Thinkpad has gone down toilet.

According to the OP, you don't understand because you're just a noob.

 

Today at work I tried a coworker's T41 keyboard and I was not unimpressed.

The T41 did not feel much different than my T500's modified keyboard.
I have fixed/modified my T500 flex problem by placing felt padding under my keyboard.
The keys on the T500 and T41 are too clicky and there is a little play (bouncy) in the keys, just before they are pressed down firmly.


The best keyboard I know of is the Dell Vostro. That keyboard is awesome.

My 3 other Dell Inspiron laptop keys feel about the same as the T500.

Now seeing the T41, I don't think the older/better Lenovo keyboards are that much better than the T500.
Definitely not worth buying an older keyboard to replace the T500.

 

I feel that the dell inspiron keyboards are no where near the feel of the thinkpads. That being said I have not tried a t400 or t500 (only x200 out of the new thinkpads). That being said there are also 3 different brands of keyboard for the thinkpads so you might not like the click of some of them. I have an NMB keyboard which is the least clicky of the bunch.

 

I've had a t61p within the last year. I am just getting out of the hospital now and I have an Inspiron 9100 here. I find that the keyboards feel remarkably alike but that characters are introduced or added in the typing process by the Inspiron.

-Renee

 

Well, I've settled on Lenovo, hope it's a good choice, for $696.40 shipped for specs in sig it's a deal I cannot refuse.

 

I couldnt agree more on the vostro keyboard. I love my t400 keyboard, but its not as good as my 1700. Plus it doesnt have a real numpad .

You should try the vostro ones. Somewhat like the inspiron but a lot more support underneath that adds a lot to the experience.

Glad to hear this. I knew you had some skepticism due to all the negative nancys around here. You made the right choice imho. Enjoy it, I have for almost a month and I think this rig will become as reliable as my vostor has been. Hopefully you got the 9 cell as it is unbelievably nice to be able to work all day and still have battery life left.

 

newbie = someone new to the thing, but wanting to learn
n00b = not wanting to learn (Ben Bernanke* for example)

*could be in the liar section instead

 

Ordered, estimated ship date is 6/29, I hope it's a bit sooner though.

I was gonna get 3gigs but then realized that would cost me more than just getting a 2GB DDR3 DIMM from newegg and going 4GB.

 

I ordered mine on 5/19 and it said 6/27 as a ship date. Hopefully yours will arrive pretty soon, and wont get stopped by customs twice.

 

The Vostro has an excellent keyboard, but not a touch on my 5year old Dell Precision M70 (the old Latitude D800 with extras) keyboard. A piece of perfection. My daughter has an Inspiron 1525 and the keyboard is fine. The Thinkpad 61b keyboard is fine too, but quite different. All the above have good travel with a very firm base. Should be fundamentals with keyboard design.

 

you should get your hands on a t43. press anywhere on the keyboard. you will see the difference. that keyboard is rock-solid.

 

you do know that it was designed by the same honest folks from the ibm days right.

also its not hard to make something feel more solid. you can merely mould a block of polymer and it will be rock solid. the point is this laptop was poorly designed. and likely by the same folks that did previous designs. certainly somebody wasnt thinking cause they released a product i would consider as flawed and nobody picked up on it

 

Mine had a ship date of 6/24; it just shipped today (6/17).

Lenovo's estimates are usually conservative. Lessens upset customer issues over shipping.

 

So was the T41 keyboard. Don't know what he is talking about.

 

Too bad the rest of the case was more fragile.

 

I just got my T61 keyboard in the mail, FRU 42T3143, as a replacement for my T500 keyboard.

All I can is... wow, what a difference! This new T61 keyboard feels just like typing on my venerable R51's keyboard. It's rock solid and I don't notice any flex at all. In fact, I think it's better than my R51's keyboard because it's kind of clicky! I like the audible feedback I get from pressing the keys.

Now if only Lenovo would put this on the T500s as standard equipment.

 

I gave my T41 to my Father in law two weeks ago. If you compare T41 and T60 side by side I can tell you that T60's rock soild and T41's keyboard has few flex spots, especially top right side.

