much less actually cutting corners.

So I hate to agree with the O.P., but I cannot deny SOME drop-off in quality around the T60/Z60 generation. I know those were already not quite the machines as the T40's were, but the T61 they sent me was not acceptable at all. I sent it back immediately, & that might have been the last T.P. I'll ever buy. I'll be clinging to my T60 for a while.

I also agree that T.P.'s legendary keyboards are not the default best anymore. That was ONE thing that pleasantly surprised me on a vaio recently, how solid their keyboard is. T.P.'s still have a positive click to depressing the keys, but also more flex now, there & in the entire case in general. Fit & finish are not as impressive, & my t-61's display was probably the worst I've seen on any notebook ever. Their I.P.S. panels are great, but I think those are history now too.

B.T.D.T.! I even had to contact the B.B.B. to help me get my money back from Lenovo, they acted like all their departments are so disconnected that no one could help me, the same person just kept forwarding messages on to someone they don't know & don't ever see, "sorry they didn't call you back, I'll update that request" etc. At one point they even started hanging up the phone on me! I.D.K. what nationality has to do with it, but right or wrong I won't pretend I don't notice when there are M.I.J. vs. M.I.C. stickers on the bottom of my notebooks, and what I get out of them.



J.M.O. & Y.M.M.V.

 

How can you be surprised if the US Federal Reserve prints up money so Americans can buy everything from overseas.

Sooner or later that is going to collapse and the US will unfortunately be the new developing country.

 

this guy claims he's an IT "professional" yet calls people noobs on a forum...

calling people noobs is reserved for the pre-pubescent teens... unless your out of touch with the internet and think its still cool to say that to people.

 

I can say with honesty that the keyboard on my T500 is not satisfactory. My R51's keyboard was rock-solid but this one bends and flexes.

After calling up Lenovo over and over again, they finally agreed to send me out a T61 keyboard as a replacement. Still, the fact that I even had to do that is disappointing and I hope this type of cost-cutting won't continue.