W510 Build Quality

This was a reply to something I said, which was not quoted properly.

From all I've gathered here, the fit and finish is inferior to ThinkPads of the past. The internal construction is no doubt superior to previous models, as is the performance (naturally). The trade-offs make it difficult to say whether the product as a whole is inferior to some older models, but in regard to the fit and finish it is inferior to some older models.

And with the trade-off I don't think they're overcharging. But cost isn't as much a concern as the package. As I said before, I would gladly pay more for an all-around superior product, and I would not expect Lenovo to improve the fit and finish without tacking more to the price-tag.

 

That's largely the case because ThinkPads are not as much of a commodity as they once were, so there are more sales and rebates, etc.

If I do end up buying a W510 I intend to pay less than the base price, as to me, given my focus, it is worth less (which is not to say that it is worth less to all) - and Lenovo allows for this, unsurprisingly. If the fit and finish matched or exceeded previous select models then I would have purchased the W510 within a week of considering it an option, with or without the added savings.

But yes, I am singling out enthusiasts, not big business. ThinkPads are a business line, and are often bought in bulk, but a hefty portion of the sales come from individuals who recognize the quality and want to adopt it as their primary unit - again, unsurprisingly. It may not sway bulk buyers to provide an improved fit and finish, but I have no doubt it would sway most individuals.

 

No doubt about it. The X301 is in a class of its own. I single it out only for the fit and finish, but that's by no means the only (or primary) factor that influences its cost.

I wouldn't pay $3000+ for the X301 given that it doesn't meet my performance requirements (for a desktop replacement). But many did pay that much, and many will still if/when they release an update.

But with the W510's $1600 starting price I would be willing to pay a few hundred more for a fit and finish comparable to the X301, and I'm sure I'm not alone on that.

 

I can't complain about the glass trackpad. It works very well, and is very durable (not to mention aesthetically pleasing), but I wouldn't want to make it my primary pointing device.

Yeah, there's no doubt about that, but given the countless praise it received for its aesthetics I have to believe that was one of the main reasons for the choice.

 

Who wouldn't want to pay $500 for a $2500 machine ? But that being unrealistic, it usually works out to something in the middle. The X301 isn't inexpensive, and downgrading its fit and finish wouldn't make it all that much less expensive (referring to the original starting price, that is). But the W510 being relatively inexpensive, upgrading its fit and finish wouldn't make it all that much more expensive.

 

Some people are penny pinching, if you add 100 or 200 dollars to the price, then you could drive away a lot of potential non-loyal customers.

 

Yes, but as long as we're guessing I think it's likely that Lenovo setting itself apart with a superior fit and finish would increase loyalty exponentially more in the long term.

Apple doesn't make garbage, yet some might argue that it's worth slightly less than what they ask. Yet people are willing to pay what they ask for [in large part] the build quality and aesthetics that set them apart. As a result, Apple is the largest tech company in the world.

I'm well convinced that if Lenovo set itself apart further with fit and finish, they could be the primary competitor to Apple.

 

coswyn, it seems like you place aesthetics fairly high on your priority list. i would go for the mbp if that is the case. a wonderfully built thinkpad with perfect fit and finish will still not look as sleek as a mac. thinkpads are the definition of function over form, and sometimes you just can't have both. but for people who travel a lot and subject their laptops to abuse, they'll know which brand to go with.

 

I gotta be honest guys. My x201 came today. I don't see anything wrong with the fit and finish.

 

I actually find the aesthetics on the ThinkPad more appealing than on the MacBook Pros. By "fit and finish" I don't mean the sleek, minimalistic appearance, but rather the materials and used on the exterior (primarily the palm rest and keyboard - the latter of which lacks uniformity (which results in quality discrepancies) across models, given the multiple suppliers Lenovo uses) and the way the parts fit together, to further minimize or eliminate flex and creaking. But, again, I prefer the form of a ThinkPad over any other notebook - I would call it discretely bland, but still sleek and professional. They remind me of a cross between a Cadillac, a Stealth Fighter and a cigar box .

There's no doubt I can't have everything I want in this iteration. Lenovo took a step back with fit and finish, but I commend them for their improvements to the internal construction. I just hope the next generation of models doesn't see a trade-off.

 

Approval or disapproval is relative to your frame of reference. Coming from a T43p, the W510 lacks in the fit and finish department compared to it. I'm not sure if you've ever used an X30x, but if you grew to appreciate the fit and finish of it you would probably see a significant difference between it and the X201. However, relative to almost any other make, ThinkPads are top-notch with few competitors.

 

There's significantly more rigidity in this X201 than in the T60, and I don't really remember people complaining about the T60 (and the proof of the laptop is in the falling, something my T60 has done more than once, always onto a hard surface, always from a great distance - I'm also a person who considers it normal use to lift the laptop by one corner of the screen and when putting it on a put one side down and let the other drop).

 

marlinspike you aren't looking hard enough!