 

OMG you need to read about the X61T bezel issue. After owning one with that problem, and many other QC issues, I would reject a FREE Lenovo if it meant I had to use it everyday. The stress and pain it inflicted makes it hard to be rational about ANY of Lenovo's products. They all suck eggs in my book.

 

Oh yes there is. You can tell China is figuring things out... things that the US and other developed nations figured out in the 1950's. By figured out, I mean having enough experience to create the institutions that make top notch, world class companies like IBM even possible. It is currently impossible for a top notch high technology company to exist soley in China. They just don't have the systems in place to make it happen. Imagine teenager (China) vs. middle aged corporate executive (US). You have to remember that China are running a capitalist / socialist hybrid system that currently suits their level of development. Look at the difference in the "companies" that communist and capitalist systems can create and their levels of technology. Why did the USSR fall?

Econ 101 for you!

 

I would love to know which ones..cuz i'm in the market for a new laptop and i want one with a build quality better than lenovo =)

 

That didn't really have anything to do with basic economic theory...unless you were trying to imply some state in a growth model. I am aware that China does not have the same high research capacity as the US. However read what I said. I said there is no inherent inability. Thinkpads are not designed in China; Lenovo is not strictly 100% Chinese its resources and personnel.

You could say that Lenovo's management is taking an entirely different direction for the Thinkpad line or making compromises you do not like, but it has nothing to do strictly with being Chinese owned is all my point. Now I am aware that many Chinese companies completely disregard law, IP, safety, etc but we're talking issues that are more a result of less time and money spent on QC or perhaps design compromises.

 

Exactly. What was the price of a Thinkpad a few years back? Definitely not afforable at all for me, and although they were and still are products whose quality is above many other alternatives, I would not (and can not) pay $3000 for a computer.

You're free to express that you do not like the direction that Lenovo is going (more affordability, and perhaps some cuts in QC), as jaredy said, but do not pin that on the fact that they are a Chinese company. That's just nearsighted and potentially offensive.

 

True, Lenovo's management is taking the Thinkpad line in an entirely different direction. However, it wouldn't be in a position to even contemplate that if it weren't given a huge loan by the Chinese government to buy the entire Thinkpad business. It wouldn't have the general business knowhow, resources or technical ability to create a line of laptops like that from scratch. So what we have in Lenovo is the incompetent, being bosses and having control over the brilliantly competent.

A Chinese company is inherently unable to develop world class products for themselves. Look how long it took a companies like Sony and Samsung to go from being manufacturer's of electronic junk to market leaders? I am guessing that Lenovo, in terms of technical ability and business nouce would be in the same state that Samsung was in the 1980's if it wasn't for that huge Chinese government loan. Things that enabled Samsung and Sony to develop that way were affected by the development of the whole country. University research, government legislation and policies, other high tech companies... etc, etc, etc. Basically they do not grow in isolation.

Are you trying to say that a capitalism vs. communism analysis isn't about economics?!

 

I dont know, the T400s which i use now, is probably the best thinkpad i've ever had (i briefly used t40, t60 series before, and own a regular T400 right now as well). The fit and finish and build quality are way beyond other, even pre-lenovo products, and the keyboard is MUCH better. The t400 and t60 feel like clunky toys next to it. Now if only they could bring the quality panels back. If t400s is anything like the refresh they are planning on other T models, lenovo will have a definite winner on their hands chinese or not chinese.

 

I heard that Lenovo are really trying with their premium products like the x301 and t400s. The incompetent have told the competent to do their best for their special products.

My friends X301 is marvellous.

But two good models does not make a great company!

 

I'm still confused as to why you insist that "A Chinese company is inherently unable to develop world class products for themselves." Your argument hinges on the belief that "University research, government legislation and policies, other high tech companies" are all absent. Heads up, China hasn't exactly been hiding in a cave for the last 20 years.

They now graduate more engineering students than does the US. Granted, their universities aren't up to par yet, and many graduates are unequipped to find jobs, but they've lured an IMMENSE amount of international talent to bolster their schools.

I would think that it's irresponsible, if not downright dangerous, to ignore the fact that China's time has come to be a major international player in politics, technology, and economics. If you could find links to evidence to prove the opposite, please post them so we could better learn what's going on.

Sorry about the semi-OT post.

 

Seem to be that Lenovo is developing some premium products, but the problem is that by letting quality of the non-s models slip Lenovo risks tarring the entire thinkpad range with the same brush, so to speak. Anyone that doesn't know the thinkpad line is not gonna think the T400s is any better than the T400 that they've been reading so many grumbles about.

Lenovo acquired a business that had developed a range of laptops with very specific advantages (excellent build quality, superior ergonomics, not swayed by the latest laptop trends) and they'd be silly to try and reinvent the range around new features, to try and compete on the latest "fashionable" design trends, or to cut costs to the extent that they lose those advantages. Then they'd essentially be destroying the brand.

 

Those companies are Japanese and Korean respectively. I suggest you find a better example.

 

A bit overly dramatic wouldn't you say?

Here's the reality of buying a notebook circa 2009. In the world we live in, where the internet makes it much easier to put the squeeze on manufacturers, Lenovo and all manufacturers have to find the right balance between cost and features/performance. Every dollar they raise prices costs them sales. I would say Lenovo has put more effort into making ThinkPads more accessible. It's a good thing because many people here wouldn't be able to afford them otherwise, but the quality isn't quite what it used to be, though still better than any notebook you'll get walking into BestBuy. It's not really a right or a wrong, but more of a scale.

 

If IBM was so great, why on earth did it decide to get rid of the PC division?

The philosophy has changed a bit but the Chinese has sent astronauts to the space and have plenty of other state-of-the-art products and technologies that only a handful of developed countries possess.

The company's strategy has changed a bit but they will keep improving in the sole goal of maximizing the profits, where a lot of companies have failed miserably.

 

you see this kind of rhetoric all the time. my observation is that people typically and unfairly dislike lenovo as a company because of deep-rooted (a) racist or (b) nationalistic reasons relating to lenovo being a chinese company. this is related to the media.

furthermore, humanity's problem has always been people's inability to form fair opinions that are free from influences of emotional and other forms of bias. we call this bigotry. this inability to separate out bias in decision making is also why not many people can be judges.

let me tell you why 'student' and others in his stance are bigots in a sense. thinkpads are designed, give or take, by the same group of people since the days of IBM. to my understanding they are also designed primarily in the US and japan. this means most lenovo employees responsible for thinkpads (i.e. former IBM employees) are people currently living in developed nations (the US and japan), who most likely grew up and were educated in developed nations also. now, you didnt think that lenovo fired everyone from IBM after they aquired IBM PC and replaced them with all chinese ppl did you? (I will feel sorry for you if you are this ignorant). the point of any business acquision is to acquire their advantagous assets and use it to their advantage (this includes their employees). the 'think-' brandname alone is hardly worth the cost of acquiring the entire IBM PC divison. so, in other words, the whole rambling by 'student' and others about china being an industrializing country and for this reason alone is unable to design good products because of the surposed lack of infrastructure or people, is just a completely ignorant statement. If the original design and prototypes of modern thinkpads were proper, but that the mass produced units have lackluster quality, then issues lie in their engineering and quality control department (whoever is responsible).

onto issues about IBM. IBM analyzed the personal computing industry. the executives decided IBM should shift their corporate goals and pull out of the PC industry to adapt to a changing economy. back a decade or so ago, PCs were out of reach of the mass market. IBM back then was absolutely one of the dominant leaders. this all went on for a decades or so. with the eventual entrance of competitors in the PC industry, IBM naturally lost their dominance in market share.

the fact that thinkpads have been getting a lot cheaper has _more_ to do with economies of scale and technological improvements than corporate directives. the fact is all laptops are getting cheaper. this is because all OEM parts suppliers (e.g. Intel) have been growing also, thus these OEMs enjoy economies of scale. technolgical improvements also meant better products can be made cheaper per unit for OEMs. although lenovo's directives certainly have an influence on the price of thinkpads also. however, i disagree with the argument that thinkpads are a lot cheaper now purely because of the company's conscious business goals for the thinkpad line. corporate directives certainly has influence on the price of the product, but laptops are just cheaper in general because of economies of scale and technological improvements. competition also ensures profit margins cant be too extreme.