The x series have a smaller chassis too so that helps. Just enjoy your x201 .

 

The X20x is still a beaut. Not to take this too far off topic, but it would be nice to see a model with the relative thickness of the X20x, and the relative size and fit and finish of the X30x, with the performance of the X201s and room for discrete graphics. A higher quality LCD (better viewing angles) would be the cherry on top.

 

Oh, don't start with the better screens. We've been discussing that one forever, heh.

 

I agree with you on that. I spent $2400 on W510 and i dont mind to spent few more hundred for beter quality. But Please do not forget the T510, since T510 and W510 share the same chassis and finish. I believe large company order can bring down the price of T510 to $700 US dollars and few more hundreds for better quality which has not much to do with the durablity or performance is too much for the T510 buyer.
Please do not misunderstood, i do like a better built W510.
But i also do believe both W510/T510 and the old IBM thinkpad that you mention will all survive a few feet drop from a table or the refrigerator and they are all spill resistance and all of them are not bulletproof or waterproof and they all last about the same time.
So, what are we comparing here now? A $5000 IBM laptop, A $2000 Lenovo W510, A $ 800 Lenovo T510.

 

Looks like Lenovo somewhat answered the call with the beautiful W510 screens, but unfortunately with a less than ideal [for most] aspect ratio. I know the W500 had a WSXGA/WUXGA option, but I'm not sure of its overall quality (color recognition and viewing angles).

 

You make a valid point, but I don't think it applies to all and Lenovo is certainly no stranger to high-quality fit and finish, even when it increases the cost of an already costly model - the X30x being the case in point. I'm not necessarily suggesting they do away with the W510 as it stands, but to have an option (whether it replaces what's there, or comes in as a separate sub-model) that, as I mentioned before, has the fit and finish of the X301 and otherwise maintains its present characteristics (though, perhaps, by preference, with 16:10 instead of 16:9). You could think of it as a heftier, higher performance, X301 which costs significantly less (even with the fit and finish upgrades).

Yes, the T510 should no doubt be included. And with the stress that I've put my T43p through, having seen it survive for so long I wouldn't be surprised if it is bulletproof - maybe that's a test I'll put it through when I finally retire it

I don't believe the T43p was ever anywhere near $5000 - I purchased mine for approximately $2000, and I remember it being between $2000 and $3000 with upgrades (that was in 2005).

 

Is anybody offering the 4:3 ratio any more? I was under the impression this isn't a laptop maker issue but simply that the screen makers have killed off 4:3 because it's cheaper to make the widescreens.

 

$2000-$3000, 5-8 yrs ago is today's $5000. The price of watermelon is about 28-40 cents per lbs in brooklyn in 2005 and today is about 65-80 cents/lbs. Same goes to bananas.

 

@marlinspike:
Not sure if 4:3 was killed off to save money, but I personally prefer 16:10 (3:2). I would prefer 3:2 as the standard with equal consideration for 4:3 and 16:9 - the latter of which seems to be popular for video. Hopefully they won't continue with that trend and start adopting 1.85:1 and 2.39:1 (both standard in theaters), heh. I'm willing to settle with 16:9 if it's FHD, as with the W501 at T510.

@utopian3:
Yeah, but commodity prices usually stay pretty uniform over time relative to currency. There's no doubt that the exchange is to the benefit of the customer now, but I'm not sure if it's as drastic as you suggest. Regardless, I'm still willing to pay a few hundred dollars more for improved fit and finish on a W510.

 

+1 on 16:10 ratio.   lately i've had a hard time going back to my X61s even though it has high res.   4:3 just feels weird.

 

I couldn't care less if the palm rest was made out of cardboard! A lot more important is the outer case and of course performance. If the palm rest has a bit of flex, why would it bother someone?

Hope to get green light on funding before this current coupon offer expires, in a week.

 

Some people pick up their laptops on the front where the palm rest is. Some just like pushing it to see if it makes nosies .

 

Something I learned in Consumer Behaviour today called "surrogate indicator".

"Therefore, many would make an indirect judgment, using the reputation of the brand or the price level to infer quality. An attribute, such as price, used to estimate the level of a different attribute, such as quality, is known as a surrogate indicator. Marketing managers must be aware of the conditions in which consumers use surrogate indicators and the accuracy of these indicators."

 

Interesting. But Thinkpads aren't that expensive any more that one would think 'oh it has to be of superb quality otherwise they wouldn't make it so expensive'.

Of course it still works well for apple, managing to sell $5 MP3 player (probably from foxconn) for $50.

 

Apple's margins aren't THAT high. It is high but not to that extreme .

 

Apple's margin is the highest of all computer companies right now, it is 25% by most account.

 

$5 cost with a $50 selling price is a tad over a 25% margin over cost .

 

cost not only include parts. Marketing, wages, taxes/tariffs are all counted as actual cost.

 

Sorry, direct material cost. We don't have access to direct labor and overhead anyways. And other periodic expenses would be even harder to obtain.