onto the current state of thinkpads. it certainly does appear thinkpads have gone down in perceived quality. that is: keyboards should not flex; plastic parts should not be loose, etc. there are also styling issues like having a centered screen etc. I disgaree with people's suggestion that low price products are commensurate with low quality, and that consumers should essentially 'suck it up'. I dont think its too much to ask in 2009 by expecting companies to make solid quality products, especially when humanity's even contemplating such frontiers of engineering as nanotechnology and space travel. most of the modern thinkpad related quality issues people complain about appear to be easily fixable in the design or quality control. I also agree with others that such lapse in quality control should not be acceptable anymore, especially for their sake and for the sake of all loyal thinkpad fans. competition is relentless nowadays and if your competitors do better than you, then they squeeze you out of the market. I wouldnt want to see that happen to thinkpads either so I hope they get their act together. furthermore, customer service should be improved as well. That is: delivery times need to be improved (both in time to delivery, and an accurate forecast always given, e.g. the 6-7 months wait i heard someone enduring is unacceptable). I think they can also benefit by improving their tech support because the last time I dealt with them I was dealt with some rude tech (i think in atlanta call center) who left a bad taste in my mouth (these lackluster employees can leave a bad impression of the company even though they may not reflect the corporate goals of the company).

 

Useroflaptops: Thank you for your post, I wouldn't have been able to describe the situation as you have even with your amount of time and stamina.

 

I agree with nearly all of your points @user but with one minor exception.

IMO it's nothing to do with who designs the laptops but the company that is comissioning the design and what its business/management/shareholder culture is. You can have the best designers the world, but if the company they're designing for wants them to compromise in various ways, be it for cost, manufacturer preferences, target market or whatever, then the designs they turn out will be compromised.

I felt that Thinkpad T-series quality was slipping even before Lenovo took over (which was dismaying itself becasue IBM had spent a decade resurrecting the Thinkpad line's reputation from its former "stinkpad" days of proprietary hardware nightmares). Now I feel it's slipping faster. I can only assume it's also linked to the price reductions we've seen in recent years and IMO that's a bad sign that indicates Lenovo is going for higher volume markets. And we all know where that got Dell et al.

I don't care that lenovo is Chinese. It could be a Swedish company and my argument would still be the same. Lower prices and evidence of lower quality means we're potentially no longer getting the "best" design, just the best for the price. Some might ask "what's wrong with that?" Nothing, except I get the impression a lot of thinkpadders want to pay a premium to retain what drew them to the line in the first place -- reliable, well made and ergonomically wonderful (if boring) laptops with bomb-proof support.

Perhaps the T400s and X301 are signs that Lenovo is still interested in the lower-volume higher-end markets, but IMO those two machines are still design-constrained (fewer options, smaller drives etc.) perhaps because they are clearly targeting the Macbook market rather than discerning business customers.

I just can't help getting the sinking feeling that Lenovo is heading down entirely the wrong path -- one that leads to a large hole that Dell and HP are only now climbing out of.

But then what do I know?

 

Great post. I do feel though that User's post was more a response to Student's posts than a standalone. Look to the previous page for what I'm referencing to.

 

Yeah, saw that. Oops. Oh well.

Forgot to include in my post above that if Lenovo can make money with consumer PCs where IBM failed then kudos to them. However, the economic road is littered with the corpses of companies that focused on short term volumes and lost sight of brand reputation in the process.

 

No. I was just trying to point out that this discussion is hardly within the realm of econ 101. I have studied economics in great length and the reality of these markets is more nuanced than it being general knowledge that X or Y company would be better or worse because of the status of the nation-state in which it is owned.

But I wasn't trying to focus on it in the terms of economic theory since that would be way to general for this discussion.

 

my problem is different ,because after i opened it to clean by hand and closed it just bip sound only no open skreen,type is ibm tinkpad laptop verssion 2002 ,windowxp,iii,T20,740...or?mghz,what should i try...
my "[email protected]"

 

dinchpop, open a dedicated thread. and work on grammar, or at least on sentence structure. and also, describe the beep sound (there are long and short repeating beep sounds). also, try to put the dirt back in . kidding. it could be that you didn't reinsert the memory module correctly, check that first.

 

Very original, but what does it mean?
Oh really (why) my god holy z... or something?

 

Price erosion determine build quality. While everyone welcomes price reductions, the manufacturer has to cut quality to keep up margins. There are brands that keep quality standards by charging premium prices other like Lenovo chose not to.

 

OMG you need to read about the Windows Me crashing issue. After owning it with that problem, and many other QC issues, I would reject a FREE Microsoft product if it meant I had to use it everyday. The stress and pain it inflicted makes it hard to be rational about ANY of Microsoft's products. They all suck eggs in my book.

 

GREAT POST!!!

 

You need to also look at market segmentation. PC OEM margins are quite slim as it is a sort of a race to the bottom. With that in mind the Thinkpads are NOT laptops for the mass consumer. Lenovo has their other non-thinkpad lines more tailored for that.

But as you mentioned there is also the premium crowd. Just has to do with various price discrimination to try and capture the various markets. The business laptop market has heated up quite a bit with strong offerings from all the main OEMs so it isn't so much purely Lenovo's individual strategy as it takes the current market into account.

 

Yes i feel it's overblown as well, it is true the quality has gone down, but not by much.

Thick screen bezel-come on, now i just know your looking for things to about.. the off center screen bezel is barely noticeable, NOBODY cares about the off center screens.. it does not affect the laptop ergonomically or otherwise. I've never heard of a professional business canceling orders for laptops because of cosmetic details as you mentioned. If they do, well, that's what the showy MacBook's are for. How is something crap just because YOU don't like it? Good grief, and a touchpad lagging has little to do with the physical build.. you can easily adjust it. In fact.. to disprove one of your points, there were most likely more complaints about the T4x series than there was about the T6x series, although few. Plasticy? Well yup... that's what the enclosure is made of, what did you think it was made of? The magnesium chassis makes sure the rigidity is still there.

 

I think by the same token, its also just your own opinion that the issues raised are actually nonissues. However, if they were raised then they should probably address it.

Styling issues aside they seem to be having some genuine problems with build quality issues like keyboard and loose parts etc which definately should be solved IMO. Honestly though, the non-centered screen is kinda silly. Its just one little thing that will tick and turn people off. If more people like centered screen over non-centered, then it should be centered. Personally I am not aware of anyone who actually PREFERS non-centered screens. Most of the pro-t61/t400-screen users mostly state they are indifferent to it. I do however know many people who do actually prefer centered screens and dispise the non-centered variant. Its just like how I can imagine the majority of peope prefer their touchpad to be in the center bottom closest to the user area, and not on say the top right hand corner away from user and close to the screen.

 

I'm a bit worried about ThinkPad quality at the moment, market analasyst's really thought that Lenovo needed people to take Lenovo ThinkPads for Lenovo, not IBM, so Lenovo would keep bar high. Lenovo had a 5 year deal as of 2005 that they could still use the IBM moniker on ThinkPads produced within that time period. Basically, Lenovo rented out IBM branding for 5 years and rented out a company with very potent brand recognition worldwide. Now it seems that Lenovo is concentrating more on their native Chinese market that they know best rather than getting people to recognize ThinkPads as a purely Lenovo brand and getting it recognized worldwide.

 

At work, we all use Thinkpads. The T400 looks great and I haven't heard anyone complain about build quality. Just my 2 cents.

 

Moving the touchpad somewhere else actually would affect users so that's not a valid point. Sure there are preferences but if the screen is off-center, it's not a disaster. I have been very satisfied with the quality of my T400. I did accidentally drop a holepuncher on the palm rest. The plastic bottom of the holepuncher struck the palmrest falling from about half a foot above it and there's no mark at all on my laptop.

 

laptops are now considered commodities no less, so any laptop company that can basically get the best specs for the lowest price will win the overall game.

HP have the lion share of the notebook market since they sell 500 dollars full size laptop (al cheapo compaqs) to 3000 dollars full spec Elitebook of some description. Also, they are eroding other companies position in the desktop market too.

Unlike Apple which sells the laptop through product positioning and brand images, HP, Dell and Lenovo sell most of their laptop based on the reasoning of rational consumer behaviours, which is why there is also little marketing....

So margins for these companies are extremely tight, so much of the internal components of these laptops are pretty much the same, probably are made by the same secondary manufacturers including the motherboard.

Unless people are willing to fork out the full price for a decent laptop, much of the laptop industry is going the way of desktops from the demise of IBM compatibles.

IBM was smart to sell the profit poor computer business divisions, and focus instead on servers, supercomputers and business support services.

 

I think here's the rub:

Thinkpads used to be the Cadillac of the industry. But they were also very expensive. Over the years, other vendors dropped prices, and finally, post the sale to Lenovo, Thinkpads went down as well.

Now, Thinkpad T series (what I would consider "smart" consumer level/business level) are as cheap or cheaper as some "avg" consumer laptops from HP/Dell others), as well as corresponding "business" laptops.

Obviously, this comes with a price. The materials are better than some, but let's face it, these are laptops - plastic wrapped circuit boards. So the quality dips. But when the low end is $700 and the high end is $1400, the quality is appropriate.

Dollar for dollar, Thinkpads are a great deal. (T series; I can't speak to the other "lower" one, although I had IdeaPad once and it was fine).

They've always been behind the ball on drivers, but that's par for the course with most vendors.

Service is still decent, although you need to get the onsite warranty (just like with Dell). Depot service is the pits and has dropped off over the years. True with all other manufacturers. The good news is the onsite prices are way lower ($30/yr), so it's almost a no-brainer if staying up and running is important - I can't be without my laptop for 2 weeks; maybe someone else can.

I have had dozens of laptops over the years, so I think I can make a fair comparisons across a lot of brands. (pro-sumer/business use, I am leaving hardcore gaming, specialize stuff out of this, and looks/style, as they are a personal preference).

The Thinkpad is still the king. I got a maxed out T400 for $1300, and I still think I got a fantastic bargain. It's a very well-designed laptop. And yes, I even had a test of the liquid on the device and it draining out the bottom, and it worked as advertised. Right there, head and shoulders above everything else.

Dell quality has waxed and waned - as long as you had an on-site warranty, you were fine, as it minimized issues. I had an older D600 series in which they replaced everything. But the later D800 series was very solid, with only a few issues. They do make a very serviceable machine, and provide that info to customers. As much as there are Dell bashers, I think they are good laptops (at the Latitude level, which is their Thinkpad level). The materials are a bit cheaper, and the designs are not as good, but they do a decent bang for the buck.

HP made some great laptop a few years back, but has really fallen off. The business laptops are overpriced, and the consumers ones have really fallen off. Support is the worst of the big vendors. I used to be a big HP fan (they were cheap and good), but after many poor experiences, I'm done with them for now. Basically, now that Thinkpads are the same price as HP consumer level laptops, why would I go HP?

Then there are all the ASUS, Acer, Sony, etc. I pass on all of them. I used to like Sony a lot (yes, price premium), but the design/screen quality won out. And they made a laptop a few year back which put the Macbook and X300 to shame (Anyone remember the X505? Tell me why there isn't a netbook/subnotebook like that out now? I loved that little sucker). But alas, they made a shift toward non-user serviceable machine, and they are fragile and needed to be treated gingerly.

ASUS - I know some people rave about these, but I find them to be poorly designed. The quality is cheap, but then again so are the prices, so I don't think that it's a knock against them.

Toshiba - Don't get me started. The low-power USB ports a few year back were a non-starter, and the quality is mixed. However, there are a couple gems I've seen from them over the years. A little bulky for me.

Fujitsu - Similar to Toshiba in quality. Overpriced.

I could go on, but you get the point. The bottom line is laptops are basically a commodity items, and the pricing has fallen accordingly. The main thing these companies differentiate themselves is on service. That's where Lenovo and Dell are doing well (although I sense Dell has fallen off lately).

Anyway, just my .02